parkhead_rfb
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billy reid rfb (now named parkhead rfb) old bass drumyi wouldnt get away with this on marches anymore 
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Morph
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why postthis on an independance website other than to cause problems
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parkhead_rfb
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| Morph wrote: | | why postthis on an independance website other than to cause problems |
its a part of my bands history.
if others dont like it then frankly my dear i dont give a damn.
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Morph
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it has nothing to do with Irish or UK politics, i feel it would be better in the history section you coul d start a post in there about your bands history
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parkhead_rfb
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| Morph wrote: | | it has nothing to do with Irish or UK politics, i feel it would be better in the history section you coul d start a post in there about your bands history |
meybe your right.
it is an irish republican band though and so definitely is connected to irish politics.
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Morph
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but it serves no discussion within an Irish political context, if this was in your history section it would be fine, i can move it if you wish?
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parkhead_rfb
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| Morph wrote: | | but it serves no discussion within an Irish political context, if this was in your history section it would be fine, i can move it if you wish? |
move it if you feel its a better section for it. am not bothered either way.
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Cymro
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Who was Billy Reid ? What was the reason for the name change?
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parkhead_rfb
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| Cymro wrote: | | Who was Billy Reid ? What was the reason for the name change? |
billy reid was a provisional ira volunteer from north belfast. he was killed by the british army while on active service in the 70's.
the name changed when the band decided they no longer wanted to be associated with the provisional movement. we decided to change the name at that point as he was a provisional volunteer and his family remained provisional supporters.
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Cymro
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Aaah right interesting thanks for that. So what was the reason why the banded opted to take his name then? Did he have links with Glasgow ? Why did you stop linking yourselves with the Provos?
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parkhead_rfb
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| Cymro wrote: | | Aaah right interesting thanks for that. So what was the reason why the banded opted to take his name then? Did he have links with Glasgow ? Why did you stop linking yourselves with the Provos? |
its a tradition of many bands to take the name of volunteers.
in glasgow there have been bands like the vol tom williams, vol sean mcilvenna etc etc. its a tribute to volunteers.
there were many issues behind the reason but at the heart of it was the decision that the west of scotland band alliance (our umbrella group) was to be disbanded and a new organisation set up. there were reasons behind this which i wont go into on here that we were not happy with.
since then i would have withdrawn my support anyway in view of their support for policing and the issue of weapons.
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Cymro
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fair enough. Though your last point is worrying - you don't agree with decommissioning of weapons? I can understand the Policing issue raising fears, but personally I think Sinn Fein has taken the best decision in that respect.
I'd actually be far more likely to support Sinn Fein now they are following a peaceful path and brining the PIRA with them than I would have in the past if I lived in NI.
What would your opinions be on the likes of Republican Sinn Fein then?
Shame you are unwilling to explain the decision to disband your umbrella group. Is this linked to your opinions on the change of path by the Provisional movement ?
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parkhead_rfb
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i have a lot of respect for republican sinn fein. they have stuck to their republican principles whatever personal and political problems that has given them. they also have a man whos republican credentials could never be doubted as their leader.
what you also have to remember about rsf is that they havent recently appeared as opposition to the GFA they have been in existence sinc 1986 when sf decided to take seats in the 26 country government. some people mistakenly think they have only appeared recently.
I disagree with their refusal to take part in elections etc but like i say i have to admire their determination.
on the arms issue i feel its just a part of a long line of values that sf have shed far too easily. at the time when those weapons were taken out of use many far more important parts of the GFA hadnt been implimented and lets also not forget the issue of loyalist gones which weirdly doesnt seem to be an issue at all.
their acceptance of policing is a joke imo and to be honest i wouldnt even call them a republican party anymore, they are turning swiflty into the Stoop Down Low Party.
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Cymro
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Parkie, I honestly think you are living in a fantasy world here. What in reality did an armed struggle achieve? Direct rule, suffering, negative views of republicanism, a divided society. And more importantly, the prospect of an United Ireland a far far dream.
And positives? Not that I can see.
I appreciate why Republican Sinn Fein came into existance, but in the modern Northern Ireland I see them as nothing but a fantasy party. They, like you see some romantacism in the armed struggle - Irish men standing up and fighting the might of the British State. However, they have next to no support amongst supporters of Republicanism, something Sinn Fein on the other hand do have.
Sinn Fein, far from selling out are merely reflecting the modern demands of Republicans - they don't want bombings, they don't want street fights.
I have no problem with people remembering and even being proud in past campaigns by the IRA - I found the Republican Memorials in areas like Clonnard fascinating while I was there. But, that belongs in the past now. There wheren't defeated, they've merely evolved.
Regarding Policing, had this decision been taken behind closed doors by the Sinn Fein executuve you've have a point, but again this was something supported by members, which in itself came about because of pressure by normal supporters of Republicanism. What chance does Policing in Northern Ireland have of being completely neutral if the main Republican Party don't take the opportunity to play a part in running it?
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parkhead_rfb
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the reason the mjority supported it is that in the run up to it being accepted and since the gfa in genral sf have been sidelining key figures who were liable to oppose certain moves and who carried sway within the party.
Groups like RSF and the IRSM also do have significant and very active membership in many areas. obviously this cant be shown in voting as they dont actually stand. many republicans then are left with no choice but no vote sf wel either that or not vote at all.
do you actually read any of RSF etc's material or are you commentating based on snippets here and there? i regularly read saiorse (the rsf paper) and the plough (the IRSM's paper).
As I have also stated on here the republican movements in the whole realised that agreement would be better than armed conflict as far back as the early 70's but the british were never ready to negotiate in any meaningful manner and instead saw any ceasefires as chances to break the IRA etc. no doubt the republican movement by and large have made changes to what they are now willing to accept but peace could have been achieved a whole lot sooner had the british government taken a sensible approach to the six counties in the first place.
on your point of who has what support you will find that at the time the border campaigns had little or no support but these men are now viewed as heroes by the republican movement and in most nationalist communities. perhaps hindsight is a woderfull thing but then the more middle class nationalists also like a little time to pass on revolutionaries.
you yourself seem that kind of chap. happy to label the ira of today terrorists but i doubt probably not so harsh on those who fought in 1916 and the campaigns afterwars when essentially they were fighting the same war. free staters are particularly guilty of this.
its not always about what support you have or how many votes sometimes people have principles and they stick to them whatever the costs to themselves. i thought we wanted more of that in politics so i wont critizise groups like rsf for it.
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Cymro
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| Quote: | | the reason the mjority supported it is that in the run up to it being accepted and since the gfa in genral sf have been sidelining key figures who were liable to oppose certain moves and who carried sway within the party. |
A convenient excuse I'm afraid. People get sidelined because their opinions no longer reflect that of the party. A Party can try and control opinions as much as it likes, however they tend to fail. We're seeing the same sort of thing here in Wales. Labour has some people who oppose devolution and have highly negative views of the language, however they realise to get support in key areas these 'voices' can't be given to high a placing.
If the general membership, or voters of Sinn Fein opposed the marginalisation of key speakers this would be made pretty clear.
| Quote: | | Groups like RSF and the IRSM also do have significant and very active membership in many areas. obviously this cant be shown in voting as they dont actually stand. many republicans then are left with no choice but no vote sf wel either that or not vote at all. |
Or could it not be that it suits them not to stand in elections because they don't want to highlight the lack of support they have?
| Quote: | | do you actually read any of RSF etc's material or are you commentating based on snippets here and there? i regularly read saiorse (the rsf paper) and the plough (the IRSM's paper). |
Good for you. I don't read them and neither have I said I do. But where was I wrong in what I said about them - they continue to support an armed struggle, and they are at best marginal in terms of support.
| Quote: | | As I have also stated on here the republican movements in the whole realised that agreement would be better than armed conflict as far back as the early 70's but the british were never ready to negotiate in any meaningful manner and instead saw any ceasefires as chances to break the IRA etc. no doubt the republican movement by and large have made changes to what they are now willing to accept but peace could have been achieved a whole lot sooner had the british government taken a sensible approach to the six counties in the first place. |
This has nothing to do with what is being discussed here though. The Armed Struggle didn't achieve anything. Regardless of the behaviour of the British Government in 2007 we have a meaningfull peace process. Policing is now a devolved issue, and the Military Operation has come to an end.
Only with this path will an United Ireland be achieved. All an armed struggle does is prolong the status quo.
| Quote: | | on your point of who has what support you will find that at the time the border campaigns had little or no support but these men are now viewed as heroes by the republican movement and in most nationalist communities. perhaps hindsight is a woderfull thing but then the more middle class nationalists also like a little time to pass on revolutionaries. |
Not just the border campaign, the Easter Uprising was a disaster and baddly thought out. Don't think you'll find a higher rated 'hero' than the likes of Padraig Pearse do you?
The border campaign was deemed a failure as it highlighted a lot of flaws in how the IRA worked as an organisation and was deemed to be a waste of resources. The concept of an armed struggle was still very much alive in many quarters though. On the other had the RIRA etc are deemed to be a bunch of fantasists. People like the Omah Bomber (who ever he really is) are unlikely to be held with the same high regard as those involved in the Border Campagin and even the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness by any element of the Republican Movement.
| Quote: | | you yourself seem that kind of chap. happy to label the ira of today terrorists but i doubt probably not so harsh on those who fought in 1916 and the campaigns afterwars when essentially they were fighting the same war. free staters are particularly guilty of this. |
Oh I thought you where calling me a "kind chap". With regards to the difference between 1916 and 2007 well the whole polical make up is now different. In 2007 Catholics in Northern Ireland have certain rights that 1916 Ireland didn't enjoy, or even 1960 Northern Ireland, Republicans are in power and aren't kept out by Unionists. Also the nature of political campaigning has now changed not only in Ireland but globaly since 1916. The world has changed it's just you don't want to see that.
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parkhead_rfb
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The IRSM have actually stated they dont see an armed movement as being the correct campaign to take in todays climate. they recognise that for such a movement to suceed it needs the backing of a much wider movement and at present these circumstances dont exist. they simply havent rules out supporting an armed campaign were circumstances to change in the future.
at present they concentrate on local activism. its also extremely unfair to say they are scared to stand as it would show they have little support. groups like the IRSM also didnt stand in elections when their popularity was at its height. after the 81 hunger strikes IRSM candidates would have done very well on the back of support for michael devine and the other two INLA volunteers.
RSF have also had their policies since their inception. this isnt a new approach for them its deeply held principles they are adhering to wither that makes them popular or not.
you seem to view politics as a game where you shed your principles as long as it wins votes going by your statements in this thread. I prefer to stick to principles. I believe that the british should have no part in ireland and there should always be hostility to their presence (wither political or physical) until they are removed and i will continue to say that no matter how popular it may be. RFS and the IRSM believe the same and i admire them for that whilst not always agreeing.
I myself dont believe that the time is right now for a military campaign but that doesnt mean other policies should be sold off for votes.
the RIRA are also linked to the 32 county sovereignty committee not RSF.
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Cymro
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Not at all regarding principles. The underlining principle of Republicans would be for an United Irish Republic, how they go about that is something which evolves according to demands and circumstances. To move from a path of violence to peace isn't throwing away your principles it's adjusting your path to achieve your principles. Same goes for joining the Policing Board - the principle would be that the RUC/ PSNI where too policised, not reflective of the demography of NI etc, how they go about voicing that opinion and changing that again changes.
No party has a right to dictate to it's membership where it stands. If the majority stand for one thing they have a right to put that forward. It is then up to the public to vote on that basis. Going by the increase in support towards Sinn Fein I'd argue they are very much finding themselves reflective of public opinion within the Republican argument.
And re 32SM I should have known that, thanks for that.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Cymro wrote: | Not at all regarding principles. The underlining principle of Republicans would be for an United Irish Republic, how they go about that is something which evolves according to demands and circumstances. To move from a path of violence to peace isn't throwing away your principles it's adjusting your path to achieve your principles. Same goes for joining the Policing Board - the principle would be that the RUC/ PSNI where too policised, not reflective of the demography of NI etc, how they go about voicing that opinion and changing that again changes.
No party has a right to dictate to it's membership where it stands. If the majority stand for one thing they have a right to put that forward. It is then up to the public to vote on that basis. Going by the increase in support towards Sinn Fein I'd argue they are very much finding themselves reflective of public opinion within the Republican argument.
And re 32SM I should have known that, thanks for that. |
the principles is that the psni are a british police force in ireland. republicans should never back that force as legitimate. the fact that the PSNI havent really changed that much also is another reason not to support them.
for evidence of this see their handling of the northern bank robbery where they publicly accused the ira to put political pressure on sinn fein. as of yet no charges have been brought against anyone from the ira and they certainly hadnt been at the time. political policing at its best.
sinn fein also are not growing within the republican community. if anything they are probably losing support in republican communities. what they are doing is taking SDLP votes in the north by trying their best to turn in to them.
in the south many now see them as a safe bet. these people can now pretend they are republican when voting sf when in the past when nationalist communities were up against it they really didnt want to get actively involved.
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Rinty
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But by getting involved in the policing committee, Sinn Fein can influence the process that can change the police service. There is also the mammoth benefit of it not becoming an issue that halts the peace process.
I don't think that Sinn Fein had much choice and the idea that somehow a united ireland would be exempt from police chiefs playing political games or the police being a tool of the state at times is ludicrous.
Ignoring the GFA means ignoring the will of the Irish people, a central plank of self-determination.
NI has an assembly who are responsible for a police force, nationalists now have political power sharing on that assembly and on the PSNI committee.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Rinty wrote: | But by getting involved in the policing committee, Sinn Fein can influence the process that can change the police service. There is also the mammoth benefit of it not becoming an issue that halts the peace process.
I don't think that Sinn Fein had much choice and the idea that somehow a united ireland would be exempt from police chiefs playing political games or the police being a tool of the state at times is ludicrous.
Ignoring the GFA means ignoring the will of the Irish people, a central plank of self-determination.
NI has an assembly who are responsible for a police force, nationalists now have political power sharing on that assembly and on the PSNI committee. |
I think i am correct in saying that neither decommissioning or joining the policing boards were part of the GFA. its other parties who refuse to fulfill the GFA yet sinn fein are pushed on issues which are not even part of the agreement.
All sinn fein being on the policing board will achieve is a facade of impartiality as people will point to the fact that there is a "republican" party on the board
sinn fein very much had a choice not to join the GFA and for once in recent times show some back bone in insisting others fulfilled their parts of the GFA and not being forced into moving even further into accepting british rule in ireland.
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Rinty
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"I think i am correct in saying that neither decommissioning or joining the policing boards were part of the GFA."
You miss my point. The central plank of the GFA is power sharing and that was endorsed by the people of Ireland, north and south. That assembly, sharing power, run the PSNI. The main achievement of the peace process for nationalists was power sharing. It would stupid not to use that position to reflect their voters interests and their party policies on all areas that they can, including the police.
"sinn fein very much had a choice not to join the GFA and for once in recent times show some back bone in insisting others fulfilled their parts of the GFA and not being forced into moving even further into accepting british rule in ireland."
No, the GFA extended rule in Northern Ireland to it's own people through an assembly where nationalists would receive a share of power that reflected their share of the vote. Sinn Fein showed enormous "backbone" by doing just what you say. Even when some of the demands were unreasonable and not included in the GFA, even when the other parts of the GFA were not being implemented, they took brave positions that alienated some of their own supporters, in order to keep the peace process going.
The end result is what matters and so far the end result is peace, no bombs, no troops on the streets, cross border projects, devolution, nationalists representatives involved in all levels of devolved government.
You may be right that it will prove to be pointless but there is no doubt that it presents a better situation than before.
By taking on their role in PSNI and other issues, Sinn Fein are announcing that they are no longer a revolutionary party or a political spokesperson for an armed struggle. This seems to be making them more popular with catholic voters than before and that reads, to me, like an endorsement from the nationalist community who live in Northern Ireland.
I think you should give those people a chance to see if the new arrangement will work for them in the long term. For once it would be good to see the people allowed their say.
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parkhead_rfb
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the end result never has been about a six county power sharing government with reserved issues still held at westminster. the end result for republicans always has been about an end to the british presence in ireland full stop.
the GFA should be seen for exactly what it is, a stepping stone to this. Sinn fein could still exert political influence in forcing impartial policing without outright accepting the PSNI as a legitimate force. i, and many republicans, will never accept the PSNI as anything but another faction of british rule in ireland. this was unacceptable in the past and remains unacceptable now.
you also seem to be falling into the trap of thinking that as they are gaining more votes this is a good thing. it is not. selling off your principles may get you more votes but what is the point if your not actually going to change anything when you get in power.
I am also shocked that you see sf no longer being seen as being revolutionary as a good thing. Ireland needs revolution to bring about national liberation and socialism. how do you feel about their decisions to drop policies relating to increases in corporation tax?
the willingness of sf to drop these left wing policies worries me as much as their willingness to drop policies relationg to british rule in ireland.
the GFA should be used to better the lives of those in the six counties in the meantime but the end result should always be the formation of a 32 county socialist republic. supporting british policing in ireland does nothing but set this ideal back.
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Rinty
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| Quote: | | the GFA should be seen for exactly what it is, a stepping stone to this. Sinn fein could still exert political influence in forcing impartial policing without outright accepting the PSNI as a legitimate force. i, and many republicans, will never accept the PSNI as anything but another faction of british rule in ireland. this was unacceptable in the past and remains unacceptable now. |
What would your alternative be? Let the paramilitaries act as police until NI is part of a capitalist republic?
What Sinn Fein are doing are trying to make sure that power sharing results in the PSNI being a "legitimate force".
| Quote: | | you also seem to be falling into the trap of thinking that as they are gaining more votes this is a good thing. it is not. selling off your principles may get you more votes but what is the point if your not actually going to change anything when you get in power. |
Not my point. I dont have an opinion on whether Sinn Feins rising vote is a "good" thing or not. What I am saying is that the rise in their votes in recent years shows that their policies reflect the views of a growing number of nationalists in the North, far more than those who oppose them. You say "i, and many republicans, will never accept the PSNI as anything but another faction of british rule" but the fact is that more republicans and even more nationalists will accept it as part of the overall package due to the other advances made. You are opposing the nationalist community of Northern Ireland's right to determine the steps towards their own future.
| Quote: | | I am also shocked that you see sf no longer being seen as being revolutionary as a good thing. |
Again, that was not my point. I didnt say it was a "good" thing, I just pointed out that that was the implications of Sinn Fein's actions in recent years. Personally I doubt whether they ever were "revolutionary" anyway.
| Quote: | | how do you feel about their decisions to drop policies relating to increases in corporation tax? |
It doesnt surprise me in the least. It didnt surprise me when Martin McGuiness, as education minister, went ahead with PFI school projects. But I have never supported Sinn Fein and was under no illusions of the nature of their party.
After 30 years of war I think the new arrangements are a step forward. Who wins an assembly election or who runs the state police will never effect the prospects of a revolution in Ireland anyway. The GFA and the peace process is a progressive step and allows for a generation of people to come through without their communities being on opposite sides of a war.
| Quote: | | the GFA should be used to better the lives of those in the six counties in the meantime but the end result should always be the formation of a 32 county socialist republic. |
It is used to better lives, thats the point, to get there all sides had to compromise on issues for the bigger picture, Sinn Fein compromised more than most, whether it was fair or not is not the question, they did it to protect the chance of better lives in the meantime.
My end result would be socialism for the people of Ireland, whether they jump straight from the current divided island direct to a socialist world or whether they unite or split even more is relevant to the poltics of the time but not really overall. The solution for the next decade in NI will be from the basis of the GFA. A socialist republic, whether in NI or in the whole island will be achieved by supporting socialist, not nationalist, parties. If you support nationalist parties then your primary concern is the national question. To you it is whether the police is "british", I think that to most nationalists who live in NI their main concern would be having a more balanced, more fair, police force that they can trust more.
Whether the police are a tool of the british or irish state is irrelevant, it would still be a state police force and still act in the interests of the state. If the PSNI were controlled fron Dublin they would be the state police of a capitalist country.
| Quote: | | supporting british policing in ireland does nothing but set this ideal back. |
I have to ask again what you think the alternative to what you call "british policing".
By your defintion (I think, correct me if I am wrong), as long as NI remains as part of the UK then any police force or government service (I am assuming you oppose the British NHS and British fire service too) will be a "british" service.
So, if you accept that, in the meantime, the GFA will improves lives, what would you accept as the police service for NI in "the meantime"? Do you think that having the Gardai police NI would work? Should the IRA or INLA police nationalist communities? Would that mean that you would accept the UVF or UDA doing the same in their communities?
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parkhead_rfb
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sf in my opinion should have made very clear that the psni and any british police force will never be acceptable in ireland. there is no need for sinn fein to join the policing board. they can place political pressure on the police from outwith the board anyway.
by joining the board they have legitamised the role of a british police force in ireland. one which isnt even really that different from the old ruc in make up and its actions.
if for example a INLA volunteer etc were to take armed action against the british would sinn fein now have to label that action criminal? would they advocate turning that person over to be imprisoned? I certainly would never give the police any information which led to the imprisonment of an irish republican by the british and i would label anyone who did such a traitor to irish republicanism.
ten men starved themselves to death in prisons to be recognised as political prisoners and to state that their actions were not criminal, regardless of wither or not i agree with armed action at this time i still think its the legitimate right of those who do with to do so.
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Morph
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| Quote: | if for example a INLA volunteer etc were to take armed action against the british would sinn fein now have to label that action criminal? would they advocate turning that person over to be imprisoned? I certainly would never give the police any information which led to the imprisonment of an irish republican by the british and i would label anyone who did such a traitor to irish republicanism.
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So you agree with the armed actions of whom many would think terrorists, and whom many people of the same ilk no longeer sympathise with? That s worrying
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Cymro
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Rinty makes some good points
You are right Parkie that instantes such as the Northern Bank Robbery showed clearly the politicisation of a policeforce. But the only way that will change is by the largest Republican Party finding itself in a position to directly influence it. Merely staying outside continues the status quo.
Northern Ireland has changed dramatically for the better in terms of its politics. The huge changes have only come about by playing the game - participating in elections, power shareing, joining the policing board.
I was just watching a programme about the IRA Internment Camp in County Kerry during WW2 now on Sky + and one quote struck me in an interview with a former IRA Prisoner while talking about the IRA during the time:
"We where idealists, though looking back we wheren't realists".
This I can't help feeling sums you up along with the likes of Republican Sinn Fein etc. It's all well saying you want to ignore the Police etc to achieve your aims, but it's achieved nothing so far. So as a real political party they have a duty to find a path that does work. It's all well saying "it's not only about winning elections". But, in a democratic system it's the only way of changing things to achieve your aims. Sad but true.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Morph wrote: | | Quote: | if for example a INLA volunteer etc were to take armed action against the british would sinn fein now have to label that action criminal? would they advocate turning that person over to be imprisoned? I certainly would never give the police any information which led to the imprisonment of an irish republican by the british and i would label anyone who did such a traitor to irish republicanism.
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So you agree with the armed actions of whom many would think terrorists, and whom many people of the same ilk no longeer sympathise with? That s worrying |
nelson mandellas group used car bombs etc and many said he was a terrorist. now london wants to build statues of him.
I dont believe any action against the british presence in ireland is ever a crime. i dont think its the way forward now but i would never call them a criminal or have anything less than full political status if imprisoned.
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parkhead_rfb
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the psni will never be anything but another part of british rule in ireland. its ingrained in the force and they will always be ultimately controlled by westminster.
sf could perfectly easily place political pressure on the police on any issue that arises by using the media etc etc.
joining the policing board only legitimises the force and thats exactly what the british and unionists want. a british police force will never be impartial and more so never be acceptable.
if the policing boards had any real power the sdlp influence would have been enough to keep them impartial anyway. the insistance that sf join was only about legitimacy.
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Rinty
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And your alternative for the meantime? Is it that you think that the nationalists in NI should have to ghave a hostile police force and that any attempt to change them is pointless? Wouldnt it be better to at least try? Should scottish republicans be proscribing this to NI nationalists, telling them that they should have biased police force and that the power sharing assembly, who are the body in charge of the PSNI will never be able to chanmge the police from the former RUC?
If Sinn Fein find, as you predict ,that their presence on the police board does nothing to change the police, then that would be the time to boycott. If you are right and it is just a brit PR exercise designed to make it look like they are giving nationalists a say, then at least that will have to be backed up with improvements and concessions to be a sustainable claim.
What is there to lose?
I think you are wrong on the armed struggle. For the moment the nationalist community in NI and the people of the Republic have clearly demonstrated that they consider it to be over. If the republican movement is to achieve it's long term goal of a united irish republic, then it must stand together during significant developments. Thiose who dont are endangering the process and therefore are not acting legitimately as representatives of either republicans or the nationalist communities in NI.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Rinty wrote: | And your alternative for the meantime? Is it that you think that the nationalists in NI should have to ghave a hostile police force and that any attempt to change them is pointless? Wouldnt it be better to at least try? Should scottish republicans be proscribing this to NI nationalists, telling them that they should have biased police force and that the power sharing assembly, who are the body in charge of the PSNI will never be able to chanmge the police from the former RUC?
If Sinn Fein find, as you predict ,that their presence on the police board does nothing to change the police, then that would be the time to boycott. If you are right and it is just a brit PR exercise designed to make it look like they are giving nationalists a say, then at least that will have to be backed up with improvements and concessions to be a sustainable claim.
What is there to lose?
I think you are wrong on the armed struggle. For the moment the nationalist community in NI and the people of the Republic have clearly demonstrated that they consider it to be over. If the republican movement is to achieve it's long term goal of a united irish republic, then it must stand together during significant developments. Thiose who dont are endangering the process and therefore are not acting legitimately as representatives of either republicans or the nationalist communities in NI. |
I have already said that i dont see armed struggle as the way forward at the moment so you have confused me with that comment.
as for the PSNI i think the resistance to even impliment the full patten report shows how much sinn fein will be able to change them. and by joining the board sf have accepted them as a police force. they are not acceptable and never will be that is my point.
I am also free to give whatever opinion i like to irish republicans as i have been actively supporting irish republicanism for years now. As for endangering the process thats not really the concern of republicans who are against such things.
if the british and unionists wish to bring down the full GFA on the basis of issues which were not even part of that agreement then that will be the fault of the british and unionists not of irish republicans who oppose joining policing boards.
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Rinty
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"I have already said that i dont see armed struggle as the way forward at the moment so you have confused me with that comment."
you said that Sinn Fein should not want to see an INLA volunteer prosecuted by police as you still see british as legitimate targets, that isnt an end to the armed struggle in my opinion.
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Cymro
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | the psni will never be anything but another part of british rule in ireland. its ingrained in the force and they will always be ultimately controlled by westminster.
sf could perfectly easily place political pressure on the police on any issue that arises by using the media etc etc.
joining the policing board only legitimises the force and thats exactly what the british and unionists want. a british police force will never be impartial and more so never be acceptable.
if the policing boards had any real power the sdlp influence would have been enough to keep them impartial anyway. the insistance that sf join was only about legitimacy. |
Correction, at the moment the PSNI is a symbol of British Rule. However only with the likes of Sinn Fein taking active role in running the PSNI can things change for the better. Like it or not Northern Ireland at the moment is a part of the UK. The only way that will change is by taking ownership of key institutions such as the PSNI, otherwise Direct Rule will never be far away along with Unionist Domination. On the one hand you argue and campaign against that state of afairs, yet on the other hand you want to see that continue.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Cymro wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | the psni will never be anything but another part of british rule in ireland. its ingrained in the force and they will always be ultimately controlled by westminster.
sf could perfectly easily place political pressure on the police on any issue that arises by using the media etc etc.
joining the policing board only legitimises the force and thats exactly what the british and unionists want. a british police force will never be impartial and more so never be acceptable.
if the policing boards had any real power the sdlp influence would have been enough to keep them impartial anyway. the insistance that sf join was only about legitimacy. |
Correction, at the moment the PSNI is a symbol of British Rule. However only with the likes of Sinn Fein taking active role in running the PSNI can things change for the better. Like it or not Northern Ireland at the moment is a part of the UK. The only way that will change is by taking ownership of key institutions such as the PSNI, otherwise Direct Rule will never be far away along with Unionist Domination. On the one hand you argue and campaign against that state of afairs, yet on the other hand you want to see that continue. |
no the psni will always be a symbol and a force of british rule in ireland. sinn fein supprting them will not change this only lend it legitimacy it does not deserve.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Rinty wrote: | "I have already said that i dont see armed struggle as the way forward at the moment so you have confused me with that comment."
you said that Sinn Fein should not want to see an INLA volunteer prosecuted by police as you still see british as legitimate targets, that isnt an end to the armed struggle in my opinion. |
they are still and always will be legitimate targets for as long as they remain in ireland.
that doesnt mean i think they should be physically attacked now.
my point was i would never criminalise anyone who did take such physical actions.
