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Reluctant Hero
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Are Tories coming round to Scottish IndependenceSNP Tactical Voting was reporting on his blog the results of a survey of Tory candidates in 144 of the 220 most winnable seats.
It shows that 46% of them wouldn't be uncomfortable about Scotland becoming independent.
It may be a step too far for us to want a Tory candidate to win, but if those 46% get in, well it will be a little consolation 
http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/...ories-not-uncomfortable-with.html
http://conservativehome.blogs.com...-next-generation-of-tory-mps.html
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Cruachan
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In a completely unscientific way, I would just observe that many friends and work colleagues I talk to here in England - when they even consider the issue at all - are wholly comfortable about Scottish Independence. It simply is not a "die in the ditch" issue for most people in England. It is those with vested interests, UK civil servants, MPs, and technocrats that argue against it most vehemently. (and BBC editiors and journalists!)
"Mostly, comments range from "If thats what they want, why don't they get on with it" to "About time too, good riddance, but don't come running back to us when it all goes wrong".
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calum
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True, vested interests from some, esepcially in the media are holding us back.
The Scotsman has been ridiculous recently, and in particular David Maddox. Every day sees another scare story about the SNP in the run up to the Glasgow by election.
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Aventinian
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Re: Are Tories coming round to Scottish Independence | Reluctant Hero wrote: | SNP Tactical Voting was reporting on his blog the results of a survey of Tory candidates in 144 of the 220 most winnable seats.
It shows that 46% of them wouldn't be uncomfortable about Scotland becoming independent.
It may be a step too far for us to want a Tory candidate to win, but if those 46% get in, well it will be a little consolation |
An absolute nonsense of a poll. Even I wouldn't have chosen "the Union should be defended at all costs". That's, bluntly, substituting institutions for ideology: if a greater threat to my individual liberty than Scottish Nationalism arose, I'd be more concerned about fighting that.
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Tartan Tory
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Although not in a coalition, the Tories did use their power of balance to get the SNP into power here in E Ayrs in return for Cllr. Stephanie Young being made provost.
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Corby Boy
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I voted Tory in the recent local elections, I am all for Scottish independence.
To be fair though my vote was purely tactical. 
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Aventinian
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| Corby Boy wrote: | I voted Tory in the recent local elections, I am all for Scottish independence.
To be fair though my vote was purely tactical. |
...and it's probably also worth emphasising that you live in England too!
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Holebender
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Why? Aren't we all one big happy family of Britons?
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Corby Boy
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Av,
Of course. The easiest way to dislodge Labour.
Greater the chance of the SNP increasing their vote share and a referendum being held in due course.
Interestingly, most people down here think Scotland is on its way out of the union.. and to many good riddance.
The cherished union is on borrowed time, whichever way you cut it.
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Aventinian
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| Corby Boy wrote: | | The cherished union is on borrowed time, whichever way you cut it. |
Funny, considering support for independence seems to be dropping and the possibility of a referendum on it has almost entirely evaporated.
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Corby Boy
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Which poll are you going to quote?
The cultural split is there. The English don't indentify with Britain anymore than Scots do these days.
Lets test it with a referendum in Scotland and hey one in England too.
They're mighty p*ssed off with the Scottish Raj. Mr Broon is still a dour Scot in English eyes despite his unionist bluster.
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Dave Coull
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| Corby Boy wrote: | | Lets test it with a referendum in Scotland and hey one in England too. |
If some people in England want a referendum on scrapping the United Kingdom, then let THEM campaign for one. So far, that campaign hasn't even started. Meanwhile, here in Scotland, some of us have been campaigning for a referendum on independence for quite a few years, and the present Scottish Government is officially committed to holding one next year. That Scottish referendum must be held ANYWAY, not "in tandem", and regardless of any referendum that may, or may not, eventually be held at some point in the future in England.
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frankly_francophone
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Indifferent but not "comfortable"Indifferent towards Scotland they certainly are, of course, but no one in England is very likely to be very "comfortable" about Scottish independence, in point of fact, when it becomes apparent that most of the North Sea oil and gas reserves and all of the Hatton Rockall Basin oil and gas reserves that England is going to stand in dire need of, especially if the economic Crisis moves into 'W double dip' mode, will be going to independent Scotland.
For more on 'W double dip' and why we should be taking it seriously, turn to
http://frankly.yolasite.com/
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Aventinian
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| Corby Boy wrote: | | The cultural split is there. The English don't indentify with Britain anymore than Scots do these days. |
So that means that the overwhelming majority do so identify - even a good proportion of Nationalists too?
Seems quite fine to me, not that I'm particularly bothered what culture people adhere to. In England particularly ethnic minorities are far more likely to identify with being British - yet they are, presumably, the most culturally distinct groups in this country.
| Quote: | | They're mighty p*ssed off with the Scottish Raj. Mr Broon is still a dour Scot in English eyes despite his unionist bluster. |
So? William Hague was seen as a baldy Yorkshireman when he was leader of the Tories; Michael Howard was seen as some sort of ex-Transylvanian vampire like character; Prescott was seen as a chippy Northern lout. I don't see what that's supposed to tell us other than that we still quite like stereotypes.
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Dave Coull
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| Aventinian wrote: | | not that I'm particularly bothered what culture people adhere to. |
For once, we are in at least partial agreement. Mind you, that word "culture" can hide a multitude of sins. For instance, when people make a big deal of identifying themselves as "white". How anybody can take pride in something so arbitrary and accidental as skin colouring baffles me, and if their "culture" includes the likes of the KKK I find that extremely distasteful. But apart from that sort of thing, I'm not particularly bothered what culture people adhere to.
Here in Scotland, the largest "identity" grouping consists of folk who identify themselves as Scottish first, and British second. This group is larger than the group which identifies themselves only as Scottish (and not British), it is larger than the group which identifies themselves as equally British and Scottish, it is larger than the group which identifies themselves as British first and Scottish second, and it is certainly much larger than the group which identifies themselves as British (and not Scottish). But as far as I'm concerned, these identity questions are far less important than a simple political question: which way will they vote when we have a referendum on independence? My bet is that most of those who identify themselves as Scottish first and British second, and even a lot of those who identify themselves as equally British and Scottish, will vote for independence.
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wisnaeme
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Are the Tories whit?
Oh aye, surely.
... and he11 will freeze over first.
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Aventinian
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Here in Scotland, the largest "identity" grouping consists of folk who identify themselves as Scottish first, and British second. This group is larger than the group which identifies themselves only as Scottish (and not British), it is larger than the group which identifies themselves as equally British and Scottish, it is larger than the group which identifies themselves as British first and Scottish second, and it is certainly much larger than the group which identifies themselves as British (and not Scottish). But as far as I'm concerned, these identity questions are far less important than a simple political question: which way will they vote when we have a referendum on independence? My bet is that most of those who identify themselves as Scottish first and British second, and even a lot of those who identify themselves as equally British and Scottish, will vote for independence. |
Why should they? Frankly put, the nationalist identity politics and 'them vs us' mentality isn't going to work on people who see themselves as British.
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Holebender
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Excuse me? Don't you realise that those who see themselves as British are indulging in a nationalist identity? A British identity. When it comes to non-British people there are none so vehement at the 'them versus us' mentality than the British.
You are unbelievably blind about this whole British nationalist thing. Take a look in a mirror some time and at least try to debate honestly.
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Dave Coull
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| I wrote: | | Here in Scotland, the largest "identity" grouping consists of folk who identify themselves as Scottish first, and British second. This group is larger than the group which identifies themselves only as Scottish (and not British), it is larger than the group which identifies themselves as equally British and Scottish, it is larger than the group which identifies themselves as British first and Scottish second, and it is certainly much larger than the group which identifies themselves as British (and not Scottish). But as far as I'm concerned, these identity questions are far less important than a simple political question: which way will they vote when we have a referendum on independence? My bet is that most of those who identify themselves as Scottish first and British second, and even a lot of those who identify themselves as equally British and Scottish, will vote for independence. |
| Aventinian wrote: | | Why should they? |
Well of course there are some folk (such as yourself) who are diehard unionists, so I'm not going to waste any time on trying to convince YOU as to why you should. But a significant percentage of those Scots who consider themselves in some sense "British" are not diehard unionists. To repeat, the largest single "identity" grouping in Scotland consists of those who consider themselves SCOTTISH first, and British second. In my view, a very large number of them will vote for independence in a referendum. I think we can take it for granted which way the second largest grouping, those who consider themselves entirely Scottish, will vote. These two groupings between them will, in my view, produce a majority. However, I also think that some of the smaller grouping who consider themselves EQUALLY Scottish and British will vote for independence (because they think their "Britishness" would not cease with independence). That should add up to a very comfortable majority for independence. Like I said, | Quote: | | My bet is that most of those who identify themselves as Scottish first and British second, and even a lot of those who identify themselves as equally British and Scottish, will vote for independence. |
Now, OF COURSE you don't agree. But there is really only one way of proving my bet wrong........................
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Aventinian
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| Holebender wrote: | | Excuse me? Don't you realise that those who see themselves as British are indulging in a nationalist identity? A British identity. When it comes to non-British people there are none so vehement at the 'them versus us' mentality than the British. |
A national identity has no more to do with nationalism than being a certain race has to do with racism. Yes, of course there are British nationalists. My point still holds entirely true for them in regards to Scottish nationalism. If you want, you can happily add the word 'Scottish' in before 'nationalism' in my last post.
Again though I'll make the old point: this conflict of people with exactly the same ideology completely undermines the logical credibility of nationalist politics.
| Quote: | | You are unbelievably blind about this whole British nationalist thing. |
Nope, I have in fact addressed the point you make in this post countless times. The simple fact is that you, and others like you, enjoy highlighting it and pretending I don't address it whenever the flimsiest of excuses arise.
| Quote: | | Take a look in a mirror some time and at least try to debate honestly. |
Why? I doubt I'll find any British nationalists in it.
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Aventinian
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Well of course there are some folk (such as yourself) who are diehard unionists, so I'm not going to waste any time on trying to convince YOU as to why you should. But a significant percentage of those Scots who consider themselves in some sense "British" are not diehard unionists. |
I wouldn't expect you to try and convert me, indeed I'd likely become very bored indeed if you did.
Whilst not die-hard unionists, you have not addressed my point that they simply and logically will not buy into Scottish nationalism because nationalism requires a rejection of mixed loyalties in order to suggest that any power being held by 'foreigners' is illegitimate.
| Quote: | | To repeat, the largest single "identity" grouping in Scotland consists of those who consider themselves SCOTTISH first, and British second. |
No it isn't, the largest group consider themselves 'more Scottish than British', there is no numbering of these identities, expressed or implied.
| Quote: | | In my view, a very large number of them will vote for independence in a referendum. I think we can take it for granted which way the second largest grouping, those who consider themselves entirely Scottish, will vote. |
I hardly think that's a given. I don't profess to have a European identity, but I still support the EU. They may simply - and I know this is difficult for nationalists to understand - not believe in nationalist politics despite their identity.
| Quote: | | But there is really only one way of proving my bet wrong........................ |
Well, I suppose then it's entirely unlikely you'll ever have that definitive proof. Strange how you then reject polling evidence on the question of independence, but are quite happy to use it for your own ends when it comes to questions of identity.
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Dave Coull
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| Aventinian wrote: | | the largest group consider themselves 'more Scottish than British', there is no numbering of these identities, expressed or implied. |
So-called opinion polls, by their selective and subjective nature, contain a lot of guesswork. That applies also to the "polls" on identity. However, having said that, I will take issue on this assertion of yours. Let's leave aside for the moment all questions of evidence for what is, or is not, the largest group. If SOME people consider themselves MORE Scottish than British, then OF COURSE that implies an order of ranking. Go and look up the word "more" in the dictionary if you don't believe me.
Aventinian wrote that I | Quote: | | reject polling evidence on the question of independence |
The only "poll" I recognise is an actual referendum. The trouble with the exercises which you call "polls" is that they aren't. Each dictionary seems to give several different meanings for the word "poll", different dictionaries seem to give their several different meanings in different orders of priority, and, in any case, it is far from clear that the exercises which you call "polls" can be regarded as falling legitimately within any meaningful definition of the word. As well as "the process of voting in an election", and "a record of the number of votes", my dictionary does give "an opinion poll" as one of the meanings of "poll". But that doesn't really get us any further forward, because it uses the word "poll" to define the word "poll", a method of definition which is circular and imprecise. The Cambridge On-Line Dictionary does give two meanings relating to the kind of exercises which you claim are "polls": - | Quote: | poll (OPINION)
noun
a study in which people are asked for their opinions about a subject or person:
straw poll
noun
an unofficial vote which is taken to discover what people think about an idea or problem or how they intend to vote in an election |
But note that ALL so-called opinion polls are, in effect, by definition, "straw polls" - that is , they are ALL "unofficial votes which are taken to discover what people think about an idea or problem or how they intend to vote in an election". Since they are all straw polls, all "unofficial", my point about them being "inadmissable evidence" stands. The only way to have an opinion poll on the subject of Independence or Union which is NOT a straw poll, the only way to have an opinion poll on the subject of Union or Independence whose results will carry real weight, is for the Scottish Parliament to officially conduct an opinion poll in which every person who is on the electoral register in Scotland has the opportunity to express an opinion for Independence, or for Union. That is precisely what I advocate, and that is precisely what you reject. | Aventinian wrote: | | quite happy to use it for your own ends when it comes to questions of identity. |
Like I said in a previous post | Quote: | | as far as I'm concerned, these identity questions are far less important than a simple political question: which way will they vote when we have a referendum on independence? |
and there is only one way to settle that question. Hold the referendum.
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Aventinian
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Whether you consider the question important or not, you still were happy to use polling evidence to gauge popular feeling on an issue. I think you've just rather blatantly contradicted your stance, which was absurd in the first place.
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Dave Coull
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| Aventinian wrote: | | you've just rather blatantly contradicted your stance |
I don't think so. I gave MY assessment of what is the largest identity grouping in Scotland, and my assessment of what is the second largest grouping, etc. I am entitled to make assessments, or even wild guesses. The only way to prove prove me wrong would be through a referendum. In the very same post as the one in which you claim I contradicted my stance, I said | Quote: | | as far as I'm concerned, these identity questions are far less important than a simple political question: which way will they vote when we have a referendum on independence? |
so, it is my consistent stance that the only meaningful way to settle things is through a referendum.
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Aventinian
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | I don't think so. I gave MY assessment of what is the largest identity grouping in Scotland, and my assessment of what is the second largest grouping, etc. I am entitled to make assessments, or even wild guesses. |
On what basis are your 'assessments' any different to wild guesses?
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Dave Coull
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| I wrote: | | I am entitled to make assessments, or even wild guesses. The only way to prove prove me wrong would be through a referendum. |
| Aventinian wrote: | | On what basis are your 'assessments' any different to wild guesses? |
I never claimed they were, and, in any case, that's a rather subjective question! Obviously I would consider that I have made a brilliant assessment based on my extremely wide personal experience, whereas YOU might consider I made a wild guess. But that's really a bit beside the point. Like I said, I'm entitled to make assessments, or even wild guesses. The ONLY way to prove me wrong is through a referendum.
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