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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3787
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 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject: 'Scottish Independence Party' or the 'Free Scotland Party'.. |
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anybody believe either of these parties is the way forward for Scottish Nationalism?
A good alternative to the SNP, or do they just dilute the Nationalist vote?
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4403
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:02 am Post subject: |
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So this is where the new loonies on the Scotland.com forum have been coming from....
Hello, pleased to meet you etc. |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3787
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:08 am Post subject: |
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nice way to introduce yourself. 
oh i forgot, unionists and good manners don't quite mix do they? 
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Who said I was a Unionist? |
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Andy Bowden
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| The union jack may have given it away |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| I don't assume anyone with a saltire as their pic is a Nationalist... |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3787
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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ok then - aside from that issue, would you describe yourself as more of a nationalist or a unionist?
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:44 am Post subject: |
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I don't think I'd use the term 'Unionist' generally. I've never heard it being used by anyone other than nationalists. But I suppose it roughly reflects my politics. I was making a point more than anything else...
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'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really meanpower over people, power to the State.' |
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Niall
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Cairnbulg
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | I don't think I'd use the term 'Unionist' generally. I've never heard it being used by anyone other than nationalists. But I suppose it roughly reflects my politics. I was making a point more than anything else... |
A Charaid.
The use of the 'Butchers apron' as an avatar is deeply offensive to us Gaels. Some of the worst recorded examples of ethnic cleansing and mass genocide in Scotland have been carried out under that flag.
I have no objection to you using the St Georges cross which after all is your national flag but stop flaunting that symbol of imperial oppression in our faces. Their usual fate is to be burned at commemorations like Glencoe, Culloden, Bannockburn etc, etc.
When Scotland becomes Independent in the next few years the only place you will find a butchers apron will be in a museum. Unionism will be stone cold dead, buried and unlamented.
'S mise le meas
Niall.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | I've never heard it being used by anyone other than nationalists. |
Ever heard of the Conservative and Unionist Party? |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4403
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:32 am Post subject: |
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I don't believe there has ever been genocide in Scotland post-1707. And don't even try to bring in the Jacobite Rebellions - sedition would be put down in any country - and the Highland Clearances, which were the responsibility of Scottish nobles who simply wanted to make a bit more cash off of their land.
Perhaps you'd care to note how many great achievements have been accomplished under the Union Jack: the abolition and prevention of slavery, the liberation of German concentration camps, the raising of the standard of living in Scotland to that of a first world nation.
The fact that you'd call anyone's national flag 'offensive' demonstrates a deep seated bigotry. Every country has its proud moments and its shameful moments.
The St George's Cross has no relation to me at all. Plus I dislike using flags of nations as I believe they are effectively a fiction created by man.
If you seriously believe that the essential unity of the British Isles will ever be destroyed then you are a fool. They are interlinked and interconnected, they form a natural administrative area, being a small group of Anglophone islands in the middle of the sea... Even if Scotland became a nation-state, the days of nation-states are numbered. It wouldn't be long until people realised the folly of nationalism and created a new Britain, perhaps not under the same symbols or the same head of state, but still Britain...
| SLG wrote: | | Ever heard of the Conservative and Unionist Party? |
Hmm, a fair point I suppose. Not exactly a widely used term though... |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | If you seriously believe that the essential unity of the British Isles will ever be destroyed then you are a fool. They are interlinked and interconnected, they form a natural administrative area, being a small group of Anglophone islands in the middle of the sea... Even if Scotland became a nation-state, the days of nation-states are numbered. It wouldn't be long until people realised the folly of nationalism and created a new Britain, perhaps not under the same symbols or the same head of state, but still Britain... |
The essential unity of the British Isles was destroyed in 1921 with the establishment of the Irish Free State. Of course we are all linked together and of course Britain will continue to exist as an island. However, look at the Scandinavian countries? They manage to function very well together through the Nordic League without all needing to be ruled from Stockholm. In fact at present remaining part of Britain prevents Scotland from having closer links with Eire. I totally agree that there is much in common between us all. Independence (for Scotland at least) would remove a lot of the bad blood, and allow us to cooperate with the other states of the British Isles as equals. In general Independence is a radical progressive step to try and solve some of the real problems we face in Scotland, not an attempt to put up barriers between neighbouring countries. It is IMO the Unionists who use more nationalist rhetoric (I.e. the one-nation Tories) than most Scottish nationalists. |
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wallacesclaymore
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | I don't believe there has ever been genocide in Scotland post-1707. And don't even try to bring in the Jacobite Rebellions - sedition would be put down in any country - and the Highland Clearances, which were the responsibility of Scottish nobles who simply wanted to make a bit more cash off of their land.
Perhaps you'd care to note how many great achievements have been accomplished under the Union Jack: the abolition and prevention of slavery, the liberation of German concentration camps, the raising of the standard of living in Scotland to that of a first world nation.