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Cymro
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | Cymro wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | the psni will never be anything but another part of british rule in ireland. its ingrained in the force and they will always be ultimately controlled by westminster.
sf could perfectly easily place political pressure on the police on any issue that arises by using the media etc etc.
joining the policing board only legitimises the force and thats exactly what the british and unionists want. a british police force will never be impartial and more so never be acceptable.
if the policing boards had any real power the sdlp influence would have been enough to keep them impartial anyway. the insistance that sf join was only about legitimacy. |
Correction, at the moment the PSNI is a symbol of British Rule. However only with the likes of Sinn Fein taking active role in running the PSNI can things change for the better. Like it or not Northern Ireland at the moment is a part of the UK. The only way that will change is by taking ownership of key institutions such as the PSNI, otherwise Direct Rule will never be far away along with Unionist Domination. On the one hand you argue and campaign against that state of afairs, yet on the other hand you want to see that continue. |
no the psni will always be a symbol and a force of british rule in ireland. sinn fein supprting them will not change this only lend it legitimacy it does not deserve. |
seems you want it to be that way - suits you for the 'enemy' to persist as it means you can justify your own stance. However there is no other way for normal policing in Northern Ireland. It isn't going to vote to join Eire in the near future so the best chance for an United Eire has to be through meanignful devolution. Republicans taking part in running the PSNI is 1 important element of that.
You are yet to offer any suggestions that can actually work - certainly doing nothing, which is what you seem to be suggesting hasn't worked for Republicanism - it's merely helped Unionism.
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parkhead_rfb
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if you are a republican you obviously believe that full equality and justice will never be achieved while the six counties remain part of the uk. the psni is one such institution which will always serve the interests if britain in ireland.
i will ask you if the policing boards are this great solution to the political policing of the PSNI why would the SDLP being on there not have changed anything, why do sinn fein need to join. surely this nationalist influence can bring about change?
eventually when sinn fein realise that the boards are nothing but a sham they will be in a no win situation as staying will legitamise the process and leaving will see them as bringing down the peace process and assembly when the DUP toys come out the pram again.
that is of course assuming sf politicians havent become too accustomed to their nice wage to even want to pull out of the boards.
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Cymro
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So again you are asked what is the answer?
Staying out achieved.....nothing.
And actually as a Republican I'd argue you believe in an United Irish Republic. While accepting that institutions such as the PSNI are British in their ethos, there is nothing 'un Republican' in working from inside to change that. I'd accept that Republicans where going against what it is to be a Republican by lets say going to the House of Commons and taking an Oath to the Queen, or joining the PSNI and taking an Oath to her.
However nothing stops a Republican Party from trying to change the PSNI from being a force run by Britain/Unionists to be a body run by Northern Irish for the benefit of Northern Irish.
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parkhead_rfb
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but it wont change. and when it doesnt sinn fein will be backed into a nice little corner.
the answer for me is to take part in the assembly. run their departments as well as they can and stick to their left wing policies. show that socialism (or at least as close to it as they could achieve) can be workable but at the same time continue to make the point that this is only ever a stepping stone to a united ireland.
I dont see why the policing boards are such a big issue. sf can place as much political pressure on them from outside as they can from within. we will see in time what changes sf actually make but i am extrmely confident that my predictions about what will happen will be true.
its all very well say well you dont know unless you try but as i have said imagine the out cry at a later date if they decide to leave? playing right into unionist hands.
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Cymro
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In essence Parkie you want the status quo to continue. It's important for Republicanism that it is seen to be constructive and wants to see things change for the good. You would rather assume it won't work and stay still. seems more like fear of what might happen than ambition to me.
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Rinty
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"the psni is one such institution which will always serve the interests if britain in ireland."
It is the one you have chosen and the one with the obvious past, albeit under a different name. But, in essence, they are no different to the NHS in NI or any other "six county" institution.
You need to look at other situations and not take NI in isolation. What matters is that the police in NI see a balance in recruitment and retention across all communities and that, in it new context it can clean up it's act to be able to serve all the people of NI. Of course it will still be used by the state, as will the police and Nottingham, Newcastle and Edinburgh.
There is a new context for the police in NI, there is no longer an out and out war and no longer an armed struggle. To say that future NI police will behave in the same way as past Ni polce is defeatist. They will behave in the way that police forces ALL behave, how that behaviour manifests itself in actions, depends entirely on the conditions and context.
I sit on a community panel re local crime, with councillors and community repesentatives. Should I refuse to take part in our monthly report from the local police and the debate that folows because of how I am treated by the Police at faslane or the G8 at Gleneagles?
I use the meetings to push the ase for young people who are often the focus of anger and attention at this sort of meetings.
Sinn Fein have a responsibility placed on them by the vote for the GFA and the rise in their own vote following the peace process. They represent more than republican/nationalist interests. They represent their consituency and should be involved in talks with the police in all aspects of policing, from young people, to safety for women on the steets, domestic violence, racist attacks against the chinese comunity etc.
They cannot share power in government without realising that they have to play a full role. And republicans have to realise that all aspects of government cannot be seen in the context of 6 vs 32 counties. What do Sinn Fein representatives say when a constituent says that the school is falling down? Do they say that they cannot help as the school boards are institutions of the British presence in Ireland, or do you get on with it.
What do they say if their is an increase of race attacks? Do they say that it's nothing to do with them?
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parkhead_rfb
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i think you know as well as i do that the police in the six counties are a totally different issue from schools.
the PSNI is nothing but a shiny new badge. i think at the last count it was still around 70 percent RUC. there are still also many miscarriages of justice that this force have yet to even admit never mind apologise for.
and as i have also pointed out the PSNI were still up to their old tricks as recently as the northern bank robbery.
As i have already pointed out to cymro its all well and good saying join the boards and see what happens but what about the next time they get up to their tricks what are sf's choices?
leave and be blamed for bringing down the assembly or stay and legitamise it as oh well theres republicans on the boards now.
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Rinty
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"i think you know as well as i do that the police in the six counties are a totally different issue from schools."
Aye, but it is you who are claiming that the rweason to oppose the police is that they are a british institution run by the british state. What I am saying is, if you take that as your reason for opposition, then you should apply it to other institutions as well.
"i think at the last count it was still around 70 percent RUC."
Is it? I think that shows that you are wrong to oppose the involvement in the boards. If 30% of the new force is new blood then that would have a massive effect on how it evolves.
"there are still also many miscarriages of justice that this force have yet to even admit never mind apologise for......and as i have also pointed out the PSNI were still up to their old tricks as recently as the northern bank robbery."
The same can be said of our own police forces here in Great Britain, being a "british" force is not what makes them a tool of the state.
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parkhead_rfb
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I think the RUC even went far, far beyond what the other british police forces have done.
as i also keep saying the new blood didnt quite stop the stuff with the northern bank robbery.
you also didnt comment on the political implications when at a later date sf realise the police boards do nothing and another major incident emerges.
if they stay they legitimise it, if they leave the unionist toys come out the pram and sf are blamed for breaking the assembly down.
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Cymro
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If Sinn Fein find that it's no good being on the Board then that does raise problems, but no more problems than not taking part in it at all and the political implications of that. Parties in a democracy have to make these decisions all the time and often gamble on a decision - the same sort of gamble lead to the SNP trying a minority administation and not going with the Lib Dems etc, and Plaid Cymru going into coalition with Labour. It could backfire, but it could also potentially bring back a huge reward never with far greater implications.
Northern Bank Robbery, another event that happened Pre Sinn Fein being on the board. So doesn't really hold water in that instance. The PSNI while still being largely the same as the RUC is still going through some huge changes and now is the time for a Republican Party to be influencing that and not hiding behind some fear of what could happen. Who knows what the PSNI in another 5 years could be like.
This is real politics now Parkie, parties make difficult decisions to achieve an aim, you are scared.
So far you've been unable to offer anything on this thread that could bring about success without joining the Policing Board etc, merely offer insights into what could go wrong.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Cymro wrote: | If Sinn Fein find that it's no good being on the Board then that does raise problems, but no more problems than not taking part in it at all and the political implications of that. Parties in a democracy have to make these decisions all the time and often gamble on a decision - the same sort of gamble lead to the SNP trying a minority administation and not going with the Lib Dems etc, and Plaid Cymru going into coalition with Labour. It could backfire, but it could also potentially bring back a huge reward never with far greater implications.
Northern Bank Robbery, another event that happened Pre Sinn Fein being on the board. So doesn't really hold water in that instance. The PSNI while still being largely the same as the RUC is still going through some huge changes and now is the time for a Republican Party to be influencing that and not hiding behind some fear of what could happen. Who knows what the PSNI in another 5 years could be like.
This is real politics now Parkie, parties make difficult decisions to achieve an aim, you are scared.
So far you've been unable to offer anything on this thread that could bring about success without joining the Policing Board etc, merely offer insights into what could go wrong. |
I have already said on numerous occassions that sf can still place political pressure on the police in the assembly and media.
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Cymro
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Not enough pressure though. For politics in NI to develop wider participation in the Policing Board is very high up. Had they been able to exert enough pressure from the media and the Assembly Sinn Fein would have done so.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Cymro wrote: | | Not enough pressure though. For politics in NI to develop wider participation in the Policing Board is very high up. Had they been able to exert enough pressure from the media and the Assembly Sinn Fein would have done so. |
the reason they joined was to get the assembly up again as it was the latest blockade old dr no wanted to throw up. had it not been made an issue by them they wouldnt have joined.
they have been spectacularly backed into a corner.
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Cymro
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Not at all, yes joining the Police Board was a politcal demand, but also a demand I'd argue the DUP never ever thought would realistically been achieved at this moment in time. Had they not wanted to join they wouldn't have joined, regardless of the demands of the DUP, or even the British Government.
Given the desperation of Tony Blair to have a positive legacy had Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams not seen a worth from joining the Police Board they wouldn't have done. However given the changing politics in Northern Ireland the time was deemed to be right for it to happen. The potential positive implications of this for Republicanism far far out way arguments against which from reading your posts are based solely on idealism as opposed to realism. Not being a part of policing achieved sweet FA positively for Republicanism.
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