| Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites. |
| parkhead_rfb |
bobby sands tribute videoas it is the 25th anniversary of the hunger strikes I will hope people will watch this and bear in mind the conditions these men suffered.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXdaEihEyUc |
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| papalazarou |
self imposed comditions, no-one made them.
what has this got to do with an independent scotland. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
that last comment is a disgrace. This is posted in the ireland section so its very appropriate.
and finally they suffered these conditions so that the irish struggle for freedom would not be criminalised. they were political prisoners and fought for the right to be recognised as such. |
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| papalazarou |
oh dear. | ||||
| SLG |
As Parkhead has said, this is a section for UK and Irish politics, so it is entirely appropriate that it is posted here. |
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| Neil |
Which doesn't alter the fact that Sands suffering was self imposed, that he was a criminal (part of a conspiracy of mass murder) & that he does not deserve 1% as much sympathy as the innocent victims.
The IRA achieved nothing apart from blood. If a union ever comes it will be because both communities think that with the Irish economy now being more successful than the UK's they would be better off. The tribal hatreds they exacerbated merely make that less likely. |
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| Blackadder |
Anyone who kills another, resigns from the human race in that instant. Sands didn't get half of what he deserved.
My ancestor would have sent him to Mr Ploppy! |
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| parkhead_rfb |
bobby sands was never convicted of murder. he was convicted of possession of a firearm and attempted robbery. i take it you also take the same stance with all other soldiers in the world? if you do then at least your stance will be consistent. |
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| Shadowman |
Only possession of a firearm and attempted robbery? If this is what the Irish nationalist community considers a hero, it's a wonder British governments (of either colour) will stoop low enough to negotiate with them. The people of Northern Ireland have an opportunity to show whether they want to stay British at every general and assembly election. Perhaps you can point out when nationalist parties picked up more votes than the unionists? |
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| parkhead_rfb |
bobby sands was actually elected mp for fermanagh/south tyrone. other hunger strikers were also elected td's in the south.
the reason the six counties havent returned a nationalist vote is due to the fact that it is a state created to ensure a unionist veto. had 'ulster' been created using the historical nine counties this would not have suited unionists. upon the death of bobby sands it should also be noted that the usual condolences were not issed to his family on behalf of the parliament. it seems that british democracy does not count if you dare to disagree with their rules. |
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| Neil |
You are quite right that the boundaries were created to give a unionist majority. This is not in itself a bad thing. When any state is divided on ethnic lines it will, by definition try to give each ethnicity as large a majority as possible in its area. The problem with Ulster (or Northern ireland if you prefer) was that the unionists kept areas like South Armagh which had a catholic majority (also a large section of working class Belfast was Catholic but since the surrounding countryside was unionist such anomalies are inevitable). Had the catholics been a small enough group not to threaten unionism politics there would have developed normally (or at least as normally as in Scotland).
However we all have perfect hindsight & the IRA were never seeking a repartition but merely a different gerrymandering of boundaries in their favour, as you comment makes clear. It would have been completely hypocritical for Parliament to have offered "condolences" to Sands & even more hypocritical of the IRA to suggest it considering how much blood they cheerfully shed. When Mosley was interned during WW2 Parliament did not offer condolences to him for this, nor should they have. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
i would say the basis of the ira campaign post 69 was civil rights. it was out of this campaign and the violent reaction of the unionist state to it that led to the rise of the provisional ira and the belief that the only way forward for ireland was unification.
had the unionist state not been such a discriminatory one then it is very realistic that partition could eventually have been accepted. the proof of this is that until 69 the border ira border campaign in between had been very small. I also wonder what those who question the ira's armed campaign would have done when faced with loyalists with cudgels with nails driven through them when all you were asking for was civil rights. of course the police stood on and watched/actively encouraged these actions. |
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| Morph |
In what way civil roghts Parkhead,i am not an expert on this front so dont know that much about it | ||||
| Congal |
Bobby Sands had a choice........his cohorts[and maybe him] never gave their poor victims that choice, many of them suffering terrible torture before being put out of their misery. Maybe if some of those who seek to glorify the murderers of the ira,got the same treatment they might think again,just what these people went through. Put yourself in these people shoes and if you still seek to glorify the ira,then there's not an drop of the milk of human kindness in your make-up. I wouldn't wish that torture on anyone......not even you. And it says a lot about those people who voted for ira/sinn fein. It speaks volumes. The historical English nine counties I think you are referring to. So I take it then if 'the sectarian head count' which irish nationalist/republicans love to describe it....will not come into force if the 'sectarian head count' goes the other way sometime in the future. ira/sin fein being the 'honourable' 'men' which you seem to try and sell them as,will not use the 'sectarian head count' So with the 100,000 RCs who vote for the Union,and sinn-fein not using a 'sectarian head count'. Things are looking fine for those of a loyalist disposition. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
catholics in the six counties were widely discriminated against in terms of housing, employment and were politically sidelined. in some councils boundaries were specifically drawn to ensure a unionist majority. As well as this from partition to the suspension of the six county parliament the nationalist party only managed to get one act through government, the wild birds act. when a civil rights campaign began it was met by violence from both unionists and the state. scenes of the ruc openly attacking civil rights campaigners shocked the world. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
congal i notice you ignored my questions in the brouc thread, any particular reason? | ||||