| Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites. |
| Gung-ho |
Most of the Celtic and Rangers fans will at one time or another have engaged in bating each other with sectarian songs/chants. The fact that Celtic Fans feel the need to glorify terrorist organistions which have murdered young Scots and others I find very offensive. On the other side the need by their counterparts from Rangers to glorify yet more of these terrorist groups who murder people because of their religon I find equally offensive. It's time that the Bigot Bros and their supporters either grew up or B*gger off to England, Northern Ireland or Eire and take their stadiums and supporters with them. F**K the Queen, Orange B**tards, F**K the Pope and similer chants and songs have no place in Scottish sport. | ||||||||
| parkhead_rfb |
i find scottish soldiers murdering people in ireland offensive. I am sure the people of iraq are similarly offended by their actions. you dont have the monopoly on being offended i am afraid and i find your feelings on british army terrorists offensive. |
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| Gung-ho |
In which part of my post did I mention the British Army and I find your support for Drug dealing criminals who blow up school children really offensive. Tell you what Parkhead go tell the family of any of those killed by the IRA, Taliban or Insurgents in Iraq they are they the victims were the real terrorists and I will donate a couple of pints of blood for your surgery |
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| Congal |
British Army terrorists? Would that include Highland Fusiliers....Dougald Mc Caughey,Joseph Mc Caig and John Mc Caig. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
if you woud like to present your evidence that the ira are involved in drug dealing i will be glad to see it. now thats evidence not ah well the sun says it....i want convictions and actual proof. the pira and inla have been responsible for attacks on drug dealers that my friend is an undeniable truth.
also the pira have never directly targeted civillians. they were fighting a guerilla war that the british government caused in their country they were using what limited means they had and sometimes mistakes were made. the ira has apologised for the death of non combatants. its easy to just try and label the ira child killers etc as that takes away any need to deal with the actual issues behind the conflict. what is also undeniable is that the british army have killed children due to their actions, many of these killed in wars in countries where they have no right to tbe in the first place. are they terrorists or does a fancy uniform make it legitimate for them to blow children to bits? lets not also forger the british governments lack of condemnation for israeli attacks on lebanon, you and your ilk seem perfectly able to condone terrorism when the agenda suits. |
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| frank rizzo |
The Brits have always murdered innocents on their way to achieving many dubious matters. However, it is a fact that the organisation named the IRA (of whatever brand) has specifically targeted individuals and places where they knew there would be civilians either injured or killed.
This is why most of us (who support a united Ireland) find the singing of songs that mention the IRA unacceptable. Especially at a game of fitba. Its that simple. |
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| Gung-ho |
Since you really want to go into this. Lets just take incidents in which 5 or more people were killed.
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/use...past/troubles/major_killings.html You will note that the Army is only mentioned three times. And no children are listed as casualites in any of those three incidents. Or perhaps this list will help you Considering that the Province of Northern Ireland was ravaged by conflict for over 30 years, it would be simply impossible to include every single event that took place during that time. Listed are the most important incidents of The Troubles and subsequent peace process. January 1967: Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association formed. October 1968: Clashes between NICRA and Royal Ulster Constabulary in Derry, during civil rights marches. This is considered by many as the beginning of the Troubles. March / April 1969: Loyalist bombers targeted local amenities, including water and electricity supplies. July 1969: 67 year old Francis McCloskey was killed by an RUC officer. Many consider this as the first death of the Troubles. In the following 30 years, over 3500 people died as a result of the conflict. August 1969: Serious rioting erupted in Bogside, Derry. After two days of continuous battle, British troops were deployed on the streets of Northern Ireland for the first time. October 1969: 29 year old Victor Arbuckle became the first RUC officer to die in the Troubles. December 1969: A split forms in the Irish Republican Army, creating the Official IRA and Provisional IRA. June 1970: Major gun battle between the IRA and Loyalists. Seven people were killed. August 1970: Leading Nationalist party, the Social Democratic Labour Party (SDLP) was formed. February 1971: Gunner Robert Curtis became the first British Soldier to die in the Troubles when he was shot by the IRA. March 1971: Brian Faulkner became the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland. August 1971: Internment introduced in Northern Ireland December 1971: 15 people were killed by a loyalist bomb in a Belfast bar. January 1972: Bloody Sunday - 13 men were shot and killed by the British Army in Derry. February 1972: Funerals of 11 of those killed on Bloody Sunday. Prayer services held across Ireland. In Dublin, over 30,000 marched to the British Embassy, carrying 13 coffins and black flags. They attacked the Embassy with stones and bottles, then petrol bombs. The building was eventually burnt to the ground. Seven people were killed by an IRA bomb at Aldershot barrack, England. It was thought to be in retaliation for Bloody Sunday. Most of those killed were ancillary workers, including a Catholic priest. March 1972: Stormont government ended. Direct rule from Westminster introduced. May 1972: The Official IRA announced a ceasefire. This marked the end of OIRA’s military campaign. The Provisional IRA continued its campaign right up until 1997. July 1972: Bloody Friday - nine people were killed and 130 seriously injured when the IRA exploded 22 bombs in Belfast in the space of 75 minutes. December 1972: Two people were killed and 127 injured by tow IRA car bombs in Dublin, Republic of Ireland. June 1973: Northern Ireland Assembly elections took place. February 1974: Eleven people killed by an IRA bomb planted on a coach carrying British soldiers and their families. May 1974: Beginning of Ulster Workers Council strike. 4 bombs (3 in Dublin, 1 in Monaghan) planted by the Ulster Volunteer Force in the Republic of Ireland. They killed 33 people and an unborn child. The Northern Ireland Assembly collapsed. As a result, direct rule was re-introduced. October 1974: Five people were killed by IRA bombs in pubs in Guildford, Surrey, England. November 1974: 21 people were killed by IRA bombs in pubs in Birmingham, England. December 1974: IRA announced Christmas ceasefire. Prior to ceasefire, they carried out a bomb attack on the home of former Prime Minister Edward Heath. Mr Heath was not in the building at the time. July 1975: Three members of the Miami Showband were shot and killed by the UVF following a concert in Co. Down. October 1975: The UVF killed 12 people in a series of attacks across Northern Ireland. December 1975: End of internment. The Red Hand Commandos, a group associated with the UVF, killed five people in a bomb attack in Dundalk, Co. Louth, Republic of Ireland. January 1976: Ten protestant civilians were killed by the Republican Action Force (believed to be a cover name for the IRA). March 1976: End of special category status for prisoners convicted of terrorist crimes. July 1976: 54 year old Christopher Ewart Biggs, the British Ambassador to Ireland, and his secretary Judith Cook, were killed by a bomb planted in Mr Biggs’ car in Dublin. August 1976: Mairead Corrigan and Betty Williams formed the Peace People, a group of Catholics and Protestants, who joined forces on the streets of Northern Ireland to call for peace. September 1976: Blanket protests began in the Maze prison, in protest at the end of special category status. The term ‘blanket protest’ comes from the fact that the protestors refused to wear prison uniforms, instead wrapping blankets around themselves. October 1977: Mairead Corrigan and Betty Williams received the Nobel Peace Prize. November 1978: 12 people were killed by an IRA bomb at a hotel near Belfast. February 1979: Eleven loyalists known as the ‘Shankhill Butchers’ were sentenced to life in prison for 19 murders. The infamous group got their name from the fact that they tortured and mutilated their victims with butcher’s knives. March 1979: Conservative spokesman on Northern Ireland, Airey Neave was killed by a bomb planted in his car by the Irish National Liberation Army. If he had lived, he would have become Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, when the Conservatives won the UK general election two months later. August 1979: 18 British soldiers were killed by an IRA bomb at Warrenpoint, Co. Down. On the same day, four people, including the Queen’s cousin Lord Louis Mountbatten, were killed by an IRA bomb on board a boat off the coast of Co. Sligo, Republic of Ireland. September 1979: During a visit to the Republic of Ireland, Pope John Paul II appealed for an end to the violence in Northern Ireland. October 1980: Republican prisoners began a hunger strike in protest against the end of special category status. December 1980: Hunger strike called off. March 1981: Prisoners began a second hunger strike. April 1981: Hunger striker Bobby Sands won a by-election to be elected as a MP at Westminster. The law was later changed to prevent prisoners standing in elections. May 1981: After 66 days on hunger strike, 26 year old Bobby Sands MP died in the Maze. Nine further hunger strikers died in the following 3 months. June 1981: Eight IRA prisoners escaped from the Crumlin Road prison, Belfast. September 1981: Northern Ireland’s first religiously integrated secondary school opened. October 1981: Hunger strike ended. July 1982: Eleven British soldiers and seven military horses died in IRA bomb attacks on Hyde Park, London. December 1982: 17 people were killed by an INLA bomb at the Droppin’ Well Bar, Co. Derry. May 1983: New Ireland Forum set up. October 1984: The IRA carried out a bomb attack on the Grand Hotel, Brighton, which was being used as a base for the Conservative Party Conference. Five people, including MP Anthony Berry, were killed. Margaret and Denis Thatcher narrowly escaped injury. December 1984: Ian Thain became the first British soldier to be convicted of murdering a civilian during the troubles. November 1985: Margaret Thatcher and Garret FitzGerald signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement. December 1985: All 15 unionist MPs resigned in protest against the Anglo-Irish agreement. June 1986: Northern Ireland Assembly officially dissolved. May 1987: Eight IRA members killed by the SAS in Loughall, Co. Armagh. November 1987: Eleven people were killed by an IRA bomb during a remembrance day service in Enniskillen, Co. Fermanagh. January 1988: SDLP leader John Hume and Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams held a meeting. Many consider this meeting as the beginning of the Peace Process. March 1988: Three IRA members killed by the SAS in Gibraltar. At the funeral of those killed in Gibraltar, loyalist Michael Stone launched a grenade, killing three. Most of the action was filmed by Television News crews. At the funeral of Michael Brady, killed at the funeral by Michael Stone, two British soldiers in plain clothes were killed after being mistaken for loyalist gunmen. June 1988: Six off-duty British soldiers were killed by an IRA bomb in Lisburn. August 1988: Eight British soldiers were killed by an IRA bomb at Ballygawley, Co. Tyrone. October 1988: The British Government introduced the broadcasting ban. February 1989: Prominent Republican solicitor Pat Finucane was shot and killed by the Ulster Freedom Fighters. September 1989: Eleven military bandsmen were killed by the IRA at Deal Barracks, Kent, England. March 1990: The Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister) Charles Haughey became the first serving Taoiseach to visit Northern Ireland since 1965. July 1990: The IRA bombed the Stock Exchange, London. Conservative MP for Eastbourne, Ian Gow, was killed by an IRA bomb planted in his car. September 1990: Two Catholic teenagers were killed by British soldier in Belfast. November 1990: Margaret Thatcher resigned as British Prime Minister. December 1990: The IRA held its first Christmas ceasefire for 15 years. February 1991: Three mortars were fired into gardens at 10 Downing Street, the official residence of the British Prime Minister. January 1992: Eight people were killed by an IRA bomb at Teebane, Co. Tyrone. Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Peter Brooke was accused by unionists of gross insensitivity, after he was persuaded to sing ‘My Darling Clemintine’ on RTE’s Late Late Show. RUC officer Allen Moore killed three Sinn Fein members in Belfast. He later shot himself. February 1992: The UFF shot and killed five Catholics at a bookmaker’s shop on Ormeau Road. April 1992: Three people were killed by an IRA bomb at Baltic Exchange, London. March 1993: The IRA exploded 2 bombs in Warrington, Cheshire, England, killing 3 year old Jonathan Ball and injuring 56 others. 12 year old Tim Parry died of his injuries five days later. There was widespread protesting in Britain and Ireland following the deaths of the two innocent boys. April 1993: The IRA exploded a large bomb at Bishopsgate, London. It killed one person, injured 30 others, and caused an estimated £350 million in damage. June 1993: President of the Republic of Ireland, Mary Robinson, visited community groups in Belfast. She publicly shook hands with Gerry Adams, provoking criticism amongst unionists. September 1993: The IRA observed a ceasefire to coincide with a visit to Northern Ireland by prominent Irish Americans. October 1993: Ten people were killed by an IRA bomb at a fish shop on Shankhill Road, Belfast. The UFF shot and killed six people at the Rising Sun bar, Greysteel, Co. Derry. One gunman was hear to say ‘trick or treat’ before he fired into the crowded room, a reference to the Halloween party taking place. January 1994: The broadcasting ban lifted in the Republic of Ireland. Bill Clinton granted a ‘limited duration’ visa to Gerry Adams. March 1994: The IRA carried out a mortar attack on Heathrow Airport, London. Further attacks were carried out later in the month, but on each occasion, the mortars failed to explode. June 1994: 29 people, including ten senior RUC officers, died when their helicopter crashed at Mull of Kintyre, Scotland. They were travelling from Belfast to a security conference in Inverness. Six men were shot and killed by the UVF at a bar in Loughinisland, Co. Down. August 1994: The IRA issued a statement which announced a complete cessation of military activities. This ceasefire was broken less than two years later. September 1994: John Major lifted the broadcasting ban in the UK. October 1994: Loyalist groups announced a ceasefire. December 1994: Former US Senator, George Mitchell, was appointed by Bill Clinton as special economic advisor on Ireland. In effect, Mitchell was the ‘peace envoy’ promised by Clinton in 1992. January 1995: A delegation from Sinn Fein met with officials from the Northern Ireland Office. February 1995: The British and Irish governments released the Joint Framework document. March 1995: Gerry Adams attended a reception held by Bill Clinton at the white House. July 1995: Lee Clegg, a paratrooper with the British Army was released from prison on the orders of Secretary of State Patrick Mayhew. Clegg had been jailed in 1993 for the murder of Catholic teenager Karen Reilly. September 1995: David Trimble was elected as the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, following the resignation of James Molyneaux. November 1995: Bill Clinton became the first serving US President to visit Northern Ireland. February 1996: The IRA bombed South Quay, Docklands, London. The bomb killed two people, and brought to an end the ceasefire after 17 months and 9 days. June 1996: Detective Jerry McCabe of Garda Siochana (Irish police force) was killed by the IRA in Co. Limerick, Republic of Ireland. Talks at Stormont began without Sinn Fein. The IRA exploded a bomb in Manchester. It destroyed a large part of the city centre and injured over 200 people. To date, it is the largest bomb to be planted on the British mainland. The devastation was so great, that several buildings were damaged beyond repair, and had to be demolished. It’s estimated that Manchester lost a third of all its retail space in the blast. Re-building took many years. October 1996: 31 people were injured by an IRA bomb at the British Army HQ, Lisburn. 