Luke P
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Border ControlsSupposing Scotland does get out of the union. It is suddenly responsible for its own borders (border).
The UK is the only EU country to actually enforce migration checks.
Will Scotland maintain this at the English border? Would the English? Would it just be a happy EU free for all?
Would a national ID card suddenly become necessary? Not everyone has passports. Who can say who is Scottish and who is English?
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Dave Coull
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Re: Border Controls | Luke P wrote: | | Would a national ID card suddenly become necessary? |
Maybe somebody with direct experience could answer another couple of question for me. Do people have to show ID cards when going from Donegal to Derry? Do they have to show ID cards when going from Belfast to Dublin? | Luke P wrote: | | Who can say who is Scottish and who is English? |
While of course it's not possible to predict what all future governments will do, I don't think a Scottish government would be likely to seek to impose strict controls at the border with England. The English government might. That would be up to them.
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babykitten
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Re: Border Controls | Luke P wrote: | Would it just be a happy EU free for all?
Would a national ID card suddenly become necessary? Not everyone has passports. Who can say who is Scottish and who is English? |
More scare-mongering from Luke P, the implication being that Scotland would endanger England by letting anyone in.
As Dave Coull points out, there is a very lightly 'defended' border with the Republic of Ireland at the moment. To suggest that somehow having an independent Scotland would endanger England (and therefore result in draconian border controls being imposed for Scots going to England) is typical unionist scaremongering.
For a start, immigrants mostly seem to come across from France and they don't head up the coast for Scotland!
"Would a national ID card suddenly become necessary?". Why on earth would it just because of an independent Scotland?
"Who can say who is Scottish and who is English?". Does it even matter? For the record, the SNP's policy is that anyone who is ordinarily resident in Scotland at the time of independence is entitled to Scottish citizinship. Likewise, anyone ordinarily resident in Scotland at the moment would be entitled to vote in a referendum on the matter (provided they are on the electoral roll, obviously). You know, the very same rules that define if you are a UK citizen at the moment, or a French citizen, or indeed a citizen of countless other countries around the world.
Let's remember that fortress America has a massive, massive effectively unpoliced border with Canada. That doesn't seem to be a problem. But unionists here scaremonger with tales of border controls and not being able to see your granny on the other side, and some sort of India partioning-type disaster to befall these islands.
It's all complete and utter nonsense.
Look at the precedents around the world. And also look at the precedent within the UK itself with respect to the Republic of Ireland. The UK has already experienced a part of it leaving. Scotland leaving should be no different, apart from there being no prospect of sectarian violence and no prospect of disputed claims over territory.
What standard unionist scaremongering argument will Luke P come up with next? Let me guess, something to do with Scotland not being able to afford to go it alone?
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Holebender
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Re: Border Controls | babykitten wrote: | | Let me guess, something to do with Scotland not being able to afford to go it alone? |
Well of course! After all, the UK is debt free... err... oops. OK, never mind.
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Dave Coull
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Re: Border Controls | babykitten wrote: | | Let's remember that fortress America has a massive, massive effectively unpoliced border with Canada. |
That's a very good point. The USA and Canada are two neighbouring countries with something of a shared history (they were both British at one time) which apparently manage somehow to accept that they have distinct governments without getting too uptight about this. | babykitten wrote: | | look at the precedent within the UK itself with respect to the Republic of Ireland. The UK has already experienced a part of it leaving. Scotland leaving should be no different |
I wouldn't go as far as to say it will be no different............. | babykitten wrote: | | apart from there being no prospect of sectarian violence and no prospect of disputed claims over territory. |
Ah, well, yes, apart from those very, VERY big differences, it will be no different.............if it's possible to avoid erecting walls and electrified fences at the Irish border, despite everything that has happened, then there's no case for heavy restrictions on the border between independent Scotland and England.
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Stevie
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Technology exists to make sure lorries don't import goods without paying the relevant duties and it's done in seconds.
Passports at the border? Well, an identity card would suffice.
In the end it will be what can be worked reasonably efficiently.
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The Lithgae Jambo
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Re: Border Controls | Luke P wrote: | Supposing Scotland does get out of the union. It is suddenly responsible for its own borders (border).
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Borders.
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Fidget
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Re: Border Controls | babykitten wrote: | | Luke P wrote: | Would it just be a happy EU free for all?
Would a national ID card suddenly become necessary? Not everyone has passports. Who can say who is Scottish and who is English? |
More scare-mongering from Luke P, the implication being that Scotland would endanger England by letting anyone in.
As Dave Coull points out, there is a very lightly 'defended' border with the Republic of Ireland at the moment. To suggest that somehow having an independent Scotland would endanger England (and therefore result in draconian border controls being imposed for Scots going to England) is typical unionist scaremongering. |
I wouldn't say that was scaremongering, it's just forward thinking. Rhyme me off the top three contenders for the first offiicial Scottish Goverment.  You can't, can you? Bleat on about independence... yet precious little thought to any eventuality.
And.. I think you'll also find that the UK's border policy with R.O.I isn't representative with borders across the world.
An independent Scotland WOULD compomise the Border with England btw. You're obviously just too nationalistic to see that.
Who's Dave Coull btw? You shaggin him?
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Stevie
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If you have your own country you can set up any border control you like.
Tough if you are inconvenienced for 20 minutes or so when crossing over into another country.
Big deal about nothing.
Another Brit red herring.
Aned incidentally, the great majority of people don't cross the border very often during a working day.
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Dave Coull
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Fidget asked "babykitten" | Quote: | | Who's Dave Coull btw? You shaggin him? |
Fidget asked me | Quote: | | Do you have a lisp |
| Fidget wrote: | | Quite the opposite of maturity |
Yes, the way that Fidget avoids discussing the real issues, and descends to personal innuendos, is quite the opposite of maturity.
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Stevie
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Fidget appears to be missing his widget.
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Fidget
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Fidget appears to getting stalked. 
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Fidget
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| Bravehand wrote: | | If you have your own country you can set up any border control you like. |
Eh? What are you talking about?
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Dave Coull
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Fidget asked "babykitten"
| Quote: | | Who's Dave Coull btw? You shaggin him? |
But now Fidget says
| Quote: | | I wasn't even talking to you |
No, you were talking ABOUT me.
This is a public forum. It doesn't matter who you were talking to. Anybody can comment on anything anybody says. And yes, it's true the way Fidget avoids discussing the real issues by descending to personal innuendos is the opposite of maturity.
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Stevie
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| Fidget wrote: | | Bravehand wrote: | | If you have your own country you can set up any border control you like. |
Eh? What are you talking about? |
Fidget has still to locate his widget.
I thought the sentence was self evident conditional statement employing the possessive to demonstrate the possible within the stated condition.
Now that sentence could provoke questions...
Long may your widget fidget my fidgetting friend.
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Shagpile
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Re: Border Controls | Luke P wrote: | | Supposing Scotland does get out of the union. It is suddenly responsible for its own borders (border). |
Yes.
| Quote: | | The UK is the only EU country to actually enforce migration checks. |
Not true. The fact that you would post something as blatantly innacurate as that illustrates that you really don't have a clue.
| Quote: | | Will Scotland maintain this at the English border? Would the English? Would it just be a happy EU free for all? |
What do they do between the ROI and NI?
| Quote: | | Would a national ID card suddenly become necessary? Not everyone has passports. Who can say who is Scottish and who is English? |
Necessary or not Westminster want to have us all 'chipped' at birth. However The Scottish Parliament has resisted calls for ID cards. Calls; it seem have fallen on Westminsters 'deaf ears'.
Where have you been?
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Shagpile
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| Bravehand wrote: | Technology exists to make sure lorries don't import goods without paying the relevant duties and it's done in seconds.
Passports at the border? Well, an identity card would suffice.
In the end it will be what can be worked reasonably efficiently. |
Bravehand, as you live in France, perhaps you are better placed to explain how migration checks are indeed carried out at Airports, and indeed at the workplace.
A couple of years back I was working in Belgium. Two of my Dutch colleagues were arrested by immigration.
