Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

When I was in Barcelona, I soon got used to the signs in Catalan. I know a bit of French and I know a bit of Spanish and if you know these two related languages you can pretty much find your way around in Catalan. Some years ago, a friend of mine was living in Barcelona. He had an idea for a PhD thesis, which he put to the University of Barcelona. He wanted to do research, and to write a thesis, on re-emerging nations such as (for instance) Scotland and Catalonia. (This was far more of a new idea at that time than it is now!) Great idea, said the University authorities. Of course, it will have to be written in Catalan. Sadly, my friend gave up a little too easily at that point. It really wouldn't have been so difficult.

Dundee used to be known for the three Js - "Jute, Jam, and Journalism". The "Scotland On Sunday" newspaper a few days ago had an article entitled "Jute, jam and student gibberish". Was this an admission by the author, Marc Horne, that it wasn't exactly high-quality journalism? In the article, Marc reported that the University of Abertay has a lot of students from overseas, and that the University has given some advice regarding language to these students.

"The warning is posted on Abertay's online guide to living and studying in Dundee. It states: 'The Scottish accent is regional and can be stronger in some areas. It will normally take a couple of weeks for your ear to become attuned to the accent.' The guide then attempts to reassure international students, saying: 'Lecturers at the university are from all around the world so they may not necessarily have a Scottish accent.'" - That is true. When I was at the University of Abertay in 1993, it was the "international" lecturers I found quite difficult to understand!

"Abertay spokesman Kevin Coe said fears over language barriers were common among overseas students. 'We would advise people to watch Scottish films or listen to Radio Scotland online before they arrive so they can introduce themselves to the way people speak English here.'" - the fact is, we do have loads of students from other countries here in Scotland, and they are welcome here, and the Scottish Executive has introduced measures to encourage them to stay in Scotland after they graduate because they are an asset. I think the University of Abertay is right to reccomend that foreign students should make an effort to understand Scots, and to give helpfull advice on how to do so.

But Marc gives an example of a supposedly "Dundonian" expression which is nothing of the kind. "TWA bridies, a plen ane in an ingin ane an a." There is just one language characteristic which is peculiarly Dundonian. The use of the "eh" sound, as in "Eh hed a peh fur meh teh in Dundeh". Outside of Dundee, even just a mile or two outside the city boundaries, NOBODY speaks like that. However, apart from the Dundonian "plen", there is nothing particularly Dundonian about ""Twa bridies, a plen ane in an ingin ane an a." All the rest of it is just Scots, certainly the kind of Scots that is my own native tongue and which is widely spoken throughout the north-east of Scotland. As for bridies, they come originally from Forfar, not Dundee. The origin of the term "bridie" is that King Bridei, king of the Picts (this is serious history, folks) defeated the Angles of Northumbria at the Battle of Dunnichen, near Forfar. (The Angles referred to this battle by the name of Nechtansmere, but it's the same punch-up.) The result of this battle was that Pictland/Alba/Scotland did not come under Northumbrian rule, and, as part of the celebrations, the folk of Forfar came up with a pie in the shape of a half-moon, King Bridei's symbol.

You could perhaps describe Dundonian as a dialect. But as for Scots, it is a language. Catalan is related to both Spanish and French, but it is a language. Why? Because the Catalan government says so. Norwegian and Swedish are mutually understandable when spoken slowly, yet Norwegian is not a dialect of Swedish. Why? Because the government of Norway, which severed its United Kingdom with Sweden in 1905, says so. There are dialects of German that are more different from standard German than Dutch is, and yet they are dialects and Dutch is a language. Why? Because the Dutch government says so. Scots is a language. Hoo come? Ciz we bluidy weel say so.

carol · Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:31 am Post subject:

I saw a Dundonian lad for a few months and found the dialogue quite sexy and he definitely had a broad accent. I wouldn't like to hear it high pitched though Shocked

There were some words I had difficulty in understanding.

Our local accent is quite guffy and I'm having to correct my kids all the time.

As for my accent it's a Heinz 57 variety, very very saucy Very Happy

On a serious note my dad a Scot (or a Jock as the Taffies used to call us) was in a Welsh regiment for 22 years, so I was brought up all over the place (well literally dragged Confused

) and my accent can only be describe as different Rolling Eyes

Also got some Italian blood flowing through my veins Wink

regards

Carol

RadgeJougal · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 978

Don't feed the Coull (or his ego) - he'll rabbit on forever. And he's as mad as a hatter.

carol · Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject:

it's what I call social conversation RJ it does occur occasionally between myself and Dave Rolling Eyes

Can't quite picture Dave as a rabbit though albino

regards

Carol

RadgeJougal · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 978

Probably more a rabid ferret instead Carol. - Radgie

carol · Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject:

frothy man Razz

ooooooooooh Radgie you are awful but I like you Wink

Do I know you?

regards

Carol

RadgeJougal · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 978

No sayn.

carol · Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:51 am Post subject:

Radgie you intrigue me Smile

I think we've killed Dave's topic Shocked

regards

Carol

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Carol wrote "got some Italian blood flowing through my veins" - you've got something in common with my American wife, then. Although her granny on her dad's side was Scottish, she has an Italian grandparent on her mother's side, and my mother-in-law does Italian cooking.

Carol also wrote "my dad a Scot (or a Jock as the Taffies used to call us) was in a Welsh regiment for 22 years, so I was brought up all over the place" - in my case, joining the military for five years at age seventeen had the effect of forcing me to speak more "proper English", simply in order to be understood. But I can still revert to my original accent quite easily, depending on who I'm speaking to.

Carol also wrote "I think we've killed Dave's topic" - I'm not bothered if folk don't want to discuss dialects and languages, the differences between them, and the relation between them. I said what I had to say on the subject. My view is that the difference between a "dialect" and a "language" is not linguistic, but political. A language is a dialect with official backing. If nobody is able to argue with my thesis, that's perfectly okay with me.

Holebender · Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject:

I have read that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.
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azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 4291

You are right Dave, sometimes it matters not if someone wants to discuss a topic or not as long as you get your thoughts out and post them on the forum.

That's the beauty of this type of communication (the forum). Once it's written down, it's stored and recorded and people can read it for as long as the forum functions. We've almost 45,000 posts now, imagine all the data, figures, opinions etc. that are stored on the system now and are only a click away using the 'search' function?
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carol · Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject:

I've traced back old posts and thought OMG did I actually write that! Rolling Eyes

Carol

Babygael · Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:09 am Post subject:

Azzuri is th' best most democratic dude ever and he has BG"s support always!

Weel whit wis i supposed tae say?

I mean, he puts up wi' my Razz

sh&^ an' ah loves him! Laughing

mairead · Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:26 am Post subject:

aye, BG,

And what would be the point of any forum if people were not allowed to post their thoughts and opinions. I actually found Dave Coull's post quite interesting.
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Anthropos · Helping with the Count Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 323

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Anthropos wrote (in response to me) "why not say Dundonian is a language and it will be?"

Well, for one thing, because, in my particular case, I have no desire to promote Dundonian. Now, some of my best friends are Dundonian, but, sorry folks, I'm just not very keen on the sound of that "Eh hed a peh fur meh teh in Dundeh" stuff. Much of what gets described as "Dundonian" is nothing of the sort, it is just Scots, of a type that is widely spoken throughout Angus, or the north east of Scotland, or indeed even wider than that. The ONLY thing that is peculiarly Dundonian, the "eh" sound, I personally do not find a delight to my lugs.

"it is a variety of English rather than a separate language" - Ach, ah dinna ken fa's echt ye, ye dinna ken fit ye're haverin aboot. Ah canna be trauchled wi ye, it's owre muckle o a scunner.

RadgeJougal · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 978

Don't feed the troll (DC)

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Since the poster who hides behind the false name Radge Jougal (which, incidentally, means "angry dog", or "mad dog") has accused me of being a "troll", it is worth examining what that accusation means. So I looked this word up in Wikipedia, and found :

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"In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who intentionally posts messages about sensitive topics constructed to cause controversy in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET groups in order to bait users into responding. They may also plant images and data on networks that others may find disturbing in order to cause confrontation.

More specifically a troll is an insult or accusation made against a poster. It would be highly unusual for any internet poster to claim the title of troll, rather a community member may try to deflate a post that is controversial or thought provoking by referring to it as a 'troll'. In usage troll is more of an insult like 'jerk'.

To call someone a troll is to say that any dispute over a post is not valid not because the issues raised are not valid, but to claim the intent of the poster invalidates the post. As a speech act the term troll is generally used as an ad hominem argument, attacking the poster rather than the content or issues of the post."

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The accusation is false for several reasons.

(1) While I certainly do post about issues which can be controversial, I never seek to be controversial for its own sake. That is to say, I do not express controversial views merely in order to be controversial. All of the views which I express really are my own considered views. I don't seek to shock anybody.

(2) The bit about "to bait users into responding" is false. I don't give a damn whether people respond to me or not. If my version of things is allowed to be stated without being challenged, that is perfectly okay with me. If it remains unchallenged, then my view will always be there, on the record, without challenge. That is true of this particular post, of course. But it is also okay with me if people _do_ respond. I really don't mind, either way.

(3) I haven't planted any images or data that others may find disturbing. In fact, I haven't planted any images at all.

Note the second part of the Wikipedia definition : to call somebody a "troll" is an insult. In fact, calling somebody a "troll" can itself be an example of "trolling", that is, an example of something posted deliberately "in order to bait users into responding". It could be said (though not by me, since I never use this term, except when quoting others) that, by responding to the accusation, I may be the one "feeding the troll" in this case. However, my view is that false accusations should be challenged, otherwise they can appear in the record to be the unchallenged truth.

Note also the third part of this Wikipedia definition, "To call someone a troll is to say that any dispute over a post is not valid because the issues raised are not valid". The poster who hides behind the false name Radge Jougal ("Angry Dog") is saying that it is not valid to discuss the meaning of dialect and language, the differences between these, and the reasons for these differences. "Angry Dog" is, in fact, seeking to supress free and open discussion.

Note the final part of the Wikipedia definition "As a speech act the term troll is generally used as an ad hominem argument, attacking the poster rather than the content or issues of the post". In other words, in footballing terms, it is going for the man, rather than the ball. It is quite possible that this post of mine will draw a response which is a deliberate foul, rather than a response to the actual content or the issues.

carol · Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject:

Dave a troll brings back memories, one of my favourite playthings as a kid, don't think there's a resemblance with you though Shocked

Holebender · Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: