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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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 Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: BNP, fascists or what? |
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Watching the BBC provocked TV circus as the police sneak NG into their studios, I thought I'd see why they're hated so.
The BNP’s policy is to: | Quote: |
- Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
- Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
- Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases;
- Reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain.
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From their site.
I don't give a monkey's about the BNP but everyone is calling them fascists but their immigration policy while tough is not fascism as far as I can see.
I'm not defending them, I'm just curious about why they're called fascists when the policies above don't appear fascist.
Having read their other policies on Health, economy etc (their policies on Northern Ireland are insane). I suspect their message will appeal to many who will leave Labour in droves at the next election.
I still don't read fascism on their website but their policies do reflect solutions to what many average people find irritating problems in their lives. Those who are disenfranchised by Tory and Labour might well find them appealing...
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mairead
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4295
Location: Argyll, Alba
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Their White Supremacy attitude is fascist as far as I am concerned and they have a bunch of thugs in the leadership. Even Griffin has convictions as far as I am led to believe.
They may have toned down vocally in the past few years, and may be wearing nicer suits, but they are the same racist bigots that they always been.
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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It'll be intersting to hear the viewing figures for tonight's programme ... I'll need to watch it on i-player or preferabley youtube if I can.
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| It has been suggested that support for the BNP is growing, but is that true? They managed to get a couple of MEPs elected at the Euro elections, but without actually getting any more votes than they'd had before. What enabled them to make this "breakthrough" was supporters of other parties, particularly the Labour Party, staying at home. You can blame politicians failing to provide people with hope, while at the same time claiming ludicrous expenses and other benefits for themselves, for that. Appearing on Question Time will probably give the BNP a bit of a boost for a time, but, from details about the party that have leaked out, it looks like they have a very high turnover of membership. It seems that, even when people join, the BNP has a big problem over getting them to renew membership for a second year. We certainly shouldn't be complacent, but neither should we give the BNP a boost by exaggerating. Compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure. Even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: BNP, fascists or what? |
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| Stevie wrote: | Watching the BBC provocked TV circus as the police sneak NG into their studios, I thought I'd see why they're hated so.
The BNP’s policy is to: | Quote: |
- Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
- Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
- Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases;
- Reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain.
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From their site.
I don't give a monkey's about the BNP but everyone is calling them fascists but their immigration policy while tough is not fascism as far as I can see.
I'm not defending them, I'm just curious about why they're called fascists when the policies above don't appear fascist.
Having read their other policies on Health, economy etc (their policies on Northern Ireland are insane). I suspect their message will appeal to many who will leave Labour in droves at the next election.
I still don't read fascism on their website but their policies do reflect solutions to what many average people find irritating problems in their lives. Those who are disenfranchised by Tory and Labour might well find them appealing... |
I don't read fascim into their policies either but I did read it into the behaviour of some of today's bnp protesters. That was a display of fascist tendencies that we can do without. Don't those clowns realise that acting to stifle political opposition is exactly what fascism is all about? |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure. Even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway. |
The BNP have long missed the boat for any hope of political dominance in the UK. The ebb and flow of its membership doesn't matter. What does matter is that what they are doing right now is firing the debate on issues comfortably glossed over/ignored by the central parties in the last decade, their ignorance of which has lent weight to the bnp. What I find still more surprising is that it's still the shock/horror bnp uprising that is the focus.. yet seemingly little regard to the foundation of it, which lies squarely in the hands of the mainstream parties policies. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: BNP, fascists or what? |
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Stevie tells us that, according to their website, the BNP’s policy is to: | Quote: | | - Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally |
This figure of two million is a deliberate lie. The number of illegal immigrants is several thousand, but is not numbered in millions. Basically, the BNP wants people to believe that any furrin-lookin folk they see, particularly if they are the wrong colour, must be "illegal". This is encitement to racial violence. | Quote: | | - Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British |
The numbers involved here are small, but, again, this isn't intended as a practical policy, but as an encitement to racial violence | Quote: | | - Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate |
In other words, if we don't like the look of you, we'll take your citizenship away. Of course there would be an automatic assumption that anybody of the wrong colour or who didn't fit in some other way must be a citizen "inappropriately". And again, there is a sub-text of incitement to racial violence. | Quote: | | - Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently |
And of course BNP supporters are invited to encourage those of foreign descent to wish to leave | Quote: | | - Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases |
HOW?
