Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

democracyscotland · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 20 Sep 2008 Posts: 3

Democracy Scotland;

www.democracyscotland.co.nr

The Campaign for a Referendum on Scotland's Constitutional Future...

Ever since the creation of the Scottish Parliament, there have been calls for more powers for the parliament, and/or a referendum on Scotland's future regarding the Union and the possibility of Independence.

I don't want to get into a 'What's better?' debate over the Union or Independence, as this is covered extensively elsewhere, this is simply a campaign for a referendum on the issue, no matter your political persuasion. It has been shown on numerous occasions that a large majority of the Scottish people want a chance to vote on this issue, but the political parties feel the need to decide this very important issue for us!

THE PLAN - To get a group of like-minded individuals (Pro-Referendum) to act as a loosely-connected group through the use of this blog to bring attention to the campaign.

I know most of the people in Scotland want a chance to vote on this issue, and this campaign hopes to draw attention to that. I don't plan to 'take charge' of any of this, I'm simply going to put this out there and see what happens, in the hope it builds from the ground upwards. All of the 'details' here are changeable by anyone who has an opinion, be it from the amount of people involved, the type of involvement, to how the campaign itself is organised.

I am a frustrated ex-Labour party member, but am fed up with them (political parties) treating us (the people of Scotland) like fools who cannot make a decision for ourselves.

Despite the recent Wendy Alexander debacle, Labour as a whole still seem to point-blank refuse to support a referendum, as do the Lib Dems (which is amazing, given it seems neither Liberal nor Democratic to do so!) and the Conservatives are more tightly-lipped on the issue. Of the MSPs in Holyrood, only those in the SNP and the Green party support a referendum (and possibly Margo MacDonald), but they together make up an minority, and alone cannot get the legislation through parliament.

I am unsure at this moment in time as to how I would vote in a referendum, but what I do know is this; the people of Scotland want and deserve a chance to do so.

It is very difficult to get polling data on the particular area that I am interested in, which is the % of the population who want a referendum. I would be grateful if others could point me in the direction of data regarding this.

The only poll data I can find on this issue is from Independence First, which gives details of the ICM polls from the late 1990s. In this instance, whether a majority support Independence or the current devolution arrangement is irrelevant, the figure I'm interested in is the 'For a Referendum' column. This shows that 5 polls asked the question of the respondent of whether they think there should be a referendum held on this issue. The results of the 5 separate polls, held between June 1998 and February 1999, were as follows (FOR a referendum); 69%, 79%, 69%, 74% and 74%. The average of these polls show that 73% of respondents believe there SHOULD be a referendum held on Scotland's constitutional future.

This is why attention needs to be drawn to this democratic deficit...

HOW TO ACHIEVE THIS? - To collectively act in ways which require very little time or effort, but which catches media attention in a 'Flash Mob' style. For example, getting a large group of people to put a large 'X' on a blank piece of paper, adding the web address to it (http://www.democracyscotland.co.nr), then posting it to the same person/address (First Minister/Labour Leader?) on the same date. Each campaign should raise the profile of the campaign and thus help it grow exponentially. 2 minutes of your time at home, every couple of months is all I'm asking for in return. 'Stage 1' will be acted upon once 50 'pledges' have signed up to the campaign. If we get more than much more than 50, great, by all means keep adding your respective names to the list once the magical number of 50 has been breached.

WHAT YOU NEED TO DO - Pledge to join the campaign, by CLICKING HERE and adding you name to the list (a pseudonym if you so wish), using the format; '1. name1', '2. name2', '3. name3' and so on, so each new person adding to the list is keeping a running tally of the total involved. Keep checking the site every few days to see whether we have breached the 'Stage 1' number, and we'll take it from there!

Spreading the word is the oxygen of any campaign, and we need YOUR help to do so. So, if you, like most people in Scotland, are 'Pro-Referendum' and have a blog or website, a mention of the campaign and/or a link to the site would be much appreciated. If not, then just tell people you know via email or good old-fashioned word of mouth!

Thanks in advance,

DS

P.S. CLICK HERE to pledge to join the campaign!

_________________
Join the 'Democracy Scotland' campaign for a referendum! See - http://www.democracyscotland.co.nr

Holebender · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject:

Have you considered helping out the Scottish Independence Convention?

http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Red Justice · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject:

I have put a link to Democracy Scotland up on my weblog.

I think you could combine your campaign with also street or community based activity.

The other campaigns for an independence referendum have become a bit dull. Perhaps due to nationalist involvement many are waiting on the SNP to deliver a bill after 2010.

However I do also recommend support for the Scottish Independence Convention.
_________________
“For socialists, independence is not about the colour or type of flag flying on our public buildings. It is about creating a better society. It is about putting people before profit"
Tommy Sheridan
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

The expression "The Campaign for a Referendum on Scotland's Constitutional Future" is ambiguous.

I left Independence First over a year ago, but, when we first formed it, the full name of the group was "Independence First: the campaign for a referendum on independence for Scotland".

That made it clear what kind of a referendum was being campaigned for, one in which the electorate of Scotland could vote for or against independence.

It is still the case that that is the kind of referendum which is needed. There is no need for a referendum on "more powers" for the Scottish Parliament. Since a rather vague promise of "more powers" is the position of all of the parties which are opposed to independence, simply voting against independence would, in effect, be a vote for whatever "more powers" proposals eventually come out of the Calman Commission supported by these parties.

But the way that this "Democracy Scotland" statement is worded leaves the door wide open for a pointless and completely meaningless referendum on "more powers". Pointless, because that is what is going to happen anyway, if we don't have actual independence. Completely meaningless, because practically everybody (apart from Aventinian and a few others of that ilk) is in favour of "more powers" for the Scottish Parliament anyway. Alex Salmond is in favour of "more powers" for the Scottish Parliament. He would prefer independence, but, short of that, of course he is in favour of "more powers".

Red Justice wrote "The other campaigns for an independence referendum have become a bit dull"

That is no reason for backing something so vague, those dull colours Gray and Broon may even decide it is acceptable to them as a way of AVOIDING a referendum on independence.

Red Justice says "However I do also recommend support for the Scottish Independence Convention".

As it so happens, five of us were campaigning for support for the Scottish Independence Convention in Dundee today, distributing many hundreds of leaflets at the Dundee University Freshers Fair. Well, not exactly "leaflets", what we were distributing were these very colourfull little cards designed by Chicmac promoting the SIC's online petition. While it can be difficult to get folk to stop and sign a petition, if they stick these cards in their pockets, they are much more likely to sign the on-line petition later. And of course we did know for certain that every person at that Freshers Fair had access to the internet. The cards are also designed to be suitable for putting on notice boards, of which there are plenty at the university.

But yes, I agree that the SIC can seem a bit dull sometimes, and yes, I do think that something else is needed. But not something so vague as to be practically meaningless.

Red Justice · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull wrote:

"That is no reason for backing something so vague, those dull colours Gray and Broon may even decide it is acceptable to them as a way of AVOIDING a referendum on independence."

Not sure what you mean by the above comment. The Democracy Scotland iniative appears to be supporting the idea of a referendum. I can only imagine the author supports the inclusion of status quo, more powers and also independence on the ballot paper.

And don't take my words and twist what I say!

I meant all the campaigns for an independence referendum are a bit dull at present. What I mean little is happening.

I support SIC initiative but personally not the other ones.

Democracy Scotland should be given a chance.

Your activity with your nationalist friends is clearly not publicised except by yourself on this forum, after the event. You know I live in Dundee but it seems your SIC activity is limited to your friends in the nationalist clique. Or was it your Determination small group.

The desire for independence or more powers will be decided by the Scottish people and not yourself or a handful of nationlists or rabid cybernats.

That hopefully, will be by way of a multi-option referendum that gives a democratic mandate to the Scottish people when they decide, whether you or the Nats accept the result or not.
_________________
“For socialists, independence is not about the colour or type of flag flying on our public buildings. It is about creating a better society. It is about putting people before profit"
Tommy Sheridan
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Red Justice wrote "The other campaigns for an independence referendum have become a bit dull"

I commented "That is no reason for backing something so vague, those dull colours Gray and Broon may even decide it is acceptable to them as a way of AVOIDING a referendum on independence".

Red Justice says "Not sure what you mean by the above comment."

I mean that there is a big difference between "campaign for a referendum on independence for Scotland" and "Campaign for a Referendum on Scotland's Constitutional Future", which is how this "Democracy Scotland" describes itself. "Referendum on Scotland's Future" is so vague, it leaves the door wide open for a pointless and meaningless referendum on "more powers", which might suit those dull colours Gray and Broon.

"I can only imagine the author supports the inclusion of more powers and independence on the ballot paper."

There is no need to put "more powers" on the referendum paper, for the reasons I have already given. Since that is the default position supported by all of the political parties, that is what would happen anyway if independence is rejected, so including this vague "option" is just a distraction from the real issue, which is independence, yes or no?

"You know I live in Dundee but it seems your SIC activity is limited to your friends in the nationalist clique".

This activity was arranged at very short notice, just yesterday in fact, and there was no need for a large number of people to take part, there were enough of us to do what we set out to do. However, as it happens, one of the folk who was asked if she wanted to take part is a woman who deliberately avoids anything which she thinks you might be at. And no, she is not a nationalist.

I had an interesting conversation with the comrades on the Solidarity stall at the Freshers Fair. They not only took our leaflets but agreed to put a bundle of them on the Solidarity stall.

"The campaign for independence or more powers will be decided by the Scottish people"

Of course.

"and not yourself"

Correction.

The campaign for independence or more powers will be decided by the Scottish people including myself. I will have one vote, exactly the same as everybody else.

"That hopefully will be by way of a multi-option referndum"

Sounds like a complete fudge, courtesy of Gray and Broon Justice.

Red Justice · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject:

You are an Internet stalker Coull and arrogant with it.

A multi-option referendum is even supported by the SNP leadersip and the various options will likely be on the ballot paper for an independence referendum.

It seems your SIC activity is limited to your clique and exludes me but I will join the organisation nationally nonetheless.

There will be no fudge. I would rather have more powers such as fiscal powers which will happen for the Scottish parliament as an option as well as independence.

Let the Scottish people decide on the matter.
_________________
“For socialists, independence is not about the colour or type of flag flying on our public buildings. It is about creating a better society. It is about putting people before profit"
Tommy Sheridan
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com

Red Justice · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull and his clique have shown their undemocratic practices by choosing who and who is not invited to attend their events.

You are a libality to any democratic movement Mr Coull.

I am disappointed that sectarian elements can exist under any SIC banner.

I still support SIC but not you or your cliques.
_________________
“For socialists, independence is not about the colour or type of flag flying on our public buildings. It is about creating a better society. It is about putting people before profit"
Tommy Sheridan
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Red Justice wrote "You are an Internet stalker Coull"

I'm not the one the cops charged with stalking a woman he'd fallen out with.

I'm just somebody who uses the internet, that's all. I don't "follow" anybody on the internet, I just take part in those forums which are of interest to me. As it so happens, so far as I'm aware, I was on this particular forum before you were. But even if I wasn't, you being on it has nothing at all to do with me being on this forum.

"It seems your SIC activity is limited to your clique"

I'm not actually very involved with the SIC, but I may choose to support some of their activities, if I happen to feel like doing so, and along with people who work well together.

"Let the Scottish people decide"

The way to do this is through a simple, straightforward referendum, independence, yes or no. Anything else would be a fudge.

Red Justice · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject:

The SNP does not support a multi-option referendum.

The preferred format is a straighforward yes/no type question. The SNP is, however, prepared to countenance a multi-option referendum if that turns out to be the only way to get it through the Scottish Parliament.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Red Justice · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject:

Ok thanks Holebender my misunderstanding over a previous Alex Salmond press anouncement that was televised.

This clarifies the SNP position.

My position being I support a referendum on Scottish independence.

I would prefer Scottish independence to be the choice of the Scottish people.

I would accept more (fiscal) powers as an option on a ballot but reckon constitutional change will have to happen with or without a referendum.

My reason for supporting a multi-option referendum is that I fear we could loose a straight yes or no referendum. And this would be seen as a setback for the independence movement.

I prefer independence over the status quo and this can only help the cause of the Scottish Socialist Movement.
_________________
“For socialists, independence is not about the colour or type of flag flying on our public buildings. It is about creating a better society. It is about putting people before profit"
Tommy Sheridan
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Red Justice wrote "My reason for supporting a multi-option referendum is that I fear we could loose a straight yes or no referendum."

If we lose, then we lose.

That's democracy.

The people decide.

It's a chance that has to be taken.

However, having said that, I personally have no fear that we would lose.

My prediction is that a simple, straightforward, independence-yes-or-no type referendum would result in a decisive majority for independence. Not an "only just" majority, but a decisive one.

However, there is only one way to find out if my prediction is right or not, and that is to hold the referendum.

And the sooner the better. Every day that passes is another day too many. Look at what has happened just this week, with Gordon Broon waiving the rules against monopoly mergers, and virtually pushing Lloyds TSB into taking over the Bank of Scotland, a move which is sure to result in a lot of job losses and inconvenience for customers.