Not content with the fact that they were Dutch nationals, not content with the fact they were EU citizens. My colleagues had to demonstrate they were not being paid exploitation wages and were not being paid less than their Belgian counterparts.
Would you also enlighten us as to how all these 'illeagal' immigrants end up at Songat?
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Shagpile
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| Bravehand wrote: | | Technology exists to make sure lorries don't import goods without paying the relevant duties and it's done in seconds. |
As they already have on Germany's Auotobahn network.
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Stevie
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You show your identity card and that's it.
However, it should be noted that you go through a system to get an ID card.
Passports are not that difficult to forge but an ID card could be logged in a system and accessed in seconds.
It does piss me off having to carry an ID card but I don't make the rules and the French don't seem to mind at all.
At the workplace, it's the same thing, you need an ID card to get a social security number so no getting around it really.
As far as proving you earn the same amount, the French don't care but you still need an ID card.
I got my ID card using my passport and the offer of work.
Now, being white, married to a French woman and having kids here, I can no doubt get French citizenship... being a republican by nature this is appealing.
My point is, how often does the average person go to England. A quick check of a passport, or a visit visa or their ID card would do, it's hardly Earth shattering East block fascism. If you go to any country, you show your passport.
The advantage for an ID card also is that Scotland wouldn't be invaded by an army of English university students without the government's consent; actually there is a great big list of advantages if you really think about it.
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Morph
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Most lorries and such are tracked using Sat-nav type systems anyway, so tax wouldn't be an issue.
Scotalnd and England would also have free trade when Scotland joined up with the EU (another arguement for another time)
If not countries like Norway and Sweden do fine with free trade agreements between them surely Scotland and England could work something out.
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Luke P
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Re: Border Controls | Shagpile wrote: | | Luke P wrote: | | Supposing Scotland does get out of the union. It is suddenly responsible for its own borders (border). |
Yes.
| Quote: | | The UK is the only EU country to actually enforce migration checks. |
Not true. The fact that you would post something as blatantly innacurate as that illustrates that you really don't have a clue.
| Quote: | | Will Scotland maintain this at the English border? Would the English? Would it just be a happy EU free for all? |
What do they do between the ROI and NI?
| Quote: | | Would a national ID card suddenly become necessary? Not everyone has passports. Who can say who is Scottish and who is English? |
Necessary or not Westminster want to have us all 'chipped' at birth. However The Scottish Parliament has resisted calls for ID cards. Calls; it seem have fallen on Westminsters 'deaf ears'.
Where have you been? |
This was not intended to be scaremongering, but batten down the hatches - here I come again...
As far as I know there is no other EU country that enforces passport checks on its borders. If you know of another please enlighten rather than dismiss.
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Holebender
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Only those countries which are members of the Schengen agreement area have no internal border controls. However, all EU member states have strict controls at their external borders. You need to get in to the Schengen area first before you can enjoy the open borders between member states.
Schengen in implemented by all EU member states except the UK, Ireland, Bulgaria, Cyprus, and Romania. In addition, there are three non-EU member states within the Schengen area (Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland).
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Luke P
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Thank you. I did of course mean border controls within the EU. External controls are a given.
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Dave Coull
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| Morph wrote: | | countries like Norway and Sweden do fine with free trade agreements between them surely Scotland and England could work something out. |
Sweden is a member of the EU, Norway isn't. Yet they seem to manage to be good neighbours without much restriction on movement between one and the other. So, in or out of the EU, why do some unionists feel the need to pretend that an independent Scotland would mean there would have to be machine guns in watch-towers along the border between Scotland and England?
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Luke P
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Did someone say machine guns in watch towers???
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calum
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I don't think they're necessary in today's Europe. The other week i travelled from Zittau into Poland and then the Czech Republic in a matter of 5 minutes through previously strict border controls that were in force until 2 or 3 years ago.
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babykitten
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Re: Border Controls | Fidget wrote: |
Who's Dave Coull btw? You shaggin him? |
This moronic comment scarcely deserves a response, but suffice to say, it demonstrates the level of thinking that has gone into Fidget's 'argument'. Clearly he/she is not in the slightest bit interested in mature debate, but it simply s**t-stirring.
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