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chicmac
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 202
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 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Have you signed the Independence Referendum Petition yet? |
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Allegedly, Wendy was asked to sign the independence petition but didn't and that was before U-Turn no. 2.
However, even if any shivers recently emerged from hibernation on the rumour that Scottish Labour had finally developed a backbone up which to run only to discover it a false alarm and head back to the cave, I'm sure there must still be some Us as well as many Trues out there who still want to "Bwing it on!". So demand your democratic rights by signing the Scottish Independence Convention referendum petition.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/let-scotland-decide.html
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Scott2006
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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I have a distrust of signing anything online - i'm sure from what we can read in the papers of what electronic surveillance the UK state is to consider introducing, that a copy of all names will be in certain government buildings computers before you've finished typing.
_________________
Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population |
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carol
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 2764
Location: nestled in the hills of Perthshire
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I can't quite grasp why the SNP are running their own online petition, surely it would be better if their figures were filtered through to the SIC petition. A national online petition registering 531 doesn't hold any credibility moreso with the SNP one supposedly commanding a few thousand (figures not visible). |
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chicmac
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott2006 wrote: | | I have a distrust of signing anything online - i'm sure from what we can read in the papers of what electronic surveillance the UK state is to consider introducing, that a copy of all names will be in certain government buildings computers before you've finished typing. |
I understand your concerns and in many instances they would rightly cause alarm.
Most of us may be aware of the recent moves to record EVERY email and EVERY phone conversation in the UK. Big Brother is truly upon us.
However, even so it is difficult to see how 'they' can make a crime out of a simple acknowledgement of the principle of Democracy by supporting the right of the electorate to have their say in a referendum.
If we were truly in a situation where those advocating normal standards of democracy risked the dreaded dawn arrest and incarceration then, yes that would herald unthinkable consequences.
However, we are nowhere near that, and Scotland will attain normal levels of self-government long before that ever happens. |
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snyper1010
3 Strikes - Banned!
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Lol let them store my details, what will they do? send heavies to my door and demand i vote labour? |
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chicmac
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| carol wrote: | | I can't quite grasp why the SNP are running their own online petition, surely it would be better if their figures were filtered through to the SIC petition. A national online petition registering 531 doesn't hold any credibility moreso with the SNP one supposedly commanding a few thousand (figures not visible). |
The independence petition is being run using various methodologies. Paper petitioning on the street, and on line petitions, so far from the SNP and the SIC.
Despite the nuevo alleged support from Scottish Labour, we have yet to see an on line version on the Scottish Labour website or any offer to solicit their membership.
In fact I heard, allegedly, that Wendy declined to sign the petition despite her avowed support for a referendum and this was before her 2nd U-turn.
The national total from all sources, as of a couple of weeks ago was more than 4,000. This IS published on the SIC website.
The SIC on line version has only really been promoted through its membership, and therefore has been 'stuck' at about 500 for a wee while, however this thread and other promotional plans are part of a new effort to push this particular conduit. You may or may not have noticed that this particular support stream has gone from 501 to 531 in the past 24 hours.
However, while, every collection method should be maximised, it is not simply a pissing contest, Scotland deserves better than that. |
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Scott2006
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Chicmac said: | Quote: | I understand your concerns and in many instances they would rightly cause alarm.
Most of us may be aware of the recent moves to record EVERY email and EVERY phone conversation in the UK. Big Brother is truly upon us.
However, even so it is difficult to see how 'they' can make a crime out of a simple acknowledgement of the principle of Democracy by supporting the right of the electorate to have their say in a referendum.
If we were truly in a situation where those advocating normal standards of democracy risked the dreaded dawn arrest and incarceration then, yes that would herald unthinkable consequences.
However, we are nowhere near that, and Scotland will attain normal levels of self-government long before that ever happens. |
It doesn't have to be considered a 'crime'.
It's just a case of having your cards marked.
If a government that had a strong line on being pro-Unionist decided any 'Nationalist' was not to be employed or recommended for advancement in their career - they just stop choosing the best person and consider their political affiliations first.
We may agree to that if it was refering to BNP or NF types - but a small change in advice guidelines, and anyone not subscribing to the cosy unionist positions would be found unsuitable for a position of power.
If you vote for a party that would in the opinion of the powers that be, set out to destabilise the state, even through peaceful means by using the ballot at election time - where would a panicing elite crackdown?
The British State during the Second World War locked up fascists, pacificists AND Scottish Nationalists when it suited them.
We may not be in that position, and I hope we never need the heavy hand of a police state and multiple ID cards/biometric proof of citizenship ever again - but don't fool yourself.
If the dirty tricks department of the British state thought that a series of scares, perhaps trying to link an extremist element with Al-Quaeda, perhaps fabricating money laundering to dodgy extremists - and then feeding that to a unionist media set on scaring all the middle of the road floating voters of some big bogeyman and demonising mainstream civic nationalists.
The British State has many levels of propaganda that it can throw at any and all Nationalists. Some people are paid to create situations that are trying to undermine any moderate nationalist position or politician wherever they can. To them saving-the-union is more important than truth or fair play.
If things start to look desparate for the union - Tommy Sheridan's swingers parties - muck spreading by a compliant media will seem like chicken feed.
How about Swiss Bank Accounts in the names of leading MSPs suddenly surfacing...?
These politicians sign so many documents - it would be impossible to disprove that it was their signature.
The operatives of the British state are not amateurs and when they get the orders to bring a politician down - they'll eat them for breakfast!
_________________
Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population |
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chicmac
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott2006 wrote: | Chicmac said: | Quote: | I understand your concerns and in many instances they would rightly cause alarm.
Most of us may be aware of the recent moves to record EVERY email and EVERY phone conversation in the UK. Big Brother is truly upon us.
However, even so it is difficult to see how 'they' can make a crime out of a simple acknowledgement of the principle of Democracy by supporting the right of the electorate to have their say in a referendum.
If we were truly in a situation where those advocating normal standards of democracy risked the dreaded dawn arrest and incarceration then, yes that would herald unthinkable consequences.
However, we are nowhere near that, and Scotland will attain normal levels of self-government long before that ever happens. |
It doesn't have to be considered a 'crime'.
It's just a case of having your cards marked.
If a government that had a strong line on being pro-Unionist decided any 'Nationalist' was not to be employed or recommended for advancement in their career - they just stop choosing the best person and consider their political affiliations first.
We may agree to that if it was refering to BNP or NF types - but a small change in advice guidelines, and anyone not subscribing to the cosy unionist positions would be found unsuitable for a position of power.
If you vote for a party that would in the opinion of the powers that be, set out to destabilise the state, even through peaceful means by using the ballot at election time - where would a panicing elite crackdown?
The British State during the Second World War locked up fascists, pacificists AND Scottish Nationalists when it suited them.
We may not be in that position, and I hope we never need the heavy hand of a police state and multiple ID cards/biometric proof of citizenship ever again - but don't fool yourself.
If the dirty tricks department of the British state thought that a series of scares, perhaps trying to link an extremist element with Al-Quaeda, perhaps fabricating money laundering to dodgy extremists - and then feeding that to a unionist media set on scaring all the middle of the road floating voters of some big bogeyman and demonising mainstream civic nationalists.
The British State has many levels of propaganda that it can throw at any and all Nationalists. Some people are paid to create situations that are trying to undermine any moderate nationalist position or politician wherever they can. To them saving-the-union is more important than truth or fair play.
If things start to look desparate for the union - Tommy Sheridan's swingers parties - muck spreading by a compliant media will seem like chicken feed.
How about Swiss Bank Accounts in the names of leading MSPs suddenly surfacing...?
These politicians sign so many documents - it would be impossible to disprove that it was their signature.
The operatives of the British state are not amateurs and when they get the orders to bring a politician down - they'll eat them for breakfast! |
Let's (for the sake of argument) assume you are correct. O.K.?
Then wouldn't your suggestion, that we give up without a fight, in fact be the control freak's best kind of wet dream?
Think about it. |
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Scott2006
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not giving up on anything democratic.
It's just if you've been on any demonstrations you notice photographers etc not from the press, and NOT just members of the public taking snaps.
In any organisation large enough to affect the future direction of the nation, SOME of them will be plants and operatives - face the facts.
I don't need to sign a glorified online petition that really only advances one very narrow party political position.
I don't for a minute believe half a million people will sign up for it - and anything less than 10% of the population is not important enough to bother the Westminster elite.
All the party activists across the whole political spectrum in Scotland amount to about 50,000 people - the figures vary from year to year, but even out of these politically involved people a majority are unionist and would love to see the SNP fail at everything, day in and day out.
