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Stevie
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BNP, fascists or what?Watching the BBC provocked TV circus as the police sneak NG into their studios, I thought I'd see why they're hated so.
The BNP’s policy is to: | Quote: |
- Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
- Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
- Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases;
- Reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain.
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From their site.
I don't give a monkey's about the BNP but everyone is calling them fascists but their immigration policy while tough is not fascism as far as I can see.
I'm not defending them, I'm just curious about why they're called fascists when the policies above don't appear fascist.
Having read their other policies on Health, economy etc (their policies on Northern Ireland are insane). I suspect their message will appeal to many who will leave Labour in droves at the next election.
I still don't read fascism on their website but their policies do reflect solutions to what many average people find irritating problems in their lives. Those who are disenfranchised by Tory and Labour might well find them appealing...
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mairead
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Their White Supremacy attitude is fascist as far as I am concerned and they have a bunch of thugs in the leadership. Even Griffin has convictions as far as I am led to believe.
They may have toned down vocally in the past few years, and may be wearing nicer suits, but they are the same racist bigots that they always been.
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Alasdair
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The independent has this article on 10 things you should know about the BNP when you watch Question Time tonight.
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Alasdair
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It'll be intersting to hear the viewing figures for tonight's programme ... I'll need to watch it on i-player or preferabley youtube if I can.
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Dave Coull
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It has been suggested that support for the BNP is growing, but is that true? They managed to get a couple of MEPs elected at the Euro elections, but without actually getting any more votes than they'd had before. What enabled them to make this "breakthrough" was supporters of other parties, particularly the Labour Party, staying at home. You can blame politicians failing to provide people with hope, while at the same time claiming ludicrous expenses and other benefits for themselves, for that. Appearing on Question Time will probably give the BNP a bit of a boost for a time, but, from details about the party that have leaked out, it looks like they have a very high turnover of membership. It seems that, even when people join, the BNP has a big problem over getting them to renew membership for a second year. We certainly shouldn't be complacent, but neither should we give the BNP a boost by exaggerating. Compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure. Even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway.
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Fidget
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Re: BNP, fascists or what? | Stevie wrote: | Watching the BBC provocked TV circus as the police sneak NG into their studios, I thought I'd see why they're hated so.
The BNP’s policy is to: | Quote: |
- Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
- Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
- Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases;
- Reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain.
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From their site.
I don't give a monkey's about the BNP but everyone is calling them fascists but their immigration policy while tough is not fascism as far as I can see.
I'm not defending them, I'm just curious about why they're called fascists when the policies above don't appear fascist.
Having read their other policies on Health, economy etc (their policies on Northern Ireland are insane). I suspect their message will appeal to many who will leave Labour in droves at the next election.
I still don't read fascism on their website but their policies do reflect solutions to what many average people find irritating problems in their lives. Those who are disenfranchised by Tory and Labour might well find them appealing... |
I don't read fascim into their policies either but I did read it into the behaviour of some of today's bnp protesters. That was a display of fascist tendencies that we can do without. Don't those clowns realise that acting to stifle political opposition is exactly what fascism is all about?
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Fidget
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure. Even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway. |
The BNP have long missed the boat for any hope of political dominance in the UK. The ebb and flow of its membership doesn't matter. What does matter is that what they are doing right now is firing the debate on issues comfortably glossed over/ignored by the central parties in the last decade, their ignorance of which has lent weight to the bnp. What I find still more surprising is that it's still the shock/horror bnp uprising that is the focus.. yet seemingly little regard to the foundation of it, which lies squarely in the hands of the mainstream parties policies.
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Dave Coull
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Re: BNP, fascists or what?Stevie tells us that, according to their website, the BNP’s policy is to: | Quote: | | - Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally |
This figure of two million is a deliberate lie. The number of illegal immigrants is several thousand, but is not numbered in millions. Basically, the BNP wants people to believe that any furrin-lookin folk they see, particularly if they are the wrong colour, must be "illegal". This is encitement to racial violence. | Quote: | | - Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British |
The numbers involved here are small, but, again, this isn't intended as a practical policy, but as an encitement to racial violence | Quote: | | - Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate |
In other words, if we don't like the look of you, we'll take your citizenship away. Of course there would be an automatic assumption that anybody of the wrong colour or who didn't fit in some other way must be a citizen "inappropriately". And again, there is a sub-text of incitement to racial violence. | Quote: | | - Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently |
And of course BNP supporters are invited to encourage those of foreign descent to wish to leave | Quote: | | - Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases |
HOW?
Just exactly how, physically, do you stop ALL immigration, "except for exceptional cases" (and you have to stop them as well, at least initially, in order to decide whether they are an exceptional case or not) without creating the huge bureaucratic apparatus of a fascist police state?
Oh, wait a minute............
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Alasdair
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Re: BNP, fascists or what? | Fidget wrote: | | I don't read fascim into their policies either but I did read it into the behaviour of some of today's bnp protesters. That was a display of fascist tendencies that we can do without. Don't those clowns realise that acting to stifle political opposition is exactly what fascism is all about? |
I'm inclined to agree with this, although it doesn't make the BNP any less nasty for it.
I do wonder if the fascist label arises from the notion that, in the unlikely event, of them achieving any real power they would transpire to be fascist in nature and seek to supress opposition, particularly where this eminated from ethnic minority groups.
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Alasdair
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In relation to the 'illegal immigrant' bit referredto above I seem to recall data that suggested the majority of those who were working here illegally were actually white australian/new zealand/american and were students or on gap years or some such.
It's just harder to spot the illegal who looks just like you.
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Lord Pitsligo
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Re: BNP, fascists or what? | Quote: |
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
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So if you're sick of this country and want out and are white, the BNP will discriminate against you?!?
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Alasdair
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The BBC has released soeme clips prior to broadcast, watch the taster here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8321566.stm
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Fidget
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| Alasdair wrote: | In relation to the 'illegal immigrant' bit referredto above I seem to recall data that suggested the majority of those who were working here illegally were actually white australian/new zealand/american and were students or on gap years or some such.
It's just harder to spot the illegal who looks just like you. |
As far as I'm aware, the majority of illegal immigrants here arrive legally and then don't leave, and student VISA's are by far the preferred method, although it was orientals who were cited as the main culprits for that method last time I seen anything about it. I thnk I believe that more over U.S, NZ, OZ whites.. who could just come here on holiday and then stay. No need for any student visa or whatnot.
I'm not sure what the position is with failed asylum seekers who must surely revert to illegal immigrant status if they don't leave?
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landg
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Re: BNP, fascists or what? | Fidget wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | Watching the BBC provocked TV circus as the police sneak NG into their studios, I thought I'd see why they're hated so.
The BNP’s policy is to: | Quote: |
- Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
- Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
- Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases;
- Reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain.
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From their site.
I don't give a monkey's about the BNP but everyone is calling them fascists but their immigration policy while tough is not fascism as far as I can see.
I'm not defending them, I'm just curious about why they're called fascists when the policies above don't appear fascist.
Having read their other policies on Health, economy etc (their policies on Northern Ireland are insane). I suspect their message will appeal to many who will leave Labour in droves at the next election.
I still don't read fascism on their website but their policies do reflect solutions to what many average people find irritating problems in their lives. Those who are disenfranchised by Tory and Labour might well find them appealing... |
I don't read fascim into their policies either but I did read it into the behaviour of some of today's bnp protesters. That was a display of fascist tendencies that we can do without. Don't those clowns realise that acting to stifle political opposition is exactly what fascism is all about? |
well said that chap. it's one of those cases where you would quite happily walkp past them kicking f**k out each other in the street.
they actually deserve each other.
one of these 'protester's' was interviewed outside the bbc hq this morning, he actually said that until we had proper freedom of speech in this country, for everyone, it was wrong that nick griffin was being allowed to speak out on question time.
i suspected this clown's comments were edited in by an editor with a sense of humour.
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Dave Coull
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As I pointed out earlier, compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure; even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway. And having just watched Question Time, I have to say Nick Griffin was pathetic . Time for a new fuehrer?
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Ultra
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| Fidget wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | In relation to the 'illegal immigrant' bit referredto above I seem to recall data that suggested the majority of those who were working here illegally were actually white australian/new zealand/american and were students or on gap years or some such.
It's just harder to spot the illegal who looks just like you. |
As far as I'm aware, the majority of illegal immigrants here arrive legally and then don't leave, and student VISA's are by far the preferred method, although it was orientals who were cited as the main culprits for that method last time I seen anything about it. I thnk I believe that more over U.S, NZ, OZ whites.. who could just come here on holiday and then stay. No need for any student visa or whatnot.
I'm not sure what the position is with failed asylum seekers who must surely revert to illegal immigrant status if they don't leave? |
Loads of programmes on TV following the customs and immigration authorities who detain illegal immigrants and then have to let them go because they either don't have documents to be sent back or have to release them due to the lack of facilities and ask them to report at a police station and they are never seen again.
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jamesieboy
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If you do some research into fascism and what it actually is then you will find that is a complex, multi-faceted creature. As is socialism/communism.
It has reared its head in a number of countries, most of them strangely enough in mediterranean/latin locations (Croatia/Spain/Italy/Chile/Brazil).
The main exception is obviously Germany.
In each place it has manifested itself in different ways and taken different characteristics, but one thing it generally believes in is the one-party state.
And as far as I can see from the press and its web-site the BNP comes out firmly against the one-party state.
Nick Griiffin was slaughtered tonight on QT but some very good points were made on Andrew Neill's programme (another odious slug) which followed it.
Diane Abbott and Michael Portillo both made the point that this 'poor chap'
was slaughtered by a multicultural, metropolitan elite and there would have been a lot of sympathy for him in the deprived areas of the West Midlands/Lancashire/Yorkshire/North East etc etc.
The programme was made by a metropolitan elite, for a metropolitan elite and was weighted heavily towards that audience.
And with unemployment rapidly approaching 3 million many people out there in the sticks would have noticed that and viewed it with great disdain.
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Dave Coull
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| jamesieboy wrote: | | this 'poor chap' was slaughtered by a multicultural, metropolitan elite and there would have been a lot of sympathy for him in the deprived areas of the West Midlands/Lancashire/Yorkshire/North East etc |
Then it should be pointed out to people in these deprived areas that this "poor chap" comes from a very wealthy background with a family history of seeking to lead the masses, who are, of course, considered to be too dumb to lead themselves. Nick's grandfather was associated with Sir Oswald Mosley's British Union of Facists. Nick's father, prominent in the local Tory Party but later expelled from it for being too extreme, took young Nick to a National Front meeting at age 15. Young Nick attended a very expensive private school, and then went on to Cambridge University, where he founded the Young National Front Students. He became National Organiser of the NF in 1978. Mind you, he couldn't have been too successful at nationally organising, because, with Nick Griffin as National Organiser, the National Front lost members, and then split into several small groupings in the 1980s. One of these groups was the BNP. There were no major ideological differences between the BNP and the NF. As is usual with extreme right wing politics, the differences were mostly about who got to be the Fuehrer. Griffin joined the BNP in 1995, and ousted its then leader four years later.
This man who complains about a "metropolitan elite" is a Home Counties private school, Cambridge, lawyer/businessman, and professional politician. He is also (of course) in favour of a Strong Centralised Government. In London.
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Alasdair
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Where was the show recorded? London? Well, the BNP have an elected member on the London Assembly so cries that the programme should have been recorded elsewhere with a different audience are largely disengenuous.
It seems that he is now to make a formal complaint about the programme, presumabely because he didn't get treated as pleasantly as he had hoped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm
I've not seen the whole programme yet, however, from what I have seen I've seen other politicians being treated worse. He can't hack it because he's ill-educated and delusuional.
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Dave Coull
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| Alasdair wrote: | | he's ill-educated |
Home Counties expensive private boarding school and University of Cambridge, "ill-educated"? In one sense, I have to agree that such an education can have some important things missing, but in no way was he "deprived" educationally or otherwise.
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Alasdair
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | | he's ill-educated |
Home Counties expensive private boarding school and University of Cambridge, "ill-educated"? In one sense, I have to agree that such an education can have some important things missing, but in no way was he "deprived" educationally or otherwise. |
Lucky then that I didn't say he was 'un'-educated. He has clearly been 'ill'-educated to have reached the conclusions he has, no doubt he was indoctrinated at an early age and attending NF meetings from the age of 15 can't have helped him to develop a broad and open-minded attitude.
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Rinty
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fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. A party based on a national identity defined by race who believe in an authroitarian mono-culture, social-darwinism and linked to national religions and/or mythology would fit the bill, the BNP are all of that.
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Fidget
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| Alasdair wrote: |
It seems that he is now to make a formal complaint about the programme, presumabely because he didn't get treated as pleasantly as he had hoped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm
I've not seen the whole programme yet, however, from what I have seen I've seen other politicians being treated worse. He can't hack it because he's ill-educated and delusuional. |
I watched it and was really disappointed. From the word go it was just an anti bnp-fest. I thought the idea was to be discussing issues and have all the panelists' takes on it. But no. It was a lets gang up on Griffin fest - with even Dimbleby in on it. It was more as if Griffin was in some Kangaroo court with the way he getting asked things like "do you deny saying [whatever]".
And what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel?
Straw I had to laugh at with his world war rhetoric as some sort of justification for today's state of play on immigration. It was a very different story not so long ago from Labour with their stance on the Gurka soldiers settling here. Shame nobody picked him up on that.
In my opinion, it was more of a kangaroo court than Question Time and the panelists all let themselves down badly. I can't help but wonder if they went down that road on purpose to avoid having to have any meaningful discussion.
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Alasdair
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| Fidget wrote: | I watched it and was really disappointed. From the word go it was just an anti bnp-fest. I thought the idea was to be discussing issues and have all the panelists' takes on it. But no. It was a lets gang up on Griffin fest - with even Dimbleby in on it. It was more as if Griffin was in some Kangaroo court with the way he getting asked things like "do you deny saying [whatever]".
And what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel?
Straw I had to laugh at with his world war rhetoric as some sort of justification for today's state of play on immigration. It was a very different story not so long ago from Labour with their stance on the Gurka soldiers settling here. Shame nobody picked him up on that.
In my opinion, it was more of a kangaroo court than Question Time and the panelists all let themselves down badly. I can't help but wonder if they went down that road on purpose to avoid having to have any meaningful discussion. |
This seems to have been the wider opinion around the programme and I can see how the BBC, and I guess and senior politicians, probably agreed that this would be the best way to proceed. It was always bound to backfire allowing the BNP to portray themselves as some sort of 'hard-done-to' working man's party amongst the 'metropolitan elite'.
The BNP's reaction and the level of BNP supporting complaints has the air of an orchestrated event about it.
A far more effective way to proceed would have been to lay out the agenda of the programme in the usual way, including some of the negative media attention in the last few days, and allowing Nick Griffin to unravel in this fashion.
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Stevie
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Re: BNP, fascists or what? | Alasdair wrote: | | I do wonder if the fascist label arises from the notion that, in the unlikely event, of them achieving any real power they would transpire to be fascist in nature and seek to supress opposition, particularly where this eminated from ethnic minority groups. |
This is what I imagine too.
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magister ludi
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| Dave Coull wrote: | [
This man who complains about a "metropolitan elite" is a Home Counties private school, Cambridge, lawyer/businessman, and professional politician. He is also (of course) in favour of a Strong Centralised Government. In London. |
thanks dave,
I always thought he man, his party and his politics were irrelevant ( well, marginal).....so I haven't in any way bothered to research him....now you've got me worried......now I think I understand why the metropolitan elite are making such a fuss. It's a game to these people isn't it?
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Fidget
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| Rinty wrote: | | fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. |
Don't you ever wonder why that is so, though? It is a word that is quite succint in meaning.. so how come it can be loosely bandied around? 'Racist' is another word that is succinct in meaning yet is now at the extent that it is subjective - ie that's racist because I say it is. Too much social engineering has been going on.
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Stevie
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Appears the BNP are at 22% in the polls and Mandy reckons they'll get a boost at or after the election (just as I suggested yesterday), my predictions are usually not too far off the mark... but this is a special case.
22%... and Labour have how much?
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Fidget
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You have got to be the only person on the planet bothered about the ratings of the bnp. 
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Alasdair
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| Stevie wrote: | Appears the BNP are at 22% in the polls and Mandy reckons they'll get a boost at or after the election (just as I suggested yesterday), my predictions are usually not too far off the mark... but this is a special case.
22%... and Labour have how much? |
That figure must be wrong. Where did you find that?!
In the 2005 GE they polled just 0.7% (192,746 votes) of the vote, in the 2007 SE they took 1.2% (24,616) of the regional vote, in the EU vote this year they took 6.2% (943,598 votes) of the votes.
The EU election say a marked increase but was against the background of the Labour party losing 6.9% of it's vote which appears to have been shared out amongst the other parties. Also a huge number of people failed to turn out.
Anyway, it seems *extremely* unlikely that their potential share of the vote should have leapt to 22%!
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landg
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| Fidget wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: |
It seems that he is now to make a formal complaint about the programme, presumabely because he didn't get treated as pleasantly as he had hoped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm
I've not seen the whole programme yet, however, from what I have seen I've seen other politicians being treated worse. He can't hack it because he's ill-educated and delusuional. |
I watched it and was really disappointed. From the word go it was just an anti bnp-fest. I thought the idea was to be discussing issues and have all the panelists' takes on it. But no. It was a lets gang up on Griffin fest - with even Dimbleby in on it. It was more as if Griffin was in some Kangaroo court with the way he getting asked things like "do you deny saying [whatever]".
And what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel?
Straw I had to laugh at with his world war rhetoric as some sort of justification for today's state of play on immigration. It was a very different story not so long ago from Labour with their stance on the Gurka soldiers settling here. Shame nobody picked him up on that.
In my opinion, it was more of a kangaroo court than Question Time and the panelists all let themselves down badly. I can't help but wonder if they went down that road on purpose to avoid having to have any meaningful discussion. |
without agreeing with griiffin in anyway it was the closest thing i have seen to school yard bullying i have ever seen. griiffin was shown not to be any kind of politician but just an idiotic and shambolic figurehead and mouthpiece.
it was an anti-bnp fest indeed.
that middleclass liberal audience did not represent the views of the many, many people who support the bnp for whatever reason. that was wrong.
the funniest part was when the chap said we would like to throw you out of the country - ehhhmmmmmmm irony or what.
this hijacking of griffin will only increase his vote at the election. i will never vote bnp but i did feel sorry for him in the way the usual qt format was abandoned and he was just a target for hate and anger.
as for the facists outside rioting? scumbags.
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Stevie
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| Alasdair wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | Appears the BNP are at 22% in the polls and Mandy reckons they'll get a boost at or after the election (just as I suggested yesterday), my predictions are usually not too far off the mark... but this is a special case.
22%... and Labour have how much? |
That figure must be wrong. Where did you find that?!
In the 2005 GE they polled just 0.7% (192,746 votes) of the vote, in the 2007 SE they took 1.2% (24,616) of the regional vote, in the EU vote this year they took 6.2% (943,598 votes) of the votes.
The EU election say a marked increase but was against the background of the Labour party losing 6.9% of it's vote which appears to have been shared out amongst the other parties. Also a huge number of people failed to turn out.
Anyway, it seems *extremely* unlikely that their potential share of the vote should have leapt to 22%! |
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/...ppearance/Article/200910415414525
SkyNews, seems it's a Telegraph poll and that ~43 % of the population in England have sympathy with a number of their policies.
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landg
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| Fidget wrote: | | Rinty wrote: | | fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. |
Don't you ever wonder why that is so, though? It is a word that is quite succint in meaning.. so how come it can be loosely bandied around? 'Racist' is another word that is succinct in meaning yet is now at the extent that it is subjective - ie that's racist because I say it is. Too much social engineering has been going on. |
the words racist, secterian,bigotted (amongst others) are thrown around like confetti. their true meaning has been lost and MOPE's find ways to use them in the most bizzare way.
you tend to find ill-educated fools use these words the most usually to facilitate their 'right to be offended'.
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Stevie
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Seems at the moment, Ultra and I are right in our view of the rise of the BNP.
I'm sure it's fragile support but once you vote for a party it's easier to vote for them again and again.
If the BNP get 22% of the vote it will be interesting to watch the results at Westminster.
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landg
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| landg wrote: | | Fidget wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: |
It seems that he is now to make a formal complaint about the programme, presumabely because he didn't get treated as pleasantly as he had hoped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm
I've not seen the whole programme yet, however, from what I have seen I've seen other politicians being treated worse. He can't hack it because he's ill-educated and delusuional. |
I watched it and was really disappointed. From the word go it was just an anti bnp-fest. I thought the idea was to be discussing issues and have all the panelists' takes on it. But no. It was a lets gang up on Griffin fest - with even Dimbleby in on it. It was more as if Griffin was in some Kangaroo court with the way he getting asked things like "do you deny saying [whatever]".
And what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel?
Straw I had to laugh at with his world war rhetoric as some sort of justification for today's state of play on immigration. It was a very different story not so long ago from Labour with their stance on the Gurka soldiers settling here. Shame nobody picked him up on that.
In my opinion, it was more of a kangaroo court than Question Time and the panelists all let themselves down badly. I can't help but wonder if they went down that road on purpose to avoid having to have any meaningful discussion. |
without agreeing with griiffin in anyway it was the closest thing i have seen to school yard bullying i have ever seen. griiffin was shown not to be any kind of politician but just an idiotic and shambolic figurehead and mouthpiece.
it was an anti-bnp fest indeed.
that middleclass liberal audience did not represent the views of the many, many people who support the bnp for whatever reason. that was wrong.
the funniest part was when the chap said we would like to throw you out of the country - ehhhmmmmmmm irony or what.
this hijacking of griffin will only increase his vote at the election. i will never vote bnp but i did feel sorry for him in the way the usual qt format was abandoned and he was just a target for hate and anger.
as for the facists outside rioting? scumbags. |
hahahahha i've just seen the show described as jeremy kyle for the liberal elite. perfect.
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Alasdair
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| Stevie wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | Appears the BNP are at 22% in the polls and Mandy reckons they'll get a boost at or after the election (just as I suggested yesterday), my predictions are usually not too far off the mark... but this is a special case.
22%... and Labour have how much? |
That figure must be wrong. Where did you find that?!
In the 2005 GE they polled just 0.7% (192,746 votes) of the vote, in the 2007 SE they took 1.2% (24,616) of the regional vote, in the EU vote this year they took 6.2% (943,598 votes) of the votes.
The EU election say a marked increase but was against the background of the Labour party losing 6.9% of it's vote which appears to have been shared out amongst the other parties. Also a huge number of people failed to turn out.
Anyway, it seems *extremely* unlikely that their potential share of the vote should have leapt to 22%! |
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/...ppearance/Article/200910415414525
SkyNews, seems it's a Telegraph poll and that ~43 % of the population in England have sympathy with a number of their policies. |
Hmm, curious. I really can't see how such poll results would be right, and 'considering' and 'having sympathy for' is still a long way from actually making the leap to 'vote for'. I do however see your point.
I imagine that the poll results are a reflection of the recent spate of publicity as well as a poorly handled question time. Maybe even a novelty factor.
I would be extremely concerned to see such a large growth in actual support (as opposed to potential support).
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Dave Coull
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| Fidget wrote: | | what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel? |
The only thing strange about this is that you should think she was "only there because of her colour". It is NORMAL, every week, to have somebody on the Question Time panel who distances themselves from "politics". Most certainly not an "ordinary person", you understand, but somebody who has made a name for themselves in some area of public life other than politics. Every Question Time panel includes one non-politician. They have had businessmen, professional comedians, musicians, artists, religious figures, etc. On this particular occasion they had Bonnie Greer, Deputy Chairman of the British Museum's Board of Trustees. Greer has written and produced many plays on both sides of the Atlantic. She is Arts Council of England Playwright in Residence for the London based Pascal Theatre Company. She was theatre critic for Time Out and is a frequent contributor to television, radio and newspaper reviews. She is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts and a Member of the Franco-British Council.
The case for including her on Question Time, on grounds of being an Arts person who is also responsible to the public (as Deputy Chairman of the British Museum) is clear. The odd thing is that you should think she was "only there because of her colour". I think the decision to seat her right next to Nick Griffin may have been made on grounds of the visual impact, but hey, it's colour television we're talking about, visual impact matters to the producers of programmes. In fact, visual impact would matter to them even if it was black and white television......
As it happens, I think Greer made a couple of good and thoughtful points. For instance, she pointed out how short Griffin's history of the British Isles was, and where the first inhabitants came from, and she invited him along to the British Museum to learn about the Roman legions from Africa and Asia who were stationed here for a couple of centuries, and who shacked up with native women, and whose descendants are still here (and yet some of those descendants want to "keep Britain white"...........)
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Dave Coull
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| Alasdair wrote: | | I would be extremely concerned to see such a large growth in actual support (as opposed to potential support). |
I think we are very unlikely to see such a large increase in actual support, as distinct from potential support, even in England. I'm certainly not in favour of complacency, but neither am I in favour of exaggerating their strength. However, having said that, let's just suppose for one minute that they really did get significant support, IN ENGLAND , at the next election. This is the "Our Scotland" forum, so let's consider the impact of that on Scotland. I think we can safely say that there is no way they would get anything like that level of support in Scotland. Not because the Scots are intrinsically less racist than the English (that would be a racist thing to suggest) but because the Scots have an alternative to the metropolitan political parties which is not available to people in England. So, what if there is a rise in BNP representation in England, but a markedly different result in Scotland? The BNP are ardent Unionists, supporters of Strong Central Government from London, but the more success they have in England, the more marked the difference between Scotland and England becomes. Next year, here in Scotland, we will, hopefully, be having a referendum on independence. It will be interesting to see the Far Right of British politics chafing at its irrelevance to that process.
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Fidget
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QT wasn't about arty farty theatre productions - although anybody could be forgiven for thinking that it was just a badly scripted school play in the end. It was about highly sensitive political issues which she quite happily stated she knows nothing about. So why was she on the panel?
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Dave Coull
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| landg wrote: | | i did feel sorry for him |
And there will be many other people who felt the same way. And there will be members of the BNP who felt the same way. But there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a Strong Leader......."
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Dave Coull
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| Fidget wrote: | | why was she on the panel? |
This has already been answered. All Question Time panels include one non-politician, and the reasons for choosing Bonnie Greer to fill that role on this occasion are obvious.
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Fidget
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Yes, they are indeed obvious and it's nothing whatsoever to do with her thoughts.
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Dave Coull
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| Rinty wrote: | | fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. A party based on a national identity defined by race |
That "defined by race" is important. The Scottish National Party is obviously quite keen on Scottish identity, but it encourages multi-ethnicity and it formed "New Scots For Independence" with the intention of showing that you can be an immigrant and play a full part in Scottish political life. By contrast, the BNP has whites-only membership rules and is only thinking about maybe changing them now because they've been told they aren't a legal party if they don't. Given the BNP's history, any change will be purely cosmetic, and, in view of the BNP's blatant racism, they are unlikely to attract much non-white support. | Quote: | | who believe in an authoritarian mono-culture |
Again, this certainly applies to the BNP. So far as they are concerned, only one hundred percent red-white-and-blue Britishness should be tolerated. If the BNP ever got anywhere near power, they would act against the SNP and Plaid Cymru as well as against muslims, jews, socialists, liberals, and just about anybody who didn't fit in with their authoritarian mono-culture. In fact some of their activists can't wait for power, and already do this in an "unofficial" sort of way.An un-scientific belief which Darwin himself, and most scientists following in his footsteps, would have found repellent | Quote: | | and linked to national religions and/or mythology would fit the bill, the BNP are all of that. |
Yes. The only thing I think you missed out is the fascist belief in a Strong Leader. It was Mussolini's party in Italy which first used the term "fascist", and they saw Mussolini as their Strong Leader. Sir Oswald Mosley followed Mussolini's example, with his British Union of Fascists, as did Adolf Hitler in Germany. Adolf's party didn't include the Italian word "fascist" in its title, it was called the National Socialist Democratic Workers Party, but it had all of the same characteristics by the bucketload. As does the BNP.
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Holebender
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National Socialist German Workers Party
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Dave Coull
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| Holebender wrote: | | National Socialist German Workers Party |
Okay, I stand corrected on that point. So, here is the revised version of what I had to say. Does anybody see any mistakes in the main point I was making about the nature of fascism? | Rinty wrote: | | fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. A party based on a national identity defined by race |
That "defined by race" is important. The Scottish National Party is obviously quite keen on Scottish identity, but it encourages multi-ethnicity and it formed "New Scots For Independence" with the intention of showing that you can be an immigrant and play a full part in Scottish political life. By contrast, the BNP has whites-only membership rules and is only thinking about maybe changing them now because they've been told they aren't a legal party if they don't. Given the BNP's history, any change will be purely cosmetic, and, in view of the BNP's blatant racism, they are unlikely to attract much non-white support. | Quote: | | who believe in an authoritarian mono-culture |
Again, this certainly applies to the BNP. So far as they are concerned, only one hundred percent red-white-and-blue Britishness should be tolerated. If the BNP ever got anywhere near power, they would act against the SNP and Plaid Cymru as well as against muslims, jews, socialists, liberals, and just about anybody who didn't fit in with their authoritarian mono-culture. In fact some of their activists can't wait for power, and already do this in an "unofficial" sort of way.An un-scientific belief which Darwin himself, and most scientists following in his footsteps, would have found repellent | Quote: | | and linked to national religions and/or mythology would fit the bill, the BNP are all of that. |
Yes. The only thing I think you missed out is the fascist belief in a Strong Leader. It was Mussolini's party in Italy which first used the term "fascist", and they saw Mussolini as their Strong Leader. Sir Oswald Mosley followed Mussolini's example, with his British Union of Fascists, as did Adolf Hitler in Germany. Adolf's party didn't include the Italian word "fascist" in its title, it was called the National Socialist German Workers Party, but it had all of the same characteristics by the bucketload. As does the BNP.
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Rinty
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"Don't you ever wonder why that is so, though?"
This was a question referring to my statement that fascism was a term that was 'loosely' used.
No, I dont wonder why this is, I think i is pretty obvious, fascism is synonymous with authoritarianism so any authoritarian boss is called this because it is an exageration of his position, similar to using atilla the hun.
Also, I would think it is often due to a misunderstanding of the original term and/or the groups that grew under that banner.
I think its pretty obvious that the BNP are fascists, it might be used inappropriately in many cases, but not this time.
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Dave Coull
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| Rinty wrote: | | fascism is synonnymous with authoritarianism |
I realise you were giving that as an example of the extremely "loose" way this term tends to get used, rather than saying that's what you think yourself, Rinty.
The statement that the West Indies is a group of islands is true, but the statement that a group of islands is the West Indies is not true. Although the West Indies is a group of islands, there are many groups of islands, and not all of them are the West Indies. Similarly, it is true that all fascism is authoritarian, but it is not true that anything authoritarian is automatically fascism. Also, it is true that fascism tends to be violent, but it is not true that all violence is fascism. There are instance of every political and religious ideology using violence - just look at how the forces of democracy bombed and blasted their way from the Normandy beaches to the heartland of Germany. Communism, conservatism, liberalism, socialism, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, even Buddhists, all use violence. So neither authoritarianism nor violence is a DEFINING characteristic of fascism.
True defining characteristics of fascism, which apply to ALL of the original fascist organisations (Mussolini's fascists in Italy, the British Union of Fascists, and the German Nazis) are that it is based on a national identity DEFINED BY RACE, it is linked with a national religion OR mythology, it involves a desire to impose an authoritarian mono-culture, it involves social darwinism, and, of course, it involves a belief in a Strong Leader. Loads of different political and religious movements have SOME of these characteristics. Only fascism has them all.
And there can be little doubt the BNP fits the description.
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Stevie
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So far, here as everywhere people have largely attacked the assumption of existing fascism and the BNP as a personality so to speak.
I don't see fascist policies on their websites and I do see 22% support for them in England.
Still, nobody is attacking their policies rather they attack what they perceive as the threat of fascism.
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Dave Coull
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| Stevie wrote: | | So far, here as everywhere people have largely attacked the assumption of existing fascism and the BNP as a personality so to speak. |
Fascism does exist. It has had a continuous existence since the 1930s. In the case of Nick Griffin, his family have been involved with fascism since his granddaddy was in the British Union of Fascists. Nick was taken to his first National Front meeting by daddy at age 15, he founded the Young NF when at Cambridge University, he became National Organiser of the National Front, when the NF split up into different fascist groupings he joined first one, and then later another one, the BNP. But although fascism has taken various forms over the years, it has a continuous existence since the 1930s. Fascism has certain defining characteristics, which have been set out here. The BNP meets all of them. | Stevie wrote: | | I don't see fascist policies on their websites |
I don't think you know what fascism is. | Stevie wrote: | | I do see 22% support for them in England. |
No, you don't.
What you saw was an opinion poll which appeared to suggest that 22 percent might consider voting for them. However, that very same opinion poll suggested that the percentage who WOULD vote for them was 4%. It remains to be seen what percentage will actually vote for them when it comes to a real poll. In any case, regardless of the level of support for fascism, fascism should always be opposed.
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Alasdair
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| Stevie wrote: | | I don't see fascist policies on their websites and I do see 22% support for them in England. |
A poll in todays Independent (pg.5) puts support for the BNP at 2%. The 22% figure is a nonsense from start to finish.
Also in the poll:
Conservative 40%
Labour 27%
Lib Dems 18%
Geen 5%
UKIP 3%
SNP 3%
BNP 2%
Others 2%
The full tables are apparently at http://www.comres.co.uk
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jamesieboy
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Anyone watch Crimewatch UK?
One point that Griffin does make and other parties tend to shy away from, is that many of the most vicious criminals seem to be foreign.
Tonight's programme had seven of the most wanted criminals foreign.
Why is the liberal establishment and the metropolitan elite afraid of asking questions about this issue?
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Stevie
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[quote="Alasdair"] | Stevie wrote: |
A poll in todays Independent (pg.5) puts support for the BNP at 2%. The 22% figure is a nonsense from start to finish.
The full tables are apparently at http://www.comres.co.uk |
Good
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Dave Coull
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| jamesieboy wrote: | | many of the most vicious criminals seem to be foreign. |
Of course they are. This is true in all countries. In all countries, it's folk from somewhere else who are most likely to be vicious criminals.
| jamesieboy wrote: | | the liberal establishment and the metropolitan elite |
That's funny. I could've sworn posh Home Counties boarding school and Cambridge toff Nicky Griffin used exactly that same phrase on the BBC. What are you, a parrot?
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landg
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| jamesieboy wrote: | Anyone watch Crimewatch UK?
One point that Griffin does make and other parties tend to shy away from, is that many of the most vicious criminals seem to be foreign.
Tonight's programme had seven of the most wanted criminals foreign.
Why is the liberal establishment and the metropolitan elite afraid of asking questions about this issue? |
the mad bomber megrahi.
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Dave Coull
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| jamesieboy wrote: | | Anyone watch Crimewatch UK? |
and received the reply from "landg" | Quote: | | the mad bomber megrahi |
Which proves that oranges are purple.
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Ultra
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| Alasdair wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | | I don't see fascist policies on their websites and I do see 22% support for them in England. |
A poll in todays Independent (pg.5) puts support for the BNP at 2%. The 22% figure is a nonsense from start to finish.
Also in the poll:
Conservative 40%
Labour 27%
Lib Dems 18%
Geen 5%
UKIP 3%
SNP 3%
BNP 2%
Others 2%
The full tables are apparently at http://www.comres.co.uk |
Look nonsense on the BBC and Daily Telegraph sites don't it Mr M?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8323638.stm
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Alasdair
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The nonsense part is that people are suggesting that the BNP are going to have a MASSIVE 20% rise in polling come the GE, it won't happen, it's a nonsense notion.
To try and suggest that this will translate into actual polling is utterly ridiculous, really, people may sympathise with the way Griffin was treated (although I can't imagine why), they may even briefly consider voting for his party but I think you'll find that on reflection all but a minority of around 2% will actually realise that the party is odious and despicable.
The fact that a poll which asks about specific polling intentions rather than fluffy questions about would you consider this or that should show the lie in the original poll being discussed.
I might consider voting BNP, but I'd discard the notion almost immedietly.
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TrueBrit
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The British National Party is not a fascist or racist party but a democratic political party, pledged to uphold the democratic principles of our Parliament. In fact the British National Party is the only political party that will restore to the British people our ancient freedoms and inherited liberties as are denoted in Magna Carta and the 1688 Bill of Rights which have been compromised by Britain’s membership of the European Union.
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Dave Coull
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"True Brit" wrote | Quote: | | our ancient freedoms and inherited liberties as are denoted in Magna Carta |
Strangely enough, the extreme Right in the USA also have an odd fondness for that document intended to consolidate the power of the barons and the aristocracy over their serfs and their slaves. But at least they do have a sort of excuse, the legal system of the USA was based on that of England. The Scottish legal system, on the other hand, wasn't.
You obviously don't know much about Scotland, or Scottish history, or Scottish law, "True Brit".
Magna Carta has NEVER applied here.
It is a purely English document without any application in Scottish law or Scottish life whatsoever.
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Dave Coull
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| TrueBrit wrote: | | The British National Party is not a fascist or racist party |
The "racist" bit is undeniable. Any party whose membership rules state that some people will be excluded from membership on the grounds of race is, by definition, a racist party. You might as well try to claim that the Ku Klux Klan is not a racist organisation. Even your party Leader has acknowledged that the membership rules of the BNP are in breach of the UK's anti-discrimination laws. He says the rules will be changed, but obviously that will take time, and will have to be done at a party conference, and there might be some opposition from within the party to such a change. In any case, even if the rule change does eventually go ahead, it will only be happening as a formal gesture to keep the party "legal". It won't really change the fundamentally racist nature of the BNP.
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Dave Coull
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| TrueBrit wrote: | | The British National Party is not a fascist or racist party |
We have already established that the BNP is "racist". What about "fascist"? The Oxford English Dictionary's definition of fascism refers to it as being of the "nationalistic right wing" and the Oxford dictionary states "origin - 1920s (with reference to Mussolini's regime in Italy)". The Cambridge dictionary's definition refers to a politics involving "a very powerful leader" and "being extremely proud of country AND RACE". Here on this forum, "Magister Ludi" provided a link to a website giving an "economic" definition of fascism which can be found at http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html
Yes, on the grounds of their extreme form of British Nationalism, and their racism, and even their economic policies, the BNP is fascist.
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TrueBrit
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The SNP are proud of their nation and the Scottish people as a race so are you saying they are facist?
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TrueBrit
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The "racist" bit is undeniable. Any party whose membership rules state that some people will be excluded from membership on the grounds of race is, by definition, a racist party[/quote]
So every organisation that excists to solely promote/protect the rights of a certain ethnic group is racist?
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Holebender
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The SNP is a civic nationalist organisation. Race does not enter into it; what concerns the SNP and its supporters is the good governance of the territory of Scotland. The backgrounds, ancestors, etc. of the people living within Scotland are of no interest to the SNP or those who support the SNP.
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Dave Coull
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I wrote | Quote: | | Any party whose membership rules state that some people will be excluded from membership on the grounds of race is, by definition, a racist party |
| TrueBrit wrote: | | So every organisation that excists to solely promote/protect the rights of a certain ethnic group is racist? |
If there is such a thing as an outfit called "Save-The-Amazonian-Native-Tribes-From-Extinction", then, PROVIDED IT'S MEMBERSHIP IS OPEN TO EVERYBODY, and not just to Amazonian natives, it might be argued that isn't a racist organisation as such. But an organisation whose membership rules discriminate on racial grounds is, by definition, a racist organisation. You might as well try to claim that the Ku Klux Klan is not a racist organisation. Even your party Leader has acknowledged that the membership rules of the BNP are in breach of the UK's anti-discrimination laws. He says the rules will be changed, but obviously that will take time, and it will have to be done at a party conference, and there might be opposition from within the party to any such a change. In any case, even if the rule change does eventually go ahead, it will only be happening as a formal gesture to keep the party "legal". It won't alter the fact that the BNP was founded as a specifically racist party. | TrueBrit wrote: | | The SNP are proud of their nation and the Scottish people as a race |
So how come I've heard speakers from the SNP proudly saying that the Scots are a bunch of "mongrels"? Nation yes, race, no. The SNP isn't a racist party. The BNP is.
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Stevie
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GRIFFIN COULD MAKE OUR ELECTRICITY RACIST, CLAIMS SELLAFIELD
BNP lunatic Nick Griffin has been banned from the Sellafield nuclear plant amid fears he could make Britain's electricity all racist and homophobic.
The Nazis made racist electricity by rubbing against each other at Nuremberg
Managers at the plant warned that a visit by Mr Griffin and his gang of bald henchmen could contaminate the uranium rods deep inside the reactor core.
Manager Roy Hobbs said: "Most people know that uranium is a highly unstable element. What they don't know is that it's also very impressionable.
"All it would take is for Mr Griffin to utter the phrase 'white power' and these weak-minded atoms would quickly turn large sections of the National Grid into the electro-magnetic equivalent of a Nuremberg rally."
He added: "This thuggish, extreme right-wing electricity would then refuse to enter the homes of people from ethnic minorities in the mistaken belief that they will use it to make more babies.
"Synagogues would face black-outs and gay nightclubs would be without their pulsating lights and heavy bass. They would, quite literally, be dancing in the dark.
"Meanwhile these racist electrons would then attempt to hijack the Royal British Legion, lighting it up like a Christmas tree until it starts to throb and hum. It could easily terrify local cats and dogs."
But Tom Logan, professor of physics at Reading University, insisted only a tiny minority of uranium atoms hate foreigners, adding: "Do you think we'll ever stop making a fuss about this stupid Nazi oaf?"
THE DAILY MASH.
04-11-09
The only truly reliable newspaper
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TrueBrit
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The backgrounds, ancestors, etc. of the people living within Scotland are of no interest to the SNP
A lot of SNP supporters will be suprised to hear that! A nationalist party that has no interest in its people!!
Most SNP types hate the English!!!
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landg
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f**k.comedy newspaper in it is must be real shocker.
what next Mademoiselle STEVIE.
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Aventinian
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| TrueBrit wrote: | | The SNP are proud of their nation and the Scottish people as a race so are you saying they are facist? |
They don't support a Scottish race, but rather a Scottish 'nation'. Which I think it just as bad - and in some ways, potentially worse - but there we go.
The SNP have been admirable in supporting other races as part of this Scottish society, which is fine, but that alone I do not believe makes them the 'civic nationalist' party they apparently want to be. Their nationalism is not particularly civic, it is identity-based.
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magister ludi
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| Holebender wrote: | | The SNP is a civic nationalist organisation. |
Can anybody tell me who coined the expression "civic nationalism" and who "popularised" it in its scottish context?
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Stevie
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I don't know, personally I'd decapitate the enemy.
Actually braveheart, most SNP types don't hate the English and I far prefer English women to the Scottish variety.
This may surprise you but, it's not about race, gender, creed or whatever other prejudice you'd bring to the table. It's about sovereignty.
Most Scots would be very happy to see anybody of any race, skin tone, ancestry share in an independent Scotland.
And I know your BNP friend Truebrit might not share that perspective or you yourself with your New Tory leanings, but you can love something without hating something else.
BUT, the very fact you brought it up speaks volumes about your own perspectives and prejudices. Actually, it's the first time I've heard anyone on this site mention it.
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landg
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| Stevie wrote: | I don't know, personally I'd decapitate the enemy.
Actually braveheart, most SNP types don't hate the English and I far prefer English women to the Scottish variety.
This may surprise you but, it's not about race, gender, creed or whatever other prejudice you'd bring to the table. It's about sovereignty.
Most Scots would be very happy to see anybody of any race, skin tone, ancestry share in an independent Scotland.
And I know your BNP friend Truebrit might not share that perspective or you yourself with your New Tory leanings, but you can love something without hating something else.
BUT, the very fact you brought it up speaks volumes about your own perspectives and prejudices. Actually, it's the first time I've heard anyone on this site mention it. |
Most british people be very happy to see anybody of any race, skin tone, ancestry share in an britain.
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Stevie
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| landg wrote: | | Most british people be very happy to see anybody of any race, skin tone, ancestry share in an britain. |
I see you've started insufflating again.
Tell that to Truebrit.
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landg
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| Stevie wrote: | | landg wrote: | | Most british people be very happy to see anybody of any race, skin tone, ancestry share in an britain. |
I see you've started insufflating again.
Tell that to Truebrit. |
i just did.
i'm sure he can rrad the same as you.
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Dave Coull
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| landg wrote: | | Most british people be very happy to see anybody of any race, skin tone, ancestry share in an britain. |
While finding landg's reference to "an britain" a bit confusing, I think there's quite a lot of truth in that. | Stevie wrote: | | Most Scots would be very happy to see anybody of any race, skin tone, ancestry share in an independent Scotland. |
Again, quite a lot of truth in that. Quite a lot of truth in both these statements. Isn't it nice that we're agreeing on something.
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Stevie
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landg is quite an agreable chap.
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landg
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| Stevie wrote: | | landg is quite an agreable chap. |
dave since your on grammar and speeling duty...............
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Stevie
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I take it, in your confused state, you think I've misspelt something.
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Alasdair
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| TrueBrit wrote: | | Most SNP types hate the English!!! |
Ha! The only people who I know to be SNP members ARE English ...
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landg
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| Stevie wrote: | | I take it, in your confused state, you think I've misspelt something. |
unless for some obscure reason your writing in english and french.hmmm................
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Holebender
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| landg wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | | landg is quite an agreable chap. |
dave since your on grammar and speeling duty............... |
Speeling? tsk tsk
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Alasdair
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| Holebender wrote: | | landg wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | | landg is quite an agreable chap. |
dave since your on grammar and speeling duty............... |
Speeling? tsk tsk |
irony?
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Stevie
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I think he may have double vision or basically he's just reading and writing challenged.
Still, he seems happy and seems to be very much enjoying his own 'joke'.
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Dave Coull
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I don't do irony.
I just hang my shirts up and let them drip dry. They may be a wee bit wrinkled but it's less bother than irony.
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landg
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hahahahahahha.
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Stevie
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This thread could probably just die now and not be mourned.
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landg
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yep, smeaton regarded as a right wing extremist.pathetic.
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Stevie
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Not mourned at all...
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landg
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| Stevie wrote: | | Not mourned at all... |
same here.
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Stevie
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It would then be nice if azzuri could just close this pointless thread?
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Ultra
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| Stevie wrote: | | It would then be nice if azzuri could just close this pointless thread? |
Why don't you like freedom of speech Stevie?
Or is it just people who do not agree with you?
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Stevie
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Read the posts just before yours.
It would be a good habit to adopt.
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Ultra
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| Stevie wrote: | Read the posts just before yours.
It would be a good habit to adopt. |
So peoples comments on this thread are pointless in your opinion?
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Alasdair
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Well, all the comments on this page are pointless. Including this one.
Stevie, if you don't like a thread then leave it be.
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Rinty
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"ancient freedoms and inherited liberties as are denoted in Magna Carta"
Brilliant 
It's stretching it to call the 13th century "ancient' but its no surprise that the BNP identify weith the Magna carta as it conatained a clause about "jews" and restrictions to "jews" lending money.
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