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The Lithgae Jambo

Braver than us

I wish Kosovo well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7247428.stm
Aventinian

Most of them would probably rather be part of Albania, but realise there's not the faintest chance of it being allowed by the UN for fear of annoying Russia and Serbia too much. In that respect, it's rather like Northern Ireland with the population numbers reversed.

Unless 'independence' comes with a great deal of international oversight, I can see it turning into a disaster.
RFM

They certainly regard Kosovo as part of Albania. Look at the flags they are waving in the streets of Pristina today.
Dave Coull

The heading on this topic is "Braver than us".

Would the person who decided on that heading like to try to explain in what way the Muslim sectarian fanatics who have taken over from the Christian Orthodox sectarian fanatics as top dogs in Kosovo are "braver than us"?

Is it because they have approved a constitution written in German which most of the population, of all religious and ethnic backgrounds, can't even read? Is it because their "independent" statelet is being propped up by foreign troops? No? Well what, then?
RFM

How about it Lithgae jambo?

We are all ears.
iainmhor

The KLA and the people of Kosovo fought for their freedom as is their inalienable right. Faced with Serbian national chauvinism and oppression backed by Russia is it any wonder that like the Kurds, they adopt the position, my enemys enemy is my friend?

A potential by product could be Russian and Serbian support for Scottish independence.
Dave Coull

Iainmohr says "The KLA" (a sectarian militia) "and the people of Kosovo" (or at least some of them, some opposed the KLA, some supported neither side) "fought for their freedom as is their inalienable right. Faced with Serbian national chauvinism and oppression backed by Russia is it any wonder that like the Kurds, they adopt the position, my enemys enemy is my friend?"

That doesn't answer the question which I raised. In what way are they "braver than us"?
iainmhor

Id say they were braver than us now because they were prepared to fight and die for their independence. Most Scots are only prepared to fight and die for Englands glory.

Shameful.
Aventinian

iainmhor wrote:
The KLA and the people of Kosovo fought for their freedom as is their inalienable right.


No it isn't. Not any more than it is my inalienable right to set up an independent country in my local park and shoot the village postman.

Dave Coull wrote:
Isn't it strange how British so-called "justice" works.


iainmhor wrote:
Id say they were braver than us now because they were prepared to fight and die for their independence. Most Scots are only prepared to fight and die for Englands glory.


Isn't it funny how anything unpleasant is never Scottish, always 'British' or, if you can possibly squeeze it, 'English' despite obvious facts to the contrary?

Bigots, the lot of you.
William_Cleland

iainmhor wrote:
The KLA and the people of Kosovo fought for their freedom as is their inalienable right. Faced with Serbian national chauvinism and oppression backed by Russia is it any wonder that like the Kurds, they adopt the position, my enemys enemy is my friend?


I suspected you would not be cerebral and/or informed enough to understand that Kosovo does not fit neatly into the Irish republican world view. Most of the Albanians in Kosovo are descended from relatively recent Ottoman era planters on what had been Serbian land prior to major defeats on the battlefield in 1389 and ironically enough 1690 at the hands of the Turks. Based on the notions of "ancient nations" that are so dear to the hearts of Irish nationalists Kosovo has no more validity than Northern Ireland even if the parallels are far from exact.
Rinty

Aye, the situation is very similar to NI, the albanians being the ulster scots (only more % population).

I would bet that Kosovo will eventually be part of albania, it is the natural progression from this step.  Their independence and vision of indeopendence is based entirekly on their albanian ethinicity just as unionism in NI is based on the British Identity.
William_Cleland

Bring back the days of workers' self-managment and jedinstvo i bratsvo. Smile Agreed on a Greater Albania being the end game. Next on the agenda will be western Macedonia. If demographic trends continue Albanians will form the majority in Macedonia in about another generation's time so another ex-Yugo partition is most definitely on the cards unless the ethnic Macedonians want Albania to wind up having a border with Bulgaria.
Dave Coull

Iainmohr wrote "Id say they were braver than us now because they were prepared to fight and die for their independence"

That shows several mis-understandings of the actual situation.

First of all, you completely ignore the RELIGIOUS or sectarian aspect. Serb equals Christian Orthodox, Albanian equals Muslim.

The KLA was/is a Muslim militia. I don't think the KLA were fighting for "independence" as such. I'd say most of them were fighting for two things, (1) as a defence of Kosovo's Muslim/Albanian community against attacks by Serbian Orthodox Christian extremists, and (2) for their own extremist end of a Union with Greater Albania (still not achieved yet).

Kosovo "independence" is (for now, at least) what has actually happened, but it wasn't what folk were fighting for, and it is unlikely to be the end result.

As for the comparison with Scotland, we Scots include at least two major Christian groupings, as well as Muslims. While there can be some tensions between the various groups, and while there may have been some increased hostility towards Scotland's Muslims in recent years, the sectarian situation here isn't even remotely anything like as bad as in Kosovo. Since nobody's religious community is actually threatened with physical extinction or expulsion, we don't have anything like the KLA fighting to defend "their" community from sectarian attacks. Also, many KLA fighters were seeking Union with an external "homeland", namely Albania. The equivelant here in Scotland would be if we had an Irish Catholic militia seeking Union with Ireland, or if we had a Muslim militia seeking Union with Pakistan. Since neither of these things exists here, it makes no sense to compare Kosovo with Scotland.

The reality is that few people in Kosovo actually wanted "independence" as such. They wanted either Union with Serbia, or Union with Albania. Here in Scotland, we really do have a significant INDEPENDENCE movement. But since we are not threatened with physical extinction, we are prepared to seek independence peacefully and democratically. To claim that the Kosovars who were prepared to take up arms in a totally different situation, and for completely different aims, are somehow "braver", is nonsense.
RFM

To iainmhor,

The comparison of Kosovo with Northern Ireland is not even remotely close, and notions of their fighting for their independence betrays a want  knowledge of the history of the area.

The KLA appeared on the scene initially in 1995, but was listed by the USA and the UN as a terrorist group, that engaged in white slavery and drug trafficking. By 1997, Paul Gelbhard, US representative to the Balkans was quoted as saying the KLA was without question a terrorist group. However the next year it was quietly removed from the US State Department terrorist list and from a small  band, grew enormously with funding, arms and munitions believed to have been provided by the CIA. This at the same time the State Department began to fear for the safety of its diplomats in Albania and with a KLA assassination plot uncovered against Secretary of Defense Cohen.

The likely reason for the reversal was the rise of Slobodan Milosovic, an undistinguished communist party functionary, who was elected President of the Yugoslav Federal Republic in 1997 on a one line platform of protecting the Serbs and the Serbian autonomy of Kosovo. After Tito died in 1980, the USA and western european nations, including specifically Germany all had hopes of a western friendly and western oriented Balkan. With Milosovic that was not to be. Ibrahim Rugova, the elected president of Kosovo denied knowledge of the KLA until after it was clear he could not control them and could only hope to follow along. The KLA sought an open armed conflict with Serbia, which Rugova did not, and with the backing of the USA under the guise of NATO, KLA suddenly emerged as the "freedom fighters" for Greater Albania, a notion along the lines of Hitlers "Gross Deutchland".

What is little talked about  in the press these days is the information that the KLA had direct links to Al Queda and Osama bin Laden, apparently no longer newsworthy after 1998. And although the so-called International Tribunal of the Hague to prosecute war crimes keeps calling for Serb, Croat and Montenegren army officers, they seem to have developed a blind spot about the ethnic cleansing carried out by the KLA.
RadgeJougal

That's ye telt, Iainmohr!

"What is little talked about  in the press these days is the information that the KLA had direct links to Al Queda and Osama bin Laden, apparently no longer newsworthy after 1998"

I heard Dave Coull had links to Brechin, but he denies it.  Laughing
Red Justice

In allowing analogies between Kosovo independence and the situation here in the Celtic countries it is stark that the British government are all willing to see it right for there to be freedom for Kosovo but not for Scotland, Wales, Cornwall or Isle of Man.

If partition (North Kosovo wants to stay with Serbia) is wrong in Kosovo, why is it correct in Ireland?

It seems to the British themselves it can be seen as acceptable for some to divide or partition a country but not viewed as acceptable to do so by others elsewhere.

What is clear my television is switched off to British propaganda over domestic or international matters and long may it continue that way.
William_Cleland

RFM wrote:
To iainmhor,

The comparison of Kosovo with Northern Ireland is not even remotely close....


Really? Kosovo i Metohija as it was then called first emerged on the map in the aftermath of WWII as a province of Serbia with borders that were drawn pretty much on a whim by Tito and co. Like Northern Ireland then it is a 20th century creation with borders that were drawn for primarily demographic reasons to create a statelet in which a relatively recent immigrant minority population (in historical terms) in the context of the larger "ancient nation" formed a solid majority. Kosovo only started to gain meaningful autonomy as recently as the 60s and 70s in what most definitely represented a de facto partition of Serbia. The anger over that is what later helped to fuel the rise of Slobodan Milosevic.

http://grayfalcon.blogspot.com/20...an-be-no-partition-of-serbia.html

To grasp how daft it is to talk about a separate Kosovar nation, people maybe need to realise that just about every single placename in Kosovo is of Serbian origin. Kosovo i Metohija is Serbian for [Plain of the] Blackbirds and The Churchlands for example. The Albanians simply modified the Serbian name a bit to make it better fit their language phonetically by calling it Kosova. The same happened with the names of most of the towns and cities.
Cymro

At the end of the day regardless of who the KLA where and why they where fighting, Scotland at the moment does not have a majority wanting indepedence, whereas Kosovo does. That doesnt make them braver than "us", merely lucky that at last (regardless of where they may end up in the future) has got what the majority wanted.
RFM

To WIlliam Cleland:

The Vilayet of Kosovo was created by the Ottomans from the Kingdom of Serbia in 1389 after the battle on the plains of the blackbirds (ravens actually, eating the dead). Although the Serbs lost, it became from that time forward, an enclave for converts to Islam from the Slavs, but as an automonous region within the Serbian Kingdom.

Northern Ireland has its origins in the reign of William of Orange, seventeenth century, to protect the Scots and English settlers who wanted partition and separation from Ireland. It became, and still remains a part of the British Empire, now known as the UK.

The essential differences are found not only in their origin, but in their historical accommodation. The Ottomans governed indirectly by allowing regions to choose their own governors and holding those governors responsible for what ever happened under their control. Northern Ireland was never governed by Ireland after William of Orange, and its laws and administration comes directly from Westminister since then.

Kosovo never gained or achieved "meaningful" or any other kind of autonomy, if by that you mean Islamic government. Enver Hoxa, dictator of Albania, was plagued with nationalist, anti-communist movements, armed, equipped and inspired by America and England. Tito on the other hand understood that the Nazi occupation had awakened and inspired nationalist and separatist dreams in Yugoslava, which he dealt with by rapid, but not ruthless, suppression. Tito knew better than anybody that religion was the flag around which the separatist call to arms was proclaimed, and went to great lengths to pacify the Islamic majority in Kosovo.

But if we want to talk of "meaningful" autonomy, what about Texas, in the good old USA which always raises the claim to the right of succession, or South Korea, or Macedonia, or Greece, or Cyprus, or even the former DDR?

To Cyro;

There was never a majority of Islamists in Kosovo who wanted succession and independence; that is the western propaganda put out to justify the American intervention under the guise of NATO. Ibrahim Rugova, the elected president at that time was very clear that the majority of people, Serb and Muslim simply wanted to live in peace. It was the KLA that turned up in 1989 that sought armed confrontation and began by killing Serb policemen and bombing police stations. The result was war, death to hundreds of thousands of Muslim, Serbs and Montengrens.
When Madeline Albright, Secretary of  State at that time was asked how America could justify the deaths of so many children in Iraq due to the Iraq sanctions,(more than died in Hiroshima), her answer was it was a small price to pay. She also saw nothing wrong with the genocide in Rawanda, but where Kosovo and the KLA was concerned she was a source of embarassment in the UN by her constant demands for unleashing the American war machine.
William_Cleland

RFM wrote:
To WIlliam Cleland:

The Vilayet of Kosovo was created by the Ottomans from the Kingdom of Serbia in 1389 after the battle on the plains of the blackbirds (ravens actually, eating the dead). Although the Serbs lost, it became from that time forward, an enclave for converts to Islam from the Slavs, but as an automonous region within the Serbian Kingdom.


Nice try. There was certainly a vilayet centred on what is today Kosovo but it was created in 1864 and the borders extended significantly beyond those of today's Kosovo just as the province of Ulster was nine counties rather than six prior to the formation of Northern Ireland but to an even greater extent. Beyond that your history is a bit wonky. There was no Serbian kingdom from 1459 to 1804. The only part of today's Serbia that was outside of Ottoman control for a significant portion of that period was Vojvodina, which was under Austrian control and was settled by Serbs from what is today Kosovo during the so called Great Migration in 1690 when the Serbs backed a failed Austrian invasion and suffered terribly in the aftermath. The Albanians then started moving in to fill the void Flight of the Earls and Plantation of Ulster style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Serbian_Migrations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenije_III_%C4%8Carnojevi%C4%87
RFM

To William Cleland,

Nope, not at all. I guess it is a mistake to use Wikipedia as an authority for anything critical, but since that is your source, read the contrasting views about the history of the Kingdom of Serbia (the modern state of 1881) and its medieval forerunner:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia
William_Cleland

That the best you can do? There are plenty of other sources on stuff like the Great Migration of 1690 besides wikipedia.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-43574/Serbia

The greatest of these revolts took place in 1690, when Serbs rose in support of an Austrian invasion. The Habsburg forces, unable to sustain their advance, retreated back across the Sava, leaving the native population seriously exposed to Turkish reprisals. In 1691 Archbishop Arsenije III Crnojevic of Pec led a migration of 30,000–40,000 families from “Old Serbia” and southern Bosnia across the Danube and Sava. There they were settled and became the basis of the Austrian Militärgrenze, or Military Frontier. (The Slavic name for the region, Vojna Krajina, was used 300 years later in the title given to the areas of Croatia that local Serb majorities attempted to claim for Serbia following the secession of Croatia from Yugoslavia.) Also dating from the time of the great migration of 1691 was the gradual conversion of Kosovo-Metohija into a predominantly Albanian region, as Albanians filled the space left by the displaced Serbs.
RFM

So?
Dave Coull

Cymro wrote "Scotland at the moment does not have a majority wanting indepedence, whereas Kosovo does".

You have no proof of either of these statements.

There is plenty of evidence that a lot of the Albanian majority in Kosovo want Union with Albania in a Greater Albanian state, with independence being merely their second choice. Most of the Kosovo Serbs, of course, want Kosovo to remain linked with Serbia. I bet if you put these two alternatives, as well as independence, to the vote in a referendum, only a minority would vote for an independent Kosovo.

As for the claim that Scotland does not have a majority wanting independence, look, I know I'm getting a wee bit absent-minded in my old age, so just remind me, when was the referendum held?
William_Cleland

RFM wrote:
So?


The biggest problem with modern day Serbian nationalism as should be obvious from the Encyclopedia Britannica quote is that they wanted to have it both ways on the question of "ancient nations". If the old pre-1881 Austrian era Krajina in Croatia belonged to them for demographic reasons then they had no right to expect to maintain control of Kosovo. The mentality that fueled Milosevic's regime was that Serbia is wherever Serbs live and bury their dead. Personally I have no great problem with independence for Kosovo and think the approach used by the West in recognizing Tito's six republic borders as fixed international frontiers because of the post-1945 notions of Europe's borders being fixed and permanent was a catastrophic mistake.

In the early 90s, when Lord Carrington proposed that all six republics should effectively secede and gain international recognition, within Tito's frontier that had been drawn on a whim by an unaccountable totalitarian regime but were based at least in part on ancient historical borders, the deal being offered to Milosevic was that he would get to keep Kosovo but had to give up dreams of a Greater Serbia stretching out across Bosnia and into parts of Croatia. That was a very high risk strategy. It could work quite well with Slovenia where there was a homogeneous population, but it was extremely dubious in the case of Croatia because of the Krajina question and the legacy of the Ustashe and completely insane where Bosnia and Herzegovina was concerned given most of the population there wanted to be part of either Serbia or Croatia if Yugoslavia disintegrated and greatly feared future Muslim domination given the way the demographics were heading. The post-WWI League of Nations sort of approach based on redrawing borders based on local plebiscites and mutual recognition of minority rights would probably have been a better way to go than an "ancient nations" sort of approach, in my opinion. The intervention in and recognition of Kosovo appears to be a belated way of finally saying, "Oops!".
Cymro

Quote:
To Cyro;

There was never a majority of Islamists in Kosovo who wanted succession and independence; that is the western propaganda put out to justify the American intervention under the guise of NATO. Ibrahim Rugova, the elected president at that time was very clear that the majority of people, Serb and Muslim simply wanted to live in peace. It was the KLA that turned up in 1989 that sought armed confrontation and began by killing Serb policemen and bombing police stations. The result was war, death to hundreds of thousands of Muslim, Serbs and Montengrens.
When Madeline Albright, Secretary of  State at that time was asked how America could justify the deaths of so many children in Iraq due to the Iraq sanctions,(more than died in Hiroshima), her answer was it was a small price to pay. She also saw nothing wrong with the genocide in Rawanda, but where Kosovo and the KLA was concerned she was a source of embarassment in the UN by her constant demands for unleashing the American war machine.


Sorry, I'm lost. I'm with you as far as most Serbs and Muslims wanted to live in peace. I'm also with you in terms of stating the actions taken by the KLA against Serbian forces - i.e. it wasn't a one way street with the Serbs being the only bad ones, however on the 17th of February 2008 most of the population of Kosovo didn't wish to remain a part of Serbia and where celebrating their independence from Serbia. Whether or not this is a step on the road to unifing with Albania, this situation they are in now is because of the will of the majority. Scotland on the otherhand is still a part of the Union because of the will of the majority so there is no point in seeing Kosovars as being braver than Scots. Just further down the road in terms of constitutional change.
RFM

To Cymro,

Well that is exactly the problem. How do we know what the people of Kosovo want? Since June 13, 1999, Kosovo has been run by appointed adminstrators, Brazilian, Danes, Germans, Americans, etc. The last elected president, Ibrahim Rugova, adopted a policy of passive resistance, accomodation and compromise. He had to flee for his life to an American airbase in Germany and now lives in exile in Italy (July, 1999-Jan. 2006) Note well the dates of his presidency, they overlap the UN-NATO appointed administrators who were really running the country. It is also worthy of note that the prime minister of Kosovo during Rugova's presidency was Bujar Bukoshi who ruled from the safe distance and loving care of Germany. In plain words, the people's will as expressed by their last somewhat free election (under the guidance of America) was peace, accomodation and compromise. Since then foriegners have been running Kosovo, arming and supplying the KLA in case anyone had  or has different ideas. (Remember the assassination attempt on Rogova just before he fled).

This state of affairs should be an embarrassment to any nation that proclaims democratic freedom and values. If an armed group of thugs, supplied by Germany and America was running Scotland, attempting to kill off elected leaders,  under the control of a foreign governor appointed for the good of the Scots people, who with a straight face could say the Scots have decided anything about what they want?
Cymro

RFM wrote:
To Cymro,

Well that is exactly the problem. How do we know what the people of Kosovo want? Since June 13, 1999, Kosovo has been run by appointed adminstrators, Brazilian, Danes, Germans, Americans, etc. The last elected president, Ibrahim Rugova, adopted a policy of passive resistance, accomodation and compromise. He had to flee for his life to an American airbase in Germany and now lives in exile in Italy (July, 1999-Jan. 2006) Note well the dates of his presidency, they overlap the UN-NATO appointed administrators who were really running the country. It is also worthy of note that the prime minister of Kosovo during Rugova's presidency was Bujar Bukoshi who ruled from the safe distance and loving care of Germany. In plain words, the people's will as expressed by their last somewhat free election (under the guidance of America) was peace, accomodation and compromise. Since then foriegners have been running Kosovo, arming and supplying the KLA in case anyone had  or has different ideas. (Remember the assassination attempt on Rogova just before he fled).

This state of affairs should be an embarrassment to any nation that proclaims democratic freedom and values. If an armed group of thugs, supplied by Germany and America was running Scotland, attempting to kill off elected leaders,  under the control of a foreign governor appointed for the good of the Scots people, who with a straight face could say the Scots have decided anything about what they want?


Well it's clearly more complicated than I thought then. I was under the impression that NATO where disarming the KLA after they aentered the province, that's certainly one of the responsibilities my wifes cousin was doin there with the Argyll and Sutherlands (in between getting absolutly wrecked on the local Grapa). Was this a lie then?

I'm personally all for the NATO action taken against the Sebian forces in Kosovo and would hope that the claims that the KLA where also being disarmed would be true.

Clearly it's still had huge political and secterian problem since then though. Both sides guilty of attacks on eachother.
RFM

To Cymro;

The word "lie" is an emotionally loaded word that implies several things. I would think it is clear from the history of Korea, Viet Nam and Iraq that the western nations have their own ideas about pursuing their best interests. They merely cloak it with an overlay of emotionally loaded propaganda, remember "Operation Freedom" in Iraq.

That should not prevent any reasonably intelligent person from assessing the facts as they stand without embellishment one way or the other. It is an error to blame "both sides" however; the true obscenity iss that the people of that area find themselves under the dominance of modern warlords who offer death and destruction for any reason, or no reason at all. They want to live as much as you do.
RFM

To WIlliam Cleland

Although it is a part of the conventional and accepted wisdom to portray events in the Balkans as having originated at Paris in 1919, even a casual knowledge of the history of the Balkans shows that is not true at all. See: CL Sultzberger "A long Row of Candles" for instance.

If you think this is all about Serb chauvanism, let me lay a quote on you right out of your favorite source, Wikipedia:

"Mustafa Kruja, the Prime Minister of Albania, was in Kosovo in June 1942, and at a meeting with the Albanian leaders of Kosovo, he said: "We should endeavor to ensure that the Serb population of Kosovo be – the area be cleansed of them and all Serbs who had been living there for centuries should be termed colonialists and sent to concentration camps in Albania. The Serb settlers should be killed."[9][10]"
William_Cleland

I've just been talking about the Great Migration of the 1690s so I don't think I need any lectures about history not starting in 1919. Smile I know all about what the Balli Kombetar got up to. Not sure how that is in any way relevant to whether Kosovo has certain parallels with Northern Ireland. Both sides committing atrocities at various points tends to be typical of most ethnic conflicts.
Cymro

RFM wrote:
To Cymro;

The word "lie" is an emotionally loaded word that implies several things. I would think it is clear from the history of Korea, Viet Nam and Iraq that the western nations have their own ideas about pursuing their best interests. They merely cloak it with an overlay of emotionally loaded propaganda, remember "Operation Freedom" in Iraq.

That should not prevent any reasonably intelligent person from assessing the facts as they stand without embellishment one way or the other. It is an error to blame "both sides" however; the true obscenity iss that the people of that area find themselves under the dominance of modern warlords who offer death and destruction for any reason, or no reason at all. They want to live as much as you do.


I'll be honest here, as I think you're over complicating thigs. This is Kosovo we're talking about here, not Vietnam, not Korea, and not Iraq. I remeber vividly seeing the attorcities caused by the Serbian Forces and Paramilitairies in Kosovo. I'm not naive enough to think they where the only ones doing this though. I'd argue unlike Iraq, Kosovo was largely instigated by the media attention focused on the Balkans as a result of the previous few years actions in Yugoslavia. People where simply unwilling to allow another Srebrenica to take place in Europes fringes.

My wifes cousin was one of the first to be sent into Kosovo after the airstrikes. His main 'job' was to disarm both groups and seek intelligence on where armed dumps where hidden etc (that was usually done after a fair few grapas). So either they where arming the groups, or they where disarming them. Maybe he was just helping them upgrade their old stuff? I am being tongue in cheek now, as I've not had any evidence off you that they where actually rearming the KLA, just you suggesting because of the likes of Vietnam and Korea (remember the UK didn't fight in Nam).
thebauer

[quote="William_Cleland"]That the best you can do? There are plenty of other sources on stuff like the Great Migration of 1690 besides wikipedia.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-43574/Serbia

[i]The greatest of these revolts took place in 1690, when Serbs rose in support of an Austrian invasion. The Habsburg forces, unable to sustain their advance, retreated back across the Sava, leaving the native population seriously exposed to Turkish reprisals. In 1691 Archbishop Arsenije III Crnojevic of Pec led a migration of 30,000–40,000 families from “Old Serbia” and southern Bosnia across the Danube and Sava. There they were settled and became the basis of the Austrian Militärgrenze, or Military Frontier. (The Slavic name for the region, Vojna Krajina, was used 300 years later in the title given to the areas of Croatia that local Serb majorities attempted to claim for Serbia following the secession of Croatia from Yugoslavia.) Also dating from the time of the great migration of 1691 was the gradual conversion of Kosovo-Metohija into a predominantly Albanian region, as Albanians filled the space left by the displaced Serbs.[/i][/quote]

ah yes, 1690. must have been something in the air that year, idiots still squabble over idotic battles that happened and idiotic amount of years ago.idiots all round.
RFM

To cymro;

Actually the UK forces were in VietNam:

207 Squadron Royal Air Force Association: Maintaining the tradition, fellowship and history of this famous bomber squadron (1916-1984).

656 Squadron Association: An active Squadron, from Burma in 1943 to UK today.

The point I was trying to make was that the political history of VietNam was all made up out of whole cloth by France and America, even in the face of directly contradictory news reports.
RFM

To William Cleland;

On that point we agree.
Cymro

RFM wrote:
To cymro;

Actually the UK forces were in VietNam:

207 Squadron Royal Air Force Association: Maintaining the tradition, fellowship and history of this famous bomber squadron (1916-1984).

656 Squadron Association: An active Squadron, from Burma in 1943 to UK today.

The point I was trying to make was that the political history of VietNam was all made up out of whole cloth by France and America, even in the face of directly contradictory news reports.


huh? Sorry your bits about UK forces are unclear. Are you saying that they where in Vietnam during the American war in Vietnam, history teaches us differently.

Remeber though this is Kosovo in this thread and I'm still waiting for proof of rearming the KLA by the Brits and others.
RFM

To cymro,

The KLA credits itself with launching hostilities against the Serbs in Kosovo, in the name of national liberation, in 1997-1998. In 1999, UN appointed administration began under the exclusive control of UN and NATO.
"In 1999, UN Security Council Resolution 1244 placed Kosovo under transitional UN administration pending a determination of Kosovo's future status. This Resolution entrusted the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) with sweeping powers to govern Kosovo, but also directed UNMIK to establish interim institutions of self-governance." Wikepedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Kosovo_War_.281996-1999.29

The head of the KLA at that time was one Hashim Thaci:
"Thaci is known to have extensive criminal links. During the period of time when Thaci was head of the Kosovo Liberation Army, it was reported by the Washington Times to be financing its activities by trafficking heroin and cocaine into western Europe.[3] While Thaci was head of the Democratic Party of Kosovo, the party regularly used violence and intimidation of political rivals to maintain political control. This was done in order to protect criminal enterprises that depended upon cooperation from friendly local authorities.[4] According to Can Karpat, writing for AxisGlobe.com,

   Thaci is also known as the organiser of the Drenica-Group. The group controlled between 10-15 per cent of criminal activities in Kosovo in connection with smuggling of arms, stolen cars, oil and cigarettes as well as with prostitution, the establishment and maintenance of connections with the Albanian, Czech and Macedonian mafia. Other than that, Thaci’s sister is married to Sejdija Bajrush, one of the leaders of the notorious Albanian mafia.[5]"  Again the source is Wikepedia and also  Google.

However as early as 1988, the press in europe was reporting that it was German and American intelligence that was training and equipping the KLA:
"Nevertheless, by February 1998, the KLA had been removed from the United States State Department's terrorism list [3]. According to reliable sources, KLA representatives had already met with American, British, and Swiss intelligence agencies in 1996, and possibly "several years earlier".[11] In the same year, a British weekly newspaper, The European, stated that "German civil and military intelligence services have been involved in training and equipping the rebels with the aim of cementing German influence in the Balkan area."[12] Former senior adviser to the German parliament Matthias Küntzel proved later on that his country secret diplomacy had been instrumental in helping the KLA since its creation.[13] According to The Sunday Times, "American intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia" [4]. The source is WIkepedia, Kosovo Liberation Army.

Subsequently, as of 2002, WIkepedia says this about the KLA:
"The KLA legacy remains powerful within Kosovo. Its former members still play a major role in Kosovar politics; its former political head Hashim Thaci is now the leader of the Democratic Party of Kosovo and the prime minister of Kosovo since January 2008, one of the province's leading political opposition parties. Ramush Haradinaj, a former KLA regional leader, served briefly as Prime Minister of Kosovo before he turned himself in to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) at The Hague to stand trial on war crimes charges [7]. The KLA's former military head, Agim Çeku, is the current Prime Minister of Kosovo. This has caused some controversy in Serbia, as Belgrade regards him as a war criminal, though he was never indicted."

At all time while the KLA was operating. and still operates in Kosovo, Kosovo has been under UN-NATO administration. It would be difficult to explain how and why that was permitted without the direct connivance of the administration. Arms and munitions would have to come into the country through UN-NATO controlled ports and entrances. They don't sell that kind of stuff at Wal-Mart.

If you have some doubts about UK participation in Viet Nam, look at this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_veteran:
" a footnote; Much conjecture has arisen concerning the British SAS fighting in Vietnam. Successive British Governments have repeatedly denied the involvement of British troops anywhere in the Vietnam theatre of operations. These denials are now looking decidedly shabby on two fronts. It is now common knowledge that some Royal Navy surface vessels and Royal Navy personnel were in Vietnam and trained Americans to use the fast attack craft that were used extensively on the Mekong Delta and other inland waterways. The second part is that there is now no doubt that an elite unit of British soldiers fought in Vietnam from 1965 to 1967. It does however seem that this unit was not from the British SAS but an equally well trained and elite unit from the UK. Uncorroborated though compelling evidence gleaned from all sides of the conflict, point to this unit carrying out operations against both Viet Cong irregulars and regular North Vietnamese Army units with a very good record of success. Although this unit was based with the Australian and New Zealand SAS at Nui Dat as well as the joint USA/South Vietnamese base at Bien Hoa, it appears to have been a fully autonomous unit, carrying out its own operations.

There is also considerable hearsay evidence that this unit was involved in the infamous CIA led ‘Operation Phoenix’ campaign, and is credited with over 300 ‘kills’ in ‘Operation Phoenix’ during their time in Vietnam."
William_Cleland

thebauer wrote:

ah yes, 1690. must have been something in the air that year, idiots still squabble over idotic battles that happened and idiotic amount of years ago.idiots all round.


I have no problem with that sentiment as long as you have the same standpoint about constantly bringing up the Wars of Independence and 1314 and singing about it before Scotland internationals etc. Before anyone thinks I am doing an agentmancuso and that I am about to draw some parallel between Alex Salmond and Arkan Smile I've met plenty of SNP supporters who have a modern sort of civic nationalism based identity and are not primarily motivated by having seen Braveheart.
Cymro

RFM wrote:
To cymro,

The KLA credits itself with launching hostilities against the Serbs in Kosovo, in the name of national liberation, in 1997-1998. In 1999, UN appointed administration began under the exclusive control of UN and NATO.
"In 1999, UN Security Council Resolution 1244 placed Kosovo under transitional UN administration pending a determination of Kosovo's future status. This Resolution entrusted the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) with sweeping powers to govern Kosovo, but also directed UNMIK to establish interim institutions of self-governance." Wikepedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Kosovo_War_.281996-1999.29

The head of the KLA at that time was one Hashim Thaci:
"Thaci is known to have extensive criminal links. During the period of time when Thaci was head of the Kosovo Liberation Army, it was reported by the Washington Times to be financing its activities by trafficking heroin and cocaine into western Europe.[3] While Thaci was head of the Democratic Party of Kosovo, the party regularly used violence and intimidation of political rivals to maintain political control. This was done in order to protect criminal enterprises that depended upon cooperation from friendly local authorities.[4] According to Can Karpat, writing for AxisGlobe.com,

   Thaci is also known as the organiser of the Drenica-Group. The group controlled between 10-15 per cent of criminal activities in Kosovo in connection with smuggling of arms, stolen cars, oil and cigarettes as well as with prostitution, the establishment and maintenance of connections with the Albanian, Czech and Macedonian mafia. Other than that, Thaci’s sister is married to Sejdija Bajrush, one of the leaders of the notorious Albanian mafia.[5]"  Again the source is Wikepedia and also  Google.

However as early as 1988, the press in europe was reporting that it was German and American intelligence that was training and equipping the KLA:
"Nevertheless, by February 1998, the KLA had been removed from the United States State Department's terrorism list [3]. According to reliable sources, KLA representatives had already met with American, British, and Swiss intelligence agencies in 1996, and possibly "several years earlier".[11] In the same year, a British weekly newspaper, The European, stated that "German civil and military intelligence services have been involved in training and equipping the rebels with the aim of cementing German influence in the Balkan area."[12] Former senior adviser to the German parliament Matthias Küntzel proved later on that his country secret diplomacy had been instrumental in helping the KLA since its creation.[13] According to The Sunday Times, "American intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia" [4]. The source is WIkepedia, Kosovo Liberation Army.

Subsequently, as of 2002, WIkepedia says this about the KLA:
"The KLA legacy remains powerful within Kosovo. Its former members still play a major role in Kosovar politics; its former political head Hashim Thaci is now the leader of the Democratic Party of Kosovo and the prime minister of Kosovo since January 2008, one of the province's leading political opposition parties. Ramush Haradinaj, a former KLA regional leader, served briefly as Prime Minister of Kosovo before he turned himself in to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) at The Hague to stand trial on war crimes charges [7]. The KLA's former military head, Agim Çeku, is the current Prime Minister of Kosovo. This has caused some controversy in Serbia, as Belgrade regards him as a war criminal, though he was never indicted."

At all time while the KLA was operating. and still operates in Kosovo, Kosovo has been under UN-NATO administration. It would be difficult to explain how and why that was permitted without the direct connivance of the administration. Arms and munitions would have to come into the country through UN-NATO controlled ports and entrances. They don't sell that kind of stuff at Wal-Mart.

If you have some doubts about UK participation in Viet Nam, look at this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_veteran:
" a footnote; Much conjecture has arisen concerning the British SAS fighting in Vietnam. Successive British Governments have repeatedly denied the involvement of British troops anywhere in the Vietnam theatre of operations. These denials are now looking decidedly shabby on two fronts. It is now common knowledge that some Royal Navy surface vessels and Royal Navy personnel were in Vietnam and trained Americans to use the fast attack craft that were used extensively on the Mekong Delta and other inland waterways. The second part is that there is now no doubt that an elite unit of British soldiers fought in Vietnam from 1965 to 1967. It does however seem that this unit was not from the British SAS but an equally well trained and elite unit from the UK. Uncorroborated though compelling evidence gleaned from all sides of the conflict, point to this unit carrying out operations against both Viet Cong irregulars and regular North Vietnamese Army units with a very good record of success. Although this unit was based with the Australian and New Zealand SAS at Nui Dat as well as the joint USA/South Vietnamese base at Bien Hoa, it appears to have been a fully autonomous unit, carrying out its own operations.

There is also considerable hearsay evidence that this unit was involved in the infamous CIA led ‘Operation Phoenix’ campaign, and is credited with over 300 ‘kills’ in ‘Operation Phoenix’ during their time in Vietnam."


Sorry RFM you've bored me here. Are you Dave Coull in disguise? All I aksed you for was evidence of the KLA being armed by the British Forces and others SINCE the Kosovo war. I don't care about 1988 or anyother ytear. I don't care about ciminal links to KLA people as that would be bloody obvious.

I can tell you that my wifes cousin was one of the first sent into Kosovo after the air attacks with the Argyll and Sutherlands. One of his main duties in Pristina and some other area was the disarming of militias on both sides. Now either he was lying or not. Which is it?

So some people with KLA links are now in power. Good for them. It's all part of taking people out of paramilitarism as far as I'm concerened. Under the UN Mandate those in power would have to refrain from attacking the otherside as they have done. It's the same sort of thing as has been seen in Northern Ireland too. People who used to be linked to the paramilitaries now playing a full and active part in peacetime politics.

I don't want another essay, just an answer.
Dave Coull

Cymro wrote "Sorry RFM you've bored me here. Are you Dave Coull in disguise?" and also "I don't want another essay, just an answer".

I just happened to glance and notice my own name there. I'm not even sure what Cymro's question was, or what RFM's answer was, because I haven't read their exchange in full. So at present I can't make any comment on it, except to say that there can be occasions when the only way to give a proper answer is to write an essay. If that bores some folk, okay, so some folk will be bored. Whether or not this was one of those occasions, I can't say, not having read Cymro's and RFM's exchange in full. But as for "Are you Dave Coull in disguise?", that's an easy one, I can answer that! Dave Coull NEVER uses disguise. As quite a few folk here on this forum are well aware from their own personal experience, Dave Coull is far too conceited ever to conceal the fact that he is Dave Coull.
Cymro

Fair enough, it was only ment to be a joke given both of you like to take the long way round in an answer ( I thought I was bad at it) and you both quote simmilarly- i.e. you don't use the quote bit which would make reading your comments a hell of a lot easier.
Aventinian

Dave Coull wrote:
I can answer that! Dave Coull NEVER uses disguise. As quite a few folk here on this forum are well aware from their own personal experience, Dave Coull is far too conceited ever to conceal the fact that he is Dave Coull.


This forum never fails to bring a smile to my face.
RFM

To cyro;

I guess Dave Coull has said it better than I can; if reading bores you and you find it difficult to maintain a track of thoughts about what you read, I wish I had known that before I took the time to answer your request.

I too was in the army, and I knew about everything within 300 yards of my position, wherever it was, and absolutely nothing beyond that distance. The military has its own propaganda machinery to "boost the morale" of the troops in every country, UK included. Which has almost never relies on truth or fact.
It was only after I got home and did some of that boring reading from newspapers, books and personal accounts that I began to understand what I had been involved in. Your wife's cousin would probably agree with that, if he is out of the service.

Dave Coull is perfectly capable of looking after himself and he certainly needs no help from me.
Cymro

RFM wrote:
To cyro;

I guess Dave Coull has said it better than I can; if reading bores you and you find it difficult to maintain a track of thoughts about what you read, I wish I had known that before I took the time to answer your request.

I too was in the army, and I knew about everything within 300 yards of my position, wherever it was, and absolutely nothing beyond that distance. The military has its own propaganda machinery to "boost the morale" of the troops in every country, UK included. Which has almost never relies on truth or fact.
It was only after I got home and did some of that boring reading from newspapers, books and personal accounts that I began to understand what I had been involved in. Your wife's cousin would probably agree with that, if he is out of the service.

Dave Coull is perfectly capable of looking after himself and he certainly needs no help from me.


Firstly, I have no problem in reading thanks. Just found your post very boring and scattered - no structure to your argument and didnt go in a particular direction. You had a fact and by god you where going to put it in whether it was relevent or not. Also the way you choose to quote others before replying makes things unclear. My reading though is tip top (when I can be arsed) thanks.

He is out of the armed forced now and glad to be gone. I've heard his stories from Kosovo (which he loved, great people) and Northern Ireland (which he hated, all arseholes in his opinion). Now, he's not stupid so like yourself would have been happy to take things witha  pinch of salt. But his work, along with others included searching for wweapons and destrying them.

Where you in Kosovo then?
RFM

Yes I suppose I am eager to make the point that the KLA was and still is an internationally known bunch of thugs and drug dealers. Their boss Hashim Thaci is now running things in the new state of Kosovo. It is enough to make any decent person vomit. Now you might see that as demilitarizing the patriotic resistance, but let us not fool our selves; those people have no regard for anyone or anything. If you do not think so, take a good hard look at the kind of people who deal drugs and kill people right there in the UK. It is the people of Kosovo who will suffer the most under that crew.

No I was never in Kosovo during the 1998-1999 war, my army service was 1961-1964, US Army. Too old.
Cymro

RFM wrote:
Yes I suppose I am eager to make the point that the KLA was and still is an internationally known bunch of thugs and drug dealers. Their boss Hashim Thaci is now running things in the new state of Kosovo. It is enough to make any decent person vomit. Now you might see that as demilitarizing the patriotic resistance, but let us not fool our selves; those people have no regard for anyone or anything. If you do not think so, take a good hard look at the kind of people who deal drugs and kill people right there in the UK. It is the people of Kosovo who will suffer the most under that crew.

No I was never in Kosovo during the 1998-1999 war, my army service was 1961-1964, US Army. Too old.


So you don't know whether the KLA where being rearmed by the British Army then. Your 'experiences' of these actions consist of the web and a history in the US Armed forces.
RFM

You really ought to get into the habit of trying to read, cymro.

If you go back to that article I posted for your edification, the one you dismissed as "boring" and an "long essay" you did not need, you would see that the source is given: Tim Judah, Yale University Press, says so. He is not alone as those articles were picked up by Reuters and UPA.

You think the British army stands on the street corners passing out weapons to the KLA?
England had troops in Viet Nam, you apparently don't believe that; of course they denied having anything to do with CIA rendition flights until the kidnapped people started filing lawsuits and the story could no longer be denied. Sticking one's head in the sand in response to unpleasant news rarely advances understanding.
William_Cleland

RFM wrote:
Yes I suppose I am eager to make the point that the KLA was and still is an internationally known bunch of thugs and drug dealers. Their boss Hashim Thaci is now running things in the new state of Kosovo. It is enough to make any decent person vomit. Now you might see that as demilitarizing the patriotic resistance, but let us not fool our selves; those people have no regard for anyone or anything. If you do not think so, take a good hard look at the kind of people who deal drugs and kill people right there in the UK. It is the people of Kosovo who will suffer the most under that crew.


Worth bearing in mind that the Albanians in Kosovo only started to turn to the likes of Thaci when the West failed to back the pacifist Ibrahim Rugova's independence declaration in 1991 (worth bearing in mind that the Carrington peace plan at that point carried the implicit message to Milosevic that he could have Kosovo if he gave up the mainly Serb areas in Bosnia and Croatia) and totally overlooked the Kosovo issue at Dayton. Even after the NATO intervention Rugova was able to beat the KLA backed candidates in the elections that were held up until his death from lung cancer a couple of years ago.
RFM

Abolutely correct Mr.Cleland.

So much for western style democratic values.
Cymro

RFM wrote:
You really ought to get into the habit of trying to read, cymro.

If you go back to that article I posted for your edification, the one you dismissed as "boring" and an "long essay" you did not need, you would see that the source is given: Tim Judah, Yale University Press, says so. He is not alone as those articles were picked up by Reuters and UPA.

You think the British army stands on the street corners passing out weapons to the KLA?
England had troops in Viet Nam, you apparently don't believe that; of course they denied having anything to do with CIA rendition flights until the kidnapped people started filing lawsuits and the story could no longer be denied. Sticking one's head in the sand in response to unpleasant news rarely advances understanding.


England? Or would that be the UK? You are the first person I've ever heard say that the UK had troops in Vietnam. I know France had given it was a colony, then they pull out and to over simplise things the US went in with the whole war thing.

I'm not burying my head in any sand, I havent seen any proof to prove this point you are making. In terms of Rendition Flights, are you talking about Diego Garcia here? (See what I mean by you bouncing from one 'issue' to another?) This issue to me shows the puppet and the master approach to the relationship between the US and UK these days. The US does what it likes (even on British Territory) and the UK appoligise for knowing Fall about it.

So it a guy published by Yale Press. Ok, still not seen evidence of UK forces arming the KLA since the campaign in the late 90's. I have a person who I know and trust who's gone into indepth tales of disarming both groups in Kosovo. Which am I to believe? A person on the web who can't construct a debate, who makes out I have difficulty in reading and refers to the UK and England as well as hasn't seen active service since the 1960's or a guy who was in Kosovo involved in actual disarming during the time where debating?
RFM

Well cymro,

If it is all a matter of belief, there is no reason to expect that reason and deduction will get me anywhere. I guess that is why they have churches.

Try reading Tim Judah's book, he went to a lot of work to put it together. Other than that I guess you will have to go and root around in Kosovo yourself if you want to be persuaded.

It is kind of humorous to ex-service people that the ones who never served tend to think the military is like television and movies.  It wasn't when I was in and the people coming out now tell me it has not changed.
Cymro

RFM wrote:
Well cymro,

If it is all a matter of belief, there is no reason to expect that reason and deduction will get me anywhere. I guess that is why they have churches.

Try reading Tim Judah's book, he went to a lot of work to put it together. Other than that I guess you will have to go and root around in Kosovo yourself if you want to be persuaded.

It is kind of humorous to ex-service people that the ones who never served tend to think the military is like television and movies.  It wasn't when I was in and the people coming out now tell me it has not changed.


I haven't said it's like television and movies. Again you are bouncing from one to another, is that because you are actually unable to defend the things you're coming out with? I'm talking about a person who saw Active Service within the UK army a lot more recently than you saw active service with the US Army. As far as I'm aware you wouldn't have been sent to Kosovo anyway. He hated being in the Army, but liked Kosovo and what he did there as a whole. Who am I to believe? A crank on the web or a real life person?
RFM

To Cymro,

Believe what ever you want. I have no interest at all in what you choose to believe.

My interest was in pointing you towards some knowledgeable people who have done extensive research in the matter. And probably have much more knowledge about the subject than someone who served in the army for a while.
RadgeJougal

Dave Coull wrote:
Cymro wrote "Sorry RFM you've bored me here. Are you Dave Coull in disguise?" and also "I don't want another essay, just an answer".

....
But as for "Are you Dave Coull in disguise?", that's an easy one, I can answer that! Dave Coull NEVER uses disguise.


Or deodorant!  Laughing
Cymro

RFM wrote:
To Cymro,

Believe what ever you want. I have no interest at all in what you choose to believe.

My interest was in pointing you towards some knowledgeable people who have done extensive research in the matter. And probably have much more knowledge about the subject than someone who served in the army for a while.


Indeed, and that person who served in Kosovo probably has a bit more knoweldge than you on the matter. I'm not interested in defending the UK Army where they've done wrong and have no doubts that across the world they have done and do continue to do wrong. However I don't believe in slagging them off for the sake of slagging them off. I'm afraid you lost any credibility by refering to the UK on a Scottish website as England, and trying to make insinuations about my reading.
RFM

Don't be afraid for my sake.

What has been written is for others to judge about credibility.

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