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Abieuan
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 483
Location: Carrick
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 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: Àirde/Status |
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| Quote: | CELTIC LEAGUE - PRESS INFORMATION
EU - NEW STATUS FOR CELTIC LANGUAGES
The European Council is due to vote on the European status of two
Celtic languages today (Tuesday 15th July 2008), after talks begun
between the Westminster Government and Europe early last month. If
agreed, the Scots Gaelic and Welsh languages will be given the same
EU status currently enjoyed by the Basque, Catalan and Galician languages,
where citizens have the right to send correspondence to the EU in
their native language and receive a reply in that language.
The new status will also give the right for representatives to use
the Scots Gaelic and Welsh languages at an EU level in some meetings
and receive simultaneous interpretation. However, the development
will fall short of granting Scots Gaelic and Welsh full official status,
which was granted to the Irish Gaelic language in 2005. The vote giving
Scots Gaelic and Welsh semi official EU status is expected to be carried,
because of support from London, on condition that the Scottish and
Welsh parliaments pay the costs.
However, this will mean that the Breton and Cornish languages will
be the last remaining Celtic tongues to be without any right at an
EU political level. It is not expected that London will petition the
European Council for the Cornish language to be given similar EU rights
to Scots Gaelic and Welsh any time soon and hopes that Breton is officially
heard in the European Parliament without backing from Paris – which
barely recognises the existence of Breton - is far too optimistic.
The League hopes that the Scottish and Welsh public and political
representatives make the most of the new European service and don't
simply reply on English as the main means of communication to and
in European political institutions, as has been the case of Irish
language users in the past.
(Reported prepared for Celtic News by Rhisiart Tal-e-bot) |
I think Gàidhlig must have held on to the coat-tails of Cymraeg/Welsh to get as far as these other European languages.
We need more speakers of Gàidhlig if more progress is to be made in terms of European recognition.
More children must learn Gàidhlig in schools, no matter what part of the world they have originated from.
Gàidhlig must become "less strange" to native Scots who have already passed through the school system, this may be helped by the forthcoming TV channel - depending on it's availability.
Gàidhlig must become more widely used in Alba/Scotland before we go further in Europe.
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Àirde/Status |
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| Abieuan wrote: |
Gàidhlig must become "less strange" to native Scots |
Why 'must'?
| Quote: | | Gàidhlig must become more widely used in Alba/Scotland before we go further in Europe. |
Presumably you refer to Gaelic. Why 'must'?
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It's murder every week at Firhill. |
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Cymro
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1645
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Well in simple term Agent, it's essential in order to ensure that the language doesn't only continue to decline but that it manages to become 'normal' again in certain parts of the country.
At the moment, too many people are afraid of coming out fighting (for want of a better word) for the language because it's seen as marginal and not for them. This is exactly what has pushed the language to where it is now, and countless other minority languages across the world that have been lost or are being lost, making the world in my opinion a poorer place.
It seems from your posts that you don't really care if the language dies, or at least want it to have as little impact on you as possible. This is a sad state of affairs as any language in Scotland as far as I'm concerned is a sign of strength and should be cherished and protected as much as any historic landmark in Scotland. It's part of what makes a country a mature country - the ability to protect it's various aspects of it's culture.
Now, I'm not going to argue that everyone in Scotland or even in certain parts of Scotland should be Gaelic Speakers. It would help the language if that was possible, but saddly it's not. However, Gaelic needs to be seen as normal alongside English in those areas where it clearly has not only a presence but roots. Bilingual roadsigns, easy access to Gaelic medium education for children in their local schools, the ability to also access Gaelic medium high schools for those who wish to receive it as well as University education through the medium of Gaelic will all help to rebuild the status the language not only needs but deserves. |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: |
Well in simple term Agent, it's essential in order to ensure that the language doesn't only continue to decline but that it manages to become 'normal' again in certain parts of the country. |
Or in other words, 'must' just because you want it to.
| Quote: | | it's seen as marginal and not for them. |
It is marginal. It's spoken only by a tiny minority. In what possible sense could it be 'for' anyone but the people who speak it?
| Quote: | | This is exactly what has pushed the language to where it is now, |
The language is where it is now because successive generations of native speakers abandoned it in the belief that their own economic prospects were better served by speaking English.
| Quote: |
making the world in my opinion a poorer place. |
I tend to agree. But then I am interested in languages for their own sake.
| Quote: | However, Gaelic needs to be seen as normal alongside English in those areas where it clearly has not only a presence but roots.
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Somewhere on the Russian Steppes then?
| Quote: | | Bilingual roadsigns, easy access to Gaelic medium education for children in their local schools, the ability to also access Gaelic medium high schools for those who wish to receive it as well as University education through the medium of Gaelic will all help to rebuild the status the language not only needs but deserves. |
I don't have any argument with those measures in themselves, though the notion of a language 'deserving' anything is absurd.
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Cymro
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1645
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Or in other words, 'must' just because you want it to. |
What kind of a cop out is that? Am I not allowed an opinion of what I believe is right now then? Going to be one quiet message board here if we're not allowed to say what we believe! 
| Quote: | It is marginal. It's spoken only by a tiny minority. In what possible sense could it be 'for' anyone but the people who speak it?
The language is where it is now because successive generations of native speakers abandoned it in the belief that their own economic prospects were better served by speaking English. |
Well why then here in Wales do many if not most according to several polls regard the Welsh language as something that belongs to Wales, not just to those of us who can speak it or choose to use it in our day to day lives.
It's marginal because of several pressures. You are ofcourse right that this is mainly down to the decisions of consequtive generations of Gaelic speakers not to transfer the language on to their children. But why is this? It's the belief which exists across the Welsh, Irish, Manx, Scots languages that in order to achieve anything in life only English will help. Thankfully increasingly the agenda is being turned towards the benefits of bilingualness and the fact that English monolingualness is actually a negative thing.
| Quote: | | I don't have any argument with those measures in themselves, though the notion of a language 'deserving' anything is absurd. |
In what way is it absurd? Can you think of a better word? |
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Cymro
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1645
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Or in other words, 'must' just because you want it to. |
What kind of a cop out is that? Am I not allowed an opinion of what I believe is right now then? Going to be one quiet message board here if we're not allowed to say what we believe!
| Quote: | It is marginal. It's spoken only by a tiny minority. In what possible sense could it be 'for' anyone but the people who speak it?
The language is where it is now because successive generations of native speakers abandoned it in the belief that their own economic prospects were better served by speaking English. |
Well why then here in Wales do many if not most according to several polls regard the Welsh language as something that belongs to Wales, not just to those of us who can speak it or choose to use it in our day to day lives.
It's marginal because of several pressures. You are ofcourse right that this is mainly down to the decisions of consequtive generations of Gaelic speakers not to transfer the language on to their children. But why is this? It's the belief which exists across the Welsh, Irish, Manx, Scots languages that in order to achieve anything in life only English will help. Thankfully increasingly the agenda is being turned towards the benefits of bilingualness and the fact that English monolingualness is actually a negative thing.
| Quote: | | I don't have any argument with those measures in themselves, though the notion of a language 'deserving' anything is absurd. |
In what way is it absurd? Can you think of a better word? |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | What kind of a cop out is that? Am I not allowed an opinion of what I believe is right now then? Going to be one quiet message board here if we're not allowed to say what we believe! |
Using 'must' implies some moral or philosophical argument to back up mere opinion.
| Quote: | | Well why then here in Wales do many if not most according to several polls regard the Welsh language as something that belongs to Wales, not just to those of us who can speak it or choose to use it in our day to day lives. |
Sentimentality? Nostalgia? Guilt?
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the benefits of bilingualness and the fact that English monolingualness is actually a negative thing. |
I agree.
| Quote: | | In what way is it absurd? Can you think of a better word? |
It's absurd because a language is an inanimate object, a tool, a system of scratches and grunts. 'Deserving' can only be the compliment of a human agent.
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Cymro
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1645
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Using 'must' implies some moral or philosophical argument to back up mere opinion. |
Oh come on now, surely you are taking the piss now? Either that or the straws you are clutching at are very hard to get at.
The nearest you are is with "moral". As far as I am concerned, there is a moral reponsibililty on the present generartion, none more so than those who can speak Gaelic, to ensure that the language is continued. I will say that any Gaelic speaker has a moral responsibility to ensure that the language is transfered to the next generation.
| Quote: | | Well why then here in Wales do many if not most according to several polls regard the Welsh language as something that belongs to Wales, not just to those of us who can speak it or choose to use it in our day to day lives. |
| Quote: |
Sentimentality? Nostalgia? Guilt? |
Certainly an element, but a huge aspect in the more Anglicised areas is the economic factor. More and more people are realising that is also has a strong economic benefit. Personally I'd rather we made more of the fact that it is actually a responsibillty coming from the three factors you list though.
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It's absurd because a language is an inanimate object, a tool, a system of scratches and grunts. 'Deserving' can only be the compliment of a human agent. |
Sorry sbudly, I have no time for semantics, which is what your arguments look like. Stonehenge, Edinburgh Castle, Stirling Castle, the stone ring at Shetland etc are also human created 'things' built to satsify human feelings at the time. They are now though hugelly important historically |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | Oh come on now, surely you are taking the piss now? Either that or the straws you are clutching at are very hard to get at. |
Apologies if I wasn't being clear. Words like 'must' can be used in two ways. Either loosely, in which case it implies no more than an excess of emotional attachment to the suggested outcome, in which case the argument can be safely ignored as wishful thinking. Or it can be used deliberately, in which case some inherent property of the argument itself necessitates the suggested outcome on moral, philosophical or at least linguistic grounds.
But I am wandering OT again.
| Quote: | | I have no time for semantics, which is what your arguments look like. Stonehenge, Edinburgh Castle, Stirling Castle, the stone ring at Shetland etc are also human created 'things' built to satsify human feelings at the time. They are now though hugelly important historically |
Of course they are important. Gaelic is important too. I'm much more sympathetic to it than you probably suspect. But as with so much else in this sort of cultural field, I get warned off by overzealousness. And I think semantics matter when any suggestion of 'ought' is brought up. Maybe especially when discussing language!
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Cymro
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1645
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Well my use of the word "must" in this context comes from my belief that important steps have to/must be taken by local government, central government and communities to ensure the decline of the Gaelic language as a spoken language does not continue. Once it's lost it's very very difficult to ressurect it (Hebrew being one of the few examples of a ressurected language but only happened because of unique and special situation involving Jews in the 20th Century).
Scotland will have lost something valuable if it is lost.
You're bound to see some people who initially feel uneasy about it or come out against it - i.e. the number of people who write letters to News Papers complaining about the cost of bilingual road signs in parts of Scotland. But I firmly believe that these small steps are a small, but important cog in the machine of rebuilding the Gaelic language.
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