The political parties in favour of independence would have to do a type of campaigning closer to what the religious fundamentalists do - but would probably be counter-productive. They would have to announce for volunteers to over a period of a week or so, to visit almost all places of residence and door-step people in an attempt to get a large enough collection of signatures - even then, the famous Mr No-Cheese or other wrong names would be jumped upon by a hostile press.
We need a referendum - not a mulitplicity of petitions.
_________________
Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population |
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chicmac
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Scott2006 wrote: | I'm not giving up on anything democratic.
It's just if you've been on any demonstrations you notice photographers etc not from the press, and NOT just members of the public taking snaps.
In any organisation large enough to affect the future direction of the nation, SOME of them will be plants and operatives - face the facts.
I don't need to sign a glorified online petition that really only advances one very narrow party political position.
I don't for a minute believe half a million people will sign up for it - and anything less than 10% of the population is not important enough to bother the Westminster elite.
All the party activists across the whole political spectrum in Scotland amount to about 50,000 people - the figures vary from year to year, but even out of these politically involved people a majority are unionist and would love to see the SNP fail at everything, day in and day out.
The political parties in favour of independence would have to do a type of campaigning closer to what the religious fundamentalists do - but would probably be counter-productive. They would have to announce for volunteers to over a period of a week or so, to visit almost all places of residence and door-step people in an attempt to get a large enough collection of signatures - even then, the famous Mr No-Cheese or other wrong names would be jumped upon by a hostile press.
We need a referendum - not a mulitplicity of petitions. |
OK. You've made your 'stand' very clear. However, I expect in your heart of hearts you still wish us well.
I think myself if we get towards the 100,000 requirement for enforcing a referendum similar to the likes of Switzerland (with about the same population of Scotland), i.e. about 2%, then we have a compelling case.
Even the less than 1% required to force a referendum in former totalitarian states like the Ukraine, which only equates to 35,000 in Scotland would be compelling.
Of the many countries on the planet which have embraced the principle of Citizens Initiatives and that require a trigger figure to invoke a full scale referendum, NONE require anything like the 10% level you suggest. |
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Scott2006
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Chicmac, I respect your right to advance your referendum petition. I suppose any democratic position on the issue is valid, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
The Westminster parliament when Tony Blair was committing our countries to War In Iraq had a million people on the streets demonstrating against his government's policy.
It changed nothing.
In my opinion, if even 2 million people had signed a petition against the war - he would have smiled politely and had it stuffed in the bin.
Petitions don't always work - but are useful as capturing a 'snapshot' of the politics of its time.
The only difference between Anthony Eden and Tony Blair is that Eden was brought down by Eisenhower not supporting him and being thrown to the wolves of public opinion, while Bush Jr did support Blair and still does
keeping him in the loop on world affairs - where in other circumstances he'd have been hounded out of office.
We live in an imperfect democracy - the Westminster parliament is a democracy at election time, but for five years between elections it is virtually a one-party-state in how it reacts to criticism and answers it electorate.
The Westminster parliament needs to feel threatened by voters deserting them before they do anything constructive - viz the 10p-tax debacle.
The UK Government will not give any credibility to a petition it hasn't hatched itself - so a spectactularly high figure is needed - or it will be seen as a dud and a dead end. Either way, it plays into the hands of the UK Government who can attack it as worthless and meaningless.
_________________
Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population |
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chicmac
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Scott2006 wrote: | Chicmac, I respect your right to advance your referendum petition. I suppose any democratic position on the issue is valid, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
The Westminster parliament when Tony Blair was committing our countries to War In Iraq had a million people on the streets demonstrating against his government's policy.
It changed nothing.
In my opinion, if even 2 million people had signed a petition against the war - he would have smiled politely and had it stuffed in the bin.
Petitions don't always work - but are useful as capturing a 'snapshot' of the politics of its time.
The only difference between Anthony Eden and Tony Blair is that Eden was brought down by Eisenhower not supporting him and being thrown to the wolves of public opinion, while Bush Jr did support Blair and still does
keeping him in the loop on world affairs - where in other circumstances he'd have been hounded out of office.
We live in an imperfect democracy - the Westminster parliament is a democracy at election time, but for five years between elections it is virtually a one-party-state in how it reacts to criticism and answers it electorate.
The Westminster parliament needs to feel threatened by voters deserting them before they do anything constructive - viz the 10p-tax debacle.
