british brutality in iraq

parkhead_rfb · british brutality in iraq

well well well it seems that the british army have been naughty boys again attacking iraqi teenagers. what problem does the british media have with this? is it that this type of brutality is a moral outrage? do they want prosecutions? no they worry that this will lead to more attacks on british troops, followed up of course with a nice wee report on the great job "our boys" are doing out there.

oh but of course its all a one off, its not like it goes on all the time eh Rolling Eyes

Aventinian

No, it most certainly does not go on all the time and I hope that the people who committed such acts are punished to the full extent of military law as I trust they will.

It is not the British Army that is responsible for this, it is a few twisted individuals.

parkhead_rfb

there speaks a man who has never seen the british state in action first hand. this type of brutality does go on all the time, i believe this is around the third time it has been exposed against the british in iraq already.

azzuri

get a grip parkhead - of course it's individuals.

I'd hardly think given the amount of British soldiers in Iraq that 3 incidents shows a British Army problem.

The big bad British brutal soldiers - that sort of line is wearing thin. What about all of the soldiers who go about their duties impecablly, treat the locals with respect and do their jobs to the best of their ability?

It's not their fault they were sent to Iraq, it's their job ffs! If you are going to blame anyone for this debacle, blame the Government and the few individuals who acted like complete fools. Don't tarnish the rest with the same brush.

parkhead_rfb

so those fellow soldiers who no doubt witnessed this attack went straight to their superiors? no they did not. as for the its their job routine when they take the queens shilling and sign up they know they will do the british states dirty work i have no sympathy for them. some people are incredibly nieve as to how the british state really operates in a war situation.

waterboy · Re: british brutality in iraq

[quote=\"parkhead_rfb\"]well well well it seems that the british army have been naughty boys again attacking iraqi teenagers. what problem does the british media have with this? is it that this type of brutality is a moral outrage? do they want prosecutions? no they worry that this will lead to more attacks on british troops, followed up of course with a nice wee report on the great job \"our boys\" are doing out there.

oh but of course its all a one off, its not like it goes on all the time eh Rolling Eyes

[/quote]
the british troops are well trained to deal with daft wee boys throwing bricks at them, these types were well dealt with in iraq and northern ireland.

i personally would never throw a brick at a group of touring soldiers, you are just asking for a kicking, they got it, hell mend them.

parkhead_rfb

what like bloody sunday? with each post you sure your lack of intelligence more and more.

waterboy

YOU ARE A PRIZE FOOL. every second sentence is bloddy sunday. a worn out record. you do not know it but you are an old firm secterian bigot who excuses their shallow and irrelevent views by squealing \'politics\'. when will you get the message that the good people of scotland have no time for you and your equally sad opposites wearing bowler hats. i\'m just waiting for the old \'it\'s my right to say this\'.

you infuruate me and millions of others in this decent and tolerant country.

parkhead_rfb

decent and tolerant country "your not welcome here"

Laughing

says it all.

please explain why i am sectarian, i also support the people of the basque catalonia and palestine in their calls for self determination is that also "secterian"?

you seem very good at name calling and howling non sense rather than actually debating any issue, if i am so ill informed it would be easy to make me look foolish in debate, no?

Rinty · b

parkhead_rfb

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1708771,00.html

1.15pm update

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man held over British troops 'abuse' video

Staff writers
Monday February 13, 2006

Royal Military Police have arrested a man in connection with video footage of British troops allegedly abusing Iraqi civilians, the Ministry of Defence confirmed today.
He was detained at 8.18pm last night, but officials refused to say where or confirm whether the man was a serving soldier.

An MoD spokesman said: "The RMP investigation into these extremely serious allegations is at very early stage. We can confirm that an arrest has been made in conjunction with this investigation."

He said the RMP would continue gathering evidence before deciding whether to bring the person before a court martial.

Earlier, the Iraqi government today expressed its "deepest concern" over a video that apparently showed British troops attacking defenceless teenagers in Basra.

A spokesman for the prime minister, Ibrahim Jaafari, urged Tony Blair to bring those "responsible to justice immediately" after footage showing the brutal beating by at least eight soldiers was shown across the Arab world.

"Mr Jaafari expresses his deepest concern at the horrific scenes of violence that took place," Bashar al-Naher, the British-based spokesman for the Mr Jaafari, said. "The prime minister urges Tony Blair and the highest levels of the Ministry of Defence to bring those responsible to justice immediately and institute even more stringent measures to monitoring and assessing and make sure such incidents that are so tragic never happen again."

Speaking on the BBC's Today programme, Mr al-Naher said the Iraqi prime minister was grateful to the British government and armed forces for doing "an excellent job" in keeping the peace after Saddam Hussein. But he reiterated that the chief battle was for the "hearts and minds" of Iraqis.

Colonel Tim Collins, a veteran of the conflict, told the programme that Iraqis were right to feel disappointed when the British army failed to keep the very high standards expected of it. He said he strongly believed a more senior officer had been complicit in the beatings by leaving the soldiers unsupervised.

"Someone chose not to step in and deal with that situation who would have seen it and they are clearly not fit to hold that rank," he said. "An officer or senior NCO [non-commissioned officer] more likely, who's either been in this or has failed in his duty because he has failed to deal with it."

He said such incidents were isolated and that British forces were unique in the region by dealing with "petrol bombers and grenade throwers" using plastic shields and batons rather than "lethal force".

The video, taken in early 2004 and obtained by the News of the World, apparently was filmed from a rooftop for fun by a corporal who is heard laughing and urging on his colleagues. It shows the troops repeatedly kicking and punching civilians with batons after seizing them following riots two years ago in the Basra region in which British forces were attacked.

The cameraman is heard laughing and saying: "Oh yes! Oh yes! You're gonna get it. Yes, naughty little boys. You little fuckers, you little fuckers. Die. Ha Ha." Soldiers are shown beating the Iraqis, with one apparently kicking a young man in the genitals as he lay on the ground. A young Iraqi is apparently head-butted by a helmeted soldier and hit in the kidneys. The Iraqi cries: "No, please," as the commentator says in a mocking, childlike, voice: "No, please, don't hurt me." The video also apparently shows an Iraqi corpse being kicked, and, as the man's head is held up to the camera, a soldier sniggers: "He's been a bad motherfucker."

A military spokesman in Basra, Flight Lieutenant Chris Thomas, yesterday reacted to the release of the tape by condemning "all acts of abuse and brutality" by British troops. "We hope that the good relations that the multinational forces have worked very hard to develop won't be adversely affected by this material." He added that the allegations related "to only a tiny number of the 80,000 personnel that have served in Iraq".

parkhead_rfb

http://www.troopsoutmovement.com/

The unvarying message sent out by government and media since the beginning of the conflict has been, as Tony Benn has shrewdly observed, that Ireland is Britain's problem when of course the reality is that Britain is Ireland's problem. But then, as the historian J Bowyer-Bell equally shrewdly observed: "Perception is all". It was a philosophy keenly adopted by Frank Kitson who, in the classic of the time, Low Intensity Operations, stressed the need for the British military in Ireland to "dictate how others saw the essence of the conflict".

But there were then, as there are now, a few people in Britain who would not allow their understanding and view of the conflict to be controlled by either the government or the media. One of them was Aly Renwick, the British soldier who served for a short time in Ireland before becoming a political activist, writer and founder member of TOM. Another was Mary Pearson, another founder member of TOM who has remained an indefatigable campaigner every since.

Ever cheery, she is a familiar face in the North of Ireland, and in common with many of those who joined TOM in its infancy, recalls that it was the events of Bloody Sunday which finally motivated her to become involved in some way in Irish politics. Previously, she says, although she felt a sense of what she calls "emotional support" for the nationalist population, she had little understanding of the political situation, other than a firm belief that interment without trial was wrong.

"Bloody Sunday shocked me to the core" she says. "That armed soldiers would shoot unarmed people in cold blood. I was upset and angry about the British army acting 'in my name'."

The added insult to the deep injury was the handling of the situation by the media. "I watched the initial news flashes on TV" Mary recalls. "It was horrific and showed the raw reality of state murder. But by the evening news, the whole event was sanitised and the blame put on the unarmed protesters who were called bombers and gunmen. I remember crying with sheer anger at the role the media were playing".

Since then, she has worked tirelessly to inform the British people what their successive governments have been up to in Ireland.

azzuri

parkhead_rfb

they still have moral decisions to make though rs, drug dealing would have been a way out of the east end for me but morally i wouldnt do it.

azzuri

of course, drug dealing is exactly the same thing as joining the army parkhead - get real!

so you're saying if you had the option of joining the army, giving yourself and your kids a better life and better career prospects instead of living in a shithole where you're kids will more than likely end up as overweight unfit junkies claiming benefits - you wouldn't do it?

maybe that says more about you than the folk that do! Frankly I'd put my families future above anything else - I'd say that is a moral choice. It's better than letting them live in squalor with no future. Where do you stop with the 'moral choices'? - don't work for a private company because they 'exploit their workers', don't take benefits because you're 'robbing the state', don't pay taxes etc. etc. etc.

These are all moral choices and we have to make them every day - people don't always have an ideal life but you act as though they do and in that situation all of these people choose to go into the army - get real.

People choose the 'least worst' situation - that is life. If someone told you they were going to kill 1 million people or 1 person, and you had to choose which - what would you do? I'm not saying you'd want that 1 person dead, but you'd choose that because it is the 'least worst'.

parkhead_rfb

they are both moral decisions.

in real terms joining the army is a way out of nothing, service people are vastly over represented in terms of homelessness and mental illness.

but morally i wouldnt be able to look my children in the eye if i had been part of a machine which opressed so many other people, i would be ashamed of my own father if he had done the same.

you could go on all day giving me different moral scenarious, those are subjective decisions i am only giving my opinion. for me the opression of other countries in a state uniform is equaitable in moral terms with damaging communities through drugs.

azzuri

as I said before, I think that says more about you than it does about others.

if/when you become a father I imagine you will feel differently.

parkhead_rfb

to me it says i view the oppression of people by foreign powers as morally reprehensible, as i do drug dealing.

Morph

but dont you feel that most of these soldiers have upheld the highest levels of disipline, exept for a few individuals the army has carried out a very good job, it may not be right in being there but its there now and must help Iraq although this has put the army in a bad light the majority seem to be honourable enough men. Its also a sad fact of life that war is here to stay, and how many of us can say we could stand up to a bullet and go to Iraq as a volounteer, as oppossed to conscription.

Nina

I've seen this video by accident. Usually I avoid looking at things like that cause they literally make me sick to the stomach. So did this one. I almost had to puke... Confused

Aventinian

Morph

Also although Bloody Sunday was a tragedy for all parties concerned and a very black day in British and irish history are you suggesting that this was an act of Army Brutality as oppossed to a grave misjudgement?

parkhead_rfb

it clearly was army brutality, wither it was a grave misjudgement or not i fail to see your point. around this time british soldiers arriving in the 06 were actually being handled a fictional ira green book with all sorts of british created non-sense contained in it, most noteable authors on the situation in ireland will give you more details, why were the leaders of the british army doing this other than to encourage british ill feeling towards the nationalist community? no such book was ever invented for the uvf et al.

yes aventanian i have been present in ardoyne when the orange order has paraded through the area with the assistance of the psni/ruc and the british army, i have seen their actions towards the nationalist community.

i suppose you would have to get a psychiatrist or psychologist to answer your second point i am not qualified to do so, i only seen the facts that they did attack those iraqis and this type of behaviour has not been an isolated incident.

Morph

i think the point Aventian is trying to make is that the British army will find it harder to do its job in Iraq due to the ill feeling created by this incident. Why would they consciously try to make this already hard job even worse by letting soldiers kick the s**t out of iraqi youth?

Aventinian

RBK

Nina

RBK

Ach! Aye...that'll do fine Very Happy

parkhead_rfb

rbk you have to put the incident you refer to into context, the funeral that those two soldiers drove into were for people who had been murdered just shortly before during michael stones attack on another funeral. they were enemy soldiers murdered by a force that does not have the capacity to detain or interrograte.

aventanian you will find reference to the british forged green book in tim pat coogans the ira or liz curtis's ireland: the propaganda war, those are just two off the top of my head that i can think of that refer to it i am sure there will be others. you also excuse those actions by saying that the uvf werent shooting soldiers, i thought that britains role was as a peacekeeping force at least thats what the british propaganda always tells us. lets also not forget that the ulster defence regiment was a part of the british army for a significant time untill their actions became too embarrassing for the british and had to be disbanded.

you should try being on the other side of the fence aventanian and you will be amazed to the lies that the british state will tell, the event i was reffering to i heard in reports that petrol bombs had "rained down" on the police, i didnt see one that day, and there was certainly no raining down of petrol bombs going on.

i will also try and find you a link for the video the siege of short strand. the short strand is a nationalist enclave in the east of belfast which is surrounded by around 30, 000 unionists to 3,000 nationalists. the video in question will show you loyalists firing catapaults into the short strand whilst the police sit a few yards away in their vans, one well known loyalists is even leaning in the window talking to the police at the same time.

Morph

hasnt this strayed away from iraq?

Nina

RBK

Nina

You want to see me puke?? Shocked

Joking!
Alright, I got it... thanks.

parkhead_rfb

the two soldeirs were enemy troops in ireland, they knew that ira members would attack them hardly surprising then that when they drive into a republican funeral they are attacked. it becomes even less surprising when you add to this the fact that the funeral that day was for those who had been murdered during an attack on a previous funeral.

Aventinian

Even some of the most rabid fenians out there would not agree with what you're coming out with Parkhead. I think there's a general consensus here that you're talking nonsense and no one really wants to hear it.

RBK

parkhead_rfb

tough its my opinion, also i am not a fenian i am a republican thanks. i dont think you will find many republicans who disagree that british soldiers were legitimate targets though Confused

Morph

Do you believe that Brittish soldiers are a legitimate target?

parkhead_rfb

yes i believe that british troops were legitimate targets for republicans using a physical force campaign.

Morph

why if they were there as a a peacekeeping force. Not debating if they carried this out but this was their title, why were they legitimate targets? What about civillians were they legitimate targets because Omagh seems to suggest this

RBK

parkhead_rfb

that may have been their title but evidence seems to state something very different. the british army soon became a vehicle for pushing further harships on the nationalist community. they were deployed to enforce the falls road curfew, no such curfew was enforced in unionist areas. they were used to impose internment, why were no loyalists interned? they murdered 14 civil rights demonstrators. In short the british army were not an impartial peacekeeping force they were there to enforce unionist rule in the north of Ireland therefore they were legitimate targets.

omagh was a terrible operation and i have no support for the real ira but there are factors that you have not acknowledged. A warning was phoned for the bomb had the intention been to attack civillians they could have not done this and civillian casualties would have been ensured. The operation, however, was a disgrace and due to confusion surrounding the bombing the police actually pushed the public towards where the bomb was placed. I agree that the omagh bombing was a terrible operation but civillians were not the intended targets.

Morph

but the bomb should not have been there at all.As long as violent factions continue in ireland they will never see independance

Aventinian

parkhead_rfb

at present i agree morph, i have already said that i didnt agree with the operation, i was simply pointing out that the intention was not to kill civillians.

british brutality in iraq

Re: british brutality in iraq

b