Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

Maol.Chaluim

Once upon a time, the SNP argued that once they had a majority of seats at Westminster, they would delcare independence. Now they say that they'd hold a referendum first.

Is this really neccesary? In theory a majority of pro-independence MSPs (65+) is enough, and there are plenty who argue that, including the SEP and some members of the SNP, among others.

What do people think?

Niall · Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:51 am Post subject:

A Charaid.
In England, Parliament is sovereign. In Scotland the Scottish people are sovereign and any major decision must be taken by a plebicite (Referendum) because as you know only about 50%of the people actually vote in an election. It would therefore by highly undemocratic if 26% of the electorate made decisions affecting the other 74% as happens right now.

'S Mise
Niall.
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Cha deanar duine glic ach air a chosd fheinn.

Aventinian · Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:42 am Post subject:

To claim that the Scottish people are sovereign is rather false constitutional law. While I would argue against Parliament being sovereign (I don't even believe it was pre-Union in England, despite what Dicey may say on the subject) I believe it would be wrong to attach sovereignty to the Scottish people. Rather, I'd say in Scotland that internal political sovereignty does not rest with one group or institution and cannot be said to truly be a Scottish concept.

The only thing actually required to make Scotland an independent country is an Act of (the United Kingdom's) Parliament. I cannot foresee Parliament allowing secession without a clear majority consenting in a referendum...

...personally, I probably wouldn't allow it without a two-thirds majority in favour anyway. Then again, I am not a rather liberal legislature...

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3792

with 2/3 in favour?

don't you believe in the principles of democracy?
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Aventinian · Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject:

If I believed in the principles of true democracy, I wouldn't be allowing secession from an established state at all. And no, I believe democracy should be very strictly controlled - it is one of those beasts that must be kept chained to the ground.

We are a democracy, it does apply to this country after - however it takes its place behind many other constitutional and philosophical doctrines. In fact, I don't think I know many democracies that are quite as pure as Britain's. We live in a country where the constitution can be changed on the whim of 50%+1 MPs - cf: Canada, where constitutional amendments require provincial ratification, or the United States where constitutional amendments require 2/3rds consent of both the Senate and the House of Representatives.

This scares me, and makes for bad constitutional law - as we have seen with Tony Blair's abuses of ancient institutions like the office of the Lord Chancellor.

Maol.Chaluim · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject:

50%+1 MPs often represent 38-40% of the total votes cast. Pure democracy?

Aventinian · Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject:

Ah, intriguing point.

Incidently, I don't think even the SNP could be so deluded as to imagine (as the OP suggests) that they'd ever win a majority at Westminster...
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Shagpile · No Longer a Wean Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 89

What intrigues me is how some people believe this country is democratic! Can someone explain why it is perfectly acceptable to have safe seats in a democracy for example?

Aventinian · Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject:

SLG · Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject:

Shagpile · No Longer a Wean Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 89

Hi Aventinian,

FYI I lived in CH, for just over 6 months, their kind of freedom and democracy is worth giving up the ghost for. Not our crap. Dont patronise you w****r.

Why is it good we dont have a democracy?

Would it not be great if every MP/MSP was worried s******s on election day?

Aventinian · Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:26 am Post subject: