Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

Hi. I am writing from the NPA, the Northumbrian people's alliance. We are a pressure group for Northumbrian independence. Northumbria was cruelly annexed by King Alfred about 1000 years ago and then partitioned with Scotland. We are angry and we want our 'FREEDOM' back. Our historic heartland runs from the Humber up to the Forth and our modern population is around 10 million. We are a proud race of mixed Brythonic Celt, Danish Angle and viking stock. Some of us share Scots and Pictish ancestry too. We have our own language (spoken by about 0.1% of us, but enough to warrant a few million in UK subsidies) and we have our own Northumbrian dialect which is very different to common English.

Unfortunately we are going to also need back the Lothians and Edinburgh, historic capital of our region of Bernicia before Scottish colonial expansionism took it from us. We suggest therefore that you move the 'Scottish' capital to Glasgow, or even better Perth, cos Glasgow used to be ours too and we might want it back - alternatively just go back to Ireland and leave the land that you so cruelly colonised. For me the saltire is just a blood-smudged banner of oppression. You should be ashamed to fly it.

All we need now is a prominent MP to rise to PM fight our cause. We would have had Tony Blair but he's on your side.

Mctosh45 · Helping with the Count Joined: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 316

Very well Luke, we (Scotland) will have back Cumbria and Man Laughing

SORTED!

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Holebender · Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:46 am Post subject:

You only harm your cause by making unreasonable demands of potential allies. Scots would naturally tend to support your case, but not once you start with your anti-Scottish rant.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

Ehem, sorry I forgot you have a monopoly on ranting Smile

??

Deal - you can have Cumbria in a fair exchange for the Lothians. At least one of you has studied history. Let's try and make it more peaceful than the India/Pakistan partition ok.

Though I would be careful with Cumbria cos you might stir up some Strathclyde nationalism and find yourself in trouble.

We make no claim on Man, but you will have to sort that out with the Manx, since they are de facto independent already.

babykitten · Activist Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 150

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

First of all, I never take part in on-line voting of any kind. I have seen dozens of "polls" here on the Our Scotland forum, and I have never taken part in any of them. Even with the more sensible sounding ones, the results are meaningless. The "results" of this one will be even more meaningless than usual.

Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

I am actually a democrat and I do believe in self-determination, I believe in referenda very much. What I am illustrating here is that what "binds" you together as a Scottish nation is the same thing that binds the UK together. Ultimately I believe there is a British people, diverse from one end to the other, from city to city, but made of pretty much the same stuff. Defining Scotland, or any part of the UK as separate is possible, but is arbitrary, a construct of history (and fantasised history too) and political PR. Borders and boundaries are accidents of history. Just because they existed 300 years ago doesn not mean they are relevant any more. I don't actually believe in England either. I don't believe a Northumbrian is more closely a correlative of Dorset as to Ayrshire. As evidence realise that the 'English' identity pretty much disappeared and is only now coming back as a response to Scottish and Welsh nationalism. No-one flew St George crosses 20 years ago!

Ultimately I am sad, because a) (believe it or not, I LIKE (I would say love, but I might cry) Scotland and its people - and many 'English' people do. and b) because Scotland is undertaking this venture for the wrong reasons. The lie is that Scotland can be independent within the EU. It is not true. It will merely become a minor region of the EU superstate with laws not made in Holyrood, but in Brussels (which is not at all democratic by the way).
I know it would not be any worse than the current situation and it would give some temporary satisfaction to that caucus within the nationalist movement who harbour a grudge (real or imagined) against the 'English', but I prefer the British people to stick together and get out of the EU - and really be independent!!! I fear without Scotland there is no UK and no chance to regain that independence.
I am sure generations to come will look back and see this as a much worse sell out than 1707.

As for the NPA, it is not real, but there are small movements that share the ambition, and if enough people were to subscribe to the arbitrary resurrection of Northumbria as a nation state, the territorial claim would be genuine - as genuine as the Scottish claim for independence.

If you are interested in this line check out the insightful comments on:
http://www.currybet.net/cbet_blog/2008/10/fscon.php

Holebender · Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject:

Well no, because Scotland exists as a legal jurisdiction with (now) its own legislature. Northumbria exists, but has absolutely no case for claiming any territories outwith its present boundaries.

Your whole case seems to be based on sentiment and self-interest. You want Scotland to be tied to the UK as you see it as some sort of benefit for England. What exactly does Scotland get out of your UK?

Quite frankly, I'm tired of people like you using Scotland for your own purposes without any real understanding of or interest in what is good for Scotland.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

Utterly untrue. Your claim is justifiable regarding Scottish Nationalism - that seems to be entirely a self-centred self-obsessed feeding frenzy for whatever suits Scotland and *** the rest of 'em. My intentions are the good of the entire UK, contrary to your claim. Perhaps you cannot grasp the concept because it is alien to you.

Northumbrian nationalism is as real as Northumbrian people want it to be (like Scottish) and if they call out for a legislature of their own they would be as justified as anyone else to have one. And if they want their land back and the city they founded, Edinburgh, and to be reunited to their brothers across the Tweed, they can legitimately claim that. It might require a plebiscite in the Lothians, or a war, but they can legitimately claim it.

And do not resort to rash judgments like "people like you". You do not know me. I attempt to employ reason and fact, not dismissal as a means of discussion.
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"Hath He not made us all in one island, compassed with one sea and of itself by nature indivisible?" James VI/I

Holebender · Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject:

You may "attempt" to use reason and fact, but you fail utterly to use either.

No-one is denying the right of Northumbria to self-determination; I would be happy to support it. It's the fantasy extra-territorial claims which are ridiculous and could only serve to damage your supposed cause. It's these expansionist claims of yours which serve to prove that you are, in fact, not in the least interested in benefitting Northumbria.

If you want to get crude about it, Lothian, etc. are no longer part of Northumbria because the Scots defeated your military ambitions once before. Why should it be any different in future? Do you seriously think you're any cause for concern north of the real border?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

Speculating on military muscle is not really going to get us anywhere but you do raise an interesting fact - history is carved through warfare and to the victor the spoils.

You justify keeping 'Northumbrian' territory on the basis of having won it militarily. But, I am sticking my neck out here - you might also consider military oppression or subjugation entirely wrong when you are on the receiving end.....?

And complain vociferously that you want your 'rights' and 'freedoms' back. I suppose the question I am asking is this - are Scots nationalist prepared to treat others with the same respect they demand for themselves. I am seeing a lot of suggestion that the answer may be largely a "no".
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"Hath He not made us all in one island, compassed with one sea and of itself by nature indivisible?" James VI/I

Holebender · Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject:

Then you have failed another reading and comprehension test. Read again where I wrote

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

This is not a response, and as such a concession as I see no counter argument to my suggestion above, merely, again misguided dismissal. Once again, my interest is all the people of the UK, not a minority group.
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"Hath He not made us all in one island, compassed with one sea and of itself by nature indivisible?" James VI/I

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Holebender · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:17 am Post subject:

Lord Pitsligo · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:48 am Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

"Luke P" (whose name is not Luke, who does not speak on behalf of any Northumbrian grouping, and who has admitted that he lied in the first post under this heading) says

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

The self-confessed liar Luke P. wrote

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 4291

...where's the 'I have no opinion' option int the poll?!

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