43 year old Warrant Officer James Bradwell died of his injuries four days later in hospital. February 1997: Lance Bombardier Stephen Restorick was shot and killed by the IRA at Bessbrook, Co. Armagh. He was the last British soldier to die in the Troubles. April 1997: The Grand National horse race was cancelled, and Aintree Racecourse evacuated following a hoax bomb warning from the IRA. It was one of a number of events that proved how easily the IRA could disrupt the lives of the British public with minimum effort, and minimum risk to IRA members. May 1997: Labour won the UK general election. Dr. Marjorie ’Mo’ Mowlam was appointed as Scretary of State for Northern Ireland. June 1997: Sinn Fein won its first ever seats in the Dail (Irish Parliament) Two RUC officers were shot and killed by the IRA. July 1997: The IRA renewed its ceasefire. August 1997: There was a debate on BBC’s Newsnight between Sinn Fein and the UUP. This was the first television debate between the two parties. September 1997: Sinn Fein signed the Mitchell Principles. General John de Chastelaine was appointed as the chair of the body to oversee decommissioning. Multi-party talks resumed. December 1997: Billy Wright, the leader of the Loyalist Volunteer Force within the Maze was shot and killed. January 1998: Against the advice of the British government, Mo Mowlam visited UDA and UFF prisoners in the Maze to encourage them to support the peace talks. The Ulster Democratic Party were suspended from talks following UDA and UFF violence. March 1998: Two men were shot and killed by the LVF at Poyntzpass, Co. Armagh. George Mitchell set a deadline of 9th April for the parties to reach an agreement. April 1998: George Mitchell’s 9th April deadline passed, but the talks continued well into the night. Then at 5:35pm, on Good Friday, 10th April, after 30 years of violence, and two years of intensive talks, George Mitchell made the historic announcement: ‘I am happy to announce that the governments, and political parties of Northern Ireland have reached an agreement.’ The agreement, officially called the Belfast Agreement, would become better known as the Good Friday Agreement. May 1998: The people of Ireland, North and South, voted overwhelmingly in favour of the Good Friday Agreement. June 1998: Northern Ireland Assembly elections were held. David Trimble was elected First Minister. Seamus Mallon was elected deputy. August 1998: A dissident republican splinter group, calling itself the Real IRA, exploded a bomb in Omagh, Co. Tyrone. It killed 29 people, making it the worst single bombing of the Troubles, in terms of life lost. December 1998: David Trimble of the UUP and John Hume from the SDLP were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for their efforts to bring peace to Northern Ireland. January 1999: Former IRA member Eamon Collins was found dead near Newry, Co. Down. March 1999: Solicitor Rosemary Nelson, who had represented republicans in several high profile cases, was killed by a booby trap car bomb in Lurgan, Co. Armagh. Loyalist group, Red Hand Defenders, admitted responsibility. July 1999: 22 year old Charles Bennett was shot and killed by the IRA in Belfast. October 1999: Peter Mandelson replaced Mo Mowlam as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. February 2000: Peter Mandelson suspended the Northern Ireland Assembly, citing insufficient progress on decommissioning. March 2000: The Bloody Sunday inquiry began in Derry. May 2000: Devolution was restored. June 2000: A Real IRA bomb caused minor damage to Hammersmith Bridge, London. July 2000: The final prisoners were release from the Maze, under the conditions of the Good Friday Agreement. December 2000: Bill Clinton began a visit to Northern Ireland. January 2001: Dissident republicans launched a mortar attack on a British Army base in Derry. Dr. John Reid replaced Peter Mandelson. March 2001: A Real IRA bomb exploded outside BBC Television Centre, causing some damage to the building. April 2001: A Real IRA bomb exploded at a Post Office depot in North London. June 2001: RUC officers had to protect pupils and parents at Holy Cross Catholic girls’ school in Belfast, following attacks from loyalist protestors. The attacks resumed in September, following the school summer holidays. July 2001: David Trimble resigned as First Minister. Catholic teenager Ciaran Cummings was shot and killed by the UDA in Co. Antrim. The worst rioting for several years took place in Belfast. August 2001: Army bomb disposal teams diffused a bomb in the main car park at Belfast Airport. A Real IRA car bomb injured seven people in Ealing, West London. October 2001: The IRA began decommissioning. November 2001: The RUC was replaced by the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Recruits were recruited on the basis of 50% Catholic, 50% Protestant. David Trimble was re-elected as First Minister. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
your source is a total joke my friend. from the off it doesnt list the very first victim of 'the troubles'. a protestant man killed by the ruc in derrys bogside, all notable sources will tell you this. it also at the start claims to list only killings of five or more yet includes incidents such as the three members of the miami showband killed but then doesnt mention the children killed by the plastic bullets of the ruc.
also care to back up your drug dealing claim? many on here have claimed this and not one single person has ever backed it up with evidence. I will look out a proper list of british army atrocities, one where they arent hidden. |
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| azzuri |
come on guys - wouldn't be more sensible to start a new thread about this in 'UK and Ireland politics' instead of on the football forum? | ||||||||
| parkhead_rfb |
has this clown got a list of ira drug dealers convictions yet? or is it time to admit you cant back up what you said. | ||||||||
| Cheshire Exile |
Sectarianism of any sort loyalist or republican has no place in Scottish society including football. The Scots are in a unique position to do our bit to help ease the tensions in N Ireland due to our closer understanding of the situation there compared to England/Wales etc...
Wrongs have been committed by both sides under the banner of the UJ and tricolour. It is time to move on and forge closer links with our cousins across the sea for our collective good. Lets not forget how the Scots and Irish of all religious persuasions have enriched the culture of the entire world! |
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| parkhead_rfb |
please explain why republicanism, an ideology which from its very outset sought to unite catholic protestant and dissenter is sectarian? because the sun and daily record say so? | ||||||||
| Cymro |
I find this thread odd to say the least.
Parkhead like it or not, the Republican Terrorist Organisations, be them PIRA, RIRA, CIRA, INLA have used illegal activities to fund their Terrorist work. The biggest one was Fuel Smuggling - so successfull that in some part of NI bordering the Republic it forced all legal petrol stations out of business!, but it's almost inevitable that Drugs would have found some part in all of that. The IRA and INLA beating up drug dealers means nothing in this context. It could have been carried out by members of the PIRA and INLA that ARE Anti Drugs. But it could also have been carried out by other drug dealers in a battle over territory. Or as some kind of publicitiy stunt - what better way to get the community back behind you (or atlest accepting of you) then to "protect the communty from the evils of drugs"? Siging FTQ, Pro IRA songs may technically not be Secterian. But they are aimed to have the same effect as singing songs that are Secterian. They are aimed at pissing off the oppostion and forcing them into a response. It's inevitable that in ANY sport fans will try and goad eachother. But the Old Firm take it into a whole new level rarely seen even in derby matches. And it's an unwelcome level in football |
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| Cymro |
Secterianism is Wrong as it promotes hatred. Singing Pro IRA songs is also wrong as the same as Secterianism it's aimed at raising the level of that hatred. | ||||||||
| parkhead_rfb |
so what you are saying then is that this is purely fantasy on your part, you dont actually have any proof? |
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| parkhead_rfb |
personally when i sing republican songs its because i firmly believe in the sentiments being expressed. i know many, many others who feel the same. |
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| Cheshire Exile |
Dear Bloggers, I am sure Parkhead and Frank Rizzo are well aware of this site, but Slugger O'Toole is a good blog for all things N Ireland for those of you who take an interest. There are some interesting view points from over the water on the political situation unfolding on this side of the Irish sea particularly in Scotland but also on what's happening south of Hadrian's wall.
From the Scottish Independence movements point of view, the unionist standpoint in NI/North of Ireland is being brought into question! Do a search on 'Scottish nationalism'. Makes interesting reading. As for your comment Parkhead on Republicanism, I take your point, but to the casual observer who is not up with the finer points in Irish politics that is the perception. As it happens, I am also a republican politically, but of the Scottish variety so our view points may not be that different! The best outcome in my view is an independence referendum 'Yes' in Scotland and a drive for an English Parliament down here. The latter too, is gaining momentum amongst the politically aware. The Welsh, as we see on this site are also restless, the union looks more precarious than ever in my humble opinion. I know my two posts have not been directly football related, but it seemed appropriate to make them here. |
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| Cymro |
For f**k Sakes Parkhead, how patronising do you want to be?
Just because you've never heard of something happening doesn't make it "Pure Fantasy". Is it not possible that you may not know EVERYTHING about this issue? You give Republicanism, and the Campaign for Irish Nationalism a bad name! I am talking here as a passionate Welsh Nationalist. I want to see Wales, and Scotland independent of the British State, and I want to see and United Free Ireland. So, I'm not here to make things up about the IRA, I'm not here to campaign against Irish Repiblicanism, however I'm not stupid or naiive enough to think the PIRA where some holier than though organisation! I don't claim to know nearly everything on the issue of Republicanism in Northern Ireland, however I do know a bit - enough to write a dissertation on the issue (The Role of Republican Paramilitary Organisation in NI on the Peace Process since 1997) for my degree and getting a first in it anyway. Now then, a few years ago the BBC (Peter Taylor) made a series of programmes on NI. Surely I don't need to remind you of these? One of these programmes involved items on how the Paramilitary organisations funded their campaigns. NORAID is probably the most famous of IRA alleged funding programmes. But, illegl ops where also important, if not more important in terms of revenue. The area where Illegal fuel imported with support and knowledge of the Republicanism pushed out the legal operators from what I rememver was the one bordering Eire on the North Eastern tip. I'm sure a quick search on the BBC will help you. Justify signing republican songs all you like - believe it or not I'm known to sing them too, and have known some of the more tame traditional ones for some years - you can thank bands like the Wolfe Tones for that! But singing these songs at an Old Firm match, while not Secterian in the same way singing about knee high in Fenian Blood is Secterian, is aimed at pissing the traditional Loyalist Support of Rangers and draw them into a reaction, just like they do to the Celtic fans. So, Parkhead just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong, lies or fantasy, nor is the poster "a clown" (as you described another poster). You playing in a Republican Band (in Scotland), and singing Irish Republican Songs at football matches (in Scotland) doesn't make you an Encyclopedia on Irish Republicanism. However your responses speak volumes about you! To me you seem to be some young lad who loves to romantacism of the Republican Struggle while unwilling to accept it wasn't all 'nice'. Face it, while the case of Irish Republicanism is justified both morally and politically. The IRA, and other Republican Paramilitary Groups didn't allways act morally. The sooner you realise that the better. I also seem to remember something about some IRA cover organisation called something like 'Direct Action Against Drugs'. Which was basically aimed at getting rid of Loyalist Paramilitary groups dealing drugs in the vicinity of Republican areas. Not anti Drugs per se. The Cain websites are good for brief details on that. You've pissed me off now! Right, bed. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
i never claimed the ira didnt take part in illegal activities. they had to fund a armed campaign and those dont come cheap. my point is in response to those who claim republican groups have been involved in drug dealing which is blatantly untrue.
if just one current or ex member of a republican armed group were involved in this you can bet the police and media would be screaming it from the rooftops, they were happy to blame the ira for the northen bank robbery on evidence which was no where near sufficient to bring about convictions after all. the fact that not one person on this forum can give me a list of convictions shows what these claims are. a smear campaign aimed at republicans. A bit of fuel smuggling doesnt quite have the same impact as accusations of drug dealing. republican groups are also fiercly anti drugs i can assure you of that and its a core policy of the vast majority of groups. I also did my dissertation on a comparison between the good friday agreement and sunningdale and achieved a very high mark for it so if you want to use academic standards as a point of reference my arguments in the past have more than stood up to that scrutiny. I certainly dont have a 'romanticised' view of the ira. many of the things they did were very unpleasant and at times they made very costly errors which lead to the unfortunate loss of civillian lives. At the time though there were very little options for the nationalist community other than an armed campaign. my major regret would be that a situation like the gfa could not have been brought about much earlier. in my opinion though the root of the conflict in ireland has always been and remains british involvement in ireland and there will be no true justice in that society untill the fate of that island is decided by its inhabitants alone. |
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| Cymro |
Parkhead, do you actually read posts or do you justr see what you want to see?
Why waste both your time and mine saying talking about the cause of Irish Republicanism is British involvemtn in the Ireland? I KNOW! I support campaigns to get British involvment out of Ireland. It has nothing to do with what is being discussed now though! I don't need to list Republican members involved in drugs. Like it or not, the PIRA have got involved in illegal stuff, possibly including the Northern Bank to some extent - I am not privy to the ins and outs of neither Republican work in NI nor the work of the PSNI, unlike some! 
The actions of PIRA members with the McCartney affair is proof that some members from time to time as a rule upon themselves and will do some things, maybe not sanctioned by the command in the name of the organisation. The McCartney affair lost the PIRA a lot of support, or in the very least acceptance amongst it's traditional support in the province. How are you so Confident that PIRA members haven't got involved in drug pushing to raise money for the organisation? Do you get the accounts sent to your Republican Band in Scotland every year? Are you in the chain of command? Could it be possible that parkhead_rfb doensn't know everything about what these 'Soldiers' are up to all the time? Regarding your acedemic skills in the subject. Different to you, I accept I don't know everything about republicanism in NI. You seem to think that because you support Celtic, can sing some rebel songs and play in a Republican Band that you can talk for the various Republican groups. Your a member of a band which celebrates Irish Republicanism in Scotland. You support a football team who's support are mainly Labour Party supporters therefore vote for an Unionist Party. Can you see the hypocricy here? |
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| parkhead_rfb |
first of all i dont have to agree with the voting choice of celtic fans do i? i have already said i disagree with that. A recent poll on the huddleboard though, which is one of the largest celtic sites, indicated that the majority would be voting for parties such as the ssp, snp, greens etc.
Unlike yourself (i assume) i know many people involved in the republican movement. i have stayed in their homes, spent long periods of time in their company and know their views on many issues. that is why i can state that republican groups are totally anti drugs. you on the other hand seem to be basing your statement on an "ah well they could be" basis without any actual evidence. Untill you have evidence i would ask you to refrain from making insubstantiated claims. Theres scarcely a home in the six counties that hasnt had its door broken down in the last thirty years am pretty sure some drug convictions would have surfaced if it was the case that they were involved. I also dont think i know everything about republicanism but i have been reading on the subject since i was around 15 years of age so i would say i have a very wide knowledge of the subject area. |
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| Wolf of Badenoch |
Lumpin` f**k! Noo ave no had a chance tae read through aw the posts but am sure it says this is a fitba thread.Can ye no tak it tae the "Uk an Ireland" section.Its fitba! fitba`doon here in the depths.
Only in Scotland. 
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| Cymro |
Parkhead. I'll ask you again ( I know you only like to answer questions you like to answer - I'm still waiting to here what this Catholic Ethos which makes schools succeed is too). How do you know that none of the various Republican Paramilitary organisations have NEVER made money out of the illegal sale of drugs? Staying in the homes of republicans means f**k all to me, as does you marching in a Republican Band. Why would they tell you if they knew anything about it? Even with the little knowledge I have of selling drugs, I do know that it's not something you go about broadcasting! Especially if you are an organisation like the PIRA who likes being seen as the 'protector' of Catholics in NI. I have a few close friends from NI, who are passionatly Republican. But can't stand the PIRA or the RIRA for what they see as 'dragging republicanism through the mud', and using fear to dominate Republican communities. I also have a veey close friend who's a Unionist from Northern Ireland. Spoken to them for hours on various issues. Do I know it all? Do I hell! I've never said "I know PIRA sell drugs". I merely state, I wouldn't be suprised, given they are long used to smuggling and selling illegal stuff, and can do it well. Like the fuel one! Only a very stupid person would claim to know 1 way or another, which is what you did. Just like you claimed my story about the Fuel Smuggling was "pure fantasy". You obviously didn't know about that did you?! So why would you know about illegal drugs? That is what pissed me off, as you'd never heard of it, it couldn't be true. Which is purely Patronising. Like it or not, the Republican Paramilitary groups wheren't angels, so why is selling illegal drugs, lets say in Loyalist areas beyond their grasp? How individuals treated McCarthey proves they are capable of 'miss treating' their own side too from time to time! By the looks of things you are the one living in some fantasy land. You are a Scots man living in Scotland, you have some link so socieities celebrating Irish Republicans. With everydue respect you aren't in any better a situation than I am to place your hand on your heart and say you are 100% certain! Life isn't allways a quest of Good v's Evil. Occasionally Good can also be Evil. I'm starting to realise now, why my fiance's cousin, a young Rangers supporter and former soldier who served in Northern Ireland won't vote SNP or anything similar despite saying he likes the idea of Scotland being independent. The way he sees it, is that it will create a country which hates its own soldiers who've served for Britain and create the same "fucked up situation, as in Northern Ireland". Judging by your posts, can't argue with him too much. He's seen more serious situations in Northern Ireland than I have, and quite possibly you have. Including getting hit on the head by a brick and knocked over by a car. And, Wolf of Badenoch, I'm more than happy to see this thread move. I'm not in a position to do it, but if someone can feel free. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
i never claimed the ira fuel smuggling was fantasy, clearly its not its been a favourite of the ira over the years. my point is that the drug dealing smear has been used against republican groups as it is far more emotive than fuel smuggling, illegal tobacco etc.
why also should i have to prove that the ira have never sold drugs to claim that they didnt. have you never heard if innocent until proven guilty. you could claim anything you like on that basis then continue saying it on the basis it might be true. so will you admit you have no evidence of the ira ever having been involved in selling drugs? |
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| Cado |
Are there some people who are deliberately out to 'bait' things?
I think we all know that their are some fairly contentious aspects of our past that give cause for people to feel emotive about issues. But some things are best left unsaid IMO - let sleeping dogs lie. |
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| Cymro |
I have no driect evidence no. I never claimed to have. I merely stated that your claims that they hadn't is daft. And if you didn't claim it was Fantasy, what is this then?
Just because you wheren't aware of it, despite by the looks of things believing you are in some 'loop', it therefore can't be true. Do you still claim 100% that Republican Paramilitiaries are not involved in drugs? |
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| parkhead_rfb |
yes i still claim 100% they are not. and in the past anyone found to be doing so would have been dealt with severely. due to political developments in the pira though the physical aspect may not be the case though but they would certainly be well ostracised from the movement.
i have already told you what the fuel smuggling point is, its true. I've never denied it. I would ask though that as you have admitted you have no real basis to claim that the ira even may be dealing drugs that you dont do so. this is used as a stick to beat the republican movement is and its patantly untrue. I am sure you would feel the same if plaid cymru etc were being dealt the same accusations with no foundations so please extend that courtesy to others. |
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| Cymro |
Wow, Parkhead now you really ARE desperate!
What the hell is this about?
Are Plaid Cymru a Terrorist Organisation? Are Plaid Cymru even an Illegal Organisation? Do Plaid Cymru have links to any of these? Nope. Have I said Sinn Fein are drug dealers? Have I actually said the PIRA or any simmilar organisations ARE Drug Dealers? Nope. Almost every message where you are involved includes attempts by your good self at blurring issues and hiding behind things but this is just stupid and taking the Urine! Or are you infact telling me that Sinn Fein and the PIRA ARE one and the same? If so, I'd better go and appologise to a Tory supporter on another message board for calling him Norman Tebbit for calling Sinn Fein a terrorist organisation. I merely stated that drug activites wouldn't be beyond Republican Organisations. The fact that they deny it means nothing - I'd imagine any drug dealer would deny publically they deny drugs. How do you know 100% that Republican Organisations aren't making some money from drugs? I surely don't need to tell you that money from drugs can be made in other ways other than hanging around play grounds or dodgy pubs with small bags of smack in my pocket do I? Are you in contact with every member of Republican Paramilitary groups in NI and beyond? Or do you know a small group of people who may or not have some links to some organisations or members but could no wau vouch for every member? Open your eyes and accpet, elements of Republican Paramilitary groups as well as being 'heroes' in the eyes of some, freedom fighters in the name of many are also criminals and will shaft their own as easily as they'll shaft others. I support the cause of these people I'm not naive enough to think they are all angles and good people though. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
so i am supposed to 100% prove that every member everywhere of republican groups doesnt take part in drug dealing for me to say they dont? thats a nonsense argument. the burden of proof is on you.
do you have EVIDENCE that republican groups are or have been involved in drug dealing, yes or no? |
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| Cymro |
Right Parkhead, I'll make this VERY EASY for you now. You're obviously struggling with this.
1. I never said I knew that Republican Paramilitary organisations where involved in drugs. Why would I? I merely stated that invovmment in the illegal distribution would be well within the grasp of these organisations. And that to claim they wouldn't be involved in this is stupid. 2. At least twice you claimed that you knew 100% that they wheren't involved including both here
and here
3. Do you now accept, that their is a chance that elements of Republican Paramilitary groups may be involved in this - not necessarily with the Bosses seal of apporval? As I said, certain members of the PIRA aren't beyond going against those communities they claim to serve from time to time are they? Saying you've stayed with some republicans means as much as me saying I've stayed in a British Soldiers home and know they never did anything bad as a result of that. 4. And as for your Plaid Cymru desperate comment!
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| parkhead_rfb |
you could say people may be anything. gerry adams may be having a gay affair with martin mcguines, tony blair may be involved in a paedophile ring with john prescott. these claims may well be ridiculous but they MAY be true.
my point is if all you can base statements on is the basis that they may be true and it can never be 100% proved they are not. it would seem that members of republican groups have NEVER been convicted or even charged with such offenses. therefore i would have to group the statement that the ira may deal drugs as being as ridiculous as the ones above. |
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| Cymro |
Here comes the blurring brush again!
Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness carnel relations is nothing like the possiblity of certain members of a republican paramilitary organisation possibly being involved in drugs. I don't know whether republicans have been done for drugs or not. My point was that you don't know. You pissed me off, by saying anything you hadn't heard of was "pure fantasy" and stating that I was making things up against them. Now it seems you have accpeted, that being in a Republcan Band in Scotland, and singing Irish Republican songs in a football match in Scotland isn't enough in the real world. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
well why bother making the statement if there isnt any indication they have been? theres a clear indication they are anti drugs in the actions od Direct Action Against Drug Dealers. you then constructed some fancifull notion about them attacking loyalists who might be dealing in nationalist areas i think it was. | ||||||||
| IF Convenor |
Drug dealers have been known to assault rival dealers to protect their turf.
