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Abieuan
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Carrick
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 Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: Scots to be included in Cencus? |
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From Eurolang:
| Quote: | Scots to be included in Census?
Glaschu / Glasgow, Friday, 11 November 2005 by Martainn MacLeòid
It is increasingly likely that the people of Scotland will be asked whether they can speak, read, write or understand Scots in the next Scottish census in 2011.
This will form part of a proposed new languages question which will now cover Scots and Punjabi in addition to Gaelic which has featured in the census since 1881. There will also be an ‘other language’ option allowing respondents to enter the name of any other language which they know in a box below.
The General Register Office for Scotland (GROS) who administer the census is recommending that this new question be trialled in the 2006 census test. If meaningful data is generated it will then be included in the next national census of 2011.
This move follows lobbying by Scots language organisations including the Scottish Parliament Cross Party Group on Scots, the Scots Language Society and the Scots Language Resource Centre who have argued that data on the number of those able to understand Scots is essential to the future development of the language. A census question would also provide a symbolic boost.
The approach of the GROS to the Scots language has changed markedly since the 1990s when it resisted a high profile campaign for the inclusion of the language in the 2001 census. A research report published by the organisation in 1996 was negative about the possible inclusion of Scots. Concerns were expressed that respondents might confuse the Scots language with Scottish Standard English or with a Scottish accent thus leading to an overestimation of Scots speakers. As Scots and Scottish English are closely related, there was also said to be a danger that those with only a very limited knowledge of Scots would enter themselves as speakers.
Conversely, due to a low level of public consciousness of Scots, some Scots speakers might fail to record themselves as such as they might know their dialect of the language by another name such as Doric or Shetlandic rather than as Scots or might consider themselves to be speaking English rather than a separate language.
However, the GROS has now accepted the case for a Scots language question in principle and is likely that the new question will be included in the 2011 census. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Conversely, due to a low level of public consciousness of Scots, some Scots speakers might fail to record themselves as such as they might know their dialect of the language by another name such as Doric or Shetlandic rather than as Scots or might consider themselves to be speaking English rather than a separate language. |
I would think this would be the main problem. Just another factor of the Scots cringe. Scots is just bad English. Maybe they need to incude some sort of definition of where Scots English ends and Scots begins. |
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Maol.Chaluim
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 418
Location: Glaschu
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Scots to be included in Cencus? |
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| Quote: | | Concerns were expressed that respondents might confuse the Scots language with Scottish Standard English or with a Scottish accent thus leading to an overestimation of Scots speakers. As Scots and Scottish English are closely related, there was also said to be a danger that those with only a very limited knowledge of Scots would enter themselves as speakers. |
This is guaranteed to happen. Until Scots is properly defined and/or standardised, it shouldn't be in the census. I've met people who think that if they speak the local slang, it's Scots, or that the odd Scots words they speak are slang... people who think using words like "ken" or "dinnae" mixed with English would qualify them as Scots speakers. I've even met one person who considered speaking English with a Scottish accent to be Scots.
In don't know about Scots being bad English, though. If The Netherlands were part of Germany, perhaps Dutch would be considered an inferior form of German.... |
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Dave78
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: Scots to be included in Cencus? |
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| Maol.Chaluim wrote: | | This is guaranteedI've met people who think that if they speak the local slang, it's Scots, or that the odd Scots words they speak are slang... people who think using words like "ken" or "dinnae" mixed with English would qualify them as Scots speakers. |
I have to admit, i only ever use a few Scots words....but because i can understand the jist of it. (oh, and studied Burns at school!), i'd probably consider myself a speaker if i was asked in a census.  |
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Blackleaf
Confirmed TROLL
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 887
Location: Lancashire
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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I just consider Scots to be a form of English - just like Geordie.
Talking about other British languages, Welsh is very strange and very difficult. Welsh has two grammatical gender like most Indo-European languages (English is one of the rare exceptions) and feminine nouns change their spelling depending on how you use them in the sentence -
Welsh has a strange aspect of grammar called "soft mutation" in which FEMININE nouns change spelling when you put the definite article before it ( there are no indefinite articles - a/an - in Welsh).
Some examples -
basged (basket/a basket) - y fasged (the basket)
mam (mother/a mother) - y fam (the mother)
gardd (garden/a garden) - yr ardd (the garden)
AND it changes with the word "my" and "her" (but not "he")
stone/a stone - carreg
the stone - y garreg
my stone - fy ngharreg
her stone - ei charreg
But that's only the ones for feminine nouns beginning with C! For words that beging with other letters, there is a completely different combination.
All of the Celtic languages have this soft mutation, but they vary in each language.
So if you want to learn a language, do NOT learm Welsh, cos it is DIFFICULT. |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3797
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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Scots is not Scottish Gaelic though, it's really a Scottish dialectic form of the English language, not to be confused with a Scottish accent or Scottish 'slang'.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| rs_azzuri wrote: | | Scots is not Scottish Gaelic though, it's really a Scottish dialectic form of the English language, not to be confused with a Scottish accent or Scottish 'slang'. |
The linguists argue about whether Scots is a distinct language or an English dialect. Are you a linguist Blackleaf? IMO it is incorrect to compare it with the NE English dialect as there are massive differences in how they both differ from standard English.
Perhaps Blackleaf can also tell us whether Norweigan is a language or a dialect of Swedish, whether Croatian is a language or a dialect of Serbian? There are many more examples. As the linguists say "a language is just a dialect with an army and a navy." |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:37 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't say Scots is a language in its own right and therefore one cannot really be asked if he speaks it distinctly from English.
I've seen English people managing to, quite easily, translate and understand Scots. If it was indeed a separate language, this would not be true. While I am no linguist by profession, this is what sets 'language' and 'dialect' appart for me.
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3797
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: |
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I had an Italian girlfriend who could understand Spanish without too much difficulty - she could translate and understand it fine without having had any tuition in Spanish whatsoever. Does this mean Italian and Spanish are the same? -
Of course it doesn't. Many languages overlap - you only need to look at the fact that most western nations use the same or similiar alphabet to realise that.
English is in itself an offshoot of many different languages - does that mean that English is therefore not a distinct language? Language is constantly evolving - Scots is an offshoot of English and developed in such a way that it has become almost unrecognisable in the written form to that of modern English.
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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