There are still many Labour MSPs who are asking what the Scottish Government is waiting for, there are still plenty of them, including their Gray leader, who make "bring it on" noises.

Well, bring it on, I say.

Alex Salmond and co could say that, although they had planned for 2010, the disastrous policies of the British government, such as encouraging that take-over, have created a new situation, and they know the Scottish Labour MSPs are keen for them to bring it on, so that is exactly what they intend to do.

I am certain that such decisiveness would be rewarded with a clear majority for independence.

REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO

carol · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject:

Red Justice · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Red Justice wrote "I support independence but unlike some deluded Nats I am not expecting a land of milk and honey".

Well neither do I, of course. It will be a very long way short of a land of milk and honey, but it's worth campaigning for nevertheless.

"You can join the Nats"

Unlike you, I have never been a member of any political party, and I never will be.

"and celebrate"

Come off it, Larry. I know for certain that there are members of Solidarity, and of other socialist organisations, who will celebrate independence for Scotland. There will even be members of "unionist" parties who will celebrate when the time comes. Plus, of course, loads of people who are not in any party will celebrate. It is just nonsense to try to pretend that only "Nats" will be celebrating on independence day.

carol · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:35 am Post subject:

Slogan or not Dave you're unable to gauge what support there is out there for a referendum now.

Other than string the slogan on internet posts, there is no driving force from Determination to gather support for what you or your organisation demands.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Carol wrote that there is no driving force for "what you or your organisation demands".

Did I mention any organisation?

What I wrote was clearly stated to be from "Dave Coull". It expressed MY opinion, and did not claim to speak on behalf of anybody else. The question to concentrate on is not whether the opinion I expressed has the backing of some group or other, the thing that really matters is, is the opinion I expressed right or not? If you think the opinion I expressed is wrong, then the proper thing to do is to argue openly and honestly against what I actually said, and not against something I didn't say.

"you're unable to gauge what support there is out there"

That's right, I have absolutely no idea what support there might be for moving to an early referendum. I'm not a politician. I'm not a candidate for any kind of office, and I never will be. But regardless of whether it gets taken up or not, it's the right thing to say, it's the only thing for people of principle who support a referendum to say. Doubts and hesitations and "please, please, please, let's wait a few years, we don't want democracy yet, because we're scared of democracy, we're scared we might lose" may not be the kind of thing to inspire confidence amongst the people of Scotland. On the other hand, I am certain that decisiveness and confidence would be rewarded with a clear majority for independence. In any case, my attitude is that, if something is true and right, then proclaiming it to everybody you can reach is the morally right thing to do, regardless of whether or not you think it will get a warm welcome.

Having said that, there are a couple of reasons for guessing that the degree of support for moving to an early referendum might be liable to be increasing. The circumstances have changed. Look at what has happened just this week, with Gordon Broon waiving the rules against monopoly mergers, and virtually pushing Lloyds TSB into taking over the Bank of Scotland, a move which is sure to result in a lot of job losses, and inconvenience for customers. Plus, the global economic crisis is getting worse, and being ruled from London, in this crisis, can make it even worse for Scotland.

In this changed situation, I would guess that some members of the Scottish government are probably thinking about saying well, we had planned for 2010, but the disastrous policies of the British government in mishandling the crisis, so far as Scotland is concerned, have created a new situation, and, the longer we delay, the worse the effects of being governed from London, in the present global economic crisis, are likely to be, and we know Labour MSPs have been keen for us to "bring it on", so, we should put them in the position where they are expected to back doing so.

If anybody is arguing for delay, then do so openly and honestly. Let's hear the arguments for delay. If the argument is, as some have openly stated, "I fear we might lose", then frankly that is a fear of democracy, and hardly a rallying cry which is likely to inspire confidence from the Scottish people.

carol · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:54 am Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Carol suggested I was "saying Determination no longer exists"

Try reading what I actually wrote, rather than making up things that I didn't write.

This is a discussion forum. If, on this discussion forum, I write something signed "Dave Coull", then that is who it is from, and not from any group or organisation. I have put forward some of the arguments against delaying a referendum. I have pointed out how even the events of the past week have changed the situation, weakening the case for delay. I suspect that same thought may have crossed the minds of some members of the Scottish government, even if it hasn't crossed yours. IF you are in favour of delaying a referendum, then argue openly and honestly for delay. State your reasons for being in favour of delay. But if it should turn out that the argument is essentially, as some have openly stated, "I fear we might lose", then, frankly, that is hardly a rallying cry which is likely to inspire confidence from the people of Scotland.