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BonnieBlueFlag

They finally done it by the sounds of it..... now lets see how the world responds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6032525.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6032713.stm

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Reluctant Hero · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:21 am Post subject:

I found this quote particularly chilling:

SLG · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject:

Well something needs to be done. I think the US should stay out of it (or take a lower profile role), they only antagonise the North Koreans. It's up to the countries in the region to decide what to do as they are the ones most at risk.

Reluctant Hero · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject:

I think that would be the wise way forward SLG, but I am not holding out much hope.

Theresa · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:46 am Post subject:

As an American citizen, would it count for much to say that I'm really, really tired of war? Sad

I've had my fill of people dying, especially children.

I'd like to see the U.S. do something positive for a change, and we have lots of domestic issues that could use some concentrated attention. And I hope that the U.S. can rebuild a decent reputation with the rest of the world. It's painful being an American right now.
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"Qui tacit consentire." Silence gives consent.

Rinty · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: y

Maybe the US should do something positive like stick to the Nuclear Non Prolifiration Treaty or stop testing nuclear weapons or stop building new ones. That way their moral high ground wouldnt look quite so shaky and hollow.

Soldier81 · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject:

Come on guys technically we, the US, are still at war with the North Koreans. Its time to become higher profile! Send in advisors and start a new Japaneese Army and the capability to get them nukes. Then maybe all this "talking" we've been doing for 50 years will finally amount to something...

macnumpty · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject:

To be honest, the only thing that policy will amount to is a Far East that glows in the dark.

The fact is, Bush called the Axis of Evil correctly; he's just dealt with them in the wrong order: Iran and North Korea posed far greater threats to regional stability than Saddam. Iran backs Hezbollah, and is almost certainly pursuing WMD. North Korea has WMD. The Iraq War was fought ostensibly over WMD, which have not been found in Iraq, after three and a half years.

Now, if you'll let me digress for a minute: the US presence in Iraq has produced a new front in the "War on Terror", but it's al-Qa'ida, not the Coalition, which has opened it. Now, no one's saying that Saddam was a little ray of sunshine, but Iraq is teetering on the brink of civil war and the forces occupying it seem powerless to do anything about that. The proliferation of WMD has increased, not decreased, following the war. Acts of terror, but in Iraq and in the wider world have increased, not decreased. The only objective of the war which has succeeded is "regime change".

And while the Coalition is bogged down in Iraq, Iran's support for Hezbollah helped to escalate the crisis in the Middle East this summer and is now completely ignoring the IAEA. By either the terror standard or the WMD standard, Iran would have made a wiser target in 2003 than Iraq did. North Korea, which meets the WMD standard, and the "threat to regional stability" standard as a target, would have made a better target than either Iran or Iraq at any time, and a better target in 2003 than at the present time. If military action is justified at all, there would have been a strong case for attacking North Korea and it would have been strategically viable three years ago. Now that they have the Bomb, it is no longer viable: the US has missed its window of opportunity and now we have a rogue state with a lunatic leader armed with one of the most destructive weapons available. In short, Bush dropped the ball.

As regards Japan: 1. You'd have to amend the Japanese constitution; 2. You'd somehow have to prevent China (and the ROK) from reacting hysterically; and 3. You'd have to be willing to accept the risk that the DPRK would view this as the ultimate provocation and as justification for launching an attack. Frankly, all that your idea would result in is a lot of dead bodies. And with the DPRK strike range being what it is, regardless of whether their missiles' payloads were conventional, most of the bodies would probably be Japanese and ROK civilians.
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^ ^ This is Bunny. Bunny wishes that he was on the electoral roll in Glenrothes, so he could vote for Peter Grant. He also reminds you to read the Our Scotland Blog.

Soldier81 · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject:

Believe me the Japanese are definatly thinking about it..

New York Times
October 10, 2006
Pg. 8

Japan Now Seems Likely To Rally Behind New Prime Minister's Call For A Stronger Military

By Martin Fackler, International Herald Tribune

TOKYO, Oct. 9 — The last time North Korea tested a powerful new weapon, in 1998 when it fired a ballistic missile over the largest Japanese island, Japan reacted by upgrading its military and swinging politically to the right.

North Korea’s claim that it tested a nuclear weapon on Monday appears likely to push Japan even further down the same nationalist path. Many political analysts say the test, which has yet to be confirmed, could weaken public support for the pacifism Japan adopted after World War II and prompt it to seek a growing regional security role.

But could the crisis be big enough to force Japan to break what might be its ultimate postwar taboo and go nuclear itself?

This is what some in East Asia have speculated it would do if the isolated and erratic Communist government to its north suddenly conducted an atomic bomb test. But for now, analysts say, domestic opposition runs too deep for Japan to reverse its renunciation of nuclear weapons.

“The nuclear test may prove to be an even bigger shock to public opinion” than the 1998 missile, said Yasunori Sone, a professor of political and policy analysis at Keio University in Tokyo. “It will get a minority of people here calling for Japan to build nuclear weapons.”

The most likely result of North Korea’s actions, analysts say, would be to rally public opinion around Japan’s new prime minister, Shinzo Abe, and his calls for taking Japan in a more assertive direction. The crisis may also increase Mr. Abe’s chances of revising the Constitution to allow Japan to possess full-fledged armed forces.

There have been no calls yet here to build atomic weapons. Still, that is not a far-fetched notion. Japan is known to have stockpiles of weapons-grade atomic material, used in its civilian nuclear power and research programs, and some studies have said it would be able to construct a bomb in a matter of months.