The fact that you'd call anyone's national flag 'offensive' demonstrates a deep seated bigotry. Every country has its proud moments and its shameful moments.
The St George's Cross has no relation to me at all. Plus I dislike using flags of nations as I believe they are effectively a fiction created by man.
If you seriously believe that the essential unity of the British Isles will ever be destroyed then you are a fool. They are interlinked and interconnected, they form a natural administrative area, being a small group of Anglophone islands in the middle of the sea... Even if Scotland became a nation-state, the days of nation-states are numbered. It wouldn't be long until people realised the folly of nationalism and created a new Britain, perhaps not under the same symbols or the same head of state, but still Britain...
| SLG wrote: | | Ever heard of the Conservative and Unionist Party? |
Hmm, a fair point I suppose. Not exactly a widely used term though... |
You weaken your own points by your condasending attitude.
You make yourself sound inferior by the language you use and the points you make, which to you, are the ONLY valid points.
The points you make are part (and no small part) and the opinions you hold are a part (and no small part) of my getting behind the whole nationalist movement.
You can belittle and insult as much as you like pal, but at the end of the day, the union was BORN from an unjust and unwanted treaty which has held the people of Scotland under British/English rule for almost 300 years.
We can obviously see the benefits of us all pulling together as one "nation" when you cite the war etc. And tell me, do you suggest we form one even bigger state with the Americans and our other "allies" for the "common good" .... I THINK NOT.
The way to state a point is to state a point WITHOUT insulting other people's views and beliefs.
You, my (un)learned friend, have stated the point in the poorest manner possible which further reinforces my belief that the whole unionist belief is made up from many like minded folks - CLOSE MINDED - with no real belief that such an apparently small, insignificant nation like SCOTLAND can ever be/do anything alone....
Funnily enough, we had managed just fine until 1707....and I have EVERY confidence, we WILL do again.
WC.
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Celyn
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Glasgow
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | .........
Perhaps you'd care to note how many great achievements have been accomplished under the Union Jack: the abolition and prevention of slavery, the liberation of German concentration camps, the raising of the standard of living in Scotland to that of a first world nation. |
In terms of a historical timeline, that is true. And do you suggest that the U.K. single-handedly liberated the German concentration camps, prevented slavery, did everything in the world that's at all nice and shiny and cool and groovy? And further, even assuming Great Britain, (and later the U.K.), to be responsible for all that is good in the world, it's not clear just why the 1707 union was somehow a necessary condition for this.
Now, I'm sure if you looked hard enough, or perhaps not very hard at all, you would be able to find lots of things that have happened since 1707, some of them not very pretty. Invention of concentration camps, fortunes made from slave labour, exploitation of other countries in the name of empire , football... 
| Aventinian wrote: | | ..................... Plus I dislike using flags of nations as I believe they are effectively a fiction created by man. ...... |
Yet you have chosen a specific flag to use as your avatar, for some reason.
Fiction created by man? Well, yes, it's not too often we hear about fictions created by dogs, goldfish, or three-toed sloths, interesting though they might well be.
| Aventinian wrote: | | ........................... being a small group of Anglophone islands in the middle of the sea... ...... |
And this came about because, on one bright happy day, everybody got together and chose to use the English language, did it? No sign of any coercion at all? (And, yes, the sea is often quite a good place to find islands.)
Meh. I need more coffee. At least I suppose no-one can claim that I have the Treaty of Union to thank for coffee.
Second thoughts nah, even that can't probably be guaranteed. There's bound to be a "Sun" or "Daily Rectum" reader somewhere ............. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Fiction created by man? Well, yes, it's not too often we hear about fictions created by dogs, goldfish, or three-toed sloths, interesting though they might well be. |
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Niall
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Cairnbulg
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Aventinian"]I don't believe there has ever been genocide in Scotland post-1707. And don't even try to bring in the Jacobite Rebellions - sedition would be put down in any country - and the Highland Clearances, which were the responsibility of Scottish nobles who simply wanted to make a bit more cash off of their land.[quote]
A Charaid.
You do not believe there has ever been genocide in Scotland? Sit down with open eyes and mind and read the following:
Culloden is a Name that rightly blackens the British state for the extreme cruelties of the troops under 'Butcher' Cumberland. A century later, Lord Rosebery the Liberal Prime Minister made a bleak statement in the House of Commons when discussion took place regarding awarding a battle honour 'Culloden' to regiments that took part in the battle. The Proposal was defeated when Lord Rosebery spoke Thus:
'No Blacker Bloodier page will be found in the history of any country than that which records the atrocities against a brave but vanquished enemy perpetrated at the command and under the eyes of a British monarch's son.'
To learn more, try this URL. (Read especially the aftermath)
http://www.queenofscots.co.uk/culloden/cull.html
There is also the attempt by the british Government to wipe out the Irish and Highland Scots through the use of Famine. Its a catalogue of a governemnt determined to wipe out the Celts forever. Would you like me to post a short history backed up by UK Government historical documents.
Yes there were many instances of genocide carried out by the British Government and far too many people like yourself prefer to stick their heads in the sand and ignore them.
'S mise
Niall.
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4403
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| wallacesclaymore wrote: | You weaken your own points by your condasending attitude.
You make yourself sound inferior by the language you use and the points you make, which to you, are the ONLY valid points. |
I believe the other poster was simply attempting to be offensive. After all, attacking one's national flag is attacking a symbol of one's country. That's quite simply not on.
Even so, I usually try to keep a civil tongue and a chirpy demeanor. I don't wake up in the morning with the intention of insulting anyone.
| Quote: | | You can belittle and insult as much as you like pal, but at the end of the day, the union was BORN from an unjust and unwanted treaty which has held the people of Scotland under British/English rule for almost 300 years. |
British. There is equal (if not greater) representation of the other parts of the UK in government. Anyway, to suggest in a democracy that someone is 'ruling' over someone else is wrong. After all, democracy does translate to 'the rule of the people.'
Who really cares how it came about. The Parliaments of Scotland and England both agreed to it, however dodgy the enactment was it was certainly legal. I'm not arguing for the Union in a historical context, I'm arguing for it in the here and now.
| Quote: | | We can obviously see the benefits of us all pulling together as one "nation" when you cite the war etc. And tell me, do you suggest we form one even bigger state with the Americans and our other "allies" for the "common good" .... I THINK NOT. |
I would never call the UK a 'nation' because it simply is not. That is one of its strengths.
I wouldn't be against closer unity with other countries. I am a great supporter of NATO and the ideals behind the European Union - if not the actual institutions as the presently function. I have made posts on websites about a federal Commonwealth and a united Anglosphere as I believe these are the countries which we have the most in common with and thus can be most united with.
I see a future where things are done at the most appropriate levels of government. There will always be closer bonds with countries that are like us (say Canada or America, for example) than ones which have (at present) more foreign ideals and ways of life, but I believe that co-operation across national boundaries is the only way the world can function together in a globalised age.
| Quote: | | The way to state a point is to state a point WITHOUT insulting other people's views and beliefs. |
A case of the pot calling the kettle black? Or rather an onlooker examining the stove and ignoring the blackness of the pot...
| Quote: | You, my (un)learned friend, have stated the point in the poorest manner possible which further reinforces my belief that the whole unionist belief is made up from many like minded folks - CLOSE MINDED - with no real belief that such an apparently small, insignificant nation like SCOTLAND can ever be/do anything alone....
Funnily enough, we had managed just fine until 1707....and I have EVERY confidence, we WILL do again. |
Learned? I'm afraid I do not hold presumption to such a weighty title - I am, after all, not a qualified member of the legal profession.
Anyway, you have created a stereotyped image in your head here (of "Unionists") - which incredibly ironic considering that you're accusing me of being 'close minded' when it is in fact you who is presenting the best example of the very actions that you criticise.
And your comment about what you believe I think of Scotland entirely contradicts what I have said beforehand in other threads.
Scotland did do fine before 1707, just as we did fine before 871 (I think that was the year Scotland was founded, I may be out by a few decades) and we were quite functional when half the country was under Roman administration. No doubt we did quite well as hunter-gathers too. However, I choose not to settle for 'managing just fine.' Call me an idealist, but I want to help create the best and most just system of government in this world that we can.
Last edited by Aventinian on Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | The essential unity of the British Isles was destroyed in 1921 with the establishment of the Irish Free State. Of course we are all linked together and of course Britain will continue to exist as an island. However, look at the Scandinavian countries? They manage to function very well together through the Nordic League without all needing to be ruled from Stockholm. In fact at present remaining part of Britain prevents Scotland from having closer links with Eire. I totally agree that there is much in common between us all. Independence (for Scotland at least) would remove a lot of the bad blood, and allow us to cooperate with the other states of the British Isles as equals. In general Independence is a radical progressive step to try and solve some of the real problems we face in Scotland, not an attempt to put up barriers between neighbouring countries. It is IMO the Unionists who use more nationalist rhetoric (I.e. the one-nation Tories) than most Scottish nationalists. |
I think one-nation Tories are complete and utter tossers. Just as I imagine you believe the same about a few elements in the Nationalist movement.
I don't think the simple co-operation ideal works. Look at the EU: 'ever closer union' is what was envisaged. I should point out that this dones not mean ever closer centralisation. I don't want Britain to be ruled from London, just as I don't want Scotland to be ruled from Edinburgh, or Europe to be controlled by Brussels' regulations. I want things to work on the levels which things can be best accomplished at.
That may mean the end to 'sovereign statehood' - so in the end, you may have something close to your dream. However I don't think nations forming into countries is a positive step towards this ideal. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4403
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Celyn wrote: | In terms of a historical timeline, that is true. And do you suggest that the U.K. single-handedly liberated the German concentration camps, prevented slavery, did everything in the world that's at all nice and shiny and cool and groovy? And further, even assuming Great Britain, (and later the U.K.), to be responsible for all that is good in the world, it's not clear just why the 1707 union was somehow a necessary condition for this.
Now, I'm sure if you looked hard enough, or perhaps not very hard at all, you would be able to find lots of things that have happened since 1707, some of them not very pretty. Invention of concentration camps, fortunes made from slave labour, exploitation of other countries in the name of empire , football... |
Like I have said, I don't believe a flag can be held to be offensive unless someone has some underlying bigotry. After all, a flag represents the people who have a certain bond, with the UK that bond is political and with Scotland that bond is cultural or whatever your criteria for nationhood is.
To say that British politics have been entirely 'good' or entirely 'bad' would be wrong. Essentially as a product of humanity, they will echo the spirit of individuals - ie, essentially good (at least, that is my opinion on humanity - the essential goodness of people is a concept I hold as very important). For every oppression and for every unjust law, I can point you to a Parliamentary speech where what was morally right, good and just was said.
That's why the Union Jack cannot be considered bad.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Yet you have chosen a specific flag to use as your avatar, for some reason. |
Ah, but not the flag of a nation...
| Aventinian wrote: |
And this came about because, on one bright happy day, everybody got together and chose to use the English language, did it? No sign of any coercion at all? (And, yes, the sea is often quite a good place to find islands.) |
Every language in history has been effectively forced down the throats (no pun intended) of its speakers. Anyway, the history behind it is irrelevant to its status today. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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If you don't mind, I'd like to answer some of the points you made in response to WC.
Could I also ask you, are you Scottish and do you live here? Of course, even if you are not, you are perfectly entitled to your opinions, but it does help put them into context.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Quote: | | You can belittle and insult as much as you like pal, but at the end of the day, the union was BORN from an unjust and unwanted treaty which has held the people of Scotland under British/English rule for almost 300 years. |
British. There is equal (if not greater) representation of the other parts of the UK in government. Anyway, to suggest in a democracy that someone is 'ruling' over someone else is wrong. After all, democracy does translate to 'the rule of the people.' |
Ah well that is only if you consider all MPs to be British and to treat all citizens and regions equally. I don't believe this to be the case and many English MPs will not act in Scotland's best interests where it might have a negative effect on England, even if it is the best solution for the UK as a whole, just as there are Scottish MPs who would always put Scotland first. Just because there is no English nationalist party, doesn't mean that there is any shortage of English nationalists in Westminster. And when 85% of the parliament are English this can lead to the bad governance of Scotland. This attitude is not going to change any time soon and so the only logical option is for Scotland to be ruled by Scots.
| Aventinian wrote: | I wouldn't be against closer unity with other countries. I am a great supporter of NATO and the ideals behind the European Union - if not the actual institutions as the presently function. I have made posts on websites about a federal Commonwealth and a united Anglosphere as I believe these are the countries which we have the most in common with and thus can be most united with.
I see a future where things are done at the most appropriate levels of government. There will always be closer bonds with countries that are like us (say Canada or America, for example) than ones which have (at present) more foreign ideals and ways of life, but I believe that co-operation across national boundaries is the only way the world can function together in a globalised age. |
I do agree with you when you say you want the 'most appropriate levels of government' and 'co-operation across national boundaries'. I however don't see a place for Westminster in that. Scotland is a perfect size of country for efficient governance based on most of the powers that are presently held at Westminster. I would hope that and independent Scotland would not be so centralised as the British state. I would definitely not want to see Scotland restrict, or even favour anglophone nations as you seem to suggest.
I've travelled about Europe a fair bit and travelled a bit in America. I personally feel more at home in Scandinavia, and Western Europe than I did in America. I have also lived in England for a while and felt like a foreigner there. Large chunks of America are also becoming Spanish speaking as the first language and this is only going to continue.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Scotland did do fine before 1707, just as we did fine before 871 (I think that was the year Scotland was founded, I may be out by a few decades) and we were quite functional when half the country was under Roman administration. No doubt we did quite well as hunter-gathers too. However, I choose not to settle for 'managing just fine.' Call me an idealist, but I want to help create the best and most just system of government in this world that we can. |
Ok, so you are an idealist. Surely the present settlement must make you cringe. It is a fine example of bad governance and it will not change if it is left in the hands of Westminster. The only way to revitalise democracy in Scotland is to get out of the UK. Then we can start to look at how we can co-operate with the remainder of the UK, the EU and the rest of the world. Westminster is the status quo, the 'managing just fine' and we need out of it. |
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