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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: Why ethnic minorities feel more Scottish than whites |
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| Quote: | Why ethnic minorities feel more Scottish than whites
MARTIN WILLIAMS
Young people from ethnic minorities place more importance on their Scottishness than their white counterparts, a study has found.
Results of research into the cultural backgrounds of 134 teenagers from ethnic minorities living in Glasgow showed they often thought and talked more about being Scottish than white Scots.
Analysts believe they are forced into emphasising their Scottishness partly because of prejudice and discrimination.
The study, funded by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, found that 80% of the young people interviewed considered themselves to be Scottish.
It also revealed that young Indian and Pakistani men and young Chinese women rated a higher level of importance to their Scottish identity than white men and women.
Half of Chinese Scots interviewed felt that social interaction had a major bearing in their feeling of being Scottish, whereas only 27% of Indians and 14% of Pakistanis thought likewise.
The majority – 82% of Indian Scots, 100% of Chinese Scots and 68% of Pakistani Scots – put their place of origin as major reasons for feeling Scottish. However, just 66% of white Scots concurred.
Some 36% of Pakistani Scots and 27% of Indian Scots said a factor in identifying their nationality came through recognising the difference in cultures between being from north of the border and being English, Welsh or Irish.
Many of those interviewed acknowledged a duality of cultures, unlike those south of the border, referring to themselves in terms of hybrid identities such as Scottish Asian or Scottish Muslim.
The work, carried out by psychologists at St Andrews and Stirling universities, also discovered the identification of Scottishness was linked to higher levels of self-esteem.
The report suggests government agencies should "not be complacent" about the need to promote an inclusive Scottish identity, and it could do that by using the dual ethnicity labels.
The study, led by Dr Clare Cassidy of St Andrews and Dr Rory O'Connor of Stirling, set out to paint a picture of the decisions facing Scottish youths of different cultural backgrounds at an important stage of their lives.
Dr Cassidy said: "In general, we found minority ethnic youths gave Scottishness at least equal importance if not more importance than their white counterparts.
"I think it is in part because they have to spend more time thinking about it and defending their Scottish identity than their white counterparts, particularly if they experience discrimination or have the perception they are not Scottish."
She believed that if a similar research project was carried out south of the border, the results would be different.
"I think you would find that while the Scottish Pakistani label is used, the label English Pakistani is less likely to be used. The English identity is sometimes more bound up with being ethnically English as opposed to being civically English, whereas Scottish is seen as a more inclusive identity and people are more likely to embrace hybrid identities such as Scottish Asian."
Osama Saeed, Scottish spokesman for the Muslim Association of Britain, said the report shows the English have lessons to learn from the Scots about how not to alienate ethnic minorities.
"In Scotland, I don't think ethnic minorities have been battered as they have been south of the border," he said.
"People feel at home in Scotland because people can come to the table with their own beliefs and identity and they are still very much Scottish.
"In England you feel you have to ditch whatever you came in with and adopt a uniform that is acceptable to everyone," he said. |
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/67366.html
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IF Convenor
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 906
Location: Scotland or West Africa, it depends
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: |
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I was just about to post this same article!
See also http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/67367.html
| Quote: | ‘I wasn’t born here but this is my home’
EMMA CLIFFORD August 08 2006
Amal Azzudin is an African-Scot who feels she has to prove herself Scottish to her white counterparts.
She said: "I don't think I look Scottish so I feel I have to prove it to other people. I definitely feel more Scottish than anything else."
The 16-year-old came from Somalia five years ago and now lives in Kelvindale, Glasgow, with her mother, Samiha, and five-year old sister, Xena.
"Most of my friends are Scottish. I really do feel a big part of this country," she said.
Amal was a founder member of The Glasgow Girls, an award winning group of campaigners who fought for the rights of asylum seekers in Scotland.
She said: "I agree that some ethnic minorities feel they have to prove themselves Scottish, perhaps (that is) only down to their own insecurities."
When Amal first came to Britain she stayed in London for 18 months, but she does not describe herself as British.
