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azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3777

see - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5003220.stm

Montenegro 'chooses independence'

Montenegro has voted for independence from its union with Serbia, according to unofficial projections.

If confirmed, the vote would erase the last vestige of the former Yugoslavia.

Initial indications are that 56.3% of voters elected to secede from Serbia. The pro-independence bloc needs to win 55% of the vote to succeed.

The question of independence has deeply divided Montenegro, with its opponents arguing that it will damage economic, family and political ties with Serbia.

Predrag Bulatovic, the opposition leader who spearheaded the campaign against integration, said his camp would not admit defeat based on an "arbitrary estimate by a monitoring group".

"The results are not final until they are confirmed by the state referendum commission," he said.

Serb politicians, Orthodox church leaders and Montenegrins from the mountainous inland regions bordering Serbia broadly opposed secession.

However, ethnic Montenegrins and Albanians from the coastal area largely favoured independence, as did the Montenegrin Prime Minister, Milo Djukanovic.

He has argued that an independent Montenegro will have a stronger economy and will be a better candidate for admission into the European Union.

Record turn-out

Indications that the pro-independence bloc may have won the vote has prompted celebrations in the Montenegrin capital, Podgorica.

The tooting of car horns filled the city and youths were seen waving the red and gold flag of the old Montenegrin monarchy.

Guns and fireworks were let off in celebration.

Polls opened early on Sunday morning and turnout was said to have surpassed a record 85%.

Voters, some of them dressed in their Sunday best clothes, pondered the referendum question: "Do you want Montenegro to be an independent state with full international and legal legitimacy?"

Montenegro's loose union with Serbia was established in 2003, replacing what was left of the former Yugoslavia.

Both sides were given the option of electing to leave the union after three years.

The last time Montenegro was independent was nearly 90 years ago at the end of World War I, when it was absorbed into the newly-formed Yugoslavia.

Good for them - I'm going to have a rare drink tonight and toast it to Montenegro's prosperous future - if the 'Yes' vote is confirmed of course! Smile

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Shadowman · No Longer a Wean Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 94

Another irrelevant microstate steps onto the world stage. Woop de doo.

Then again Serbia was wrong to annex them after 1918, but such actions that took place nearly a century ago or more ago shouldn't matter to any rational person *cough* like the Highland Clearances *cough*

Lothian Sky · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 350

Superb, good for them. Just watch Montenegro go now, they have a lot going for them.

Better to be "irrelevant on the world stage" than not on it in the first place, don't you think? Rolling Eyes

Nice to see the Greater Serbia ideal being kicked into touch.

Did you hear the NO campaign's claims that Montenegro was too small, too poor, etc. That independence would split families up, etc?

Ring a bell anyone?

Highlander · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 298

Lothian Sky · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 350

You cant just take over land in another state because you have a polulation base, especially when they have been ethnically cleansing the indigenous people. Montenegro was annexed by the Serbs, before that it was an independent state. What did you think about Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland, was that justified? Maybe an independent Scotland should annexe Corby and Nova Scotia! Or Blackpool!

Oops, it's yourself "Highlander", how stupid of me to attempt to give you a reasonable reply.. of course you must be sickened that a country has voted for independence. I'm sure you must be dying to see them fall flat on their face, right?

Highlander · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 298

Lothian Sky · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 350

Nope, I still dont get you.
Yugoslavia was a union much like the UK is now.
I'm not arguing for a greater Scotland, I just want independence. I don't advocate an annexation of Scottish populated areas in England or anywhere else. The Serbs on the other hand, wanted to expand their borders. The Republika Srpska is not in Serbia. Neither is Montenegro. Kosovo is, however, and the fact that it's now populated by ethnic Albanians doesn't give them the right to claim it.

I beleive it's fine for Scotland to take land "away from the UK"? Absolutely!
Whos land is it? If this is a union of states, as opposed to a colony, then it's Scotland's land.

SLG · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject:

Nationalists welcome Europe's newest nation

23rd May 2006

The SNP has congratulated the Balkan republic of Montenegro on its "peaceful and democratic" decision to break away from the rump of the former Yugoslavia and become an independent sovereign state.

Shadow Foreign Minister Angus Robertson urged Serbia, the last remaining republic from Yugoslavia not to have broken away, to respect the decision of the Montenegrin people.

Speaking after the official EU endorsement of the referendum, Robertson said:

"I would like to congratulate the people of Montenegro on their historic decision. Independence is the natural state for proud nations like Montenegro, and this peaceful process, which has now been endorsed by the European Union, demonstrates that the democratic will of a people will prevail.

"I sincerely hope that as Montenegro re-establishes itself as a sovereign nation it will continue to do so peacefully. Serbia must respect the democratic decision of the people of Montenegro," he said.

http://www.holyrood.com/nav/news/stories/story.asp?story=int72

Aventinian · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject:

Lothian Sky · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 350

Not even Berwick. I'll leave that kind of talk to people like Blackleaf.

I admit to an earlier mistake of mine, in saying Kosovo wasn't in Serbia. It obviously is, and a campaign for Kosovan independence isn't one I would support 100%. The KLA instigated and provoked the conflict in the hope they would prompt a backlash, and receive backing from the west. It worked, and the UK fell for it hook line and sinker.
How sick is that?

There are many causes worth dying for in modern Scotland. Independence isn't one of them.

Lothian Sky · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 350

kalashnikov · No Longer a Wean Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 93

If the new state is a capitalist state then it will make no difference to the working class.
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If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. - James Connolly

Neil · Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject:

Serbia did not annex Montenegro. Montenegro happily joined Yugoslavia.

The degree to which the Montenegran "nation" really sought independence can be shown by the extent to which NATO/EU implicitly threatened them if they didn't vote as required, the separatist campiagn required enormous amounts of money from "sources unknown" & voting fraud, unreported EU "observers" & our corrupt media was required to get the 55.5% (a result statistically improbably close to the required 55% & the exit predictions) This is neither democracy nor nationalism it is a perversion of both.

see http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/aki052506.htm

Kalashnikov I think you will find that the 560,000 Serbs who used to live in what is now Croatia were affected by being brought under the rule of our (ex)-Nazi ally in the same way that working class Jews were affected by Hitler. With NATO's military assistance 250,000 are still missing.

It is worth noting that according to our strongest treaty promises & international law we are obligted (line 1, clause 1 , section 1 of the Helsinki Treaty) to "take no action against the territorial integrity or unity" of Yugoslavia - a fact which has naturally been reported by every single journalist & broadcaster who is not totally & copletely lying scum & has led to the resignation form government of every single politician who is not a completely corrupt murdering genocidal Nazi.

Fortunately for the obscene totally lying filth running the BBC, ITN our press & of course Parliament that includes absolutely none of them.
_________________
The aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken

SLG · Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject:

kalashnikov · No Longer a Wean Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 93

Neil · Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject:

Then your point is clearly wrong when the result is the racist genocide of workers (or indeed non-workers).
_________________
The aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken

SLG · Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject:

Ok, if you accept that life for the 'working class' in one capitalist society can be different from another, then why can you not accept that the people of Montenegro may see an worthwhile improvement in their lives whilst still existing within a capitalist state depending on how that capitalist state is administered. It may not be the degree of improvement that you think could be achieved under a different system altogether, but I think it's wrong to suggest that unless they disregard capitalism then the 'working class' can have no worthwhile improvement in their quality of life.

kalashnikov · No Longer a Wean Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 93

SLG · Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject:

I don't think anyone is saying that the problems for the Montenegran people are now solved. Nor do I think there is a way to "administer capitalism" perfectly. I was making the point that there are some ways to "administer capitalism" that are better than others.

IMO if it makes even a slight difference to the people of Montenegro then it is a good thing. I'd rather have a series of iterative improvements than wait for the holy grail, whatever it is, that will solve all problems.

Neil · Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject:

A not previously mentioned advantage of independence, which the Italian courts have discovered, is that it allows the head of state to get away with smuggling billions of euros worth of cigarettes (& some rather nastier criminal activity)