But Mr. Sone and other analysts say that despite North Korea’s claim of a weapons test, Japanese proponents of acquiring nuclear weapons will remain a minority on the far-right fringe. Analysts say going nuclear would face broad and emotional opposition in Japan, which remains the only nation to have suffered atomic bomb attacks.

The prospect of a nuclear Japan might also send shudders through the rest of Asia, where memories of Japan’s wartime aggression are still raw. Some fear it could even set off a new Asian arms race.

Mr. Abe appeared to be trying to take a leading role in responding to the crisis, analysts here said. He and other Japanese leaders were quick to condemn the reported test, saying Japan was working closely with the United States, its closest ally, and Asian neighbors like South Korea and China to find a response.

Speaking in Seoul, where he was meeting with President Roh Moo-hyun, Mr. Abe criticized the test as a “serious threat to the security of Japan and South Korea, and of neighboring countries.”

“We have agreed that we must respond resolutely,” Mr. Abe said in a news conference after the meeting. “We have entered a new and more dangerous era.”

He also said Japan was considering imposing economic sanctions against North Korea and increasing its participation in a missile defense shield that it is developing with the United States. He said Japan had requested an immediate meeting of the United Nations Security Council.

In Tokyo, Yasuhisa Shiozaki, the chief cabinet secretary and top government spokesman, said Japan would try to work with the United States to seek United Nations action, possibly including global economic sanctions. “We will lodge a stern protest and condemn” the test, he said.

If North Korea has exploded a nuclear device, analysts said the effects on Japanese public opinion might take time to appear. When North Korea test-fired a multistage Taepodong missile over Japan in 1998, Japan’s initial reaction was muted, but public opinion ended up moving sharply in favor of building a stronger defense.

That allowed Japan to begin adding weapons that once would have been unthinkable, including Japan’s first spy satellite, a troop transport ship now under construction that experts say could serve as a small aircraft carrier, and aerial tankers that would allow Japanese fighter jets to refuel in midair to reach North Korea and other countries.

For now, analysts said most of Japan’s action was likely to come on the diplomatic front. They also said the crisis offered an unexpected chance for Japan to patch up its ties with South Korea and China.

“This crisis allows Mr. Abe to say that all three countries face a shared enemy,” Mr. Sone of Keio University said. “This is a chance for him to improve relations with Asia.”

Morph · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject:

The thing that i noticed is that this is still a test and they dont have a nuclear capability at the moment. THe Test was more to try and fill the growing displeasure with the heads of the korean state and also to force the US into 2 party talks on sanctions. Maybe with restraint and coming and going this can be resolved
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"An oppressive government is to be more feared than a tiger"

Rinty · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: H

One O'Clock Gun · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject:

Just a random point but, did you know that the surname 'Roh' (as in the ROK president) doesn't exist in Korean.

It's actually 'Noh'. He changed it because he thought it sounded too negative for the west- President NO!
Also he has a PhD from Seoul National University.

A Dr no less.......
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a country with 'democratic' and 'people' in it's title, usually has scant regard for either.

macnumpty · Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: Re: H

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3797

I wouldn't say it was FOR the oil as such, it was just that Saddam fancied trading Iraq's oil in Euros instead of US dollars to f**k the USA over. USA just protecting it's 'empire'....
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Morph · Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:22 am Post subject:

just as Iran is talkinag about now. Rolling Eyes

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"An oppressive government is to be more feared than a tiger"

RFM · Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject:

Rinty: What is this moral high ground you speak of? With George W. Bush? You really must be kidding. The man who said we don't torture people?
McNumpty: So if the science and the technology for nuclear weaponry has been around since the 1920's, why in the world would anyone with half a brain in his head conclude it is possible to prevent other nations from acquiring it? Wasn't that the whole basis of the nuclear non-proliferation debate of the 1950's?

Morph · Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject:

Its easy to tell people they cant have a nuclear weapon if the you do. THe Americans need to look at the fact that they have one of the largest nuclear arsenals at their disposal. It is totally hypocritical for them to them tell other nations that they are not fit to have them. A country such as Germany or Italy should host these talks with nations. This would be better to show a country that it can be a powerful world power eg Germany without Nuclear weapons. I think that this is true. If Germany or italy does have nuclear weapons then please correct me.
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"An oppressive government is to be more feared than a tiger"

RFM · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject:

Actually Morph, Germany has had "access" to nuclear warheads since the 1960's, courtesy of you-know-who. But to carry on my rant to McNumpty, back in the 1940's specifically around 1946 and 1947, the scientists employed in nuclear weapon building were near unanimous about their new creation and whether they had done humankind a terrible disservice. It was clear to them then that once developed, it would only be a matter of time before anyone who wanted one (nuclear device) could make, buy or obtain one. A movement then was started by the Physicists to curtail development and design for the good of humanity. On the other side, led by Dr. Edward Teller and the military, were the group that saw the new weapon as a must-have on the theory that it was only "pure science" and if we didn't do it someone else would (the Russians) and leave us vunerable and exposed. Interestingly the Russians readily agreed, they had already tested a fission device and were known to be going advanced work on a fusion device. Congress of course tried to please everybody and failed at both. One result was the non-proliferation treaty which some nations, notably India and Israel, did not sign. Others did, and that required reducing their nuclear arsenals and stopping development and testing. That of course has gone nowhere. witness Ronald Reagan who wanted to put nuclear weapons into orbit around the earth as a part of his "Star Wars" program.
Now George W. has bought into the idea that America will be a policeman of last resort who will tell the world who can have weapons and who not. Sadly enough Pakistani scientists seem to have anticipated him. In short folks, the discussion about North Korea and Iran has absolutely nothing to do with nuclear proliferation, it has to do with pretixt.