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SLG
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Catholic leader backs Scottish independenceThe bandawagon rolls on  Front page splash on the SoS...
| Quote: | Catholic leader backs Scottish independence
EDDIE BARNES - POLITICAL EDITOR
THE leader of Scotland's Roman Catholics last night backed independence from the UK, declaring he would be "happy" if Scots wanted separation.
Cardinal Keith O'Brien, in remarks that will cause shockwaves north and south of the Border, said nations such as Ireland and Denmark benefited from the "prosperity which self-determination can bring".
The 68-year-old cleric also voiced his frustration with the Scottish Parliament and predicted independence is coming "before too long".
O'Brien's comments have caused deep dismay in Labour ranks, with party sources expressing disappointment the Cardinal has chosen to stray on to such controversial political ground months before the Holyrood elections.
But there was predictable delight among the SNP, who closed their party conference yesterday in buoyant mood, convinced they can persuade Scots of the benefits of full independence at the ballot box next May.
O'Brien's remarks appear in an interview with the Catholic Herald newspaper and St Andrews University philosopher John Haldane.
Asked if the Church could be indifferent to a move towards independence in Scotland, he declared: "I would not get too involved in the politics of independence, but I am happy that, if it is the wish of the people, Scotland becomes an independent country."
He added: "In my travels I have had much experience of small countries and I have seen what benefits independence can bring.
"There is currently some frustration among the Scots about the say they have over what happens here, and that is part of what is pushing the independence movement. I can see this coming, perhaps not in the next few years, but before too long."
O'Brien concedes that, as the leader of a Scottish church which is itself independent from England, "it is difficult to argue that ecclesiastical independence is acceptable but political independence is not".
Asked by Scotland on Sunday to expand on his views, O'Brien talked up the advantages other small countries have experienced since getting independence.
He said: "Ireland would be an example of a country which has prospered since achieving independence. Additionally, other northern European countries such as Norway and Denmark exemplify the prosperity which self-determination can bring."
O'Brien also acknowledged the growth of nationalism across the nations of the UK. "I am aware of a growing sense of nationhood and national identity in England, exhibited recently during the World Cup campaign and reflected in the increasing appearance of the St George Cross at such sporting fixtures and other gatherings. In this context, Scottish national identity has always been strong. Ultimately multinational identities are harder to express than national ones."
He also picked out the current debate over the future of Britain's nuclear deterrent. O'Brien recently joined the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in condemning plans to replace the UK's Trident system as "iniquitous, irrational and absurd".
He said: "The recent debate on Trident is instructive. The groundswell of feeling in Scotland against the Trident missile system has highlighted a deep sense of frustration among many Scots. We have no wish to pay for or host these evil weapons, yet we have no power to remove them."
The Cardinal's comments follow a series of sharp attacks on Labour's policies on moral issues, despite historically strong links between Catholics in Scotland and the Labour Party. Last week, Philip Tartaglia, the Catholic Bishop of Paisley, criticised politicians for making laws such as those allowing gay civil marriages, and accused legislators of becoming intolerant and even hostile to Christian opinion.
SNP leader Alex Salmond said last night: "Scotland's Cardinal is a man of vision and stature. Obviously he avoids party politics, but I am delighted that he has issued such favourable signals about independence and self-determination for the nation."
But leading composer James MacMillan, a practising Catholic, said he disagreed. "I believe in the Union. I believe that my views are much closer to the views of most Catholics in Scotland."
And a Labour insider said of O'Brien's intervention: "It's not helpful, but the only consolation is that it's a long time since Catholic voters did exactly what they were told by their Church."
Officially the party's response was more muted. A spokesman said: "Cardinal O'Brien is entitled to his views, and the Catholic church has a long history of taking a position on Trident." |
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1527572006
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Shadowman
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Do the spoutings of a Catholic bishop really have much effect on the voting habits of his followers? I know plenty of people who consider themselves Catholic, but not to the extent that their ballot papers are steered by the clergy.
On the other hand, this could be yet another attempt by the church to appear "hip" and "relevant" by showing support for the latest craze. And they wonder why attendance sinks ever lower...
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An Dà Shealladh
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You are taliking about the leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland.
Cardinal O'Brien has made known his views,good on him.
Whether you are Catholic or not, this has to be viewed as a monumental step forward.
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Shadowman
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| An Dà Shealladh wrote: | You are taliking about the leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland.
Cardinal O'Brien has made known his views,good on him.
Whether you are Catholic or not, this has to be viewed as a monumental step forward. |
Is it really such a step forward, in a country of lax faith and where Catholicism is not even the largest religion?
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Avatar
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I dont think its particularly relevant but I guess the more high profile people we have saying sensible things - the less we have saying dumb stuff.
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October1974
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Who he is is not that important. Good is that the subject is being talked about. George Robertson said that devolution would kill independence stone dead. It hasn't. Non-SNP MSP's want more powers. They don't want less powers.
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wisnaeme
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| Shadowman wrote: | | An Dà Shealladh wrote: | You are taliking about the leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland.
Cardinal O'Brien has made known his views,good on him.
Whether you are Catholic or not, this has to be viewed as a monumental step forward. |
Is it really such a step forward, in a country of lax faith and where Catholicism is not even the largest religion? |
Are you making a statement on Catholics then "Shadowman"?
Mibee, but dare I suggest that the lax faith in a country you refer to, applies increasing more so, as time passes, to former unionists of all religious persuasions who now have lax faith.  One of the main reasons methinks for lack of argument and negitivaty not to mention desertion from unionism. Aye about right, lax faith indeed.
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George
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| Shadowman wrote: | | Do the spoutings of a Catholic bishop really have much effect on the voting habits of his followers? |
It doesn't matter if it has an effect or not. The point is that this is a man of considerable stature who is advocating Scottish independence; I for one consider it excellent news.
Incidently Shallowman, I believe that it is a Cardinal who is "spouting".
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Aventinian
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Yet when the Catholic church was seen to back Labour, you were all outraged.
Maybe the Cardinal thinks it's the best way to get a Catholic back on the throne...
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George
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| Aventinian wrote: | Yet when the Catholic church was seen to back Labour, you were all outraged.
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There is a difference between advocating support for a party and stating that you agree with a concept.
| Aventinian wrote: |
Maybe the Cardinal thinks it's the best way to get a Catholic back on the throne... |
| Aventinian wrote: |
I don't go about making pointless statements like 'Nationalism is dying, we're going to win!!!11one' - I try to make my posts have a point and actually debate people's views rather than simply making broad statements like that to either wind other people up or to reassure myself of something I'm not all that sure of.
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So what point are you making with the "Catholic on the throne" statement?
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SLG
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I don't think he's telling anyone that, because he is the head of their church that they should follow his political views on this matter. He's giving an opinion as an individual. It's up to the press to decide that he's an important enough a person that his views should be reported with such emphasis. If he was saying that Scots Catholics should support independence, just because he does, I would have problems with that. The Churches should stay out of politics. But he was responding to questions in an interview and he is entitled to his opinion. If his opinion is so respected that some with consider independence where they were closed minded to it before then that can't be bad thing IMO.
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Aventinian
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| George wrote: | | So what point are you making with the "Catholic on the throne" statement? |
Shockingly enough, I was being facetious. Although you never know...
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wisnaeme
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| Aventinian wrote: | | George wrote: | | So what point are you making with the "Catholic on the throne" statement? |
Shockingly enough, I was being facetious. Although you never know... |
Hmm.Facetious are ye. Is that another big wurd ah can add tae ra definition o a unionist then? Weel mibee it's nae just ra mibee aye's, mibee naw's Fibdems that are nae consistant and ah thought ra unionists were consistant.All this talk o Its Time must be making ra unionist heids spin like peeries. Or is it a weaking though lack of inspired argument that is finally daeing fer them. Are ye having having a bout o lax faith then "Aventinian?" Ah heard yon Cameron chappie has had a bout of lax faith as weel, must be terrible to catch yon.
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Theresa
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If the Cardinal's remarks help the Independence movement, then take the votes and run with them. The apparent mixture of religion and politics is just a reflection of the Catholic church's position of the "social gospel."
As for "lax faith" and falling attendance, those topics would probably require their own thread! 
George wrote:
| Quote: | | Incidently Shallowman, I believe that it is a Cardinal who is "spouting". |
Aye, but hopefullly not "pontificating".
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Aventinian
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| wisnaeme wrote: | | Hmm.Facetious are ye. Is that another big wurd ah can add tae ra definition o a unionist then? Weel mibee it's nae just ra mibee aye's, mibee naw's Fibdems that are nae consistant and ah thought ra unionists were consistant.All this talk o Its Time must be making ra unionist heids spin like peeries. Or is it a weaking though lack of inspired argument that is finally daeing fer them. Are ye having having a bout o lax faith then "Aventinian?" Ah heard yon Cameron chappie has had a bout of lax faith as weel, must be terrible to catch yon. |
Au contraire, I'm quite looking forward to Cameron's rise. He's doing well down south and I have no doubt that he'll eventually increase the Tory vote in Scotland and be a champion of the Unionist cause.
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Corby Boy
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Cannae be a bad thing for the movement considering the traditional voting patterns of catholic's toward labour.
In an ideal world politics and religion shouldn't mix, but we all know it does, so at least this is positive development.
May give those who support Irish nationalism/republicanism but vote for essentially a unionist party in Scotland pause for thought , I would think!
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