"I would say I am half Scottish and half African – an African-Scot," she said. "I've lived in Glasgow longer than anywhere else and, although I wasn't born here, this is my home.
"My younger sister was born here so I think she's a little bit more Scottish than me. Although I am starting to speak with a Scottish accent." |
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The man o independent mind,
He looks and laughs at aa that. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting articles. Along with a previous report that found that ethnic minorities were more likely to vote SNP than white Scots. |
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Babygael
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 2654
Location: Bajan land
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Allies where you least expected to find them, thats cool!
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Pict Quine.
Here is where I come to water my roots. |
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Barny Rubble
3 Strikes - Banned!
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: |
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<<<Analysts believe they are forced into emphasising their Scottishness partly because of prejudice and discrimination>>>
The above sentence could be the why; coloured minority ethnics are bound to emphasising their Scottishness. And they will try even harder after the bad press Scotland received during the world cup i.e. male adult harassing an 8-year-old child just because the child was wearing an England shirt. 
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By far the best proof is experience |
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IF Convenor
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 906
Location: Scotland or West Africa, it depends
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
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A rather selective quote, cartoon man. How about these from the same article?
| Quote: | | The work, carried out by psychologists at St Andrews and Stirling universities, also discovered the identification of Scottishness was linked to higher levels of self-esteem. |
| Quote: | She believed that if a similar research project was carried out south of the border, the results would be different.
"I think you would find that while the Scottish Pakistani label is used, the label English Pakistani is less likely to be used. The English identity is sometimes more bound up with being ethnically English as opposed to being civically English, whereas Scottish is seen as a more inclusive identity and people are more likely to embrace hybrid identities such as Scottish Asian."
Osama Saeed, Scottish spokesman for the Muslim Association of Britain, said the report shows the English have lessons to learn from the Scots about how not to alienate ethnic minorities.
"In Scotland, I don't think ethnic minorities have been battered as they have been south of the border," he said.
"People feel at home in Scotland because people can come to the table with their own beliefs and identity and they are still very much Scottish.
"In England you feel you have to ditch whatever you came in with and adopt a uniform that is acceptable to everyone," he said. |
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The man o independent mind,
He looks and laughs at aa that. |
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Pragmatic Pict
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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All for this as we need all the support we can get,
but it is shame that all types of people in Scotland are not taught the true history of Scotland and how it came to be.
You might get the odd history lesson about William Wallace but I haven't heard of people taught about the early peoples such as the picts the arrival of the Brythonic celts south of the Clyde and the arrival of 'Scots' and the Gaelic Language (this was taught in the past!). You are not told how this and 'english' and viking influence and future events shaped the Scotland we have today(such as its place names and peoples.)
My point is it is great to be proud of Scotland but I feel it should also be important to know the true history to gain a greater understanding of Scotland.
I am basically critisizing the education system and not people who are proud scots but don't know much history (this could probably include me as I don't know fine detail  )
In the words of John Prescott " teaching of local history has no place in British Society' |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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"Analysts believe they are forced into emphasising their Scottishness partly because of prejudice and discrimination. "
Although selective quoting, I think that's probably the most significant part of the article.
While it is inevitable to some extent in places with small numbers of immigrants, do we really want to live somewhere were cultural conformity is socially coersed? And yes, I do believe this happens in Scotland and have brought it up before. If I choose not to conform to the standards of everyone else, then I don't expect to face any sort of discrimination or prejudice from the small minded bigots of the world.
Perhaps we're not as cosmopolitan as we'd like to think we are. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | While it is inevitable to some extent in places with small numbers of immigrants, do we really want to live somewhere were cultural conformity is socially coersed? And yes, I do believe this happens in Scotland and have brought it up before. If I choose not to conform to the standards of everyone else, then I don't expect to face any sort of discrimination or prejudice from the small minded bigots of the world.
Perhaps we're not as cosmopolitan as we'd like to think we are. |
The culture of a society is defined by the culture that the people practice. It is always going to be about more than any individual. You might think of yourself as having a unique culture, but it is inevitably influenced by the culture of the society around you, whether you like it or not. Given the scale of the immigrant population in Scotland (in comparison to England), it is more likely that an immigrant in Scotland is surrounded by a more traditional Scottish culture than a corresponding immigrant in England. That such an immigrant is then influenced by that does not mean they are being forced to conform in the sense you mean, just that most immigrants will react naturally to conform. |
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Babygael
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 2654
Location: Bajan land
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: |
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pragmatic pict what you said is right!
| Quote: | | Much like analyist believe they are forced into emphatising their Scottishness partly due to predjuice and discrimination |
No, they have been exhausted by the events in their country and are looking for peace and a wholesome way of life. They KNOW what it means to suffer by others hands.
Scotlands people have forgotten how this feels! We sit in real comfort, never expecting to be dragged out in the night and be chopped up with a cutlass in front of your children! of course these folk are going to appreiciate the country that affords them and their folks safety.
In their place, what would you do?
Let them become Scots! Embrace them out of love for your fellow man!Where is your Scottish "Failte?"But I will never disgrace my Folk by such a display of bad manners and a lack of charity!
Because for those Scots who have become engerlish,well they are the ones who need real HELP!! They don't appreiciate what they have,who they are,where they come from.Indeed, like igronent eejits, they scorn their History and proud past and have no respect for their ancestors who died for Freedom!
I have NO TIME for them, full stop,period!!
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Here is where I come to water my roots. |
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Blackadder
Time For Reincarnation
Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 4712
Location: Treverlen
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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I know lots of ethnic minorities kids in Edinburgh ... and they've always come across as okay guys and chicks ... and for the most part ... they've always felt intrinsically Scottish. This is why Scotland is liked across the world. I've travelled a lot of it ... and once the people find out you're Scots ... they're all over you, buying you drinks and asking about Scotland. I notice they do not treat English people the same.
The Scots abroad have always been fantastic ambassadors for the UK ... and we aristos recognise that.
Scotland welcomes immigrants ... irrespective of race, colour, sexuality and creed ... and that's how it should be.
Even the English ... we're not all bad you know.  |
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kevin04
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: |
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What is a scottish look? Most people who stereotype probably think the Scottish look is red haired but I'd say majority of Scots have dark brown hair or so,
I'm not sure, there are old people you see who look really scottish but you can't tell, some people mistake me for being serb, croat, albanian, russian, polish because I have very dark hair but also very light skin aswell.. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kevin04 wrote: | | What is a scottish look? Most people who stereotype probably think the Scottish look is red haired but I'd say majority of Scots have dark brown hair or so, |
Hence the first-footing tradition. A dark-haired person was assumed to be native, unlike the gingers or the blondes - which would've meant spending your new year being invaded by the Vikings.
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LAz
Nationalist
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: |
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No matter how hard minorities try... they won't ever be Scottish. DNA of different ethnic groups differs, so no matter what they will always be that other ethnic group and not Scottish.
I am not saying that they are a problem. I am just saying that they are not Scottish and won't ever be no matter what.
I mean, look at some countries... Russia for instance... they have minority groups... take for instance the tartars... they are not russian, they're tartar, and it would be an insult to them to call them russian, even though they live in russia. Similarly, in Kazakhstan there are ethnic Russians, and it would be an insult to call them Kazakh. Hence, I find it rude to call minorities in Scotland Scottish. I mean yeah, they might have a hard time 'cause they are foreign, but then perhaps they should go back to where they came from. It is unfortunate for people to have to go through discrimination, but this is bound to happen to foreigners in any country. Different people are always under attack. Where-ever people of different ethnicities go they bring their cultures and their traditions... well this is different from what is being done by the locals. Therefore it will take time to assimilate - more or less depending on where they are from. So until they become accepted by society as one of the commoners, they're in though luck. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| LAz wrote: | No matter how hard minorities try... they won't ever be Scottish. DNA of different ethnic groups differs, so no matter what they will always be that other ethnic group and not Scottish.
I am not saying that they are a problem. I am just saying that they are not Scottish and won't ever be no matter what. |
So what is ethnically Scottish then? Because I very much doubt that many of us have a particularly high level of Scotti blood within us.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1368
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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LAz... what an idiot! That post of yours is nothing but stupid racism.
Anyone who chooses to live in Scotland is welcome and, if they want to be so called, is a Scot. Where does your ethnic model of Scottishness draw the line? Are the descendants of 19th Century Irish immigrants Irish or Scots today? What about King Robert I? Was he a Scot or a Norman? How about Sir William Wallace? How about the Scots, who are said to have come from Ireland? How far does your ethnic cleansing go? We're all descended from immigrants somewhere along the line.
As for "perhaps they should go back to where they came from"; why don't you crawl back up your mother's birth canal and disappear?
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Celyn
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Glasgow
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| LAz wrote: | No matter how hard minorities try... they won't ever be Scottish. DNA of different ethnic groups differs, so no matter what they will always be that other ethnic group and not Scottish.
I am not saying that they are a problem. I am just saying that they are not Scottish and won't ever be no matter what.
........... |
Oh. Not even if living here, and either born here or having chosen (for the present) U.K. nationality?
Heck, just how far back in everybody's ancestry do you want to go?  |
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wisnaeme
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 646
Location: Coventry,England
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I have just been listening to BBC News 24 reportage on the N.U. of teachers conference. Apparently the "peoples party" are still banging the drum in support of their "Britishness" lessons in schools and the teachers are quite rightly a bit p*ssed off with this nonsense. So do these "Britishness" lessons apply to Scotland's schools? But I thought education was a devolved issue or is ' Joke' at branch office gonna be telt what to do as per usual. Do these "Britishness" lessons impart the importance of 1066 or 1966 then? Or is it a Scottish version of " Britishness" that's imposed apon them? It's a bluidy insult to the intelligence of kids and their parents who make Scotland their home. No matter what colour,creed or background new Scots are from,their kids have enough savvy to realise that to get on in their adopted country they must at least understand what makes Scotland tick. What a pack of condescending control freaks the "peoples" party are. They are actually causing more division or should I say "separateness" than a train load of BNP hooligans on the rampage by this implimentation of their illogical new "people's" party creed. Just another fawcett to the war on terror, Eh? The enemy within, Eh? Strange; I haven't heard of many folk with Scots accents being lifted for terrorist offences imaginary or otherwise.
I have lived in Coventry for over thirty years and a while back I visited the local corner shop as I do quite regularily. I've known the proprieter and his family for over twenty years. Witnessed their kids growing up ect and they are a credit to any community. As I was saying a while back a party of their relations were visiting them from Scotland,from an area well known to myself. We gabbed for a while on this and that, indeed they made me bluidy homesick with their Scottish patter, experiences and talk of places we knew. What made us click was our Scottishness. Not our bluidy Brown jobbie and company's"Britishness". The things that affected them affected all Scots, their concerns were Scots concerns, ethnicity ( I dislike yon handle ) wasn't discussed but the "peoples" party were discussed and their disillusion with it's lies,broken promises and contempt for the Scottish electorate which included themselves by the way. Aye they'll be voting for a more credible alternative this time around they said. Aye, as Scots they're in tune with most Scots way of thinking as weel.
PS, I didn't feel a compelling need ( as older central belt Scots have a tendency to do in deciding to dislike or not fellow central western belt Scots abroad ) to ask them whit school they went to or whit team they supported, Gers, Hoops, India, pakistan, whatever by the way.
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They distain all things above their reach and prefer all countries before their own." pluralisation of Thomas Overbury.
Last edited by wisnaeme on Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LAz
Nationalist
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So what is ethnically Scottish then? Because I very much doubt that many of us have a particularly high level of Scotti blood within us. |
People whose ancestors are from that land. People who are from there. Not foreigners.
| Quote: | LAz... what an idiot! That post of yours is nothing but stupid racism.
Anyone who chooses to live in Scotland is welcome and, if they want to be so called, is a Scot. Where does your ethnic model of Scottishness draw the line? Are the descendants of 19th Century Irish immigrants Irish or Scots today? What about King Robert I? Was he a Scot or a Norman? How about Sir William Wallace? How about the Scots, who are said to have come from Ireland? How far does your ethnic cleansing go? We're all descended from immigrants somewhere along the line.
As for "perhaps they should go back to where they came from"; why don't you crawl back up your mother's birth canal and disappear? |
I am not racist. I am not against foreigners. I just find it impossible to say that these foreigners are of the ethnicity where they are in.
Sure, they may be welcome, but they are not scottish.
Sure, there are some who are descendants from immigrants. And there are those who are not. The point is that assimilation. People from Ireland easily assimilate into the scottish society and sooner or later there is no difference between them. However, that is because these people are to some extent from the same culture. Russian people in Scotland will never be Scottish. Nor will Chineese or Arabs.
This is not ethnic cleansing. Where do you get that idea from? I support what the United Arab Emirates do... they let foreigners live there for however long they want... but these people are not granted citizenship.
I do not support that immigrants should go back where they came from. They can fit in if they tried hard enough. And yeah, that means that THEY will have to change to adjust to the Scottish cultural landscape, and that the Scottish Cultural Landscape will not adjust to fit their needs. So yeah, if they have no intention of assimilating into the Scottish Society they should pack their bags and leave, not complain. Complaining for that is their problem, not the problem of the Scots. One nationality must never put another nationality above itself. Scotland must work in the interest of the Scottish people to place their culture above others and not let other cultures work to change the cultural landscape. If one does not want to assimilate, then that one is choosing the consequences of being treated differently. This is the same where-ever one goes in the world.
So yeah, these foreigners should go back to where they came from if they do not want to assimilate and if they find it to be a problem that others in Scotland are not accepting their culture, because there is no reason why the Scottish people should. They came here so they must adjust to the landscape, and the landscape won't adjust to their desires. They may stay but they should know the consequences/common sense - assimilate - no problems ; not assimilating/bringing in new things that are foreign - leads to problems.
What would we do if all of a sudden we get flooded by hundreds of thousands of muslims and they start building mosques all over the country? That would be changing what it means to be scottish and we would have to do something to prevent this. This is not a realistic example, but it is what I am pointing at... the clash of civilizations and the need to protect oneself. Why is iceland so closed off to immigration? Because their culture would disappear if they were open. We have to have toleration of others, but we must draw a line for everything. This is not racism. I am against mistreating those who do not assimilate, but I would rather do business with one who is assimilated that with one who isn't, so it is in their advantage to assimilate. I mean, what else would one expect? Why should we strain ourselves to change our society? We shouldn't. We are who we are, and they are who they are. Someone from Ireland would have no trouble being absorbed into our society and someone from Kazakhstan would have a harder time because they are much more different. It's all in the person... they should have no more or less rights than we do. Suppose they protest that there are no places of worship for them... then hard luck, they came here and knew that there were not... we are not going to start building their cultural things to change our landscape. We are not going to bring their language as mandatory for our education system. They have to adjust, not us. |
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George
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 622
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | "Analysts believe they are forced into emphasising their Scottishness partly because of prejudice and discrimination. "
Although selective quoting, I think that's probably the most significant part of the article. |
Why do you think that?
| Aventinian wrote: |
While it is inevitable to some extent in places with small numbers of immigrants, do we really want to live somewhere were cultural conformity is socially coersed? And yes, I do believe this happens in Scotland and have brought it up before. If I choose not to conform to the standards of everyone else, then I don't expect to face any sort of discrimination or prejudice from the small minded bigots of the world. |
Yes,and we know all too well that the majority of small minded bigots exist on the right wing Unionist side of the political spectrum.
| Aventinian wrote: |
Perhaps we're not as cosmopolitan as we'd like to think we are. |
Especially those who protest too much.......not as tolerant as they like to portray. |
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