Parkie, you have the most biased uncritical view of Ireland in general and Irish republican paramilitaries in particular. It's never good to be so blindly accepting of anything and I advise you to be a bit more sceptical. |
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| Cymro |
Thats my point entirely, and well done of making it far better than me! 
Parkhead, Direct Action Against Drugs was a IRA cover organisation aimed at taking Drug Dealers with Loyalist links out of the Republican areas. That has been noted several times. As I told you, the Cain website will help you come to terms with that one. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
I think you will find the daad was about attacking drug dealers in general, there have also been similar attacks in dublin, bit of a way for loyalists to be peddling drugs.
I find it incredible though that i am being criticised for pointing out that the claim the ira have dealt drugs has NO EVIDENCE. I may not like loyalist or unionist groups but if i am going to say something about them i would at least make sure it had a basis other than "ah well they could be". maybe you should look at more in depth works on republican groups other than websites in general. coogans the ira and bishop and mallies the provisional ira will all give a far more detailed inshight into the ira. strangely they dont make any claims about the ira dealing drugs. they must be blinded also. |
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| Cymro |
Read Coogans, have it here in fact. Will read the other one day.
Nothing strange in Loyalists being active in drug dealing terms in the Republic. They attacked the republic a few times, why not deal drugs? Of course, in your eyes the Irish are innocent, and as for Republican Paramilitaires, all heroes. But those pesky Scots that for all sorts of reasons joined the army, of evil people. Grow up |
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| Rinty |
yThis is an interesting thread. Let me get this straight. Unless Parkhead can prove that all republcians are innocent of all drug dealing then it is Ok for Rangers fans to consider a Polish Catholic blessing himnself to be a criminal offence. Is that a fair summation of the arguments so far? |
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| Cymro |
Oh come on Rinty, I'd expect better from you. I didn't think that 'Celtic link' was so strong for you.
I don't see anyone here justifying certain (not all) Rangers fans complaining to the Police about a Catholic man blessing himself in a football match. Those fans are pathetic. The reason I came into this argument was out of initial frustration of Parkheads patronising attitude with anyone who dared say the PIRA etc are anything but heroes for the Republican cause. And his description as 'Fantasy' to anything he didn't know of or refused to accept. I'm a Welsh Nationalist and have no time for the Union in Ireland or anywhere else, but I accept that certain people aren't herous and the PIRA, CIRA, RIRA, INLA etc have all from time to time acted against the majority of the people they claim to defend - the McCarthey event the most recent obvious one. If they have certain members who are willing and able to beat a lad to death, why is being involved in drugs in someway beyond them? |
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| Rinty |
yWhat do you mean by the Celtic link being so strong Cymro, If you read my posts you will se that my background is Ulster protestant and scots, my football team has nothing to do with my poltics.My experience of PIRA and drugs is more akin to Parkheads. If caught dealing drugs in the Ardoyne in the 80's you would most certainly have faced stern punishment from the IRA. What I dont get is how we go from a blatant sectarian incident like the one involving Boruc to all Irish catholics in Scotland having to defend all actions of Irish republicans. |
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| Cymro |
The discussion evolved. They do that sometimes.
What I was getting at was that you seemed to want to defend your Celtic 'brethern' in Parkhead-rfb by making a comment, which I'm sorry to say, was erm Daft. Your background has nothing to do with it. Your experiences may be different, but they are just that. Yours. What I was trying to say was from time to time members of the RA and others have gone against the Catholic Community in NI which they claim to defend. If they can kill Catholics for what ever reason through out history. How can you or anyone else say with your hand on your heart that they haven't had members who at some time had connections to illegal drugs in the province. Probably at the root of it for me is exacperation of an apparent Scots man, seeming to be more proud of another country than his own. He's happy enough to attack Scots for doing this that and the next under the flag of Britain, yet isn't willing to accept people have done the same sort of things under the tricolour too. |
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| Rinty |
yThe thread did evolve, and in quite an ugly fashion. Parkhead said he found the actions of the British army offensive (in Ireland and Iraq) the reply was the he defended drug dealing criminals and it took off from there.Parkhead seems to face this every time he makes a point re Scots bigotry against Irah catholics or the British involvement in Ireland. He will tell you that me and him do disagree on many things (especially on Celtic supporters) but I do think we have a problem in Scotland with how we react to the views of people of Irish descent. People of palestine descent defending Hezbollah would not come in for the same scrutiny even if they did have a sports team that became a home for many of their supporters. We all suffered under the empire but it would seem obvious that the Irish suffered more and for longer. I'm not ashamed of my familys past but I do acknowledge the part we played as scots oppressing the Irish. |
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| SLG |
If any Rangers fan came on here defending the bigoted singing or the glorification of Ulster loyalist that goes on from some of their fans, they would receive a barrage of criticism. I think it's fair enough that people should question the motives of the section of the Celtic support and Parkhead in supporting certain paramilitary organisations.
I don't think this has anything to do with Scottish views of people with Irish descent. I know plenty 'ethnic' (if you want to put it that way) Scots, Scots of Irish decent and Irish people of Irish descent who have a problem with the glorification and continuing support of republican paramilitary activity. I can understand sympathy with the IRA in the past, but to continue to support a military solution to the problems in the six counties is hard to justify IMO. I also think that the comparison of the situation in northern Ireland with that of Palestine or Lebanon is false. |
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| IF Convenor |
I would like to remind everyone that there is more to Scotland than the south west corner. Too many people talk about Scotland's problem with sectarianism and Scotland's problem with the descendants of Irish immigrants. These are not Scotland-wide problems; they are practically unheard of except in very specific areas of Scotland. | ||||||||
| Cymro |
Re: y
Oh come on Rinty. I think you (like Parkhead) are being over simplistic here. Seems this "Irish where worse effected" is quite contageous within Celtic FC Supporters. The Welsh and the Scots, like the Irish have suffered under the empire. We where the cannon fodder for years and remain that way now. People from working class areas in Wales and Scotland are still 'forced' to join the Armed Forces now due to the nature of the deprivaion in their communities. Forces like Blackwatch are sent back into battle time after time after time. As a member of the SSP (for now) surely I don't need to be talking to you about this do I? It's not only Potato Famines and Terrorism that signifies suffering Rinty! No one can deny the Irish have suffered and the Northern Irish (on both sides of the divide) continue to do so. But the Irish are no more special or nice than the rest of us. The sooner certain people realise that the better. |
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| Rinty |
yTotally agree IF, but there are real historical reasons for that. I understand what you are saying SLG but it does go firther than that sometimes. Even if people like RFB are not supporting terrorism they often come in for criticism that we wouldnt level at other communities. I often here people make comments like "if you want to fly the tricolour go live in Ireland". Last week at our local gala day parade I was a stewrad in the parade led by an ornamental dragon from our local Chinese community. Can you imagine the reaction if I said to them that if they wanted to disply such symbols they should f off back to China.No-one is kmore critical of Celtic supporters analysis of Ireland than me, but I do at games, in supporters busses and to their face. But that doesnt mean that all opinions should be treated this way. If rfb supports armed resistance to the British army that is one thing, it doesnt meanthat we can automatically equate that with condoning drug smuggling or killing innocents. A fine example of this was cymru's reply to me a few posts back which he has since apologised for. I defended rfb and he immediately assumed things about my background and attempted to put me in a caricatured box. I'm not complaining about that specifically as he has pointed out that he was mistaken, but it is a common reaction. |
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| Cymro |
Erm, what? I never made any assumption on your background - I know from this and another Poltical Message Board that you are a Protestant with links to Ulster. My point was, wich I later clarified, was that your apparent wish to defend Parkhead derived from your support of Celtic which in my opintion made your response a bit daft. I certianly never appologised for doing nothing wrong. I realise the intense historic rivalry means Celtic fans will hate Rangers, and Rangers fans hate Celtic. But your posts implying that most if not all Rangers fans are guilty of stupid petty secterian things like complaining to the Police about Boruc is rubbish. It benefits Celtic to see Rangers and all those associated with it as Catholic haters, just like it benefits Rangers that Celtic are perceived as the Anti Rangers and Northern Ireland team. Neither of which are totally true, but in these cases they rarely are. Elements within Rangers are biggotted trolls. No one is denying that. But why tarnish them all with the same brush? I could say all Celtic fans are IRA lovers. I'd be wrong of course. |
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| SLG |
Rinty, I think that's a different argument. Fair enough, the whole 'fly a tricolour = not Scots' thing does exist. But whether certain Irish republican organisation have been drug dealing or not (and while I think it's perfectly possible that they have - though not at the lowest level actually on the street - I would have to agree with Parkhead that unless there is proof, you have to assume that they haven't been), there are plenty other reasons to find support of them unpalatable. I should be able to criticise this without being accused of the being anti-Irish. You might want to criticise some Celtic supporters at games etc, but this is still a discussion forum and I don't see why Parkhead and anyone else who supports paramilitary Irish republican organisations in the present day shouldn't have their opinions questioned.
As for comparing the different communities, I would disagree (as I think I've said before). I think if you had the biggest football club in Scotland associating with another country (say China), 60000 folk waving Chinese flags etc etc, I think many folk would have issues with it. It's human nature and one of the negative aspects of nationalism. This is compounded by the lack of any other 'ethnic' (I'd rather not use that word, but never mind...) group in Scotland. This leads to an 'us and them' sort of scenario. This is very different from places like Boston, Melbourne or London where there are numerous ethnic groups and no 'minority' group dominant over the others. |
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| Cymro |
I agree SLG, well put.
Again |
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| Congal |
Maybe this should be back on the football thread  But just in case anyone's interested I THINK there is something on the 'Heaven and Earth' programme to-morrow morning BBC 1,which takes a look at sectarianism in Scottish football.
Not sure what time it starts at. |
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| Congal |
Think I may have made a bit of a blunder there. I think it may have been on last week. Soreeee 
|
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| Rinty |
yNo it was today, with Hazel Irvine.I was going out to a meeting but managed to catch the start. It didnt get off to a very accurate start when it said that a number of exclusively catholic organisations were set up in the 19th century including Celtic FC. Its a bit disappointing as you would have thought that any modicum of research would have informed them that Celtic have never been exclusively Catholic. In fact in Celtics first match (against the exclusively protestant Rangers) I believe there were 5 or 6 non-catholics in th team. |
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| Congal |
I'm a bit peeved at missin it. Just back from holiday and was gittin a bit confused in my Sundays. So did'nt even bother checking it out this morning.  Ach well.
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| neil8r |
Re: y
In a country where only 15% are Catholic and the vast majority Protestant it's hardly surprising that a team could be all Protestant. I'm interested to know why you needed to use the term 'exclusively protestant' though. Can you confirm that they were exclusively protestant as opposed to simply all being protestant. |
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| SLG |
I'm sorry, but the vast majority are not Protestant. 2001 census results...
42.4% CoS 15.88% Roman Catholic 6.8% Other Christian 27.55% No religion http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/36496/0029047.pdf |
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| neil8r |
We are talking about 1888, not 2001 |
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| SLG |
Sorry, fair enough. | ||||||||
| Rinty |
yRangers were an exclusively protestant team in that they didnt allow catholics to play for them until the 1980's.Although in saying that, I am not sure whether players had to be protestnat or whthere it was that they coudnt be catholics. It might be that Jewish player and muslim players were allowed in the team but catholics were not. |
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| neil8r |
Re: y
So what you are saying is that you don't know. Everything i've read about Rangers has said that the main protestant connection came round about 1910-12 when protestant shipyard workers came from Belfast to Govan, although earlier when Celtic were founded as a Catholic club this resulted in Protestants adopting Rangers as theirs. |
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| Blackadder |
I think I have some Irish blood in the family. Also Welsh, Scots, French, Spanish, Dutch, German, Austro-Hungarian, Romanian, Polish, Italian ... probably some Catholic and Muslim with a hint of Buddhist ... she was a sporting woman, my mother! | ||||||||
| parkhead_rfb |
To defend previous irish republican activity is not to support a continued military campaign. i believe in a political solution but that doesnt mean i will deny the fact i support many of irish republicans previous actions. I would also never morally condem the right of others to continue to resist british rule in ireland by physical means. while britain remains in ireland there will always remain a legitimate right for people to do that even if i personally dont feel its the way forward now. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
I fully expect my views to be challeneged. i am glad you accept though you cant label claims against people simply because they might be true. by that logic you could legitimately claim anything about anybody. |
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| Rinty |
t
No, Celtic were NOT founded as a "catholic" club. When Celtic were founded Rangers already had been in existence for 15 years. To say that Rangers adopting protestantism as a response to Celtic is ridiculous, Celtic have never been a catholic club. Other teams like Hibs and various teams called Hibernians or Shamrock were supposedly initially catholic teams, but Celtic never were. I am prepared to accept that perhaps my point about Rangers being exclusively protestant might not be accurate when applied to the elevel players who lost 5-2 to Celtic in celtics first match, but it is true that Rangers were an organisation thate xcluded catholic for the best part of a century possibly longer, it is also true that Celtic have never excluded anyone based on religion. You seem to know a bit more than me about it so perhaps you can tell us whether the Rangers way was to be a team for protestants or whether it was just anyone as long as they weren't catholics. |
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| Congal |
Some time ago I can remember reading an article. I haven't the 'back-up' for it now. It was in the Ulster[ISN] on the inside football feature there was a guy called Basil Easterbrook who had a regular column.....I think he must have written for a few papers, who all used his articles'
Most of his articles were about English football,but on one occassion he did an article about Scottish football and the Rangers Celtic thing. He said that Celtic was started by an Irish priest. He also said that when the club started, this priest had said that......we must build a team here that will make people sit up and take notice and show them what Irish Catholic manhood can achieve. Nothing much wrong with that. But you have to set it against attitudes in those times. I think it would be like a red cloth to a bull,set in the rough and tough times in Glasgow. The equivelient I would suppose, of an English team forming in Dublin and making the same statement. Not the only reason,but I would say it did contribute to what grew later. |
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| Rinty |
tCeltic were started by a brother not a priest and chose the name celtic as it was a shared name for scots and irish. It was a charity club to raise money for the porr of the east end, many of whom were catholic. The first match that they played had five catholics and five non-catholics in the team and one man who no-one knows what religion he was.Rangers on the other hand had a policy of not signing catholics that they held for many years. To suggest it was because celtic intimidated them by the red rag of and old irish monk was saying something (if he did say that) is a porr excuse. Why didnt other clubs react in the same against Hibs, Dundee Hibernian etc. Why didnt Man City react in that way when Man Utd had a catholic signing policy in there early days. Its a piss poor excuse. I think the post by neil is more likely, that a group of NI immigrants cemented the protestant/loyalist thing with Rangers. It sounds more feasible, but by 1910/12 everyone would have known for sure that Celtic were a mixed club so it wouldnt be so much a reaction to celtics policy as a reaction to their supporters being what the NI immigrants would see as the other side. But it has to be said again I think. CELTIC HAVE NEVER BEEN AN EXCLUSILEY CATHOLIC CLUB RANGERS WERE ONCE A CLUB WHO REFUSED TO SIGN CATHOLICS Looking at the situation in any historical context requires that basic knowledge which, to get back on thread, the TV programme on Sunday lacked. It didnt mention that Rangers had a policy of not signing catholics, but it mistakenly said that celtic were one of a number of exclusively catholic organisations. |
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| Congal |
Sorry, as one who is ignorant of all the different clerical positions within the Roman Catholic church a brother and a priest would just be the same to me. Maybe a wee bit like a pastor and a minister in the Protestant church.
I never ever said what Rangers policy was. I'm not privy to board decisions within that club. But if they did so decide, that was up to them. Personally I have no problem with Glasgow Celtic playing 11 Roman Catholics if they so chose. Its called freedom of choice. I think in this day and age we have lost that freedom of choice due to the P.C.brigade. I believe the way it is now,if Rangers/Celtic found themselves with top players of a Protestant/Catholic background. They would ignore some of those players in order to keep themselves 'right'. As I say I've no problem if Celtic adapted an R.C. only policy. That would be entirely their own business and nothing whatsoever to do with me. |
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| Rinty |
yBut they havent, and they never have.Would you have no problem with a side signing anyone EXCEPT one particular denomination. What if, for instance, St Mirren said we will sign anyone except jews, would that be OK? A brother is like a monk BTW, I'm not up with the ins and outs of any faith but I do know that. |
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| Avatar |
"I would also never morally condem the right of others to continue to resist british rule in ireland by physical means. while britain remains in ireland there will always remain a legitimate right for people to do that even if i personally dont feel its the way forward now."
Just curious as to whether you think the same legitimate right to resist british rule exists in Scotland and Wales? |
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| Congal |
Re: y
If they haven't then that is entirely their choice. I'm personally not fussed one way or the other. Would the R.C. church accept me into that church if I was and stayed a Jew. Everyone espouses freedom nowdays,but in many ways it is being taken away. The PC people have actually done what Hitler and the Communist countries failed to do. In a more sutle way granted,but they have created the climate that people are afraid to act or speak as they might want to do,in fear of being labelled a bigot,racist etc. Its a very sorry state of affairs when it has reached that stage. Motherwell couldn't do that even if they wanted to. With the laws that are out now. As for me it wouldn't affect me,but if I was a Jew.... I know what I would do. I wouldn't girn about it,but take a leaf out of the brother's book and set up a team of fellow Jews and win everything in front of us. Something like what Jesse Owens did to Hitler really rub it up them. By the way I was talking about the brother's sentiments. As you've already pointed out it was a mixed team. |
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| Congal |
Has an Ulster Nationalist the right to resist Irish rule? | ||||||||
| parkhead_rfb |
if scottish people wanted to mount a military campaign i may not agree with it but i wouldnt condem it morally.
likewise if unionists in ulster wished to mount a military campaign then i certainly would not agree with it but i wouldnt call it terrorism. If though they continue in their fashion of just attacking people for being catholic then i would condem that. |
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| Firefox |
Re: y
Isn't that an Oxymoron? To be Jewish is to consider Jesus of Nazareth a fraud and merely a prophet (at best). To be Roman Catholic is to consider him King of Kings and Prince of Peace and Son of God. Personally I believe he's as relevant as Harry Potter or James and the Giant Peach - or any story written by Rhold Dahl - but some of youse have yer ain opinions. |
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| neil8r |
Re: t
So a club founded by a Catholic Monk in a Catholic church hall for the benefit of a Catholic charity isn't Catholic, but Rangers formed by guys who are Protestant to play football are Protestant? If you read my earlier post correctly, supporters adopted Rangers as a Protestant club in response to Celtic being the Catholic club, the club never adopted Protestantism. |
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| Rinty |
yAgain you mistakenly called Celtic a catholic club, they never have been. The charity that was celtic was also not a catholic charity but a charity for residents of the East End of Glasgow who happened to have a high Irish immigrant population.Rangers refused to sign catholics for decades, celtic have never excluded protestants, that is a fact no matter how you try to spin it. The TV programme we were discussing mistakenly called celtic an exclusively catholic organisation, that was incorrect. If rangers fans forced the clubs hand in not employing catholics it could not have been as a response to another team being a catholic club as there was no such club in Glasgow at the time. The club itself refused to sign catholics, if that was influenced by the supporters that is one thing but it is not the case that the club was indifferent to the situation. This gets back to my earlier points, what is it that makes some sections of our population believe that being catholic or being Irish somehow means being anti-protestant or anti-scottish? My own family came here from Ulster and were (some still are) from a loyalist/orange background. I know about the prejudices that we had to shake off but I worry for a nation where a Polish catholic is considered a criminal by some for blessing himself. Even more worrying is a thread that turns into the idea that it is Celtics fault for being founded by (among others) a catholic brother. Clergymen found charities and community groups all of the time. Our local minister founded a charity for addicts and their families, at no time did anyone consider it exclusively protestant. I fear if it was the local priest that started it, we may have seen a rival protestant support group set up, such is the nature of our society. |
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| Blackadder |
Celtic has a strong Irish Catholic presence at its roots ... so does Hibernian. Both however, were not and are not as sectarian as RFC still is ... and HoMFC used to be.
Religion has no place in football ... but it does due to the tribal mentality of the supporters. Frankly, religion has no place in a decent society because it is by its very proselityzing nature, divisive and corrupting. Which has always made it a very good tool for your lords and masters to use to keep you peasants in your place. |
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| Cymro |
Apparently Queens Park where the origninal team popular with 'Protestants' before Rangers came into being. | ||||||||
| neil8r |
Re: y
Actually thats not true, they have: John Spencer, Pat Lafferty(1885), Archie Kyle(1904), Willie "Doc" Kivlichan(1905)(also Ex-Celtic), Joe Donnachie(1919), Johnny Jackson, Hugh O’Neill, Laurie Blyth, Constantine McGhie(1906), James Tutty, Colin Mainds, Tom Murray, Tom Dunbar, Don Kichenbrand(1955), McCallum, Brown, Wylie all Catholics who played for Rangers pre-1989.
Again as i said previously, supporters adopted Rangers as a Protestant club in response to Celtic being the Catholic club
http://physed.otago.ac.nz/sosol/v6i1/v6i1_1.html
Who has suggested that? |
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| neil8r |
You need to be clear here when talking about these issues, Rangers Football club is not sectarian, elements of the support however are. |
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| Congal |
Re: y
 OK then......a Mormon, Pentecostal or even....whisper it....a Presbyterian.
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| Congal |
Re: y
The Polish Roman Catholic was bringing religion into sport. As some others on this thread have said....this is not on. His church is the place for that.......or his own home. The 'fault' [and I didn't say it was a fault] was in the sentiments he expressed. If you read back. I'm sure I said in relation to those sentiments.....''there's no harm in that''. The thing is we are constantly urged to be careful what we say,as it can be taken up by some,as an attack on their beliefs,traditions etc. One person who has been repeatedly castigated about this is Ian Paisley. Even the Ranger's supporters have been under attack over the years for their ''we are the people'' talk and attitude. The brother's speak could be construed by some to be in the same vein. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
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