The UK Government will not give any credibility to a petition it hasn't hatched itself - so a spectactularly high figure is needed - or it will be seen as a dud and a dead end. Either way, it plays into the hands of the UK Government who can attack it as worthless and meaningless. |
Hey, no sweat. Your 10% is nothing there was a 1 million pledge figure kicking around a couple of years back, i.e about 1 in 3 of the electorate. I kid you not.
However while I concede that the London Government would attempt to ignore ANY figure, the real arbiters which count are the international community and the UN in particular. |
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carol
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 2764
Location: nestled in the hills of Perthshire
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| chicmac wrote: |
The independence petition is being run using various methodologies. Paper petitioning on the street, and on line petitions, so far from the SNP and the SIC.
The national total from all sources, as of a couple of weeks ago was more than 4,000. This IS published on the SIC website.
The SIC on line version has only really been promoted through its membership, and therefore has been 'stuck' at about 500 for a wee while, however this thread and other promotional plans are part of a new effort to push this particular conduit. You may or may not have noticed that this particular support stream has gone from 501 to 531 in the past 24 hours.
However, while, every collection method should be maximised, it is not simply a pissing contest, Scotland deserves better than that. |
So please do explain why the SNP are running their own online petition and not utuilising the SIC one through their own membership? It would make more sense for numbers to be accumulating on one national online petition than 'others' setting up online petitions willy nilly. So is the SIC responsible for all data collected from all sources, or will the SNP be able to utilise the data collected via their website for their own means? |
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chicmac
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| carol wrote: | | chicmac wrote: |
The independence petition is being run using various methodologies. Paper petitioning on the street, and on line petitions, so far from the SNP and the SIC.
The national total from all sources, as of a couple of weeks ago was more than 4,000. This IS published on the SIC website.
The SIC on line version has only really been promoted through its membership, and therefore has been 'stuck' at about 500 for a wee while, however this thread and other promotional plans are part of a new effort to push this particular conduit. You may or may not have noticed that this particular support stream has gone from 501 to 531 in the past 24 hours.
However, while, every collection method should be maximised, it is not simply a pissing contest, Scotland deserves better than that. |
So please do explain why the SNP are running their own online petition and not utuilising the SIC one through their own membership? It would make more sense for numbers to be accumulating on one national online petition than 'others' setting up online petitions willy nilly. So is the SIC responsible for all data collected from all sources, or will the SNP be able to utilise the data collected via their website for their own means? |
Although a member of both the SNP and the SIC I am not in a position to speak on either's behalf but as for my own opinion I really do not see what requires explanation here.
However, if you really want my 2p. If the Scottish Labour Party, the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Conservatives offered to do so then I for one would welcome that as well.
In fact, for a wee moment there it looked like the Scottish Labour Party might have been worth asking (before U-turn number 2 came along).
Are you saying if the Labour party had put the petition on their site that you would rather they didn't? The SLP site is going to get thousands of hits from folk who would never hit on the SIC site.
So why on Earth would the SIC object to the SNP carrying the petition on their site, which also gets thousands of hits? |
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carol
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 2764
Location: nestled in the hills of Perthshire
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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you missed the point Chic. SIC is the platform for the national online petition campaigning for an independence referendum, it would make more sense for ALL online support to be registered there, it would hold if anything more credibility, all it needs is for an organisation to link to the SIC url. Meanwhile the 'closed' SNP petition (as in not visible to the public) is sitting with supposedly a few thousand signatures, whilst the SIC online petiton the platform for the petition is sitting with at this point a measly 542
Last edited by carol on Thu May 22, 2008 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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carol
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 2764
Location: nestled in the hills of Perthshire
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| chicmac wrote: | However, if you really want my 2p. If the Scottish Labour Party, the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Conservatives offered to do so then I for one would welcome that as well.
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Again, who would be responsible for the data collected? |
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chicmac
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| carol wrote: | | you missed the point Chic. SIC is the platform for the national online petition campaigning for an independence referendum, it would make more sense for ALL online support to be registered there, it would hold if anything more credibility, all it needs is for an organisation to link to the SIC url. Meanwhile the 'closed' SNP petition (as in not visible to the public) is sitting with supposedly a few thousand signatures, whilst the SIC online petiton the platform for the petition is sitting with at this point a measly 542 |
OK like I said I don't know the ins and outs of it, but I do suspect that any party (mainstream at least) would be most reluctant to pass on addresses/emails etc. of what would largely be their own membership.
Again, if Labour hosted a version on their site, would you expect them to pass over members addresses and emails? I suspect not, or even if you did, I'm pretty sure you would be in for a disappointment.
As far as I am aware, the only people with an actual 'need to know' might be members of the Electoral Commission who may require a sample of signees for verification. But I have heard, but don't quote me on this, that would be quite a small sample so they could do so quite easily by contacting each data keeper as required.
Regarding credibility, I think most would be rather more suspicious if a party was happy to share data with the SIC. It might imply an undue intimacy, and as you know the SIC is always keen to point out that it consists of members from several different parties and individuals with no party affiliation. But again that is purely my surmising of the situation.
This thread was simply to gve any forum members who have not signed the petition, but who would like to, the opportunity to do so. Not to instigate a beurocratic debate on the matter.
I you have any issues with the SNP or the SIC on this matter, and clearly you do, then I suggest you take it up with them through their respective secretaries. |
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carol
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 2764
Location: nestled in the hills of Perthshire
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Chic, I don't know if you still are but you were involved with SIC petitions working group (I don't know it's correct name), I wrongly assumed you would be familiar with the ins and outs, and I'm very surprised that you are not.
Re data protection etc I'm familiar with some areas of it. I know that organisations cannot give out their members details etc to others. The SNP and others etc wouldn't be expected to do so, it would make more sense for organisations to circulate the SIC url (ie the gopetition) on their site/mailing list and have all online support registered on the one site then the figure of 542 would be reading thousands and not a pitiful few hundred.
Regards my query who is responsible for the data collected by other online petitions, one would think SIC would be, same as the paper petitions collected, after all we're all meant to be campaigning under their banner and collecting signatures on their behalf.
The existing format is wide open to abuse, and anyone who authorised online petitions for this campaign to be set up willy nilly needs to go back and think again.
As for me taking any concerns to secretaries, been there, done that and usually get ignored.
As for this thread, it's a discussion forum, and anything presented will be open to debate |
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Scott2006
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: |
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The Scottish Independence Convention has how many active supporters/associates/members? If anyone knows please inform and enlighten me.
If it has 500 signed up for the online petition is that about 200 activists each with a total of 300 friends that could be bothered signing up?
IndependenceFirst was at one point 'flashmobbed' by a group from one of the Communist Parties and effectively taken over by entryism, according to a popular version of the facts.
A figure of 1 million voters signing up in Scotland to support a referendum is today as it was a few years ago an almost impossible mountain to climb. The political atmosphere is very different from almost 50 years ago when a different convention could command a far higher degree of respect and involvement.
The Labour supporting media would need to be enlisted to deal even handedly in refering to the group before the numbers of signatories rises. The SIC would need some heavyweight names associated with it before the media find it not in their best interest to marginalise it and then rubbish it.
The SIC will either be something that is kept on the back-burner and pushed to the foreground in the last few months before a vote is attempted in the Scottish Parliament on the consultative referendum bill proposal, or the SIC will be like the CSA effectively hijacked by one political party and allowed to fade out of existence when the next set of cross party figureheads a few years later tried/need to try to find some common ground.
_________________
Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population |
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chicmac
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| carol wrote: | Chic, I don't know if you still are but you were involved with SIC petitions working group (I don't know it's correct name), I wrongly assumed you would be familiar with the ins and outs, and I'm very surprised that you are not.
Re data protection etc I'm familiar with some areas of it. I know that organisations cannot give out their members details etc to others. The SNP and others etc wouldn't be expected to do so, it would make more sense for organisations to circulate the SIC url (ie the gopetition) on their site/mailing list and have all online support registered on the one site then the figure of 542 would be reading thousands and not a pitiful few hundred.
Regards my query who is responsible for the data collected by other online petitions, one would think SIC would be, same as the paper petitions collected, after all we're all meant to be campaigning under their banner and collecting signatures on their behalf.
The existing format is wide open to abuse, and anyone who authorised online petitions for this campaign to be set up willy nilly needs to go back and think again.
As for me taking any concerns to secretaries, been there, done that and usually get ignored.
As for this thread, it's a discussion forum, and anything presented will be open to debate |
Well you'll just have to debate it without my input - I'm busy. |
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