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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1423
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 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: Language learning funding for Highlands Newcomers |
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| Quote: | A ｣521,000 funding package has been put together to pay for new services for people who have moved from abroad to the Highlands and Islands.
Highland Wellbeing Alliance will use the money for English classes and to help people get jobs. |
Now this pisses me off completely. Have these people forgotten about Gaelic too? This same situation is happening in Wales. Is basically an attempt to further underminde the Celtic languages through the back door.
I have worked with incomers into Wales in the past including refugees and asylum seekers and this was in one of the more Anglicised parts of North Wales. They told me that they where aware of the Welsh language because of road signs etc but never have they been told about the Welsh language, or how to go about learning it. These people are already atleast bilingual they are able to cope with another language!
The same goes for this case. The language is more and more visible in the Highlands now from what I gather, yet these groups while trying to help are actually perpetuing the potential isolation these incomers can suffer by only teaching them about 1 of the languages of the Highlands!
It's one thing to have more and more bilingual signs, get Homebase to have bilingual signs and Cal Mac to have a Gaelic lanuage scheme, but it's this sort of thing that will have a huge affect.
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darkside
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 204
Location: Glaschu, Alba
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Language learning funding for Highlands Newcomers |
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| Cymro wrote: | | Quote: | A ｣521,000 funding package has been put together to pay for new services for people who have moved from abroad to the Highlands and Islands.
Highland Wellbeing Alliance will use the money for English classes and to help people get jobs. |
Now this pisses me off completely. Have these people forgotten about Gaelic too? This same situation is happening in Wales. Is basically an attempt to further underminde the Celtic languages through the back door. |
There is no conspiracy here, the quote that you have provided gives adequate explanation as to the aims of the venture, the purpose is "to help people get jobs", simple as that. For that a knowledge of the English language is considerably more useful than a knowledge of Gaelic (as there are no Gaelic monoglots left).
Furthermore the migrants themselves are here for economic reasons and I doubt that they would appreciate their time being taken up learning a language which is not necessary for them to prosper economically.
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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There is a case to be made for the state teaching English vocationally, the same cannot be said of Gaelic. The latter is, to be blunt, a cultural curiosity.
If the state was interesting in undermining Celtic languages, it wouldn't be paying millions to support them.
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'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1423
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Aventinan, "throwing Millions of Pounds at the language" as you put it, but then with ill thought plans like this is merely giving with one hand and taking away with the other.
At the end of the day you can describe the language and learning it as a "cultutal curiosity" if you like, but it is a 'part' of living in the Scottish Highlands. There is a massive issue especially in the more rural parts of the UK with immigrants feeling isolated from the main population. This is well documented. Language is one of those main issues. The fact that there as no monoglot Gaelic speakers left Anthropos is irrelevent. The fact is immigrants will see the language on signs and if they are lucky may hear it. If we are for interngrating these people, for however little time they are here or for what ever reason they are here then in the very least teaching them about the importance and the place of the Gaelic language in this part of Scotland is not only justifiable is pretty important! |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | Aventinan, "throwing Millions of Pounds at the language" as you put it, but then with ill thought plans like this is merely giving with one hand and taking away with the other. |
So we can encourage Gaelic - but encouraging English literacy is a threat to that?
Really...
| Quote: | | The fact is immigrants will see the language on signs and if they are lucky may hear it. If we are for interngrating these people, for however little time they are here or for what ever reason they are here then in the very least teaching them about the importance and the place of the Gaelic language in this part of Scotland is not only justifiable is pretty important! |
Ah well, I'm not for the state-sponsored integration anyway.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | The fact that there as no monoglot Gaelic speakers left Anthropos is irrelevent. The fact is immigrants will see the language on signs and if they are lucky may hear it. If we are for interngrating these people, for however little time they are here or for what ever reason they are here then in the very least teaching them about the importance and the place of the Gaelic language in this part of Scotland is not only justifiable is pretty important! |
You have said it is important, but you have not said why it should be a necessity. That there are no monglot Gaelic speakers is significant because it demonstrates that the English language has a utility that the Gaelic language does not and hence why that is the language they are to be taught.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Ah well, I'm not for the state-sponsored integration anyway. |
Yes but you see I don't think that is what it is, the primary objective is not intergration in the social sense, it is about allowing immigrants to function better in the economy. How much better that Polish lassie will serve you coffee if she knows what you are saying. 
It is also worth noting that they are here doing the jobs that the natives don't want to do, though whether or not we should restrict immigrants in the hope that it would force businesses to offer higher wages to the native population is a debate I shall avoid for the time being.
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Babygael
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Bajan land
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Of COURSE Gaelic disnae hev the same 'ulitilty" that the engerlish language does FOR OBIVIOUS REASONS.....DUH!!!!
And fek yew!
The fekkin union dumped on the Scots and their language,! But , if Scotland had remained a Soverign state and left to it's leaders, Gaelic would be for sure,prominant in Scotland.
Because you know, folk from overseas visiting SCotland, expect to find a Country that is unique from it's neighbour, thats why they come to experience TRUE Scots cultuire, If they wanted ENGERLISH culture they would go to ENGLAND!
The union be damned!
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1423
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Cymro wrote: | | Aventinan, "throwing Millions of Pounds at the language" as you put it, but then with ill thought plans like this is merely giving with one hand and taking away with the other. |
So we can encourage Gaelic - but encouraging English literacy is a threat to that? |
See Aventinan, what you do here, is show that you have very little knowledge of this issue. The thread to the Gaelic language lies in teaching immigrants to the Scottish Highlands English while ignoring the Gaelic language. Obviously teaching them English will happen and needs to happen. But by doing one and ignoring the other you are instantly placing the Gaelic language in trouble. It's pretty basic.
| Quote: | Really...
| Quote: | | The fact is immigrants will see the language on signs and if they are lucky may hear it. If we are for interngrating these people, for however little time they are here or for what ever reason they are here then in the very least teaching them about the importance and the place of the Gaelic language in this part of Scotland is not only justifiable is pretty important! |
Ah well, I'm not for the state-sponsored integration anyway. |
Why? Have you just descided to oppose it because it suits you right now?
| Anthopos wrote: | | Quote: | Cymro wrote:
The fact that there as no monoglot Gaelic speakers left Anthropos is irrelevent. The fact is immigrants will see the language on signs and if they are lucky may hear it. If we are for interngrating these people, for however little time they are here or for what ever reason they are here then in the very least teaching them about the importance and the place of the Gaelic language in this part of Scotland is not only justifiable is pretty important! |
You have said it is important, but you have not said why it should be a necessity. That there are no monglot Gaelic speakers is significant because it demonstrates that the English language has a utility that the Gaelic language does not and hence why that is the language they are to be taught. |
Well, if the Gaelic language is to regain it's place within Scotland and alongside the English language then basically it has to be treated as equal in these sorts of projects. I'm not saying "they shouldn't be teaching them English...", I'm merely saying that if these people are serious about encouraging intergration of these immirgrants into communities then in the very least a Gaelic Awareness course is pretty important. Otherwise they are merely teaching them a part of Highland life. In terms of importance for the Gaelic language. Even if they are taught about the language, then that is an important step forwards in terms of raising its profile.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Aventinian wrote:
Ah well, I'm not for the state-sponsored integration anyway. |
Yes but you see I don't think that is what it is, the primary objective is not intergration in the social sense, it is about allowing immigrants to function better in the economy. How much better that Polish lassie will serve you coffee if she knows what you are saying.
It is also worth noting that they are here doing the jobs that the natives don't want to do, though whether or not we should restrict immigrants in the hope that it would force businesses to offer higher wages to the native population is a debate I shall avoid for the time being. |
I have no problem with them being here, my problem lies with the do-gooders trying to teach them English while ingoring another language. They are trying to help these people by telling them what they need. These Polish people aren't stupid. They'll be aware of another language, they'll probably be happy to learn about it if they are already taking advantag of the English courses, it's the Scots who run the organisation and the project that are doing the damage. |
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Babygael wrote: | | The fekkin union dumped on the Scots and their language,! But , if Scotland had remained a Soverign state and left to it's leaders, Gaelic would be for sure,prominant in Scotland. |
Actually it wouldn't, but I can't be bothered explaining why as I am not convinced it would be time well spent.
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garye
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | These Polish people aren't stupid. They'll be aware of another language, they'll probably be happy to learn about it if they are already taking advantag of the English courses, it's the Scots who run the organisation and the project that are doing the damage. |
How very true Cymro.
Ave's cheap "historical curiousity" jibe is nothing more than you would expect from him.
The thing about many Eastern Europeans is that alot of them are already at least Bi-lingual and if that is the case then picking up another language is much easier than for folk like anglophone monoglots. Therefore the question should be asked, could Polish immigrants etc could be a good means of addressing the lack of teachers for GME?
Secondly if you are looking for a personal USP to be able to utilise in the labour market the I would suggest that fluency in Gaelic achieves this for an individual much more than fluency in English.
Thirdly considering how important tourism is to SCotland in general and the Highlands in particular, I think we really have to start looking at the quality of experience we are providing for visitors. Training staff in the historic language of most of Scotland in order that they can tap into that knowledge to benefit visitors and enhance their experience is the least that we should be doing. |
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | Well, if the Gaelic language is to regain it's place within Scotland and alongside the English language then basically it has to be treated as equal in these sorts of projects. I'm not saying "they shouldn't be teaching them English...", I'm merely saying that if these people are serious about encouraging intergration of these immirgrants into communities then in the very least a Gaelic Awareness course is pretty important. Otherwise they are merely teaching them a part of Highland life. In terms of importance for the Gaelic language. Even if they are taught about the language, then that is an important step forwards in terms of raising its profile. |
Well it wouldn't take them long to teach immigrants "Gaelic Awareness", but it would a greater challenge to teach the Gaelic. Language is primarily a communication tool that enables its speakers to form mutually beneficial relationships with each other; its usefulness grows in direct proportion to the number of people who speak it and that is why learning English is a necessity and learning Gaelic a luxury. Now you don't have to like this fact, but a fact it remains, and to quote Burns, "But facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed."
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Babygael wrote: | | The fekkin union dumped on the Scots and their language,! But , if Scotland had remained a Soverign state and left to it's leaders, Gaelic would be for sure,prominant in Scotland. |
Perhaps to some degree. It'd probably also have survived better if it hadn't been for Jacobite risings and plenty of other historical events, but even then it'd still have been marginalised and regionalised.
| Quote: | | Because you know, folk from overseas visiting SCotland, expect to find a Country that is unique from it's neighbour, thats why they come to experience TRUE Scots cultuire, If they wanted ENGERLISH culture they would go to ENGLAND! |
Modern Scottish culture is largely an English culture - as it was before the Union as well. Just as Scots is an English language.
If visitors from oversees cared about seeing anything more than a pleasant British city, then they'd stop going to Edinburgh and Glasgow. But do they? Largely, no.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | See Aventinan, what you do here, is show that you have very little knowledge of this issue. The thread to the Gaelic language lies in teaching immigrants to the Scottish Highlands English while ignoring the Gaelic language. Obviously teaching them English will happen and needs to happen. But by doing one and ignoring the other you are instantly placing the Gaelic language in trouble. It's pretty basic. |
The other isn't ignored - there is a huge deal of investment in Gaelic and the other Celtic languages in the UK. Probably to ridiculous levels considering, as I say, it's not a functional language.
These are vocational language courses anyway, not particularly aimed at broadly educating people, but rather making them more able to be economically active. The same case could not be made for Gaelic.
Fundamentally though, if people want to learn Gaelic there are plenty of avenues open to them - and indeed, they probably will if it is well-spoken in their local area.
| Quote: | | Why? Have you just descided to oppose it because it suits you right now? |
Of course not. I've argued for multiculturalism at length on threads about immigration and as a liberal, I stand opposed to any sort of social engineering. Indeed, it's one of my massive objections to nationalism that it legitimises a certain culture as the basis for sovereignty - which I believe is a very fundamental threat to liberty.
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The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| garye wrote: | | Ave's cheap "historical curiousity" jibe is nothing more than you would expect from him. |
And completely failing to debate a reasonable point which seems obvious to most people, while attacking the debator, is exactly what I'd expect from you.
I'm quite an admirer of Gaelic as it happens, I just disagree with statism. But being a nationalist, the state is doubtless almost as close to the nation in being some sort of pseudodeity to you.
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'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1423
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Aventian, it is being ignored by these people. If you invest millions of ｣'s in a thing, such as the Gaelic language you want to see it succeed. If you are then funding a community initiative to concentrate on English alone you are indeed jepordising the potential your millions of ｣s of investment will get.
"Functional Language" has nothing to do with it. In terms of social isolation and trying to conquer that the language is very important for immigrants. They can speak several languages already, chances are. These countries have far more healthy attitude to bilingualism and multilingualism than the UK does. They will see that in the Highlands 2 languages exist merely by looking at signs. Those from Poland and other countries who find themselves living and working in the more rural parts of the highlands, lets say Skye will be even more aware of another language alongside English. If they want to be able to communicate with people in language of choice then the Gaelic language has an obvious importance. The fact that Gaelic speakers can speak English too is irrelevent. We're talking about giving the language a new life here. I can speak two languages, I prefer to deal with things in Welsh if I can though.
A restaurant notr far from where I live employs serveral Polish workers. 2 of them can already speak very good Welsh - accept orders, deal with prices etc in Welsh. This service makes a difference, even if it just goes some of the way in getting rid of the accusation many people try and claim that they are 'swamping' us.
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These are vocational language courses anyway, not particularly aimed at broadly educating people, but rather making them more able to be economically active. The same case could not be made for Gaelic. |
Of course it could! Vacational courses are the best way to learn a language. Far more practical than sitting behind a desk looking over books.
| Quote: |
Fundamentally though, if people want to learn Gaelic there are plenty of avenues open to them - and indeed, they probably will if it is well-spoken in their local area. |
Not if this is anything to go by.
If I moved to Poland I'd learn Polish, if I moved to France I'd learn French, if I moved to Brittany in France, I'd learn Breton, if I moved to French Basque, I'd learn Basque. Otherwise I'm a potential colonist. If that's your ideal of Liberty then I know what I'd like to do with it. |
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