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Anthropos

Catholic Schools under attack from Scottish Establishment

Ex Minister Sam Galbraith led the charge, and a week later Lord Steel joined the assault on Catholic schools in Scotland.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-2525009,00.html

It is the usual pish, denominational schools in Scotland perpetuate sectarianism, blah blah blah. Like Galbraith, Steel provides bugger all evidence, and the fact that many other countries have denominational schools but not the same problems with sectarianism is ignored in favour of absurd comparisons with Kenya.

What it actually demonstrates is how the Scottish Political Establishment views education – as a tool of social engineering. If only they were so concerned about our deplorable rates of numeracy and literacy.

However I think the Catholic Church must accept some of the blame for their current predicament. There has been a lack of foresight on the part of the Catholic Church which was far to willing to submit to state power and it is now paying the price.

They should also beware of other Greeks baring gifts. SNP leader Alex Salmond has written an article defending denominational education:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-2532052,00.html

Salmond writes:

“think the record of Catholic schools is first rate in Scotland. They are popular and effective and serve thousands of pupils well. It is interesting that none of the criticism of Catholic schools is based on their education record. I think that speaks volumes.”

Indeed it does, but remember the fate of St Mary’s Episcopal Primary School at Dunblane;

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/news/2001/08/se1986.asp

St Mary’s was a state school with no selection process and no fees. It opted out of local authority control in 1993 and was run by a voluntary board composed of parents, teachers and the local Episcopalian rector:

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk...cation/reports-00/edr00-02-05.htm

Despite being a high achieving school, and despite the objections of parents, the Scottish Establishment were not going to stand for a school – especially a very good one – being out with state control and it was forcibly returned to local authority control. Where was Alex Salmond then? But then there were few votes to be gained.

Salmond is a socialist, and he has always been a socialist, and is committed to socialist ideas of state power. He may well want to court the Catholic vote today, as he is also assiduously courting the Muslim vote, but don't be surprised tomorrow to find him singing a different tune. The Catholic Church must be wary of making the same mistake twice.

What should they do? In my opinion they should persuade the SNP to bring in the Swedish Voucher system, this would do something very un-socialist, it would give “power to the people”. Parents would then decide where there children were educated, and Catholic education would be safeguarded because schools would no longer be yoked to the state and subject to the political prejudices of the Scottish Political establishment.

But they should do it now because when Salmond is running an independent Scotland he may well decide something needs to be done about sectarianism, and don’t be surprised if closing Catholic schools is his solution.
Mctosh45

Personally I think religion has no place in School. School is about knowledge not belief Sad Confused
R.Ascal

While schools may well be better having no religion that is not where we are. Do Galbraith and other critics of catholic schools want to shut Jewish schools too?

And if so why do they only ever go on abot catholics?
Mctosh45

Yes R.Ascal it is where we are and I would abolish all religious schools I'm glad you agree.
Avatar

I am in agreement with Mctosh45 whilst im sure that sectarianism has root causes far beyond seperate schools, I doubt it helps, by all means have churches and sunday school lessons and what not, and have religious studies, but integration not segregation for state schools.
Aventinian

I think it's a sad indictment on our society that many Roman Catholic parents want their children to be educated separately from others, but it is perfectly legitimate of them to do so. I was at an international school for a short time, and it was a fantastic experience which opened my mind to many different cultures and addressing some of the problems of the world from a less Anglocentric viewpoint - mixing children is good for them.

I don't believe the state should fund religious instruction in any way, shape or form; Catholic schools must be private schools. But equally I am not against some form of voucher system etc for widening access to private education and for compensating parents who choose not to use the state system.
Avatar

SNP vow on Muslim state schools

Quote:
ALEX Salmond has promised to look at creating state-funded Muslim schools if the SNP wins power in May.

He said: "We must listen to representations from within the Muslim community and make a full assessment of the demand for Muslim schools."


http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=35252007


*groan*
Rolling Eyes
Cymro

As I've already noted, I am against schools based on religious (although Catholicism isn't a Religion) segregation. It seems many who are supportive of Catholic Schools (i.e. Parkhead) like to claim that people who are opposed to Catholic schools do so because we think they are Secterian in themselves - which is rollox.

I am against Catholic Schools and any other religious school because I feel communties should not be divided on religious lines, for any reason. They do play a part in maintaining the sense of two seperate peoples and a "Them and Us" attitude. Especially in a country which does have a problem between Catholicism and Protestanism in many parts of it to allow what is essentially state sponsored segregation is daft.
Aventinian

Cymro wrote:
They do play a part in maintaining the sense of two seperate peoples and a "Them and Us" attitude.


I think separate states do just this too. Very Happy
Cymro

Not at all. Seperate schools carves communities in two (at least) on religious grounds. That is not healthy. If I wanted to create a Presbyterian State of Wales then you'd have a point. However I don't see religous segregation as being acceptable, just like segregation based on race.
Aventinian

But segregation based on culture is fine?
Mctosh45

Aventinian,

"It's the economy stupid" Scotland needs to control her own economy. Britain has failed in this respect....."Union dividend anyone?"
Lothian Sky

I'm against segregated education, but it's here and it's popular in the catholic community.
It wasn't catholics who brought in segregated education, it was the mid 19th century Conservative government, who saw Irish immigration as a threat to the fabric of the British nation.

If we aren't prepared to ban all catholic schools inScotland, then its only fair to allow muslim ones where there is sufficient demand.
Avatar

Its not really a question of banning them - just that they shouldn't be state funded. If people want to be educated in a special way then they should either pay for it themselves or do it in their own time imo.
Aventinian

Avatar wrote:
Its not really a question of banning them - just that they shouldn't be state funded. If people want to be educated in a special way then they should either pay for it themselves or do it in their own time imo.


Yet if the government accepts the principle of non-means-tested education for all, why should it only operate on its own monopoly, yet tax everyone.

I know many people who were in good private schools as a result of financial assistance by the state and it probably made them who they are today. This no longer exists? Why? Why should the money that the government would have spent educating a child in the state system not be allowed to be put towards fees at an independent school?

I don't think the government should fund the religious elements of it by any means, or to actually organise religious schooling, but why the double standard over what they'll spend their money on?
Avatar

Quote:
Yet if the government accepts the principle of non-means-tested education for all, why should it only operate on its own monopoly, yet tax everyone.

I know many people who were in good private schools as a result of financial assistance by the state and it probably made them who they are today. This no longer exists? Why? Why should the money that the government would have spent educating a child in the state system not be allowed to be put towards fees at an independent school?

I don't think the government should fund the religious elements of it by any means, or to actually organise religious schooling, but why the double standard over what they'll spend their money on?


Thats a fair point. One you could probably raise with health care also. It seems a bit pointless though being taxed and then getting your share back to use it for your choice of education and health. Would it not be better to have different taxes for education and NHS in which you could opt out of paying them if you choose to go private for these services? Or would that be completely impractical?
Rinty

g

The trouble is that we have an education system in Scotland where all of the state schools are religious to an extent, so singling out catholic schools will do little.

Non-denominational is the not the same as non-religious. It means that the school is not of one particular denomination of the protestant christian faith.

If we scrap catholic schools or state funding for catholic schools we will be asking parents and pupils to be shoehorned into a school where a protestant minister is the school chaplain, with protestant assemblies with protestant services on feast days and religious times of the year.

If we do this we will still see some level of segregation within the schools when it comes to religious celebrations.

To me, we should scrap the requirements for state schools to have a level of religious observance or at the very least make it something that can be an "opt-in" rather than an "opt-out" situation.

I am open to the idea of allowing some sort of religious observance in schools for those who wish it. For instance, we could allow a minister or priest to conduct lunchtime services on certain days if anyone requires it (voluntary not compulsory) make sure certain dietary needs are seen to in the school meals, allow a quiet room for prayer for young adult muslims etc.

In short, let's take religion out of schools, but scrapping catholic schools means putting all the catholics into a school that is, in effect, a protestant school.

We should take religion out of schools altogether and we would see, in my opinion, less objections from "catholic" parents.
Cymro

Aventinian wrote:
But segregation based on culture is fine?


Where do I advocate chucking out all the non Welsh people from an Independent Wales?

Answers on a postcard to:

I'm Clutching at Straws
C/O Avetinan
Bull s**t Towers
Cymro

Re: g

Rinty wrote:
The trouble is that we have an education system in Scotland where all of the state schools are religious to an extent, so singling out catholic schools will do little.

Non-denominational is the not the same as non-religious. It means that the school is not of one particular denomination of the protestant christian faith.

If we scrap catholic schools or state funding for catholic schools we will be asking parents and pupils to be shoehorned into a school where a protestant minister is the school chaplain, with protestant assemblies with protestant services on feast days and religious times of the year.

If we do this we will still see some level of segregation within the schools when it comes to religious celebrations.

To me, we should scrap the requirements for state schools to have a level of religious observance or at the very least make it something that can be an "opt-in" rather than an "opt-out" situation.

I am open to the idea of allowing some sort of religious observance in schools for those who wish it. For instance, we could allow a minister or priest to conduct lunchtime services on certain days if anyone requires it (voluntary not compulsory) make sure certain dietary needs are seen to in the school meals, allow a quiet room for prayer for young adult muslims etc.

In short, let's take religion out of schools, but scrapping catholic schools means putting all the catholics into a school that is, in effect, a protestant school.

We should take religion out of schools altogether and we would see, in my opinion, less objections from "catholic" parents.


I agree whole heartedly. My opposition isn't against only Catholic Schools, and to be honest I don't think most people think like that. It's against any State schools being religious or favouring 1 denomination, sect or religion over another.

We have Church Schools in Wales (Catholic and Anglican), in Wrexham they've joined the Anglican and Catholic Church together so it is now 1 school. Most schools here though aren't Church Schools - we had Assembly when we where young but that was more of a chance for teachers to tell us all off for going down town when not supposed too, running in corridors etc and sign a couple of hyms. No ministers, no religious signs etc.
Aventinian

Cymro wrote:
Aventinian wrote:
But segregation based on culture is fine?


Where do I advocate chucking out all the non Welsh people from an Independent Wales?

Answers on a postcard to:

I'm Clutching at Straws
C/O Avetinan
Bull s**t Towers


Depends what you define as Welsh. To be honest, I believe if you had any number of people threatening your culture from within, you'd probably start advocating strict immigration controls and the like to save it - otherwise your 'nation' dies.

You only have to look to Nationalist groups like Settler Watch in Scotland to see that it doesn't take much to cross over from separation to intolerance, but of course history has shown that consistantly to be the case.

You'll also note that most Catholic schools don't expel apostates or exclude non-RC children either. I've heard of veiled Muslims in Catholic schools and a close friend of mine, of protestant background, attended one.
Cymro

Put it like this, you don't know what I believe in with regards to safeguarding the Welsj language etc. I live in an area where the language s under considerable prssure from people moving in. But I tend to be of the belief that we need to make there people see the language as being a part of living here - like moving to Japan, France or Italy. I never advocate stopping immigration - especially as my wife is an Immigrant herself - from Scotland.

I don't see how getting rid of State Relihgious Schools threatens Catholicism in anyway though. People can still receive their Catholic teachings in their own time - and same for any other religion or denomination.
azzuri

Aventinian wrote:
Cymro wrote:
Aventinian wrote:
But segregation based on culture is fine?


Where do I advocate chucking out all the non Welsh people from an Independent Wales?

Answers on a postcard to:

I'm Clutching at Straws
C/O Avetinan
Bull s**t Towers


Depends what you define as Welsh. To be honest, I believe if you had any number of people threatening your culture from within, you'd probably start advocating strict immigration controls and the like to save it - otherwise your 'nation' dies.

You only have to look to Nationalist groups like Settler Watch in Scotland to see that it doesn't take much to cross over from separation to intolerance, but of course history has shown that consistantly to be the case.

You'll also note that most Catholic schools don't expel apostates or exclude non-RC children either. I've heard of veiled Muslims in Catholic schools and a close friend of mine, of protestant background, attended one.


It doesn't take much to cross over from Unionist to bigotted religious nutter either.

See what I did there? Rolling Eyes

Just because someone shares two views does not necessarily mean that those two are more extreme views on the same spectrum. Being a nationalist and being anti-immigration are not the same thing, or even on the same spectrum.

I know many committed unionists who are abjectly against all forms of immigration into Scotland, including that of English people.
Anthropos

Mctosh45 wrote:
Personally I think religion has no place in School. School is about knowledge not belief Sad Confused


Catholic schools teach knowledge, indeed is Catholic theology not a form of knowledge?
Morph

All schools should be non-denominational, or more importantly all publicly funded schools should be Catholic. I totally agree with the earier post that if Catholic schools are allowed to stay then =Muslim schools should be set up by the state. Where will this end though, children who learn together dont have the same us/them mentality and integration can be easier.

If there is a specific racial or religious problem in the country or town then surely schools in which children from both factions are educated it is easier to give a balanced solution to both sets of kids
Mctosh45

Catholic schools teach knowledge, indeed is Catholic theology not a form of knowledge?

To my mind no, you can only believe in God not know him/her/it? Whatever religion Wink

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