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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: Too small, too poor, too stupid |
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There was a unionist poster on here recently (sorry, can't remember which one of you it was) who claimed that arguments based on the myths of Scotland being too small, poor, and/or stupid to be independent were exclusively fabricated by nationalists, that unionists would never put forward such ideas.
Please take a look at the thread entitled the economic case for independence - sunk. Started by someone who is explicitly arguing that Scotland is too small and poor to sustain independence, and implicitly arguing that Scotland's population is too stupid to find a way out of a banking crisis. This entire thread has been started and sustained by someone who opposes independence and supports union.
Would anyone care to reconsider just who it is who makes the too small, too poor, too stupid arguments?
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Too small, too poor, too stupid |
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| Holebender wrote: | There was a unionist poster on here recently (sorry, can't remember which one of you it was) who claimed that arguments based on the myths of Scotland being too small, poor, and/or stupid to be independent were exclusively fabricated by nationalists, that unionists would never put forward such ideas.
Please take a look at the thread entitled the economic case for independence - sunk. Started by someone who is explicitly arguing that Scotland is too small and poor to sustain independence, and implicitly arguing that Scotland's population is too stupid to find a way out of a banking crisis. This entire thread has been started and sustained by someone who opposes independence and supports union.
Would anyone care to reconsider just who it is who makes the too small, too poor, too stupid arguments? |
You because you are using the same type of argument to try and get people to vote for independence by implying unionist are saying Scots and Scotland are too small, too poor, and too stupid to be independent.
Playground politics. |
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Holebender
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Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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I am not implying anything. I am stating that a unionist poster has a thread running in which he explicitly argues that Scotland is too small and too poor to be independent. It was you (I remember now) who said this sort of thing only ever comes from nationalists and, indeed, you're even trying to say it here.
Just read the thread mentioned at the start of this one and then come back and tell us if you still stand by your claim that unionists never make the very argument put forward in that thread.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | I am not implying anything. I am stating that a unionist poster has a thread running in which he explicitly argues that Scotland is too small and too poor to be independent. It was you (I remember now) who said this sort of thing only ever comes from nationalists and, indeed, you're even trying to say it here.
Just read the thread mentioned at the start of this one and then come back and tell us if you still stand by your claim that unionists never make the very argument put forward in that thread. |
You are implying that Scotland is too small, too poor, and too stupid in this thread by implication. Why don't you put up some evidence which proves Scotland isn't too poor, too small, or too stupid to manage it's own affairs when independent? How would you measure an independent Scotland being a success and successfully managing it's affairs?
What I actually said was several Nationalists including Salmond himself also use this argument to try and encourage people to vote for independence or the SNP.
I never said Unionists don't use this argument too. However, Braveheart is stating that an independent Scotland would not have been able to bail out the bank due to the size of the capital injection required to re-capitalize the banks balance sheets and guarantee bad debts.
So I still stand by what I said in relation to independence supporters using this argument to try and get people to vote for independence clearly backed up yet again by the need for you, an independence supporter, to highlight the too small, too poor, and too stupid argument.
Playground stuff. Haven't you got any better arguments except for claiming the unionist supporters are calling the people of Scotland too small, too, poor, and too stupid to run an independent Scotland?
Closer to the truth will be Scotland will find it's level in the global scheme of things in scale, wealth, and intelligence if it ever did become independent and competes on the global stage.
What country do you work in again Holebender? |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | You are implying that Scotland is too small, too poor, and too stupid in this thread. |
No I am not, and anyone with a reading age above ten can see that I am not. I am implying nothing, I am stating that a unionist poster is saying exactly this in another thread.
Your premise is that nationalists make up arguments about Scotland being too poor, etc. in order to persuade people of the merits of independence (although how you think we expect to win with that sort of argument has always escaped me). I am pointing out the fact that there is a thread running on this forum, started and sustained by a unionist, which is making exactly the too poor, too small argument. It is right there in black and white and yet you still try to tell us it's a nationalist tactic.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | You are implying that Scotland is too small, too poor, and too stupid in this thread. |
No I am not, and anyone with a reading age above ten can see that I am not. I am implying nothing, I am stating that a unionist poster is saying exactly this in another thread.
Your premise is that nationalists make up arguments about Scotland being too poor, etc. in order to persuade people of the merits of independence (although how you think we expect to win with that sort of argument has always escaped me). I am pointing out the fact that there is a thread running on this forum, started and sustained by a unionist, which is making exactly the too poor, too small argument. It is right there in black and white and yet you still try to tell us it's a nationalist tactic. |
Holebender I am not going to sit and go over old ground when indeed I posted up an article previously featuring Salmond stating the 'Too small, too poor, too stupid, aruguments being used in the very context I have said in this thread. It's not for me to say why nationalists use this line of argument as it is very childish.
I could not care less whether unionist use the same argument too. Anyone who does should be treated with the same contempt. An independent Scotland will find it's level globally.
Braveheart's thread is entitled 'The Economic case for Independence -Sunk' so are you claiming that an independent Scotland could have afforded to bail out banks and guarantee debts to the tune of £100 bn's and also that Scotland with 6 million inhabitants and even less paying tax would have been afforded the same level of credit and on the same terms as the UK?
The point I made in this thread is that it was several the Scottish clearing banks who print bank notes and are head officed in Scotland who were bailed out. Are you denying this also? |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | I posted up an article previously featuring Salmond stating the 'Too small, too poor, too stupid, aruguments |
NO YOU DIDN'T.
What you posted was an article in which Salmond QUOTED the argument so often put forward by unionists, in order to disagree with that argument. You can't say that when somebody QUOTES something, in order to express disagreement with it, that they are putting forward the argument with which they disagree. If you look at the top of this post, you will find the statement "I posted an article previously featuring Salmond stating the 'To small, too poor, too stupid aruguments". That is a quote from YOU. Although it was me that QUOTED that statement, it was you that SAID it. I explicitly disagreed with your statement. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | I posted up an article previously featuring Salmond stating the 'Too small, too poor, too stupid, aruguments |
NO YOU DIDN'T.
What you posted was an article in which Salmond QUOTED the argument so often put forward by unionists, in order to disagree with that argument. You can't say that when somebody QUOTES something, in order to express disagreement with it, that they are putting forward the argument with which they disagree. If you look at the top of this post, you will find the statement "I posted an article previously featuring Salmond stating the 'To small, too poor, too stupid aruguments". That is a quote from YOU. Although it was me that QUOTED that statement, it was you that SAID it. I explicitly disagreed with your statement. |
Salmond brought up the subject of Scotland being too poor, too small, and too stupid in an article I posted. Salmond was quoted in the article. This is a fact. So by saying I did not post up an article is not true and is a lie.
I don't really care what sort of play on words you want to use to try and spin this one out. I can't even be bother to go and find the article as it's really too stupid to spend time arguing about the merits of what he said when in fact he did say it. That is the point Dave. He said it in the article which you admit. Another contridiction....
Who cares whether you agreed or disagree. You are entitled to your opinion but the fact of the matter is Salmond said those words in an article I posted up. So why disagree just for the sake of it? |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Ultra, your level of comprehension is far too low for a meaningful political debate.
Consider this; a university debating society is debating Scottish independence. The student arguing against independence says Scotland is too small to become independent. The student arguing for independence says "my opponent says Scotland is too small, but what about Malta? Malta is much smaller than Scotland, but is independent." Now, is the second student making the argument that Scotland is too small?
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Aventinian
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5557
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Your premise is that nationalists make up arguments about Scotland being too poor, etc. in order to persuade people of the merits of independence (although how you think we expect to win with that sort of argument has always escaped me). |
Because nationalists have always relied on the 'London/the English/the Establishment doesn't care about you' line. The suggestion is that these anonymous arguers somehow hold Scotland in contempt, whilst nationalists can deflect back with Macdiarmidian praise of how Scotland and the Scottish people are so big, clever and all-round terrific. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Ultra, your level of comprehension is far too low for a meaningful political debate.
Consider this; a university debating society is debating Scottish independence. The student arguing against independence says Scotland is too small to become independent. The student arguing for independence says "my opponent says Scotland is too small, but what about Malta? Malta is much smaller than Scotland, but is independent." Now, is the second student making the argument that Scotland is too small? |
Holebender, when you can't dis-prove the fact that Salmond did indeed utter those words in an article, you deflect the debate on to me being 'too stupid'. Oh the irony. I know what context Salmond and umpteen nationalists on this site uttered those very words and in which context. Context is the part you seem to have great difficulty understanding.
Is this not what your whole thread is complaining about? I'm a Scot. What a hypocrite you are.
The fact is nationalists use the 'too small, too poor, and too stupid' argument in a different context to whip up support for independence. I have said this umpteen times which has been ignored every time by nationalist supporters prefering to steer any debate on to what unionists or Westminister parties say.
ie The unionists are staying Scots and Scotland are 'Too small, too poor and too stupid' to run an independent Scotland.
I have even said that I do not agee with those statements on Scotland being too small, too poor, and too stupid. Again, this has been completely ignored by you along with my opinion on Scotland finding it's level on the gloabl stage.
Maybe you would like to deny I said this also because it does not quite fit your stereotypical views?
Also, what context did Braveheart use the economic banks bail out arguments in? Which part do you not agree with? Then go and look up the creidt rating for a similar sized country to Scotland and compare it to the UK? |
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Holebender
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Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Context is the very part you completely fail to get. You say you understand the context, but then go on to prove you don't by saying Salmond, or whoever, makes the argument. Salmond and other supporters of independence only ever bring up the argument in order to refute it. They don't say Scotland is too poor, small, etc. they say it is not. The fact that you persist in your line of argument just proves you don't understand the context.
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Context is the very part you completely fail to get. You say you understand the context, but then go on to prove you don't by saying Salmond, or whoever, makes the argument. Salmond and other supporters of independence only ever bring up the argument in order to refute it. They don't say Scotland is too poor, small, etc. they say it is not. The fact that you persist in your line of argument just proves you don't understand the context. |
I said independence supporters use the same argument in a different context. Please feel free to point out where I have said independence supporters describe Scotland and it's people as being 'too small, too poor, and too stupid' because I never have and you are the one making out I have. So you do not understand the context. You have just proved you don't understand the context because you are too busy trying to score points by making out I am saying Salmond says Scotland is too poor, too small, and too stupid when clearly I haven't. You are the one who continually mentions this even starting this thread.
I just think you are an utter hypocrite to describe me as 'too stupid' to debate politics when you complain about unionist doing the same thing to Scots being 'too stupid'
Both unionists and independence use the 'too small, too poor, too stupid' argument. Please provide evidence on where I have said they don't also. I have provided evidence on Salmond using this argument and also other independence supporters on this site.
So what have we established Holebender?
Salmond said those words and both unionists and independence supports use this argument which both you and Dave have confirmed they do.
I notice you still fail to acknowledge the other fact that I went on to say Scotland would find it's level in on a global stage be it on scale, wealth, and intellect.
You have also failed to acknowledge most other questions you have been asked on this thread or provide any evidence to back up why you think Scotland would be able to manage it's affairs when independent and what bench mark of success you would use.
Which country is it you are working these days Holebender for the third time? |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Holebender, you seem to have struck a nerve with the Brit Nats.
It's quite funny really.
For decades, the Brit Nat Labourites and Toryites went on and on about Scotland being too small, incapable of financially sustaining itself; here the Brit Nats are saying it's the nationalists who are using this as some sort of clever ruse.
Of course this is just more Brit Nat bollocks.
During the last Scottish parliamentary elections the Labour party were going on and on in this same vein and it pissed off enough voters to hurt them. All my life I've had to listen to an endless supply of Brit Nats go on about how Scotland is incapable of looking after itself and argue the contrary.
