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Scott2006 · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: The CIA on TRIAL in Italy

CIA agents go on trial in Italy

By Phil Stewart Reuters - MILAN (Reuters) -

Twenty six U.S. citizens, almost all believed to be CIA agents, went on trial in absentia in Milan on Friday accused of carrying out one of Washington's most controversial policies in its war on terrorism.

Hours before President George W. Bush was due to visit Italy, the court began the trial of the U.S. citizens, charged with kidnapping a Muslim in Milan in 2003 and then flying him to Egypt where he says he was tortured under interrogation.

Muslim cleric Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, also known as Abu Omar, was on Washington's list of terrorist suspects.

Italian spies, including the former head of the SISMI intelligence agency, are accused of helping the U.S. citizens carry out the so-called extraordinary rendition.

As expected, none of the Americans turned up in court and only one Italian agent was present. The trial got under way with empty cages lining two walls of the courtroom.

"I have been doing this job for 33 years, I have always done it with my head held high and in the full light of day," SISMI agent Luciano di Gregori told Reuters. "I have nothing to hide."

Washington has said it will reject any request by Italy to extradite the accused.

Prosecutor Armando Spataro told reporters the case would show the need to fight against terrorism with "the full respect of the laws of our Western democracies".

"We want the punishment of the terrorists, but in the courtrooms. And we don't need to give to our enemies any reason for recruiting other members of their organisations," he said.

Italy's prime minister at the time, Silvio Berlusconi, and other critics say the trial could expose international espionage secrets and create headaches for Rome.

AWKWARD

The trial comes at an awkward time for centre-left Prime Minister Romano Prodi, increasingly unpopular a year into the job. He wants to keep fractious coalition partners united behind him and away from street protests against Bush on Saturday.

"As far as I can see, Bush's visit is a liability for him and for Prodi. And the fact this trial is the day before makes it more so," said James Walston, head of the international relations department at the American University of Rome.

"Whatever the merits of the case, it will remind the world ... that it appears American secret servicemen kidnap Muslims in Italy. So, that's a big problem for the U.S. administration."

Prosecutors say a CIA-led team seized the Muslim cleric, bundled him into a van and drove him to a military base in northern Italy. From there, prosecutors say the CIA flew him via Germany to Egypt where he says he was tortured with electric shocks, beatings, rape threats and genital abuse.

The cleric's Egyptian lawyer, attending the trial, told reporters his client "wants to be compensated morally and wants those who kidnapped him to pay for their crimes".

"He wanted to come but the Egyptian authorities prevented him," said Montasser al-Zayat, who is seeking criminal damages.

Nasr was released from jail in February but had his passport confiscated. His lawyer has said the imam wants to testify in Italy even though he would be arrested on terrorism charges.

The Italian case begins just over a week after the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed a suit against a Boeing Co. unit it accuses of helping the U.S. CIA transfer foreign suspects to overseas prisons.

The suit was filed on behalf of three people, including an Italian citizen, who the ACLU said were abducted by the CIA, detained and tortured.

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The USA on one hand is the great up-holder of democracy - the land of hope for millions of immigrants - the great defender of freedoms that saved Europe from a Nazi tyranny and stood up against a Soviet Union that held back freedom in Hungary and Czechoslovakia most notably among the other Warsaw Pact satellite states.

The USA should be rightly applauded for all they have done for western democracy.

BUT where do they think they are acting and with what authority can citizens of the USA kidnap nationals of any country, including European Union citizens, and employ middle-ages standards of torture and cruelty?

If anyone was to advocate a re-run or a re-call of the Presidential Election that elected George Walker Bush... would that be deemed as trying to overthrow the US Government? Admittedly by the means of the ballot box and not the bomb and bullet.
Where is the line that US Government agents walk in deciding who is prime for plucking off the street and trussing up like a Thanks Giving Turkey?
Apart from secret committees of the Senate/Congress who holds to account the actions of supposed friendly citizens acting under orders of dubious legality anywhere in the world.
Ayrshire must have a secret location holding area that the US agents would use in the event of not being able to fly out of Prestwick when they used that for rendition flights. But where is it? Is it owned by Big Brother & The Holding Company?

What criteria do they use in choosing their targets? Intercept all phone calls, emails, text messages - surveillance photographs and TV images to see who is a war-monger or radical terrorist?

The former US Secretary of State for Defense Donald Rumsfeld would fail these tests.

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The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population

gordon899 · Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:02 pm Post subject:

1 thing, your eveidence for medievil acts of torture and cruelty.

Holebender · Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject:

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=8560

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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

gordon899 · Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject:

we all know about what happened to those terrorists/insurgents captured in iraq and that was wrong, but could you point out to me what picture has this chap captured in italy?

Holebender · Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject:

We know what happened to those Iraqis in Iraq. Can you point to any evidence of them being "terrorists/insurgents"?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Holebender · Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject:

Do you suppose the 19,000 Iraqis currently held in Iraqi prisons by the Americans are all terrorists/insurgents? Do you suppose even a majority of the 19,000 Iraqis currently held in Iraqi prisons by the Americans are all terrorists/insurgents?

http://www.juancole.com/ Scroll down to the article, dated Sunday, June 10th, about Paris Hilton and Iraqi prisoners. It would probably do you good to read the rest of the website too.

I can also recommend http://electroniciraq.net/ which I've been reading since the build-up to the war in 2003 began. Their reporting from Falujah when the Americans were razing it was gut-churning.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

gordon899 · Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject:

gordon899 · Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:21 am Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 996

Holebender wrote "We know what happened to those Iraqis in Iraq. Can you point to any evidence of them being 'terrorists/insurgents'?"

Gordon replied "aye, they blow up THEIR OWN fellow countrymen".

Correction : it is pretty much indisputable that there are sectarian organisations, both Sunni and Shia, in Iraq, which are quite _capable_ of blowing up their fellow-countrymen, and it is indisputable that SOMEBODY (in fact, quite probably several different and opposed groups, not to mention several different governments, including those of the USA and UK) has been blowing people up in Iraq. But in at least one case where there was very strong evidence of a miscarriage of justice, the British government has been forced to apologise to the wife and children of an innocent Iraqi man who was killed "while in custody". When people are rounded up and held without trial, when people are tortured, when people are killed, and all without a shred of evidence being presented about them in court, where is the evidence of these particular individuals being "terrorists/insurgents" ? Since it has not been produced, it may be, in many cases, totally non-existent.

The decision of the British government to send troops to Iraq was crazy, and was based on totally false "evidence". This was obvious to many of us at the time, and we demonstrated against the warmongers. Although it was false that there was any al qaeda or other muslim extremist foothold in Iraq before, it is not false now, AS A RESULT of the invasion in which British forces participated. Although there was always sectarianism in Iraq, this has been made far worse as a result of the usual deliberate "divide and rule" tactics. (British governments were pursuing such a 'divide and rule' strategy in Iraq as long ago as the 1920s.) The chief British warmonger, Tony Bliar, is on his way out, although his successor Gordon Broon was also deeply involved in going along with the war. Sending troops to Iraq was always wrong and by remaining there they only continue to make things worse. All foreign troops should be removed from Iraq. Certainly so far as British troops are concerned, the process of removal should start immediately.

gordon899 · Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject:

gordon899 · Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject:

see the nutters blowing up car bombs daily in iraq and myrdering thousands of their countrymen, i would call them terrorists, maybe thats to simple, i do not care but they ARE murderous scumbags,.

Holebender · Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:17 am Post subject:

But if they're blowing things up they're obviously not in jail. Do you honestly believe that every one of the 19,000 Iraqis being detained by the Americans is a murderous scumbag? Not one innocent bystander rounded up off the street? Not one family member being held hostage to try to coerce the murderous scumbags into good behaviour?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

gordon899 · Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:20 am Post subject:

No, I do not believe every one of the 19,000 is innocent, but I believe many of them are and I believe many innocents are deliberately rounded up as hostages to try to coerce the real insurgents into good behaviour.

Anyone who believes there are no innocent people in prison or that somebody must have done something wrong to get arrested is a naive fool and I only hope such a person never finds him or herself on the wrong side of the State's operatives. People who think human rights laws only serve the guilty and hinder the innocent need to think again; if we do not protect the worst in our society none of us is safe from the State.

I'm flattered that you would connect me with Shami Chakrabati, who is a lot saner than your writing indicates you are.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

gordon899 · Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:29 am Post subject:

you are praisng chakrabati, going on about human rights and sticking the knife into the coalition and our allies. i'm afarid you are a lost soul and not saveable. your views are to extreme for me my friend.

Holebender · Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:20 am Post subject:

I'm not your friend, so let's be clear about that.

Explain how I am sticking the knife into the coalition and our allies? (Maybe you should also explain the difference between the coalition and our allies.) If you want to know what is harming us and our allies it is engaging in aggressive wars, trampling on the rights of others, and detaining people (innocent or otherwise) without any form of legal process. If you want to create enemies and foment further bloodshed, that's a pretty good way of going about it.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

gordon899 · Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:43 am Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:51 am Post subject:

No explanation, I see.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

gordon899 · Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: