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Reluctant Hero · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: Ireland Votes in EU Referendum

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8285849.stm

Irish hold crunch EU treaty vote

Blackrock, Dublin: The result is not expected until Saturday afternoon
Irish voters are heading to the polls in a second referendum on the EU's Lisbon Treaty - a vote that may decide the future of long-delayed EU changes.

They previously rejected the treaty in a June 2008 referendum, by a margin of almost 7%. This time opinion polls suggest the Yes camp will win.

The Republic of Ireland is the only one of the EU's 27 member states to put the treaty to a referendum.

Ireland's economy has been hit hard by recession since the last vote was held.

The treaty, aimed at streamlining decision-making in the enlarged bloc, cannot take effect unless all the member states ratify it.

Around three million Irish citizens are eligible to vote on Friday. There will be no exit polling during the day, but some reports are already suggesting turnout across the country is poor.

Turnout averaged some 21% in Dublin by mid-afternoon, with low volumes being reported outside the capital, said the Press Association news agency.

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen urged voters to go to the polls: " It is an important day for the country and an important referendum... I'd ask everybody, we all have rights as citizens, and one of the rights that should be cherished is our right to vote."

Counting will begin on Saturday, with the referendum result not expected until early Saturday afternoon.

Eurosceptics

At the Redeemer Boys' School in Dundalk, County Louth, enthusiasm amongst voters appears to be muted, with barely 25% of the electorate voting by late afternoon, the BBC's Chris Mason reports.

In Louth, 250 jobs have been lost recently at the Coca-Cola factory, with further redundancies at Xerox - in a region that voted strongly No last time.

But being close to the UK border, there are strong Republican sympathies here. Some argue that having fought for Irish independence it would be reckless to hand more power to Brussels, our correspondent adds.

Apart from Ireland, the only other countries yet to ratify Lisbon are the Czech Republic and Poland. Despite opposition calls for a referendum in the UK, the treaty has been ratified there by parliament.

All of Ireland's major parties campaigned for a Yes vote except the nationalist Sinn Fein. The party believes rejecting the treaty would secure a more democratic EU.

Its leader Gerry Adams said: "Citizens want a fairer Ireland, a fairer Europe, a democratic Ireland, a democratic Europe.

"If we want to have decency and accountability and if we want a social Europe then come out ... and vote No."

The Yes camp also had some lavish donations from big business.

Dr Paul Duffy: A No vote would 'create a lot of uncertainty'
The repeat referendum is about the same treaty text, but since last year EU leaders have given specific commitments on issues which made some Irish voters nervous last time.

The country will not be forced to legalise abortion, to lose control over taxation, and will not have its neutrality threatened.

Ireland's Social and Family Affairs Minister, Mary Hanafin, told the BBC that opponents of the treaty had "very good reasons" for voting No in 2008. But she said those concerns had now been addressed, and she expected a different outcome this time around.

"They were concerned about issues that were raised about neutrality, about taxation, about the right to life, about losing our commissioner.

"Our colleagues in Europe have given us legal guarantees on all of those issues, and because they have been addressed and because people are looking to the future, the economy of this country and our place in Europe. We believe it'll be a Yes vote."

Such sentiments seem to be backed up by comments from 35-year-old Irish voter Eithne Brennan, who said No in 2008 but who now says: " In good times, we can fancy ourselves as an independent country.

"We do not have the luxury this time. The painful truth is that we would be bankrupt without Brussels," Mr Brennan added.

Institutional changes

The chances of the treaty being rejected a second time appear pretty slim, says the BBC's Jonny Dymond, in Dublin.

Sinn Fein's Mary Lou McDonald on the Lisbon Treaty
Ireland's economic situation is so grim, he adds, that many voters are unwilling to risk further turmoil with another No vote, and while many would dearly love to punish the hugely unpopular administration, most will hold off until the next election.

However, opponents continue to maintain that Lisbon undermines national sovereignty and concentrates too much power in Brussels.

Ratifying the treaty would bring in some major changes within the EU.

It would expand the policy areas subject to qualified majority voting (QMV), rather than unanimity. It would also establish a new post of president of the European Council - the grouping of EU states' leaders - and a high representative for foreign affairs.

Treaty supporters say that Lisbon would greatly increase the European Parliament's powers of "co-decision" with the European Council.

Ireland would retain its commissioner under Lisbon, as the treaty would keep the European Commission team at 27. Without Lisbon, the Commission team would have to be reduced in size.

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Reluctant Hero · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject:

And should Ireland vote yes, will Tony Bliar be the first EU President?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/
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magister ludi · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 225

If true......this is unusual

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/w...eaty-warning-to-Irish-voters.html

interesting though that it's about small nation states asserting their individual identity

Aventinian · Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:35 am Post subject:

Stevie · Independentist Joined: 22 Nov 2008 Posts: 1179

Alasdair · Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:52 am Post subject:

I'm really annoyed abou this. Regardless of where you stand on the Lisbon Treaty or Europe more generally there seems to be something fundamentally wrong with having a referendum on the same issue within a year of the original.

I don't believe the outcome either, it's terribly convenient that 'no' voters changed their mind or stayed away.

I'd be affronted if it happened here.
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The Lithgae Jambo · Helping with the Count Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 362

I really don't see what the problem is. The irish rejected what they perceived to be on the table in favour of the status quo. That, in itself, does not mean that the status quo is the absolutely preferred position, only that it was preferred out of the choices given.

A revised proposal was put to them. They opted for that one.

It's democratic. It's called negotiation.
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Holebender · Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:35 pm Post subject:

It's called repeating the question until you get the answer you want. Will there be another referendum next year, just to make sure? Thought not. Now that the desired answer has been given the question will never be asked again. It stinks.
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Ultra · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 29 Sep 2009 Posts: 652

Holebender · Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject:

Considering there has not even been one single referendum offering the choice of Scotland's independence, what basis do you have for your statement? It is absurd, and just another piece of unionist scaremongering.
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Ultra · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 29 Sep 2009 Posts: 652

Holebender · Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject:

I voted in the 1979 referendum, and in the 1997 one. There was no independence option on the ballot.

Even the article you posted (well done for actually posting a link, btw) is headed "Scottish devolution referendum, 1979". If you cannot even understand the difference between devolution and independence, I'm not sure what you're doing here without supervision.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Alasdair · Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:15 pm Post subject:

Ultra · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 29 Sep 2009 Posts: 652

Ultra · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 29 Sep 2009 Posts: 652

Holebender · Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject:

You're a reasonably clever troll, but a troll just the same. The moment you are rebutted you scream "abuse" in an attempt to deflect attention from your initial mistake.

So you only posted the link to see how I'd react? You posted a link to a devolution referendum directly after quoting me on the subject of an independence referendum, but you weren't attempting to establish any connection between the two. Is that about right?

Posting something simply to see your opponent's reaction is, by definition, trolling.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Ultra · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 29 Sep 2009 Posts: 652

The Lithgae Jambo · Helping with the Count Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 362

Holebender · Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject:

How was it a different option? It was the same treaty with the exact same wording, only the government told the electorate they had achieved a handful of "legal guarantees" on certain concessions. It remains to be seen if any of these guarantees will amount to anything.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

The Lithgae Jambo · Helping with the Count Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 362