Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites.
|
Aventinian
|
Cameron criticise's Brown's Unionist Rhetoric | Quote: | Brown bullying Scotland - Cameron
Gordon Brown is trying to intimidate Scotland into remaining part of the UK, Conservative leader David Cameron says.
He wrote in the Scottish Mail on Sunday that the case for preserving the union of England and Scotland must be made "with the heart as well as the head".
He insisted there was "no question" the union had made both countries stronger.
Mr Cameron was responding to criticism from the chancellor, who has accused the Tories of risking the future of the UK by siding with nationalists.
The Tory leader said the chancellor was using rhetoric about the "fear of the economic consequences of going it alone" to intimidate Scotland.
And he denied Mr Brown's claims that the Tories had taken "anti-unionist positions".
'Serious threat'
This year marks 300 years since the Act of Union united the two countries' parliaments, and Mr Cameron said he would be celebrating the anniversary.
"But we need to be honest. For others, this anniversary will not be a cause for celebration," he wrote.
"With the majority of Scottish voters now favouring independence, polls show that the union is under serious threat."
Mr Cameron argued that Scotland needed a resurgence from the Conservative Party - which has only one MP north of the border.
He said people were disenchanted because of the "nature of the political forces" there.
He accused Labour of offering "big-state solutions and endless interference into people's lives".
And he said the Scottish National Party (SNP) offered "rhetoric on the dismemberment of the union" but lacked "intellectual coherence".
The SNP is tipped to do well in the Scottish Parliament elections in May - with the independence debate likely to crop up often in the campaign.
In a speech to the Fabian Society on Saturday, Mr Brown accused the Tories and nationalists of "playing fast and loose" with the union.
He said there was now a dividing line in Britain between "those of us who are prepared to support the shared values of the union" and those who are prepared to "put the whole future of the union at risk". |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6260273.stm
I'm not entirely sure. As Gordon Brown has himself admitted (and Jack McConnell made a comment in regards to on the Politics Show Scotland today) there needs to be a more positive case made for the Union. And there is plenty of material to work with.
Cameron's comments on the subject are all very interesting, but I don't think he does well to turn this into a party-political subject.
|
Mctosh45
|
Sounds to me Cameron, is quite prepared to let Scotland go it's own way, indeed he knows that without Scottish Labour M.P's, Tory victory is all the more likely in a divided Britain.
Maybe Scottish Tories should now come across to independence as they will be sorely needed in an independent Scotland to counter 50 years of Labour hegemony, and being seen as a pro independence party can only endear themselves to the Scottish electorate and increase their vote? 
|
Avatar
|
If they want to save the union they'll have to do more than just make a positive case imo, they'll have to change the entire structure of the UK, and I cant see them seriously tackling any of these issues.
|
Aventinian
|
| Mctosh45 wrote: | | Sounds to me Cameron, is quite prepared to let Scotland go it's own way, indeed he knows that without Scottish Labour M.P's, Tory victory is all the more likely in a divided Britain. |
That's an incredibly cynical perspective. Do you think his stance on immigration, for example, is based on the fact that most minorities are Labour voters? Sounds like a tenious connection to me.
Cameron is a committed Unionist. I've never heard a leader of the opposition talk so passionately on the subject as Cameron does. Indeed, if you believe the press, he is very willing to come up here and do a great deal in the fight for the Scottish Parliament. I think you've got the entirely wrong end of the stick.
| Quote: | | Maybe Scottish Tories should now come across to independence as they will be sorely needed in an independent Scotland to counter 50 years of Labour hegemony, and being seen as a pro independence party can only endear themselves to the Scottish electorate and increase their vote? |
Well, no. Not anymore than, as I've argued before, becoming a pro-Britain party would benefit the SNP.
|
Aventinian
|
| Avatar wrote: | | If they want to save the union they'll have to do more than just make a positive case imo, they'll have to change the entire structure of the UK, and I cant see them seriously tackling any of these issues. |
All they need do is address the West Lothian Question, and they've already made a commitment to doing that should they win the next general election.
|
Economist
|
| Aventinian wrote: | | Cameron is a committed Unionist. I've never heard a leader of the opposition talk so passionately on the subject as Cameron does. Indeed, if you believe the press, he is very willing to come up here and do a great deal in the fight for the Scottish Parliament. I think you've got the entirely wrong end of the stick. |
Cameron may be a committed Unionist, his party (the English branch of it, anyway) is increasingly much, much less so. I would imagine most Conservative MPs would be pretty happy to be rid of Scotland, as it would mean free reign for the Tories at Westminster. How many election defeats will their need to be, how many missed Tory opportunities will there need to be until Cameron is converted to their way of thinking? Not many I'll wager. He's also handicapped by a totally inept Scottish Tory party, which quite frankly are a joke and an embarassment.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Well, no. Not anymore than, as I've argued before, becoming a pro-Britain party would benefit the SNP. |
Why not? Independence fits in with their ideology much better. With some better Holyrood members, credible centre right policies and a commitment to Independence, I'd vote them like a shot.
|
Avatar
|
| Quote: | | All they need do is address the West Lothian Question, and they've already made a commitment to doing that should they win the next general election. |
To placate the English perhaps, but to Save the Union it'll take a hell of a lot more than just appeasing the english.
|
Maol.Chaluim
|
| Aventinian wrote: | | Avatar wrote: | | If they want to save the union they'll have to do more than just make a positive case imo, they'll have to change the entire structure of the UK, and I cant see them seriously tackling any of these issues. |
All they need do is address the West Lothian Question, and they've already made a commitment to doing that should they win the next general election. |
Sounds simple, doesn't it? You could argue that in order to properly address the West Lothian Question, the UK would have to be restructured. Or dissolved  .
|
Aventinian
|
| Maol.Chaluim wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | Avatar wrote: | | If they want to save the union they'll have to do more than just make a positive case imo, they'll have to change the entire structure of the UK, and I cant see them seriously tackling any of these issues. |
All they need do is address the West Lothian Question, and they've already made a commitment to doing that should they win the next general election. |
Sounds simple, doesn't it? You could argue that in order to properly address the West Lothian Question, the UK would have to be restructured. Or dissolved . |
I don't think it could be solved without some sort of restructuring, although I've heard Tories talk about a simple convention whereby non-English MPs refrain from votes on English matters.
Personally I believe in an English assembly constituted of the existing MPs from English constituencies, meeting in a separate place from Parliament.
|
SLG
|
| Aventinian wrote: | | I don't think it could be solved without some sort of restructuring, although I've heard Tories talk about a simple convention whereby non-English MPs refrain from votes on English matters. |
What happens if certain Scottish MPs don't commit to this convention?
|
|
|
|