Just exactly how, physically, do you stop ALL immigration, "except for exceptional cases" (and you have to stop them as well, at least initially, in order to decide whether they are an exceptional case or not) without creating the huge bureaucratic apparatus of a fascist police state?
Oh, wait a minute............
Last edited by Dave Coull on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: BNP, fascists or what? |
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| Fidget wrote: | | I don't read fascim into their policies either but I did read it into the behaviour of some of today's bnp protesters. That was a display of fascist tendencies that we can do without. Don't those clowns realise that acting to stifle political opposition is exactly what fascism is all about? |
I'm inclined to agree with this, although it doesn't make the BNP any less nasty for it.
I do wonder if the fascist label arises from the notion that, in the unlikely event, of them achieving any real power they would transpire to be fascist in nature and seek to supress opposition, particularly where this eminated from ethnic minority groups.
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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In relation to the 'illegal immigrant' bit referredto above I seem to recall data that suggested the majority of those who were working here illegally were actually white australian/new zealand/american and were students or on gap years or some such.
It's just harder to spot the illegal who looks just like you.
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Lord Pitsligo
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 709
Location: Perthshire
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: BNP, fascists or what? |
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- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
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So if you're sick of this country and want out and are white, the BNP will discriminate against you?!?
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | In relation to the 'illegal immigrant' bit referredto above I seem to recall data that suggested the majority of those who were working here illegally were actually white australian/new zealand/american and were students or on gap years or some such.
It's just harder to spot the illegal who looks just like you. |
As far as I'm aware, the majority of illegal immigrants here arrive legally and then don't leave, and student VISA's are by far the preferred method, although it was orientals who were cited as the main culprits for that method last time I seen anything about it. I thnk I believe that more over U.S, NZ, OZ whites.. who could just come here on holiday and then stay. No need for any student visa or whatnot.
I'm not sure what the position is with failed asylum seekers who must surely revert to illegal immigrant status if they don't leave? |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: BNP, fascists or what? |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | Watching the BBC provocked TV circus as the police sneak NG into their studios, I thought I'd see why they're hated so.
The BNP’s policy is to: | Quote: |
- Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
- Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
- Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases;
- Reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain.
|
From their site.
I don't give a monkey's about the BNP but everyone is calling them fascists but their immigration policy while tough is not fascism as far as I can see.
I'm not defending them, I'm just curious about why they're called fascists when the policies above don't appear fascist.
Having read their other policies on Health, economy etc (their policies on Northern Ireland are insane). I suspect their message will appeal to many who will leave Labour in droves at the next election.
I still don't read fascism on their website but their policies do reflect solutions to what many average people find irritating problems in their lives. Those who are disenfranchised by Tory and Labour might well find them appealing... |
I don't read fascim into their policies either but I did read it into the behaviour of some of today's bnp protesters. That was a display of fascist tendencies that we can do without. Don't those clowns realise that acting to stifle political opposition is exactly what fascism is all about? |
well said that chap. it's one of those cases where you would quite happily walkp past them kicking f**k out each other in the street.
they actually deserve each other.
one of these 'protester's' was interviewed outside the bbc hq this morning, he actually said that until we had proper freedom of speech in this country, for everyone, it was wrong that nick griffin was being allowed to speak out on question time.
i suspected this clown's comments were edited in by an editor with a sense of humour. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| As I pointed out earlier, compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure; even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway. And having just watched Question Time, I have to say Nick Griffin was pathetic . Time for a new fuehrer? |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | In relation to the 'illegal immigrant' bit referredto above I seem to recall data that suggested the majority of those who were working here illegally were actually white australian/new zealand/american and were students or on gap years or some such.
It's just harder to spot the illegal who looks just like you. |
As far as I'm aware, the majority of illegal immigrants here arrive legally and then don't leave, and student VISA's are by far the preferred method, although it was orientals who were cited as the main culprits for that method last time I seen anything about it. I thnk I believe that more over U.S, NZ, OZ whites.. who could just come here on holiday and then stay. No need for any student visa or whatnot.
I'm not sure what the position is with failed asylum seekers who must surely revert to illegal immigrant status if they don't leave? |
Loads of programmes on TV following the customs and immigration authorities who detain illegal immigrants and then have to let them go because they either don't have documents to be sent back or have to release them due to the lack of facilities and ask them to report at a police station and they are never seen again. |
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jamesieboy
Helping with the Count
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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If you do some research into fascism and what it actually is then you will find that is a complex, multi-faceted creature. As is socialism/communism.
It has reared its head in a number of countries, most of them strangely enough in mediterranean/latin locations (Croatia/Spain/Italy/Chile/Brazil).
The main exception is obviously Germany.
In each place it has manifested itself in different ways and taken different characteristics, but one thing it generally believes in is the one-party state.
And as far as I can see from the press and its web-site the BNP comes out firmly against the one-party state.
Nick Griiffin was slaughtered tonight on QT but some very good points were made on Andrew Neill's programme (another odious slug) which followed it.
Diane Abbott and Michael Portillo both made the point that this 'poor chap'
was slaughtered by a multicultural, metropolitan elite and there would have been a lot of sympathy for him in the deprived areas of the West Midlands/Lancashire/Yorkshire/North East etc etc.
The programme was made by a metropolitan elite, for a metropolitan elite and was weighted heavily towards that audience.
And with unemployment rapidly approaching 3 million many people out there in the sticks would have noticed that and viewed it with great disdain. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| jamesieboy wrote: | | this 'poor chap' was slaughtered by a multicultural, metropolitan elite and there would have been a lot of sympathy for him in the deprived areas of the West Midlands/Lancashire/Yorkshire/North East etc |
Then it should be pointed out to people in these deprived areas that this "poor chap" comes from a very wealthy background with a family history of seeking to lead the masses, who are, of course, considered to be too dumb to lead themselves. Nick's grandfather was associated with Sir Oswald Mosley's British Union of Facists. Nick's father, prominent in the local Tory Party but later expelled from it for being too extreme, took young Nick to a National Front meeting at age 15. Young Nick attended a very expensive private school, and then went on to Cambridge University, where he founded the Young National Front Students. He became National Organiser of the NF in 1978. Mind you, he couldn't have been too successful at nationally organising, because, with Nick Griffin as National Organiser, the National Front lost members, and then split into several small groupings in the 1980s. One of these groups was the BNP. There were no major ideological differences between the BNP and the NF. As is usual with extreme right wing politics, the differences were mostly about who got to be the Fuehrer. Griffin joined the BNP in 1995, and ousted its then leader four years later.
This man who complains about a "metropolitan elite" is a Home Counties private school, Cambridge, lawyer/businessman, and professional politician. He is also (of course) in favour of a Strong Centralised Government. In London. |
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Where was the show recorded? London? Well, the BNP have an elected member on the London Assembly so cries that the programme should have been recorded elsewhere with a different audience are largely disengenuous.
It seems that he is now to make a formal complaint about the programme, presumabely because he didn't get treated as pleasantly as he had hoped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm
I've not seen the whole programme yet, however, from what I have seen I've seen other politicians being treated worse. He can't hack it because he's ill-educated and delusuional.
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | he's ill-educated |
Home Counties expensive private boarding school and University of Cambridge, "ill-educated"? In one sense, I have to agree that such an education can have some important things missing, but in no way was he "deprived" educationally or otherwise.
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