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Pip Pip

I don't know how many of you know about Shuggy's Blog, but this sums up my own thoughts beautifully.

SLG

To pretend that the SNP as a party is anti-English and blames all of Scotland shortcomings on the English and to suggest that the SNP would like to see 'direct-action' is blatant slander.

As for Robertson and his like... Surely even you have to question the priorities of folk like Robertson who have access to documents highlighting the likely gross prosperity of an independent Scotland but which he chose to keep secret for political reasons (i.e. to safeguard the Union)?

Aventinian · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my experience of SNP grassroots members indicates that a large number of them ARE anti-English. If you want to use the 'institutionally racist' label as was used for the Metropolitan Police, you would probably have to label the Nats as such.

There are an intellectual elite in all movements. You fellows, managing to prove your intellect by actually debating your ideas on a public forum, are definitely the nice face of Scottish nationalism. There's also a horrible bunch of bitter little c***s out there.

But yes, the little part of my brain that appreciates political comedy quivers with joy every someone in the SNP makes a comment that would be better no spoken, only to quickly have to retract it... you can almost hear them falling down the party list.
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The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.'

SLG · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject:

Aventinian, I am a long way from the intellectual elite of the party. I have only been involved at grassroots level. I actually think that I am much more radical in my 'nationalism' (or whatever you want to call it) than most SNP members I know. So I feel pretty confident in my assessment that the vast majority of grassroots members are not 'bitter little c***s' or indeed 'anti-English' in any meaningful way. There are some. You get people like that in every large organisation.

I understand that you are ideologically opposed to independence, so anything that damages the SNP would provide some pleasure for you. However you must realise that the party cannot be responsible for the actions and opinions of a small number of individuals. It is blatantly dishonest to suggest that the party as opposed to these individuals are responsible.

Aventinian · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject:

As I say, I am going by the measure of personal experience here - but there do seem to be more than just a few, and they do seem to get the toleration, if not the support, of almost all around them.

If there's one reason I perhaps rant about Nationalism more than the average person (after all, you usually find a lot of revolutionaries willing to speak, but often defending the status quo is neglected in most societies) it is because of my encounters with these sorts of people.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.'

SLG · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject:

Well you have my sympathy. You have obviously had a particularly bad experience that has left long term scars. It might be difficult, but maybe getting out and meeting some normal nats might help you get over it!

Pip Pip

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3777

Maol.Chaluim · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:15 am Post subject:

I don't think Aventinian would ever admit to meeting a reasonable, well balanced member of the SNP. It would leave him with one less argument...

Pip Pip

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3777

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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub

Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/

Aventinian · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:23 am Post subject:

Aventinian · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:24 am Post subject:

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3777

I was referring to the rather extreme nature of some of his views..... Wink

_________________
"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub

Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/

SLG

Rinty · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: n

My experience is that there are a few in the SNP who are nationalist and nothing else, pro-Scottish and anti-English. But I would say that in Scottish Labour there exists a nasty brand of condescending insulting anti-nationalist types who are more likely to be abusive offensive and insulting.

The SNP can sometimes be embarrassed by idiots but I do think that the party must decide where they stand on some issues. To a certain extent I know where Pip is coming from and I think we witnessed a clear example this week.

The now infamous "butchers apron" comments in a press release from Sandra White have led to the resignation of one of her staff. She said she hadn't seen the press release and would not have used the phrase, the guy who resigned has said that she did approve the press release.

Overall though for Pip to suggest that his post "sums up the problem with the SNP" is an exagerration and assumes that the actual problem is that some members hold these views, I dont think thats what the SNPs problem is at all.

On Politics Now last night they asked Tommy Sheridan what he thought and he stated he had used the phrase "butchers apron" to describe the union jack, thought it a fair description and would use it again.

The SNP meanwhile were exposed as not knowing where they stand. On one hand they use the phrase and believe it to be a fair phrase, on the other hand they don't want an attack in the press so they sacrifice some poor member of staff.

You get used to being ridiculed in the press when you are in the SSP, used to being described as loony and leaving yourself open to attack by having policies that large numbers of people find unnacceptable, but there is no substitute for saying what you think and sticking to it.

SLG · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject:

I'm quite comfortable with the phrase 'Butcher's Apron', and use it on occasion myself. I didn't have the problem with the press release at all. It would be interesting to know if Ms White had sanctioned it's release or not though. It's ridiculous that someone should lose their job if it was her error.

I feel the SNP has been forced into that position by the media though. They are desperate to be elected, and (correctly IMO) know that is only going to happen with at least some support from the press. If the kind of rhetoric in that press release is all Pip is complaining is 'below the surface' then I see even less of a problem.

Rinty · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: m

Pip Pip · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: n

Rinty · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: b