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Rinty · Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: Alex Neils Hostile Attack

I cannot believe that Alex Neil chose the interesting development of the talks of coalition between the SGP and SNP to launch a ridiculous attack on the SSP.

Neil was a key player in establishing the Independence Convention when the SNP leadership were not listening. For him now to say that no-one would want to work with us is outrageous. His belief that the SSP will disappear from parliament after 2007 is nothing more than wishful thinking.

All evidence shows that the Greens are far more likely to lose seats than the SSP.

The SNP failed to take the same line as the Greens and SSP in the recent debate in parliament about torture flights, deciding inexplicably to abstain from voting against the Labour/Tory alliance on this issue. Greens and SNP were unanimous on voting to punish SSP staff for the actions of the MSPs they work for, and it now looks likely that the SNP are not going to support Tommy Sheridans bill to scrap the council tax even though it is SNP policy.

Neils comments show one thing in my opinion. That his perception that the Greens are growing and the SSP are falling is what makes him think the coalition is a good idea. I believe he is mistaken in this belief and think that he should welcome the fact that he has six socialist MSPs who support many SNP motions and who agree with the SNP on their stance against nuclear weapons, nuclear power and many other issues.

The fact that it is Neil, considered to be on the left of the SNP and in the past the most likely SNP MSP to listen to the SSP, who has made this attack confirms that hostility to the SSP from the SNP is universal. This could lead to the SSP membership forcing their leaders out of a convention that seems to be increasingly filled with people hostile to the SSPs vision of an independent Socialist republic.

The Greens may be making goog headway among political types and in the pages of the Herald but they have little or no grass roots activity and had a far worse result than the SSP at the only holyrood byelection that we have had.

The press and the mainstream parties seem to have accepted the idea that the SSP vote will fall and the SGP rise in 2007. I can see little or no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

It could be that the SSP vote will fall but the Greens vote is equally or even more precarious.

By all means Alex, go ahead and criticise SSP policy, but to say "Who wants to work with the SSP anyway" is stupid at this time of the pro-independence parties attempting to work together as a block to fight for independence.

He may just get a fright when the Greens actually come to discuss this. There is no chance of the SGP supporting the SNP on many of their policies (especially low business tax, road and airport building) and most Greens would rather be in a coalition with Labour than the SNP.

Katie1984 · No Longer a Wean Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 89

The SSP vote is crumbling all over Scotland and it is likely that the SSP will lose most if not all of their seats in 2007 which is wot they get for ditching Tommy Sheridan.

As for this nonsense about punishing SSP staff - the Trots who took part in disrupting Parliament did so knowing that it was not a matter for the Scottish Parliament, it was a matter for the Police and Perth & Kinross District Council. Whilst the Trots were making twits of themselves John Swinney and Roseanna Cunningham were liaising between these two bodies and managed to get the march reinstated - this was far more worthy than the gesture politics of the Trots.

SLG · Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:

If the quotes are accurate, then this is IMO a total misjudgment by Alex and I am very surprised by it. I wonder is there is an element of press manipulation in order to increase disharmony between the SNP and SSP. I had hoped that after the launch of the Independence Convention that the three Scottish parties would develop more of a relationship, but this is not the way to go about it.

As for the perception of a growing SGP and declining SSP... I've said before that I think the demise of the SSP is very much overexaggerated. They do have an activist base which the SGP don't have. But grass-roots activism is only one means to pick up votes. As you say, Rinty, the SGP are not short of positive press, they have populist appeal and the three big parties are not attacking them as they try and keep them sweet for a coalition. On the other hand the SSP have at national level had a terrible press ever since the Sheridan affair (a lot of it deserved IMO). I think the SGP vote will at the very worst stay static. They had no activists the last time round either, and a much higher (and still positive) national profile now. I really couldn't say about the SSP vote, but I don't expect it to rise or fall by too much.

Rinty · Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: m

Rinty · Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: b

SLG,

I think it was the press coverage of the Sheridan resignation and the constant insinuation of in-fighting in the press that led to the perception of Tommys new role in the party being a disaster. Perhaps now a year later that Tommy is still a leading figure in the SSP people might start to see that we obviously didn't dump him and we will not be without Tommy at the next election as was suggested. We have had stories about him linking with Respect and other mischievous rumours all of which have ignored the fact that he resigned from one aspect of his role in the party and still plays a leading role in the party.

There were people when I canvassed in the 2005 elections who thought we had sacked Tommy and expelled him from the party, rather than him now playing a key role in parliament, on our national executive, parliament committees and still being in the party after resigning from one role in the party.

What worries me about Neils comments is that he was a reasonable bridge between the two parties. His attack following the potential coalition with the Greens makes me think that he was just keeping us on board until a deal with the Greens could be done.

The real test will come with the council tax bill. There is no reasonable excuse for the SNP not to back it but my information is that the SNP MSPs have been told to abstain or vote against it. Neils attack coupled with this rumour make me worry about the Convention. It is one thing to put these things to one side for the sake of the convention but that will be difficult if the SSP are facing outright hostility.

In my mind the coalition with the greens will be informal and the same arrangement could easily be done with the SSP. Not an actual coalition executive rather a block of MSPs who support a general programme but go their own ways on other issues. This would not be a disaster for the SNP as the things the Greens and SSP disagree with the SNP on such as tax and road building would be supported by the other parties in Holyrood.

SLG · Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject:

That was my point, whether it reflect reality or not, the public perception is of a party in decline. Due to the lack of positive media coverage, I don't think that will change until the 2007 polls, if the SSP vote holds up.

I too will be watching how my party deal with the council tax bill. I don't really see the point in speculating too much at this point though.

The IC is a non-party political movement. It's aims are different from any executive forming coalition. These talks between the SNP and SGP make sense and follow on from similar talks between the SGP and the Lib-dems. I would have thought it would be common sense for the SNP to want to talk to the SSP on this basis. However, even if they don't want to get involved in talks at this level, statements like that made by Neil can only disrupt the IC.

Rinty · Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: b

I totally agree. The idea of talking to the SSP is not necessary however as the SSP have made it clear that the will not enter into formal coalition with any party.

The SNP know this and also know that the SSP will support a bid by the SNP to hold a minority govt and will support the budget of an SNP led coalition to allow them to function as an executive. We dont really need talks outside of the IC, in my opinion, but that confuses me more as Neil did not need to mention the SSP, could expect the SSP support on many things (including an SGP/SNP coalition). He also made it look like he was saying that the SNP have snubbed the SSP when in fact there was nothing to snub as the relationship between the parties is clear.

I think the public perception will have changed by 2007 when people realise that they have seen Tommy on TV as often as before and that he hasn't gone away and still plays a major role in the party.

What interest me most about this coming election is the possibility that the SNP will get a free run in FPTP seats as the sole representative of the pro-independence parties. Surely it would benefit Neil and his party to see the SGP and SSP vote at least hold up or improve to have any chance of forming an execeutive.

As a socialist I am used to a hostile press but I do think that the last year has seen a concerted effort to paint a picture of us being a "busted flush" without any evidence to back it up other than a huge dollop of wishful thinking.

The Herald ran a ridiculous story on Sunday attempting to turn an administrative accounting issue into a "mystery" with " missing money". The writer was obviously aware what the accounting issue was but avoided telling the truth in favour of inuendo.

The belief that the SSP vote will collapse seems to me to be based on the idea that if you keep saying it over and over it will become true.

SLG · Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject:

I hope that the SSP do use Sheridan as much as possible. I like Fox, and think he is an excellent speaker, however there is a very strong prejudice against him.

I read the Sunday Herald article. Definitely implying that a pay-off was made. The SSP are a threat to SNP votes, but are much more of a long term threat to Labour. So much of our media is linked to the Labour party.

Rinty · Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: y

Rinty · Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: m

Katie1984 · No Longer a Wean Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 89

You can say wot u like but the SSP is going nowhere and the General Election Results prove it whever u like them or or not!

I was at the G8 day and the 'speech' by Carolyn Leckie was quite frankly cringeworthy. On what was supposed to be a day for Africa she ranted and shreiked about your party and the apparent 'injustice' they were suffering as a result of their own stupidity. They were also reduced to begging money from bemused protestors in order to pay their own salaries! Surprisngly this did not raise a lot of money!

This has all gone down in Scottish Political Lore so no much how the Trots protest (and if the cap fits wear it you trots! cos that is wot u are!) it is true so live with it, deal with it and eventually get over it it!!!!

Rinty · Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: m

SLG · Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: m

Abieuan · Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject: