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calum
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Bnp list at WikileaksInteresting bedtime reading.
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/British..._other_information%2C_15_Apr_2009
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landg
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wrong in so many ways. names, telephone numbers, postcodes and in some cases address.
a shocking thing to do to anyone.
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calum
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Maybe i'm out of sympathy. Years ago i had friends attacked and beaten up by the BNP and their pals for being trade unionists, anti-racists, Irish, coloured and gay.
I also know of others who've been attacked or had shoite put through their letter boxes. Even a disabled person's car at York Uni was vandalised.
I aint gonna stoop to their level, but folk who join a bunch of evil fanatics like the BNP deserve to be exposed. Hate mongers.
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Dave Coull
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It has been suggested that support for the BNP is growing, but is that true? They managed to get a couple of MEPs elected at the Euro elections, but without actually getting any more votes than they'd had before. What enabled them to make this "breakthrough" was supporters of other parties, particularly the Labour Party, staying at home. You can blame politicians failing to provide people with hope, while at the same time claiming ludicrous expenses and other benefits for themselves, for that. Appearing on Question Time will probably give the BNP a bit of a boost for a time, but, from details about the party that have leaked out, it looks like they have a very high turnover of membership. It seems that, even when people join, the BNP has a big problem over getting them to renew membership for a second year. We certainly shouldn't be complacent, but neither should we give the BNP a boost by exaggerating. Compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure. Even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway.
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landg
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| calum wrote: | Maybe i'm out of sympathy. Years ago i had friends attacked and beaten up by the BNP and their pals for being trade unionists, anti-racists, Irish, coloured and gay.
I also know of others who've been attacked or had shoite put through their letter boxes. Even a disabled person's car at York Uni was vandalised.
I aint gonna stoop to their level, but folk who join a bunch of evil fanatics like the BNP deserve to be exposed. Hate mongers. |
by agreeing with personal details being leaked onto the web you actually did just stoop to the low levels of a facist group.
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Ultra
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | It has been suggested that support for the BNP is growing, but is that true? They managed to get a couple of MEPs elected at the Euro elections, but without actually getting any more votes than they'd had before. What enabled them to make this "breakthrough" was supporters of other parties, particularly the Labour Party, staying at home. You can blame politicians failing to provide people with hope, while at the same time claiming ludicrous expenses and other benefits for themselves, for that. Appearing on Question Time will probably give the BNP a bit of a boost for a time, but, from details about the party that have leaked out, it looks like they have a very high turnover of membership. It seems that, even when people join, the BNP has a big problem over getting them to renew membership for a second year. We certainly shouldn't be complacent, but neither should we give the BNP a boost by exaggerating. Compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure. Even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway. |
I was down in a town at Yorkshire at the weekend. There was a massive BNP stall right in the middle of a town centre and a few leftie types from ANL set up a stall across from them trading insults.
After watching Question Time I think some of the main stream political parties are becoming complacent if they believe the BNP vote isn't on the rise and people won't be voting for them.
I had spoken to a few people out and about in Yorkshire and listened to comments on why they would vote BNP. Most is around immigration and myths on benefits or jobs.
The other problem is alot of mis-quoting and garbage are talked about the BNP. I watched an live interview with Nick Griffen on the lunch time news which by tea time newx was heavily edited out of context....
Just let the BNP buffoons speak. It's far easier to expose them for what they are than giving them ammo.
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Dave Coull
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As I pointed out earlier, compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure; even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway. And having just watched Question Time, I have to say Nick Griffin was pathetic . Time for a new fuehrer?
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Ultra
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | As I pointed out earlier, compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure; even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway. And having just watched Question Time, I have to say Nick Griffin was pathetic . Time for a new fuehrer? |
I think you will be surprised then come the next elections with the level of support the BNP will get.
They never really got much support in Scotland. But in alot of these wee deprived towns in England people are voting for them and willing to ignore what they stand for.
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Dave Coull
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| I wrote: | | As I pointed out earlier, compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure; even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway. And having just watched Question Time, I have to say Nick Griffin was pathetic . Time for a new fuehrer? |
Note that Nick Griffin was an abject failure as National Organiser of the National Front, a position he held from 1978 onwards. Under his "national organising", the NF lost members and split up into rival far-right groups in the 1980s. When it split, Griffin was initially in a group called the "International Third Position", but later joined the BNP. There was little or no ideological difference involved, the main issue was who got to be Leader. Griffin ousted the then leader of the BNP four years after joining it. | Ultra wrote: | | I think you will be surprised then come the next elections with the level of support the BNP will get. |
Will I? I know they got two Euro MEPs elected, but that was actually on a LOWER vote than they received at the previous euro election. The reason they managed to get elected despite fewer votes was that the fall in the Labour vote was much bigger. Yes, it's possible the same thing could happen again. I will not be too surprised if they manage to get somebody elected without getting more votes. But it's still true that | Quote: | | compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure; even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway |
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Stevie
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| Ultra wrote: | I think you will be surprised then come the next elections with the level of support the BNP will get.
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I agree.
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The Lithgae Jambo
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Will I? I know they got two Euro MEPs elected, but that was actually on a LOWER vote than they received at the previous euro election. The reason they managed to get elected despite fewer votes was that the fall in the Labour vote was much bigger. Yes, it's possible the same thing could happen again. I will not be too surprised if they manage to get somebody elected without getting more votes. |
They are far less likely to get anyone elected at the general election. They got their EP seats because of proportional representation.
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Ultra
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure; even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway |
Dave. What do you base this on? What the leftie media tells you? Alot of selective editing goes on with regards to the BNP. I saw a live interview with Griffin earlier this week on the lunch time news which was heavily edited out of context by the tea time news.
I base my opinion on being down in an English city 6 months ago on a Saturday afternoon when the BNP had a small stall with half a dozen people and then being in the same English town last Saturday and the BNP had a massive stall and a massive crowd surrounding it. I even took pictures. Village of the damned type people.
Also, the Anti Nazi League had set up a counter stall right across from them last weekend and they were being mocked by passers by.
Sounds like the BNP are getting far more attention to me if the ANL bothered to turn up and Griffin has been featured in live interviews on various news channels all week.
A fair few people I spoken too were quite open about voting BNP these days and this is an ex-mining and army town. Traditional Labour territory. People are using language about protecting their kids future interests, their jobs, and shelling out tax payers money keeping asylum seekers housed and benefits. Being sold down the river by the main stream political parties.
You also have a fair few EDL demostrations going on in main English towns and in Glasgow in the next few weeks.
The type of people who vote BNP are the sort who buy into what the BNP say and believe what they spout about immigration and asylum seekers. They are not intelligent enough to go and check out the facts and statistics. The media and left wing don't help things by trying to put BNP members out of a job or having violent confrontations with the right wing playing into the BNP hands.
A few people are even questioning why the establishment would want to ban a legitimate political party. Democracy indeed.
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Stevie
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I think policy wise, the BNP activists will address many of the concerns of English voters on the doorstep.
Labour are dead, the corpse is rotting waiting to be embalmed and the Tories will strike many disillusioned Labour voters as wealthy self-interested gits (although after the expenses scandal we can see they're all gits).
The LibDems haven't had a decent upswing since before the name LibDem came into existence and thus I agree with Ultra that the BNP could pull a few surprises.
They won't win a GE but they could generate momentum and kill Labour off after the next GE.
Oh incidentally, I'm still predicting Har Har as the next Labour leader, although what will she have left to lead...
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Dave Coull
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| Ultra wrote: | | a fair few EDL demostrations going on in main English towns and in Glasgow in the next few weeks |
The English Defense League are planning an excursion over the border to demonstrate in Glasgow? That should be quite interesting.
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Stevie
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | a fair few EDL demostrations going on in main English towns and in Glasgow in the next few weeks |
The English Defense League are planning an excursion over the border to demonstrate in Glasgow? That should be quite interesting. |
I do hope they come up on a Saturday during an old firm game.
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Dave Coull
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I wrote that | Quote: | | having just watched Question Time, I have to say Nick Griffin was pathetic |
Well, apparently the BNP are now complaining that Griffin was "set up" by a "kangaroo court". That just makes him look even more pathetic. Remember when George Galloway was called to face a televised Hearing of the United States Senate? The senators intended that to be something of a kangaroo court. Now, I'm no supporter of GG, or of his party, or of many of his political stances, but, let's face it, the Senators got more than they bargained for, from that political bruiser. He wiped the floor with the lot of them. Can you imagine George being intimidated by a hostile Question Time? Come to that, can you imagine Alex Salmond being intimidated? Nick Griffin complaining of being "set up" just adds to what I said before: he looked pathetic. Generally speaking, if the fuehrer of a far right party allows himself to look pathetic, this may result in his leadership being on a shoogly peg. | I wrote: | | compared with some other European right wing parties, the BNP is a bit of a failure; even in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves, the BNP is making little real headway |
| Ultra wrote: | | Dave. What do you base this on? What the leftie media tells you? |
Which "leftie media" would that be? I didn't buy a paper today, but yesterday I bought the "Times". On Sunday, I bought the "Sunday Telegraph". I also, every day, read the paper that my sister buys, the "Courier"; and, on Monday, I read her "Sunday Post". True, I do sometimes buy the "Independent" or the "Guardian", as well as sometimes the "Scotsman" or the "Herald" . But no, my opinions are not based on anything that I read in any of them. | Ultra wrote: | | I base my opinion on being down in an English city 6 months ago on a Saturday afternoon |
| Quote: | | and then being in the same English town last Saturday |
A very narrow basis for an opinion. I base my view of how the BNP did in the European elections on the published results for both the 2009 Euro election and the previous one. They got less votes, but managed to get two toffs elected because of the proportional system and the huge number of Labour voters who simply stayed at home. | Ultra wrote: | | Being sold down the river by the main stream political parties |
OF COURSE people feel like that. And of course people are using language about protecting their kids future interests etc. Like I said, we are | Quote: | | in the middle of a recession, with the parliamentary parties doing their best to discredit themselves |
The surprising thing, considering we have high and rising unemployment, and savage attacks on the welfare of ordinary people, and both Labour and Tory politicians exposed as corrupt, is just how unimpressive the BNP "advance" actually is.
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Fidget
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Well, apparently the BNP are now complaining that Griffin was "set up" by a "kangaroo court". That just makes him look even more pathetic. Remember when George Galloway was called to face a televised Hearing of the United States Senate? The senators intended that to be something of a kangaroo court. Now, I'm no supporter of GG, or of his party, or of many of his political stances, but, let's face it, the Senators got more than they bargained for, from that political bruiser. He wiped the floor with the lot of them. Can you imagine George being intimidated by a hostile Question Time? Come to that, can you imagine Alex Salmond being intimidated? Nick Griffin complaining of being "set up" just adds to what I said before: he looked pathetic. |
I'm with Griffin on this one. It was a Kangaroo court scenario. This is not America, btw.
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Ultra
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| Dave Coull wrote: | I wrote that | Quote: | | having just watched Question Time, I have to say Nick Griffin was pathetic |
Well, apparently the BNP are now complaining that Griffin was "set up" by a "kangaroo court". That just makes him look even more pathetic. Remember when George Galloway was called to face a televised Hearing of the United States Senate? The senators intended that to be something of a kangaroo court. Now, I'm no supporter of GG, or of his party, or of many of his political stances, but, let's face it, the Senators got more than they bargained for, from that political bruiser. He wiped the floor with the lot of them. Can you imagine George being intimidated by a hostile Question Time? |
George Galloway has great trouble controlling his callers to his radio show and prefers to cut them off rather than answer any criticism or listening to differing points of view. Political heavy weight indeed  Usually found whining on how he is reporting this caller to the police or what abuse he received on email.
I saw Griffin on a live TV news interview this week and he equipped himself very well in dealing with the continually interruptions from the interviewer who continually mentioned how the BNP don't let blacks into their party rather un-constructively.
In all the years of watching Question Time I have never seen such a one sided panel and hostile audience and so many quotes being mentioned about one particular guest. You might as well have had Ali G on the panel asking Griffin 'Is it cos I'm black?'
So this is the democracy we live in these days? Freedom of speech except if you are in the BNP? Decent people now wondering if indeed the BNP have been right about a few things?
Straw couldn't answer a single direct question put to him and all he did was waffle on.
Did you learn anything about the main political parties policies? Naw.
The main political parties need to come up with a far more intelligent way of dealing with the BNP and Griffin because the whole racist, holocaust denying, not letting blacks in their party doesn't seem to be having much affect any more. The loony left are being shown up as just being as extremist and violent on many occasions too.
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Reluctant Hero
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| Ultra wrote: | | Decent people now wondering if indeed the BNP have been right about a few things? |
According to the BBC, a poll suggests 22% of people are seriouslly considering voting BNP in the election.
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Fidget
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| Ultra wrote: |
In all the years of watching Question Time I have never seen such a one sided panel and hostile audience and so many quotes being mentioned about one particular guest. You might as well have had Ali G on the panel asking Griffin 'Is it cos I'm black?' |
Well said. Well said indeed. Yet the panel and folks in the audience were probably thinking "we showed him". No.. they just showed themselves up for preferring to dodge than confront.
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Dave Coull
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| Ultra wrote: | | In all the years of watching Question Time I have never seen such a one sided panel and hostile audience |
Look, we are talking about a party leader who has tried to re-write the history of the Second World War, and whose fellow BNP Member of the European Parliament, Andrew Brons, was an active member of a group which actually called itself the National Socialist Movement, and which celebrated Adolf Hitler's birthday. OF COURSE there was going to be a great deal of hostility, that was only to be expected. But my point is how he handled the hostility. Although I am certainly no fan of George Galloway, it's a fact that he wiped the floor with those hostile United States senators. And when Alex Salmond faces a hostile audience, he certainly gives as good as he gets. Nick Griffin, on the other hand, looked like he was longing for the torment to stop.
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Fidget
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | In all the years of watching Question Time I have never seen such a one sided panel and hostile audience |
Look, we are talking about a party leader who has tried to re-write the history of the Second World War. |
This, I think, is a very interesting thing for anybody to say because History has been re-written to suit since the first recordings of it and transcriptions thereof. That is an undeniable fact that any Historian worth their salt will tell you. How can it be then that a certain event in history can have such an unequivocal "this is exactly what happened and no-one but no-one is allowed to dispute it" - even warranting a prison sentence in some countries. Was Griffin saying that it never at all happened, or was he disputing the recordings of it - as we all accept now as gospel. I don't know. But people need to be free to ponder these things. No-body would be vilified for dismissing that the immaculate conception didn't happen in the way the bible lays out.
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Ultra
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| Fidget wrote: | | Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | In all the years of watching Question Time I have never seen such a one sided panel and hostile audience |
Look, we are talking about a party leader who has tried to re-write the history of the Second World War. |
This, I think, is a very interesting thing for anybody to say because History has been re-written to suit since the first recordings of it and transcriptions thereof. That is an undeniable fact that any Historian worth their salt will tell you. How can it be then that a certain event in history can have such an unequivocal "this is exactly what happened and no-one but no-one is allowed to dispute it" - even warranting a prison sentence in some countries. Was Griffin saying that it never at all happened, or was he disputing the recordings of it - as we all accept now as gospel. I don't know. But people need to be free to ponder these things. No-body would be vilified for dismissing that the immaculate conception didn't happen in the way the bible lays out. |
And the thing you have to be really careful on is what Griffin or the BNP have said and what they have actually been reported as saying at a later date in the media. He's entitled to his opinion whether you believe it or not. Griffin didn't answer very much on holocaust denying because he could be prosecuted in other EU countries. This is true.
If I didn't see the live interview with Griffin the other day and Question Time too I may well have believed what was being said on the net or in the papers.
I somehow doubt you had members of the audience calling Salmond or Galloway a d!ck on air and it remaining in the programme. This happened last night.
I also doubt very much they received anything like the same level of hatred and anger directed towards Salmond or Galloway and I don't recall any mass demostrations or BBC Centre having a lock down either.
The programme didn't really follow any particular usual Question Time format. You might as well could just have an interview with Griffin playing right into the right wing extremists hands.
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Fidget
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I remember him saying something like "I don't have a conviction for denying the holocaust" or something like that. Fair enough. It was a question that should never have been asked in the first place. All just more deflection away from the rest of the nest.
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Ultra
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| Fidget wrote: | | I remember him saying something like "I don't have a conviction for denying the holocaust" or something like that. Fair enough. It was a question that should never have been asked in the first place. All just more deflection away from the rest of the nest. |
It's the bit about how Griffin supported the KKK because he shared a stage with one of them on a tour of the US. Or so the media made out.
Griffin actually said the KKK guy called him a sell out and he argued with him on the stage and the KKK don't like them or support them.
Griffin also quoted a far bit about what organized religions think in this country on certain issues like homosexuality.
They should have just treated Griffin like ever other guest and let him dig his own hole...
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Dave Coull
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There are some politicians who can handle hostile treatment, and who can give as good as they get, but in the case of posh private boarding school boy Griffin | I wrote: | | Look, we are talking about a party leader who has tried to re-write the history of the Second World War, and whose fellow BNP Member of the European Parliament, Andrew Brons, was an active member of a group which actually called itself the National Socialist Movement, and which celebrated Adolf Hitler's birthday. OF COURSE there was going to be a great deal of hostility, that was only to be expected. |
And Fidget decided to ignore the bit about the National Socialist Movement and celebrating Hitler's birthday and talk in much more general terms about history being constantly re-written, which was a bit beside the point. The fact is, whether you think Griffin and the BNP have been unfairly portrayed or not, they are widely perceived as being Nazis, so, like I said | Quote: | | OF COURSE there was going to be a great deal of hostility, that was only to be expected. But MY POINT IS how he handled the hostility. |
And he handled the hostility very badly. Like I said, he looked pathetic.
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Fidget
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The KKK is just a showing of the hysterics of it. It's Britain, it's 2009, and does anybody sound of mind really read anything into that? Whatever next? Demands for apologies for slavery.. oops.. that's already been thwarted - by the labour party.
I just don't see the hysterics over Nick Giffin and the BNP.
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Fidget
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| Dave Coull wrote: | And Fidget decided to ignore the bit about the National Socialist Movement and celebrating Hitler's birthday and talk in much more general terms about history being constantly re-written, which was a bit beside the point. The fact is, whether you think Griffin and the BNP have been unfairly portrayed or not, they are widely perceived as being Nazis, so, like I said | Quote: | | OF COURSE there was going to be a great deal of hostility, that was only to be expected. But MY POINT IS how he handled the hostility. |
And he handled the hostility very badly. Like I said, he looked pathetic. |
Well I thought Griffin did quite well seeing as the whole of panel was against him including the host, and so were much of the audience, not to mention the TV viewers. Odds were well and truly stacked against him. That is not democracy in action, and when all is said and done democracy in action is what we all want to see. QT last night wasn't it.
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Dave Coull
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I wrote | Quote: | | OF COURSE there was going to be a great deal of hostility, that was only to be expected. But MY POINT IS how he handled the hostility. And he handled the hostility very badly. |
| Fidget wrote: | | I thought Griffin did quite well |
You are easily impressed. I think that, although it's quite possible some viewers may have felt sympathetic for the "poor man", there will be some amongst the BNP's own membership who were less impressed. They like to have a STRONG leader. Not one who looks a bit pathetic.
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Fidget
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How would you have fared in that same situation?
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Dave Coull
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| Fidget wrote: | | How would you have fared in that same situation? |
Extremely badly. But that's completely beside the point. I wouldn't be in the situation in the first place, because (1) I'm not a politician, (2) I'm not a member of a political party, (3) I'm not a candidate for any kind of office, and (4) I have no desire ever to take part in Question Time. Nick Griffin, on the other hand, did want to be on Question Time, he IS a professional politician, and he is the Leader of a political party. In fact, not only is he the leader of a political party, he is a leader of a Far Right political party, the kind of political party which, more than any other kind, demands that its Leader be a STRONG LEADER. So, while there will have been some viewers who sympathised with the "poor man", there are bound to have been some BNP members who considered his performance weak, and who must have asked themselves if somebody who could make such a pathetic showing is really the best Leader for their party.
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Fidget
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Fidget wrote: | | How would you have fared in that same situation? |
Extremely badly. |
That's what I thought.
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William_Cleland
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Something to ponder maybe about the BNP getting access to Question Time is that in the 1980s Francois Mitterand is believed to have deliberately encouraged mainstream media access for Jean-Marie Le Pen as a ploy to weaken the right wing Gaullists by creating a split in the right wing vote. Would BBC execs have done something this controversial without some sort of informal green light from 10 Downing Street?
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landg
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| Ultra wrote: | | Dave Coull wrote: | I wrote that | Quote: | | having just watched Question Time, I have to say Nick Griffin was pathetic |
Well, apparently the BNP are now complaining that Griffin was "set up" by a "kangaroo court". That just makes him look even more pathetic. Remember when George Galloway was called to face a televised Hearing of the United States Senate? The senators intended that to be something of a kangaroo court. Now, I'm no supporter of GG, or of his party, or of many of his political stances, but, let's face it, the Senators got more than they bargained for, from that political bruiser. He wiped the floor with the lot of them. Can you imagine George being intimidated by a hostile Question Time? |
George Galloway has great trouble controlling his callers to his radio show and prefers to cut them off rather than answer any criticism or listening to differing points of view. Political heavy weight indeed Usually found whining on how he is reporting this caller to the police or what abuse he received on email.
I saw Griffin on a live TV news interview this week and he equipped himself very well in dealing with the continually interruptions from the interviewer who continually mentioned how the BNP don't let blacks into their party rather un-constructively.
In all the years of watching Question Time I have never seen such a one sided panel and hostile audience and so many quotes being mentioned about one particular guest. You might as well have had Ali G on the panel asking Griffin 'Is it cos I'm black?'
So this is the democracy we live in these days? Freedom of speech except if you are in the BNP? Decent people now wondering if indeed the BNP have been right about a few things?
Straw couldn't answer a single direct question put to him and all he did was waffle on.
Did you learn anything about the main political parties policies? Naw.
The main political parties need to come up with a far more intelligent way of dealing with the BNP and Griffin because the whole racist, holocaust denying, not letting blacks in their party doesn't seem to be having much affect any more. The loony left are being shown up as just being as extremist and violent on many occasions too. |
george galloway is a shameful parody of himself.as for his perfomance in front of the senate? garrbage, he waffled on and rarely, if at all, answered a direct question, he is a baffoon. the polar opposite of griifin but just as hate filled and dangerous. again highlighting left and right wing extreme and bigotted ideaology.
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Dave Coull
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| landg wrote: | | he waffled on and rarely, if at all, answered a direct question |
Or, to put it another way, as a professional politician, Galloway ran rings round the Senators. But I'm no fan of George, so the question of what you think of him is kinda beside the point. The point is how Nick Griffin's pathetic performance will have played with certain members of his own party. Many people will have felt sorry for him, including members of his own party. But there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a Strong Leader......."
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Fidget
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | landg wrote: | | he waffled on and rarely, if at all, answered a direct question |
Or, to put it another way, as a professional politician, Galloway ran rings round the Senators. But I'm no fan of George, so the question of what you think of him is kinda beside the point. The point is how Nick Griffin's pathetic performance will have played with certain members of his own party. Many people will have felt sorry for him, including members of his own party. But there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a Strong Leader......." |
I think you're wrong. The party faithful will focus on the rounding of him, and quite rightly so.
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Dave Coull
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I wrote | Quote: | | there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a Strong Leader......." |
| Fidget wrote: | | I think you're wrong. |
Griffin's grandfather was involved in the British Union of Fascists, the only British organisation to openly use the term "fascist". Griffin's BNP fellow MEP Andrew Brons was a member of the National Socialist Movement, which celebrated Hitler's birthday and openly modeled itself on the German Nazis. Nick Griffin was the National Organiser of the National Front, then he was prominent in the International Third Position faction, then he joined the BNP, and just four years after he joined the BNP he staged a coup against its then Leader. One thing that all of these various different Far Right groupings have in common is that they all believe in the need for having a Strong Leader. Some of them may be beginning to wonder of this Home Counties boarding school and Cambridge toff fits the bill. But there is no way to prove this, one way or the other. Only time will tell.
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Dave Coull
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| Fidget wrote: | | That's what I thought. |
How somebody who is not a politician would cope is completely irrelevant. Nick Griffin is a professional politician, he very much wanted to be on Question Time, and he is the Leader of a Far Right political party, the kind of political party which, more than any other kind, demands "strong leadership". So, while there will have been sympathy for the "poor man", there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a STRONG Leader......." and wondering if this Home Counties boarding school and Cambridge boy fits the bill.
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Fidget
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Fidget wrote: | | That's what I thought. |
How somebody who is not a politician would cope is completely irrelevant. Nick Griffin is a professional politician, he very much wanted to be on Question Time, and he is the Leader of a Far Right political party, the kind of political party which, more than any other kind, demands "strong leadership". So, while there will have been sympathy for the "poor man", there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a STRONG Leader......." and wondering if this Home Counties boarding school and Cambridge boy fits the bill. |
Show me these instancies where griffin's competency as leader of the bnp is being undermined by his supporters. Just one example will suffice.
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Red Justice
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | landg wrote: | | he waffled on and rarely, if at all, answered a direct question |
Or, to put it another way, as a professional politician, Galloway ran rings round the Senators. But I'm no fan of George, so the question of what you think of him is kinda beside the point. The point is how Nick Griffin's pathetic performance will have played with certain members of his own party. Many people will have felt sorry for him, including members of his own party. But there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a Strong Leader......." |
George Galloway said on his radio programme that protestors outside the BBC would not allowed him to share a platform with Griffin. But in terms of debating skills George would run rings arount the fascist and may do in future. As George said the Left may have to look at their strategy again after Griffin's appearance on Question Time. As he said "the horse has bolted the stable" now.
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Fidget
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| Red Justice wrote: |
George Galloway said on his radio programme that protestors outside the BBC would not allowed him to share a platform with Griffin. But in terms of debating skills George would run rings arount the fascist and may do in future. As George said the Left may have to look at their strategy again after Griffin's appearance on Question Time. As he said "the horse has bolted the stable" now. |
Great, innit, what whom [insert name here] would've said.
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Dave Coull
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I wrote | Quote: | | Nick Griffin is a professional politician, he very much wanted to be on Question Time, and he is the Leader of a Far Right political party, the kind of political party which, more than any other kind, demands "strong leadership". So, while there will have been sympathy for the "poor man", there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a STRONG Leader......." and wondering if this Home Counties boarding school and Cambridge boy fits the bill. |
| Fidget wrote: | | Show me these instances where griffin's competency as leader of the bnp is being undermined |
I never mentioned "instances". I was arguing that common sense and historical experience make it likely there will be some BNP members who are less than impressed. I wouldn't expect to find "instances". It is in the nature of extremely authoritarian organisations that any criticism of the leadership tends to be muted - until the coup happens. Nick Griffin is well aware of that, having been involved in coups against the then Leadership in both the National Front and the BNP. Of course he is looking over his shoulder.
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Fidget
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | I never mentioned "instances". I was arguing that common sense and historical experience make it likely there will be some BNP members who are less than impressed. |
If you really think that, then all I can return is:
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Red Justice
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| Fidget wrote: | | Red Justice wrote: |
George Galloway said on his radio programme that protestors outside the BBC would not allowed him to share a platform with Griffin. But in terms of debating skills George would run rings arount the fascist and may do in future. As George said the Left may have to look at their strategy again after Griffin's appearance on Question Time. As he said "the horse has bolted the stable" now. |
Great, innit, what whom [insert name here] would've said. |
Sorry don't understand your post Fidget. I RJ said that George could run rings around the BNP leader. Like or loathe Galloway he can hold his own in a debate.
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Dave Coull
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| I wrote: | | Nick Griffin is a professional politician, he very much wanted to be on Question Time, and he is the Leader of a Far Right political party, the kind of political party which, more than any other kind, demands "strong leadership". So, while there will have been sympathy for the "poor man", there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a STRONG Leader......." and wondering if this Home Counties boarding school and Cambridge boy fits the bill. |
| Fidget wrote: | | Show me these instances |
| I wrote: | | I wouldn't expect to find "instances". It is in the nature of authoritarian Far Right organisations that any criticism of the leadership tends to be muted - until the coup happens. |
| Fidget wrote: | | If you really think that, then all I can return is: |
Are you claiming that you are a member of the BNP, and, as such, you know better? But even if you were, all that would prove is that you are one of the ones who doesn't think the Leader was made to look a bit pathetic. In an authoritarian organisation, the ones who think differently probably wouldn't be saying so to you. There is no way that either you or I can conclusively prove this one way or the other. Only time will tell.
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Red Justice
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Fidget should say whether he/she is a member of the BNP. I am a member of Solidarity Scotland's Socialist Movement and have demonstrated against the BNP being present in Dundee. Then got hounded on the Internet by BNP Scotland supporters.
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Fidget
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| Red Justice wrote: | | Fidget should say whether he/she is a member of the BNP. I am a member of Solidarity Scotland's Socialist Movement and have demonstrated against the BNP being present in Dundee. Then got hounded on the Internet by BNP Scotland supporters. |
Fidget isn't a member of, nor subscribes to, any political party. Think.
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calum
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| Fidget wrote: | | Dave Coull wrote: | | Fidget wrote: | | That's what I thought. |
How somebody who is not a politician would cope is completely irrelevant. Nick Griffin is a professional politician, he very much wanted to be on Question Time, and he is the Leader of a Far Right political party, the kind of political party which, more than any other kind, demands "strong leadership". So, while there will have been sympathy for the "poor man", there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a STRONG Leader......." and wondering if this Home Counties boarding school and Cambridge boy fits the bill. |
Show me these instancies where griffin's competency as leader of the bnp is being undermined by his supporters. Just one example will suffice. |
Mark Collet's ridiculous antics on Russel Brand's 'Nazi Boy'. You Tube it. MC is a total t**t. John Tyndall, the BNP founder, also had numerous issues with Griffin.
Can't believe the hangups of Fascist Home County toffs are making so many headlines.
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Ultra
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| Dave Coull wrote: | I wrote | Quote: | | Nick Griffin is a professional politician, he very much wanted to be on Question Time, and he is the Leader of a Far Right political party, the kind of political party which, more than any other kind, demands "strong leadership". So, while there will have been sympathy for the "poor man", there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a STRONG Leader......." and wondering if this Home Counties boarding school and Cambridge boy fits the bill. |
| Fidget wrote: | | Show me these instances where griffin's competency as leader of the bnp is being undermined |
I never mentioned "instances". I was arguing that common sense and historical experience make it likely there will be some BNP members who are less than impressed. I wouldn't expect to find "instances". It is in the nature of extremely authoritarian organisations that any criticism of the leadership tends to be muted - until the coup happens. Nick Griffin is well aware of that, having been involved in coups against the then Leadership in both the National Front and the BNP. Of course he is looking over his shoulder. |
Dave the extreme far right do not like Griffin or the BNP as they see them as 'selling out'. They have done for years.
Several coups, programmes about the BNP on Sky, and the membership lists being leaked have made no difference to Griffin's position as leader of the BNP. Yes, there were BNP members who were less than impressed with Griffin. They are no longer members of the BNP.
The difference this time is looking at newspaper and the BBC forums alot of people have sympathy with Griffin and are commenting on him being bullied on Question Time. So far from being seen as a weak leader, you have more mainstream voters questioning why in a democracy BNP supporters are losing their jobs because they are members of a legitamate political party and why mainstream political parties are neglecting them when they can see BNP candidates canvassing for votes.
Add in to the mix you have far left wing types featuring in Muslim demostrations against various wars or G8 meetings, plus left wing extremists turning violent at various EDL and even on the day of Question Time, it does not look impressive for them either.
It seems the more the media twist what Griffin or the BNP say or try to silence them, the more working class type voters are questioning why this is so and turning to the BNP.
Griffin looks like a middle class school boy and not the type of person you would say was a stereotype racist buffoon.
I am just back from Yorkshire tonight and there was even more people at the BNP stall from Saturday afternoon last week. Anti Nazi League seem to have disappeared though.
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Dave Coull
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| Ultra wrote: | | the more working class type voters are questioning why this is so and turning to the BNP |
You seem very keen to talk up the BNP's prospects. But despite all the hooha about an alleged tremendous boost for them | Quote: | | In a YouGov for the Daily Telegraph, when asked how they would vote in an election tomorrow, the proportion supporting the BNP stood at 3%, up from 2% a month ago. |
A single percentage point could be within the margin of error, and not particularly significant. | Ultra wrote: | | I am just back from Yorkshire tonight and there was even more people at the BNP stall from Saturday afternoon last week. |
You seem to spend a lot of your Saturday afternoons visiting that BNP stall in Yorkshire. | Ultra wrote: | | there were BNP members who were less than impressed with Griffin. They are no longer members of the BNP. |
You seem to know a lot about the internal politics of the BNP. Including that folk have been expelled for not being impressed with the Leader. | Ultra wrote: | | the extreme far right do not like Griffin or the BNP as they see them as 'selling out' |
There are always splits and divisions on the far right. That doesn't alter the fact that the BNP is a far right party. And it doesn't alter the fact that there will be current, not-yet-expelled, members of the BNP who are less than impressed with Nick Griffin's pathetic performance.
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Aventinian
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| Ultra wrote: | | Anti Nazi League seem to have disappeared though. |
Probably all gone home for their reading week.
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Ultra
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | the more working class type voters are questioning why this is so and turning to the BNP |
You seem very keen to talk up the BNP's prospects. But despite all the hooha about an alleged tremendous boost for them | Quote: | | In a YouGov for the Daily Telegraph, when asked how they would vote in an election tomorrow, the proportion supporting the BNP stood at 3%, up from 2% a month ago. |
A single percentage point could be within the margin of error, and not particularly significant. | Ultra wrote: | | I am just back from Yorkshire tonight and there was even more people at the BNP stall from Saturday afternoon last week. |
You seem to spend a lot of your Saturday afternoons visiting that BNP stall in Yorkshire. | Ultra wrote: | | there were BNP members who were less than impressed with Griffin. They are no longer members of the BNP. |
You seem to know a lot about the internal politics of the BNP. Including that folk have been expelled for not being impressed with the Leader. | Ultra wrote: | | the extreme far right do not like Griffin or the BNP as they see them as 'selling out' |
There are always splits and divisions on the far right. That doesn't alter the fact that the BNP is a far right party. And it doesn't alter the fact that there will be current, not-yet-expelled, members of the BNP who are less than impressed with Nick Griffin's pathetic performance. |
So because I know a bit about the BNP it makes me a member of the party?
Griffin and the BNP are a bunch of racists buffoons.
But ignoring the problem and hoping it will some how disappear isn't going to happen.
Actually, there is not much point discussing politics with someone like you because you know or so you think. So in 97 the BNP had no councillors and no MEP's. How many do they have in 2009 Dave?
The point of the BNP stalls in Yorkshire is to highlight that they are indeed on the rise as the stall gets more people each time I pass by it. Some of us on here do get to leave Scotland behind once in a while and notice what goes on in the big wide world.
I also speak to locals who tell me why they would vote BNP and try and show them the error of their ways by dispelling some of the myths and impossibilities around BNP policies.
Pretty hard when these voters feel totrally ignored by mainstream parties.
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Dave Coull
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| Ultra wrote: | | Some of us on here do get to leave Scotland behind once in a while |
If you're implying I don't, you're wrong. I visited Barcelona for my daughter's wedding (she worked in Catalonia for about a year and got married there) and I also visited Prague, where my grandson was born (his mum was working in the Czech Republic by then). Last year my wife and I spent a holiday in England, visiting old friends. Also, both last year and this year I've visited the USA. | Ultra wrote: | | ignoring the problem |
I've never been in favour of ignoring the BNP. Because I called them what they are in a signed letter to a Scottish daily paper, I received threatening phone calls from BNP members. A friend of mine had her parked car set on fire by a BNP supporter, and she then received a phone message telling her that, next time, she would be in it.
It's not a question of "ignoring the problem". It's a question of having a realistic assessment of the problem. Dismissing it would certainly be a mistake - but so would exaggerating the strength of the BNP. One of the things that fascists rely on is people having an exaggerated idea of their strength. In 1943, in Berlin, a group of German women who were married to Jewish husbands, together with their children and some supporters, organised demonstrations in the Rosenstrasse protesting against the internment of their husbands. That's right, in Berlin, in 1943. In the middle of the Second World War, with Nazi armies all over Europe and the "Final Solution" well under way. The incredible thing is, they actually succeeded in getting their husbands released. Thirty five Jewish men who were already in Auschwitz concentration camp were told to get on a train to take them home to Berlin. Because the Nazi authorities were worried about the political cost of violently suppressing these demonstrations by Aryan women in Berlin. Why did these women succeed? Because they refused to believe they were dealing with an unstoppable force, and because the authorities were worried that suppressing the protests might just make them spread, and make other folk, with other grievances, get involved. Maybe, if more people had refused to believe they were dealing with an unstoppable force, at an earlier stage, the Second World War could have been stopped before it even started.
No, I don't believe in "ignoring the problem". But I don't believe in appeasement, either.
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Ultra
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | Some of us on here do get to leave Scotland behind once in a while |
If you're implying I don't, you're wrong. I visited Barcelona for my daughter's wedding (she worked in Catalonia for about a year and got married there) and I also visited Prague, where my grandson was born (his mum was working in the Czech Republic by then). Last year my wife and I spent a holiday in England, visiting old friends. Also, both last year and this year I've visited the USA. | Ultra wrote: | | ignoring the problem |
I've never been in favour of ignoring the BNP. Because I called them what they are in a signed letter to a Scottish daily paper, I received threatening phone calls from BNP members. A friend of mine had her parked car set on fire by a BNP supporter, and she then received a phone message telling her that, next time, she would be in it.
It's not a question of "ignoring the problem". It's a question of having a realistic assessment of the problem. Dismissing it would certainly be a mistake - but so would exaggerating the strength of the BNP. One of the things that fascists rely on is people having an exaggerated idea of their strength. In 1943, in Berlin, a group of German women who were married to Jewish husbands, together with their children and some supporters, organised demonstrations in the Rosenstrasse protesting against the internment of their husbands. That's right, in Berlin, in 1943. In the middle of the Second World War, with Nazi armies all over Europe and the "Final Solution" well under way. The incredible thing is, they actually succeeded in getting their husbands released. Thirty five Jewish men who were already in Auschwitz concentration camp were told to get on a train to take them home to Berlin. Because the Nazi authorities were worried about the political cost of violently suppressing these demonstrations by Aryan women in Berlin. Why did these women succeed? Because they refused to believe they were dealing with an unstoppable force, and because the authorities were worried that suppressing the protests might just make them spread, and make other folk, with other grievances, get involved. Maybe, if more people had refused to believe they were dealing with an unstoppable force, at an earlier stage, the Second World War could have been stopped before it even started.
No, I don't believe in "ignoring the problem". But I don't believe in appeasement, either. |
Dave there isn't really any point discussing this with you. I have read your opinion. No need to continually repeat it and dissect everyone elses comments by continually quoting, cutting, and pasting.
People on here are quite capable of reading a comment and understanding the context without it being quoted and dissected several times and repeated again in a thread.
Everyone else on here seems to read a comment and then state their own opinion. You seem to like cutting and pasting quotes and then entering into a historical rant.
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Dave Coull
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| Ultra wrote: | | historical rant |
The dictionary defines a "rant" as speaking or shouting in a wild, impassioned way. I am neither speaking nor shouting, just typing, quite slowly, in carefully constructed sentences. If you think that "wild", you're entitled to your opinion. As for "historical", yes, history has been a life-long interest of mine, and I do think there can sometimes be things to be learned from history. For instance, the Rosenstrasse demonstrations by women and children in Berlin in 1943, against the deportation of some Jews to Auschwitz, show that it is always worth asking how real the strength of the strong actually is. | Ultra wrote: | | Everyone else on here seems to read a comment and then state their own opinion. You seem to like cutting and pasting quotes |
People have their own different styles in writing. My style, at least where the internet is concerned, is to quote only the parts on which I want to comment, not all the rest. I think this focused approach makes sense. And if it should happen to be, as you claim, a different style from "everyone else" - so what? | Ultra wrote: | | No need to continually repeat |
So why don't you take your own advice? You often repeat yourself. As for me, if I repeat something, it's because I thought it an important point in the first place, and one which has not been addressed by other posters. An example of this is the definition of fascism put forward by Rinty, and my own comments on that.
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Holebender
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Quote: | | In a YouGov for the Daily Telegraph, when asked how they would vote in an election tomorrow, the proportion supporting the BNP stood at 3%, up from 2% a month ago. |
A single percentage point could be within the margin of error, and not particularly significant. |
Dave Coull quoting an opinion poll... well I never!
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calum
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I wonder if Anti Fascist Action are still about. They used to forceably remove BNP and other fascists from the streets.
I agree that it would be wrong to talk up their support, but the more support they do get, the more 'hangers on' they get who think it's cool to join in and harass a few 'P***s' or 'queers'. At least, when the likes of AFA and others were active, it kept the hangers-on down to a minimum. They were less likely to bash one of their enemies if they thought there might be opposition.
The recent disquiet amongst BNPers at Griffin's pathetic perfomance on QT and the statement by yon knucklehead in Glasgow shows that the 'old' violent and racist BNP is still very much there.
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