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crb012
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An E-Petition to the Prime MinisterRemoved
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Holebender
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What a complete waste of time. You do know that Gordon Brown is the Prime Minister don't you? He has no interest in democracy of any description.
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crb012
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| Holebender wrote: | | What a complete waste of time. You do know that Gordon Brown is the Prime Minister don't you? He has no interest in democracy of any description. |
I don't disagree with the comment on Gordon Brown. However, does it really stop you signing it? The more that sign, the better is will inevitable be.... No?
If you are all for democracy and having a say in a referendum...sign the petition....
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The Lithgae Jambo
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Re: An E-Petition to the Prime Minister | crb012 wrote: | Please view the below petition to the Prime Minister asking him to support the idea that residents of Scotland are permitted a referendum on Scotlands constitutional future: A referendum to include a vote on independence.
If you agree, please please sign it and forward this by email (or other means) to all those whom you think will also support it.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ScotIndepVote/ |
Unlike those submitted to the Scottish Parliament, Downing St petitions are little more than a gimmick and they're also devalued by the use that is sometimes made of them (and that's not a dig at this one).
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crb012
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Re: An E-Petition to the Prime Minister[quote="The Lithgae Jambo"] | crb012 wrote: | Please view the below petition to the Prime Minister asking him to support the idea that residents of Scotland are permitted a referendum on Scotlands constitutional future: A referendum to include a vote on independence.
If you agree, please please sign it and forward this by email (or other means) to all those whom you think will also support it.
Unlike those submitted to the Scottish Parliament, Downing St petitions are little more than a gimmick and they're also devalued by the use that is sometimes made of them (and that's not a dig at this one). |
I take the point, but if you support the idea of a referendum including independence it should not stop you signing the petition
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malcolmtucker
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and when the independence referendum is lost, will you go away?
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Red Justice
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http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html
Another petition in need of signatures
FOR 300 YEARS SCOTLAND HAS BEEN RULED BY A FOREIGN LAND, ENGLAND. I LIKE MANY BELIEVE IT IS TIME WE BECAME A NATION ONCE AGAIN.
WE SHOULD REMOVE OURSELVES FROM THE UNION AND BECOME INDEPENDENT SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR SUCH THINGS AS; THE MILLENNIUM DOME; THE 2012 OLYMPICS; TONY BLAIR'S £5M TRAVEL BILLS.
WE SHOULD BE IN CONTROL OF OUR OWN LAND, OUR OWN RESOURCES, OUR OWN COUNTRY!!!
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, CALL ON THE SNP GOVERNMENT OF SCOTLAND TO ACT NOW AND MAKE SCOTLAND INDEPEDENT AGAIN.
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, WILL TAKE ANY COURSE OF ACTION TO MAKE SURE WE ARE FREE.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html
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malcolmtucker
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[quote="Red Justice"]http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html
Another petition in need of signatures
FOR 300 YEARS SCOTLAND HAS BEEN RULED BY A FOREIGN LAND, ENGLAND. I LIKE MANY BELIEVE IT IS TIME WE BECAME A NATION ONCE AGAIN.
WE SHOULD REMOVE OURSELVES FROM THE UNION AND BECOME INDEPENDENT SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR SUCH THINGS AS; THE MILLENNIUM DOME; THE 2012 OLYMPICS; TONY BLAIR'S £5M TRAVEL BILLS.
WE SHOULD BE IN CONTROL OF OUR OWN LAND, OUR OWN RESOURCES, OUR OWN COUNTRY!!!
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, CALL ON THE SNP GOVERNMENT OF SCOTLAND TO ACT NOW AND MAKE SCOTLAND INDEPEDENT AGAIN.
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, WILL TAKE ANY COURSE OF ACTION TO MAKE SURE WE ARE FREE.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html[/quote]
i take it braveheart was on telly last night?
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Dave Coull
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I'm in favour of independence, I'm in favour of a referendum on independence, and I will NOT sign this petition.
There is a blatant contradiction between the wording of the "petition" and the reasons given for supporting it.
The petition reads | Quote: | | We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Support a motion for Scottish Independence by the Scottish government |
No mention of a referendum.
The petition mentions a "motion" for independence by the Scottish government - something which, despite there being an SNP government in Scotland, has NOT happened, nor is it likely to happen, for the simple reason that Alex Salmond and his colleagues know they have to get public endorsement for independence, endorsement which they have stated they intend to seek through a referendum.
So, the "motion" which the Prime Minister is called upon to "support" does not exist. If the actual meaning of the petition is "calls upon the Prime Minister to support Scottish independence" , fat chance of THAT happening!
This petition is a distraction. The initiative for independence is not going to come through 10 Downing Street!
Although the petition itself doesn't mention a referendum, "more details from petition creator" does. But what it says about a referendum is fatally flawed In fact, the wording is so bad, you have to wonder whether this was drawn up by somebody who is actually trying to sabotage moves to change things. It mentions "REDUCED powers" as one possible option for a referendum. Since even the Tory Party have long since abandoned this discredited position, you have to wonder whether this was drawn up by a diehard Unionist who wants a return to what the Tories USED TO believe in.
The reality is that there are just two options: either independence, or the "more powers" option outlined by the Calman Commission which is supported by the leaders of the Tories, the LibDems, and Labour. Since there are really only two choices, the only reason for cluttering the ballot paper with non-existent alternatives would be to deliberately confuse things. The actual choice could be quite simply put by "Independence - yes or no?", because a "no" vote would, in practice, be a vote for supporting the Calman measures which have the backing of the Tories, LibDems, and Labour.
A further indication that this so-called "petition" may have been drawn up by somebody who is hostile to real change is this: | Quote: | | The people of Scotland, and arguably all residents of the UK (whom such a vote may imapct upon) should have their say on Scottish independence |
When Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, she stated that, although she was fervently in favour of maintaining the Union, and hoped that the Scots would always favour this also, "If the people of Scotland want independence, that is up to the people of Scotland". When John Major was Prime Minister, he repeated what Maggie had said, about being passionately in favour of the Union, but recognising that, if the people of Scotland wanted independence, that would be up to the people of Scotland The possibility now being raised, in support of this "petition", that a majority of "all residents of the UK" might vote in a referendum to DENY independence for Scotland, even if this is supported by the people of Scotland, is a very NEW suggestion to make. And as well as being new, the suggestion that our right of self-determination could be taken away from us by "residents of the UK" as a whole is also a dangerous suggestion to make. As Maggie Thatcher, and John Major, and loads of other folk have said, if the people of Scotland want independence, that's up to the people of Scotland.
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Lord Pitsligo
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| Dave Coull wrote: |
A further indication that this so-called "petition" may have been drawn up by somebody who is hostile to real change is this: | Quote: | | The people of Scotland, and arguably all residents of the UK (whom such a vote may imapct upon) should have their say on Scottish independence |
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Well spotted.
I'm not signing.
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crb012
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| Dave Coull wrote: | I'm in favour of independence, I'm in favour of a referendum on independence, and I will NOT sign this petition.
There is a blatant contradiction between the wording of the "petition" and the reasons given for supporting it.
The petition reads | Quote: | | We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Support a motion for Scottish Independence by the Scottish government |
No mention of a referendum.
The petition mentions a "motion" for independence by the Scottish government - something which, despite there being an SNP government in Scotland, has NOT happened, nor is it likely to happen, for the simple reason that Alex Salmond and his colleagues know they have to get public endorsement for independence, endorsement which they have stated they intend to seek through a referendum.
So, the "motion" which the Prime Minister is called upon to "support" does not exist. If the actual meaning of the petition is "calls upon the Prime Minister to support Scottish independence" , fat chance of THAT happening!
This petition is a distraction. The initiative for independence is not going to come through 10 Downing Street!
Although the petition itself doesn't mention a referendum, "more details from petition creator" does. But what it says about a referendum is fatally flawed In fact, the wording is so bad, you have to wonder whether this was drawn up by somebody who is actually trying to sabotage moves to change things. It mentions "REDUCED powers" as one possible option for a referendum. Since even the Tory Party have long since abandoned this discredited position, you have to wonder whether this was drawn up by a diehard Unionist who wants a return to what the Tories USED TO believe in.
The reality is that there are just two options: either independence, or the "more powers" option outlined by the Calman Commission which is supported by the leaders of the Tories, the LibDems, and Labour. Since there are really only two choices, the only reason for cluttering the ballot paper with non-existent alternatives would be to deliberately confuse things. The actual choice could be quite simply put by "Independence - yes or no?", because a "no" vote would, in practice, be a vote for supporting the Calman measures which have the backing of the Tories, LibDems, and Labour.
A further indication that this so-called "petition" may have been drawn up by somebody who is hostile to real change is this: | Quote: | | The people of Scotland, and arguably all residents of the UK (whom such a vote may imapct upon) should have their say on Scottish independence |
When Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, she stated that, although she was fervently in favour of maintaining the Union, and hoped that the Scots would always favour this also, "If the people of Scotland want independence, that is up to the people of Scotland". When John Major was Prime Minister, he repeated what Maggie had said, about being passionately in favour of the Union, but recognising that, if the people of Scotland wanted independence, that would be up to the people of Scotland The possibility now being raised, in support of this "petition", that a majority of "all residents of the UK" might vote in a referendum to DENY independence for Scotland, even if this is supported by the people of Scotland, is a very NEW suggestion to make. And as well as being new, the suggestion that our right of self-determination could be taken away from us by "residents of the UK" as a whole is also a dangerous suggestion to make. As Maggie Thatcher, and John Major, and loads of other folk have said, if the people of Scotland want independence, that's up to the people of Scotland. |
Yes, I confess, some wording is poor [now that I think of it I am not sure why I even wrote the second sentence you flagged up].
I am not a unionist - far from it.
In terms of the gordon brown supporting a motion, you are right nothing has been put forward yet. As for whether it will - yes, most certainly. However, it will be shot down.
The more I think about it, the more I think that this petition is wrongly placed.
I wrote to the Scottish parliament petition group with a much more carefully worded independence orientated petition. This petitions the parliament, not the government, to support a referendum on independence for Scotland - which is what is needed since the government of the day already support it.
As for Brown - a petition could have 2 million signatures and he wouldnt give a damn
If it succeeds I will post the link which you may be more interested in.
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Holebender
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Speaking as one who has already had an independence referendum petition to the Scottish Parliament rejected out of hand without even being afforded to opportunity to address the committee, I can tell you you're on a hiding to nothing. The Parliament has a Unionist majority and the Public Petitions Committee is packed against you. The best hope is to have the government introduce their referendum bill and dare the Unionists to vote it down.
Just firing off poorly thought out petitions does no good and only feeds the Unionists a little more ammunition. The petition must be carefully discussed and crafted by a group of like-minded individuals before it ever gets anywhere near a website, committee, or whatever. I'm afraid to say you've probably blown your chance by rushing to get your petition in the public domain. It mustn't be a personal vanity project.
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crb012
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| Holebender wrote: | Speaking as one who has already had an independence referendum petition to the Scottish Parliament rejected out of hand without even being afforded to opportunity to address the committee, I can tell you you're on a hiding to nothing. The Parliament has a Unionist majority and the Public Petitions Committee is packed against you. The best hope is to have the government introduce their referendum bill and dare the Unionists to vote it down.
Just firing off poorly thought out petitions does no good and only feeds the Unionists a little more ammunition. The petition must be carefully discussed and crafted by a group of like-minded individuals before it ever gets anywhere near a website, committee, or whatever. I'm afraid to say you've probably blown your chance by rushing to get your petition in the public domain. It mustn't be a personal vanity project. |
Agreed.
I requested the petition removed from the website and discontinued in light of comments made in this forum.
As for your experience with the Scottish parliament then I expect to get no-where. However, I did get an email from them today asking me to clarify the petition.
I put it to them it was a proactive petition asking from the whole parliament to back the proposed bill the SNP plan to table in 2010 for an independence referendum.
time will tell...
Yours,
A horribly embarresed scotsman....
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Dave Coull
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| Holebender wrote: | | Speaking as one who has already had an independence referendum petition to the Scottish Parliament rejected out of hand without even being afforded to opportunity to address the committee, I can tell you you're on a hiding to nothing. The Parliament has a Unionist majority and the Public Petitions Committee is packed against you. |
| crb012 wrote: | | I requested the petition removed from the website and discontinued in light of comments made in this forum. As for your experience with the Scottish parliament then I expect to get no-where. However, I did get an email from them today asking me to clarify the petition. |
So far as I am aware, the Petitions Committee of the Scottish Parliament still has an in-built unionist majority, and since they have already rejected one such petition (a petition which I signed and actively supported) out of hand, without it being discussed by the Parliament as a whole, what's to stop them doing the same with another, similar petition? Quite honestly, the only way the majority of the Petitions Committee might NOT reject it out of hand would be if they thought it was so badly worded, approving it would be to the DISadvantage of independence. In some ways, it might be better to tell them you want to withdraw the petition for the time being, while you think some more about this. However, if you really are going to go ahead with a petition to the Scottish Parliament, then I strongly suggest you discuss this with Holebender, as his was the first name on an independence referendum petition to the Scottish Parliament which was | Quote: | | carefully discussed and crafted by a group of like-minded individuals |
and he has useful experience he could pass on to you. You could contact Holebender by private message, through the Our Scotland forum, without having the embarrassment of what you write being publicly torn to shreds by the likes of me.
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The Lithgae Jambo
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | So far as I am aware, the Petitions Committee of the Scottish Parliament still has an in-built unionist majority, and since they have already rejected one such petition (a petition which I signed and actively supported) out of hand, without it being discussed by the Parliament as a whole, what's to stop them doing the same with another, similar petition? |
Presumably as the Scottish Govt has indicated its intention to introduce a Bill for the referendum in the course of the Parliament, the PP Committee would have no option other than to drop it for exactly the same reason Bendy discovered she would not be able to introduce a Bill.
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Aventinian
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| Red Justice wrote: | http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html
Another petition in need of signatures
FOR 300 YEARS SCOTLAND HAS BEEN RULED BY A FOREIGN LAND, ENGLAND. I LIKE MANY BELIEVE IT IS TIME WE BECAME A NATION ONCE AGAIN.
WE SHOULD REMOVE OURSELVES FROM THE UNION AND BECOME INDEPENDENT SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR SUCH THINGS AS; THE MILLENNIUM DOME; THE 2012 OLYMPICS; TONY BLAIR'S £5M TRAVEL BILLS.
WE SHOULD BE IN CONTROL OF OUR OWN LAND, OUR OWN RESOURCES, OUR OWN COUNTRY!!!
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, CALL ON THE SNP GOVERNMENT OF SCOTLAND TO ACT NOW AND MAKE SCOTLAND INDEPEDENT AGAIN.
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, WILL TAKE ANY COURSE OF ACTION TO MAKE SURE WE ARE FREE.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html |
For someone who claims not to be a nationalist, furthering a petition with an overtly blood-and-soil nationalist (not to mention dull-witted) stance is quite peculiar.
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Red Justice
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Red Justice wrote: | http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html
Another petition in need of signatures
FOR 300 YEARS SCOTLAND HAS BEEN RULED BY A FOREIGN LAND, ENGLAND. I LIKE MANY BELIEVE IT IS TIME WE BECAME A NATION ONCE AGAIN.
WE SHOULD REMOVE OURSELVES FROM THE UNION AND BECOME INDEPENDENT SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR SUCH THINGS AS; THE MILLENNIUM DOME; THE 2012 OLYMPICS; TONY BLAIR'S £5M TRAVEL BILLS.
WE SHOULD BE IN CONTROL OF OUR OWN LAND, OUR OWN RESOURCES, OUR OWN COUNTRY!!!
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, CALL ON THE SNP GOVERNMENT OF SCOTLAND TO ACT NOW AND MAKE SCOTLAND INDEPEDENT AGAIN.
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, WILL TAKE ANY COURSE OF ACTION TO MAKE SURE WE ARE FREE.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html |
For someone who claims not to be a nationalist, furthering a petition with an overtly blood-and-soil nationalist (not to mention dull-witted) stance is quite peculiar. |
I am a Scottish Republican Socialist and support all efforts to secure Scottish independence and ultimately a republic. Why do you see Scottish nationalism in terms of blood-and-soil nationalism but are silent on British nationalism. Anyway I am not a nationalist but a Scottish Republican Socialist that does not fear independence.
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Luke P
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| Red Justice wrote: | http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html
Another petition in need of signatures
FOR 300 YEARS SCOTLAND HAS BEEN RULED BY A FOREIGN LAND, ENGLAND. I LIKE MANY BELIEVE IT IS TIME WE BECAME A NATION ONCE AGAIN.
WE SHOULD REMOVE OURSELVES FROM THE UNION AND BECOME INDEPENDENT SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR SUCH THINGS AS; THE MILLENNIUM DOME; THE 2012 OLYMPICS; TONY BLAIR'S £5M TRAVEL BILLS.
WE SHOULD BE IN CONTROL OF OUR OWN LAND, OUR OWN RESOURCES, OUR OWN COUNTRY!!!
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, CALL ON THE SNP GOVERNMENT OF SCOTLAND TO ACT NOW AND MAKE SCOTLAND INDEPEDENT AGAIN.
WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, WILL TAKE ANY COURSE OF ACTION TO MAKE SURE WE ARE FREE.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/scottish-independence.html |
What a load of fantasy. You should be on Star Trek. The New Labour government is Scottish through and through even though Scotland is one-tenth the size of England. Scotland truly is having its cake and eating it. Ehem, you Scots have done very well out of this union.
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Holebender
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Now you are the fantasy merchant.
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Luke P
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Explain... 
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Holebender
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Very simple. The Labour Party governs the UK because of English voters. The Tories will govern the UK because of English voters. Any party the 85% of the UK's population which lives in England votes for will govern the UK, regardless of where the individual politicians come from. It is utter fantasy to think that the 9% of the UK's population which lives in Scotland has any control over who governs the UK, especially in the absence of any form of proportional voting in UK elections.
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Dave Coull
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| Luke P wrote: | | you Scots have done very well out of this union |
So, Luke, does that mean that, as an English Nationalist, you will be glad to get rid of us?
Or are you trying to argue that we ought to abandon thoughts of independence and be grateful for the United Kingdom?
If it's the former, guess what, we intend to ensure you will soon have your wish. If it's the latter, you have a very peculiar way of trying to win friends and influence people.
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