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Luke P
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 Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:42 pm Post subject: Political parties to be merged in EU |
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/w...-could-axe-political-parties.html
News that the EU is planning to scrap traditional national political parties in favour of new pan-EU parties.
What does this mean in practice? Simply, in future you will not be able to vote for SNP or LibDem, you will vote for the Nationalist/regionalist party or the Social Democrat block. etc. etc.
As always, the 'soft launch' in the headlines heralds the bigger plan which the European Commission has been cherishing for quite some time. Innoquous justifications belie the ultimate aim - centralisation of the EU and the end of nation states.
Once the SNP, Tories, Labour parties are erradicated from Brussels you can bet it won't be too long before they're erradicated from Westminster. "Good", I hear you cry. Well, yes and no. Once our national party system is gone, hopes of retaining a national political system in any real sense are gone too and once that is gone, hopes of leaving the EU are very faint indeed.
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Alasdair
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Luke P
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | it won't happen, it's be an affront to democracy, on the other hand this is the eu we're talking about ... |
Everything that so far we have said "won't happen" about the EEC, then EC, then EU - has happened. Affronts to democracy are daily business at the EU, whose lawmakers at the European Commission, remember, are not elected... |
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Holebender
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: |
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No, but they are appointed by elected governments.
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Luke P
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | No, but they are appointed by elected governments. |
That's right, the highest lawmaking body in Europe is appointed, not elected. It is an "uber-quango" run by the likes of Peter Mandelson who I wouldn't trust to watch a milk pan.
How would it be in the UK if we elected MPs to parliament who then handed over law-making powers to hereditary peers in the Lords?
Archaic? Bizarre? Old-fashioned? Patronising? Medieval? Feudal? Tyrannical? Elitist?
Undemocratic!!!
The big lie of course is that the European Parliament makes any decisions at all. They are there only to rubber stamp, ratify and redecorate their villas in the south of France. |
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The Lithgae Jambo
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke P wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | No, but they are appointed by elected governments. |
That's right, the highest lawmaking body in Europe is appointed, not elected. It is an "uber-quango" run by the likes of Peter Mandelson who I wouldn't trust to watch a milk pan.
How would it be in the UK if we elected MPs to parliament who then handed over law-making powers to hereditary peers in the Lords?
Archaic? Bizarre? Old-fashioned? Patronising? Medieval? Feudal? Tyrannical? Elitist?
Undemocratic!!!
The big lie of course is that the European Parliament makes any decisions at all. They are there only to rubber stamp, ratify and redecorate their villas in the south of France. |
Just exactly HOW is the commission "law making" when it requires approval from Council and, in an increasing number of cases, Parliament, for any of its proposals to be enacted ?
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Luke P
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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The Commission drafts all proposed legislation for the EU. It requires ratification from parliament and/or the Council of the EU (not to be confused with the European Council) which sometimes happens after amendments have been made. It drafts it in such quantity that it is impossible for MEPs to actually read all the legislation that they ratify. Every day of parliamentary session they are given sheets of paper with tick boxes, to indicate their approval of each piece of legislation. By their own admission they haven't a clue what much of it is about. The Council of the European Union is itself a body of appointees, one from each member state. Already 70% of our laws are made this way. Only the remaining 30% is split between Westminster and Holyrood...
In brief: the (unelected) Commission has the ideas - which are then formalised by the (elected) Parliament/ (appointed) Council. But look closely and tell me that the tail is not wagging the dog...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax-sDZisMag
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Holebender
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Getting back to the original topic; political parties rely on their members to bring them to life. A political party is ineffective without activists who campaign, spread the message, etc. If a political party is some sort of manufactured bureaucratic amalgam I just can't see it attracting enthusiastic members to do the actual legwork involved in gaining any sort of success. This is why I don't see this latest EU scare story as any sort of serious threat.
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Luke P
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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What do you mean scare story? You can read the article yourself. It is no great mystery. Party blocks have been around in the EUP for a while. This is a period of synthesis as we drop the old labels and acquire the block titles as the new pan-EU parties. In short a rebranding exercise (and we're good at those). Inter-party co-operation will become cohesion. As always nothing is rushed so as not to give fright to anyone. To use a tired example, if in 1972 we had been told they were going to set up a new government in Brussels that would make most of our laws, create a European constitution and army and give our fishing grounds to the Spanish I am fairly sure we would have taken fright...
At what stage said pan-EU parties would replace domestic parties in domestic chambers is speculation. I can foresee a time when Labour party propaganda will bear the EU social democrat (or whatever it is) logo alongside the rose, which will eventually be dropped. I am pretty sure it will happen, probably when Westminster has all the clout of an undergraduate debating society.
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Holebender
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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You can't get past the fact that political parties are nothing without active members. If changes are imposed without the co-operation of party members the existing political parties will be ruined, and activists will probably establish new parties to meet their aspirations.
Unless, of course, you are going to tell us new political parties will somehow be outlawed?
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Luke P
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | You can't get past the fact that political parties are nothing without active members. If changes are imposed without the co-operation of party members the existing political parties will be ruined, and activists will probably establish new parties to meet their aspirations.
Unless, of course, you are going to tell us new political parties will somehow be outlawed? |
I have no idea if that will ever happen. Don't be surprised though. Julia Middleton is alleged to have said "In the post democratic era we are ready to lead."
However since the power of political parties and MEPS in the EU is extremely limited - as discussed they do not form policy or table bills - you could theoretically have a million political parties which would not improve our democracy unless the whole system changed. They create the illusion of democracy.
I agree thay political parties rely on their members, but as shown by most of the innovations brought in by the EU, gentle acclimatisation can achieve almost any radical change. Our generation has the luxury of knowing a Europe pre-EU and can still maintain a stance of 'euro-skepticism'. I doubt our grandchildren will have any thing other than an EU perspective on things the way things are going.
Grandson: Grandpa what was the labour party?
Grandpa: Oh, now there's a thing. That was a socialist British political party that I used to be active in when I was a young'un.
Grandson: Just for Britain?
Grandpa: Yes
Grandson: Why?
Grandpa: Well, cos Britain was a separate country then.
Grandson: Must have been strange. Was it like the Social democrat party?
Grandpa: No, it was more like the...
etc. etc.
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Holebender
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke P wrote: | | However since the power of political parties and MEPS in the EU is extremely limited - as discussed they do not form policy or table bills - you could theoretically have a million political parties which would not improve our democracy unless the whole system changed. They create the illusion of democracy. |
| Luke P wrote: | News that the EU is planning to scrap traditional national political parties in favour of new pan-EU parties.
What does this mean in practice? |
Apparently not very much, according to your latest post.
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The Lithgae Jambo
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke P wrote: | The Commission drafts all proposed legislation for the EU. It requires ratification from parliament and/or the Council of the EU (not to be confused with the European Council) which sometimes happens after amendments have been made. It drafts it in such quantity that it is impossible for MEPs to actually read all the legislation that they ratify. Every day of parliamentary session they are given sheets of paper with tick boxes, to indicate their approval of each piece of legislation. By their own admission they haven't a clue what much of it is about. The Council of the European Union is itself a body of appointees, one from each member state. Already 70% of our laws are made this way. Only the remaining 30% is split between Westminster and Holyrood...
In brief: the (unelected) Commission has the ideas - which are then formalised by the (elected) Parliament/ (appointed) Council. But look closely and tell me that the tail is not wagging the dog...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax-sDZisMag |
The political direction of the EU is determined by the European Council. Depending on the subject matter, the legislation has to be passed by Council of the EU or the Council and the Parliament. The "appointees" to the Council are Ministers of the elected government of the Member States.
The Commission may draft proposals. The Commission does not legislate. It is composed of nominees of the elected Govts of Member States. It has to be approved by the elected representatives of the citizens of Europe.
To say it legislates is utter bollocks and to suggest it has no democratic mandate is also bollocks.
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Luke P
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lithgae Jambo wrote: |
To say it legislates is utter bollocks and to suggest it has no democratic mandate is also bollocks. |
I didn't say it legislates.
To me a democratic mandate is granted via a democratic election. What is your definition of a democratic mandate, pray tell?
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The Lithgae Jambo
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke P wrote: | | The Lithgae Jambo wrote: |
To say it legislates is utter bollocks and to suggest it has no democratic mandate is also bollocks. |
I didn't say it legislates. |
Then what does this mean ?
| Quote: | | Affronts to democracy are daily business at the EU, whose lawmakers at the European Commission, remember, are not elected... |
And then, in response to another statement about the Commission ?
| Quote: | | That's right, the highest lawmaking body in Europe is appointed, |
| Quote: |
To me a democratic mandate is granted via a democratic election. What is your definition of a democratic mandate, pray tell? |
We live in what are known as representative democracies. That means we elect representatives to make decisions on our behalf.
Our domestic representatives have a democratic mandate to nominate members to the Commission. Our EP representatives have a democratic mandate to approve (or reject) those nominations.
It is a democratic process. The Commission is answerable to the EP.
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Stevie
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Luke P
uk P
UKIP
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Aventinian
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Political parties to be merged in EU |
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| Luke P wrote: | | News that the EU is planning to scrap traditional national political parties in favour of new pan-EU parties. |
Ultimately, I think that would be the best thing all-round. People often have no idea what their vote translates to in the European Parliament, how the parties relate with one-another or who is 'in office' at any given time.
| Quote: | | As always, the 'soft launch' in the headlines heralds the bigger plan which the European Commission has been cherishing for quite some time. Innoquous justifications belie the ultimate aim - centralisation of the EU and the end of nation states. |
That's a barmy conclusion to come to - there are perfectly good reasons for this measure for people who are not federalists or some sort of Euro-nationalists.
| Quote: | | Once the SNP, Tories, Labour parties are erradicated from Brussels you can bet it won't be too long before they're erradicated from Westminster. |
...and how would that work, then? |
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Aventinian
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke P wrote: | How would it be in the UK if we elected MPs to parliament who then handed over law-making powers to hereditary peers in the Lords?
Archaic? Bizarre? Old-fashioned? Patronising? Medieval? Feudal? Tyrannical? Elitist?
Undemocratic!!! |
Well, we do have an appointed legislative chamber - which is more than can be said for the EU.
Undemocratic? Yes. So what? We have plenty of democracy in our system. |
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The Lithgae Jambo
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: |
Well, we do have an appointed legislative chamber - which is more than can be said for the EU.
. |
.....where the two sides which pass legislation have got democratic mandates from the electorate.
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Luke P
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| Bravehand wrote: | Luke P
uk P
UKIP |
It's nice wordplay but what conclusion is anyone supposed to draw from this? Mild puzzlement at your meaning?
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