Ultra is perhaps too young to be aware of the history but Aventinian isn't.
They're speaking a lot of drivel.
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | Salmond brought up the subject of Scotland being too poor, too small, and too stupid |
NO HE DIDN'T.
What Salmond brought up was the fact that UNIONISTS say Scotland is "too small, too poor, too stupid". He was QUOTING this in order to disagree with it. | Ultra wrote: | | saying I did not post up an article is not true |
For all I know, you may have posted up hundreds of articles, on dozens of forums. That's not what was in dispute. What was in dispute was your claim to have posted an article with "Salmond stating the 'Too small, too poor, too stupid, aruguments". Salmond has NEVER "stated" these arguments. What he has done is QUOTE them, in order to disagree with them, which is a completely different thing. Holebender is correct in stating that the "too small, too poor, too stupid" arguments are exclusive to Unionists, and the example that he gave of this | Quote: | | the thread entitled the economic case for independence - sunk |
put forward by the inappropriately named "Braveheart", proves his point. |
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landg
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Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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once again it is a nationilist that brings up the wee and poor argument. NOT a unionist.scotland is well able to be and would be fine as an independent nation, i just have not seen a good arguemnrt for it and better arguments for the status quo.
scotland as an indepedent nation COULD not have affored to bail out the banks as an independent nation.end of story. another point in favour of maintaining the union.
stop the wee and poor thing please guys, it's patroninsing at best and downright insulting to those who know of our capablities and achievments. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | Holebender, you seem to have struck a nerve with the Brit Nats.
It's quite funny really.
For decades, the Brit Nat Labourites and Toryites went on and on about Scotland being too small, incapable of financially sustaining itself; here the Brit Nats are saying it's the nationalists who are using this as some sort of clever ruse.
Of course this is just more Brit Nat bollocks.
During the last Scottish parliamentary elections the Labour party were going on and on in this same vein and it pissed off enough voters to hurt them. All my life I've had to listen to an endless supply of Brit Nats go on about how Scotland is incapable of looking after itself and argue the contrary.
Ultra is perhaps too young to be aware of the history but Aventinian isn't.
They're speaking a lot of drivel. |
Bit rich coming from someone who now lives in France and brings up their family there too.
It's the usual Nationalist smoke screen of denying what nationalists actually say and them blaming others by making out they have said something they haven't.
Aren't you a relative of Holebender too? Oh dear.... Tends to run in families this nationalist thing. I blame the parents and grandparents.
Funny how neither of you live in Scotland but have alot to say about it.
How about integrating yourselves into the culture and country you live in? |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, too young to remember.
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | Salmond brought up the subject of Scotland being too poor, too small, and too stupid |
NO HE DIDN'T.
What Salmond brought up was the fact that UNIONISTS say Scotland is "too small, too poor, too stupid". He was QUOTING this in order to disagree with it. | Ultra wrote: | | saying I did not post up an article is not true |
For all I know, you may have posted up hundreds of articles, on dozens of forums. That's not what was in dispute. What was in dispute was your claim to have posted an article with "Salmond stating the 'Too small, too poor, too stupid, aruguments". Salmond has NEVER "stated" these arguments. What he has done is QUOTE them, in order to disagree with them, which is a completely different thing. Holebender is correct in stating that the "too small, too poor, too stupid" arguments are exclusive to Unionists, and the example that he gave of this | Quote: | | the thread entitled the economic case for independence - sunk |
put forward by the inappropriately named "Braveheart", proves his point. |
Dave, Salmond brought up the subject of 'Too poor, too small, too stupid' in the article whether he was quoting unionists or not. Stop lying and making out that Salmond never said it. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Salmond probably said it in order to highlight the unionists' penchant for going on about Scotland being too this or too that to go it alone.
We've heard it a million times from the Brit Nats.
The confusing thing is that despite your using it as some sort of 'argument', you don't seem to realize it's a Brit Nat argument.
Just to let you know, it's not working and the people of Scotland know all about it.
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