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franko
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Catholics and independence for ScotlandWe appear to be witnessing a sea change in Catholic attitudes towards the union in Scotland.
In the 1960's/1970's it was strange indeed to find many Catholics - particularly those of Irish descent, who, of course, make up the overwhelming majority of catholics in Scotland - voting for the SNP.
Traditionally, catholics in Scotland, particularly in the urban areas, voted for the Labour Party, Labour being the party that provided those of Irish descent with representation and upward social mobility, particularly in the years following 1945 and the inception of the welfare state. Access to higher education for the working class enabled thousands of young catholics of Irish descent to enter professions previously barred to them as a result of religious discrimination, which was endemic in Scottish society during the inter-war years.
The Unionist Party (now known as the Tory Party), monopolised the votes of the British, Unionist, Orange, Imperialist, working class and anti-Catholic elements of Scottish society. Their historic and contemporary hostility to Irish people and their historical role in the oppression of the people of Ireland meant they were unlikely to appeal for the votes of the descendents of Irish catholic immigrants, even had they wanted to, which they emphatically did not. As late as 1955, the Unionists were able to secure 55% of the Scottish vote in the General Election of that year.
Nonetheless, by the 1960's the unionist vote was in freefall; even the working class orange vote was beginning to desert them, and, given the overwhelming catholic support for the Labour Party, in one of the great paradoxes of Scottish electoral behavior, the 'orange vote', such as it was, began to gravitate towards the emerging SNP, in an attempt to keep 'catholic labour' out. The Labour Party was traditionally a coalition of skilled protestant workers and unskilled working class catholics that relied far more on the former in order to get elected than it ever did on the 'catholic vote'.
The sight of orangemen canvassing for the SNP was used by the Labour Party to instill fear among catholics that, should Scotland achieve independence, the same fate would happen to catholics here as was visited upon their co-religionists in the North of Ireland. This was a real fear among catholics in Scotland - it was also used to manipulate working class catholics into maintaining their support for the LP. At the same time, it could still be argued that the economic and social welfare of the catholic community was best served by continuing support for the Labour Party. Bear in mind that the SNP, at its inception, was a coalition of anti-catholic zealots coalesced aroung Andrew Dewer Gibb and his Scottish Party, as well as other more secular and non-sectarian individuals in the National Party.
What has changed? For one thing, Scottish nationalism has matured to a considerable degree in the last 20 years or so. While there may still be an orange and an anti-catholic element in some of the constituency parties - as there are in the Tory Party - in general and at national leadership level, the SNP has been transformed into a social democratic party, to the left of the Labour Party, though that would hardly be difficult, given the collapse of idealism and radicalism in the 'peoples party'.
Catholics in Scotland no longer feel part of a 'ghetto', however much this was self-imposed by themselves or inflicted on them by wider anti-catholic and Irish forces in Scottish society. I see support for independence growing amonst catholics, many of whom would never have dreamt of voting SNP in the past.
The SNP, notwithstanding their move to the left of Labour, are unlikely to get my vote as I see them as a pro-business party in the process of jumping into bed with anti-trade union Tom Farmer.
Then again I would defo vote for them before I would vote for the Labour Party, a party that believes in nothing but power, and power at any cost, including hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.
What do other posters think?
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azzuri
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I've moved this post to the Scottish section... 
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Mctosh45
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Franko,
Sounds like your for Independence,if you can't bring youself to vote for the S.N.P. there are other choices. Personaly I've voted S.N.P. all my life except 97' Labour (won't do that again)I read your analysis & found it very informative, especially the the dilemma facing Scots Irish Catholics in the early post war years.
I'm from Dundee originally & had a wonderful childhood during the 60's & 70's and first became aware of the S.N.P. around 1973/4 as my elder brother became an activist during his "Uni" days. To me it has never been a Sectarian party, but it shows the different experiences of people in different parts of the country, the problems you describe are peculiar to West central Scotland in particular (as we all know)but in the Northeast it is not much of an issue & hasn't been in my living memory.
The S.N.P. to me has always stood for "civic nationalism". Inclusive and all embraceing so it came as a bit of a shock to hear it's early history after the war. I have often wondered why Irish descent Catholics' voted for a unionist party & now I know why. Those days are past , well & truely, for the S.N.P. and GOOD RIDDANCE. Franko you must know this is true?
Anyway thanks for the enlightenment.
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Rinty
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tWhere I live the orange vote was always either labour or tory, never the SNP but the catholic church, from the centre, always made a point of attaching itself to Labour, so the catholic/labour connection was more to do with the catholic church being pro labour than the SNP being anti-catholic.
I cant speak for other areas.
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SLG
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Re: Catholics and independence for Scotland | franko wrote: | | While there may still be an orange and an anti-catholic element in some of the constituency parties |
Is there? Where? I've never come across anything that would come even close to this.
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franko
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I have no doubt that what you say in relation to the part of Ayrshire where you come from is correct Rinty. In the urban parts of Lanarkshire and througout greater Glasgow things were entirely different.
The 'orange' vote is a shadow of its former self, but when the Tories collapsed in Scotland many thousands turned to the SNP (remember the Monklands By election?), not because they were in any way sympathetic to nationalism, but because they detested the 'catholic-fenian' Labour Party, and would never vote for a 'taig'.
It must be very doubful if the hard core orange vote would vote SNP now, in fact, it is difficult to argue that this vote even exists anymore, given the fracturing of working class loyalism in the WOS.
While orangeism remains a force on the streets at certain times of the year, electorally, they are completely irrelevant.
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Scott2006
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Attitudes and voting habits in relation to religious affiliation have thankfully changed greatly in the last 60 years. Labour has through policy implementation moved away from the catholic church line on some contentious subjects and if this has helped some catholics reappraise their support for Labour that is a welcome effect.
The Scottish Unionist Party got 2,728 votes in 2001 and 1,266 votes in 2005 so obviously they represent a fringe element of Scottish society today with other similar voters probably finding a home in the Conservative Party.
A point about the 1955 Election:
In 1955 the National Liberal and Conservative vote was 50.09% of the total vote, due in some measure to only 2 SNP and 5 Liberal Party candidates standing in that General Election in Scotland.
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Rinty
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tI would say that in some council areas the "orange" vote is still strong, my own local Labour councillor is a prominent orangemen.
The thing is though that I have never associated this with the SNP, I think there has been a clear relationship between the catholic church establishment and Labour but not the protestant establishment and the SNP, so I have always seen it as anti SNP feeling in catholics rather than anti-catholic feeling in the SNP.
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franko
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In the 1970's and 80's in particular, the SNP was perceived, rightly, in my view, by many catholics as a lower middle class, overwhelmingly protestant party, and one that reflected, and was motivated by, small town, lower middle class presbyterian interests and concerns.
Catholics were, to a large extent, unskilled labourers in the numerous steel works which surrounded Lanarkshire. I worked in Clydesdale Steel and Tube Works where there were very few (if any), catholic gaffers and where there was one catholic tradesman out of about 50 or 60 in the 'cutting shop' in 'No 2 mill' in 1984 - the labourers were more divided in terms of religious adherence, though catholics probably edged it in this department.
There was anti-SNP feeling amongst the catholic community, and little wonder, given some of the 'orange' families who were associated with them in our districts. At a street level, particularly in such areas as north Lanarkshire, catholics simply did not vote for them. It was a bourgeois party with a fairly substantial working class orange vote, as that segment of the WC had began to desert the tories in droves.
The catholic working class community voted solidly for the Labour Party as it was in their economic, social, religious and ethnic interests to do so. This is no longer the case, at least to the degree that it was true in the past.
Scottish politics now offers the opportunity to put some of these bad memories for catholics into the dustbin of history. That the SNP appears to be transforming itself into some form of 'new SNP' worries me and many others however.
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franko
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Apologies Scott2006 - your figures in relation to the Tory vote are correct mate.
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Mctosh45
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Franko,
In Dundee the opposite was true, it has a large Irish/Scots Catholic community 40,000/50,000, Dundee in the 70's/80'/s was Scotland's second industrial city and predominantly working class, and consistanly voted for the S.N.P. Holding Dundee East throughout that period and running Labour close second for most of it in Dundee West.
As for the S.N.P. taking on a new guise,are you refering to Tom Farmer's donation?Well unlike "New Labour" I don't think his money is going to buy him much influence there.
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Gung-ho
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| franko wrote: | In the 1970's and 80's in particular, the SNP was perceived, rightly, in my view, by many catholics as a lower middle class, overwhelmingly protestant party, and one that reflected, and was motivated by, small town, lower middle class presbyterian interests and concerns.
Catholics were, to a large extent, unskilled labourers in the numerous steel works which surrounded Lanarkshire. I worked in Clydesdale Steel and Tube Works where there were very few (if any), catholic gaffers and where there was one catholic tradesman out of about 50 or 60 in the 'cutting shop' in 'No 2 mill' in 1984 - the labourers were more divided in terms of religious adherence, though catholics probably edged it in this department.
There was anti-SNP feeling amongst the catholic community, and little wonder, given some of the 'orange' families who were associated with them in our districts. At a street level, particularly in such areas as north Lanarkshire, catholics simply did not vote for them. It was a bourgeois party with a fairly substantial working class orange vote, as that segment of the WC had began to desert the tories in droves.
The catholic working class community voted solidly for the Labour Party as it was in their economic, social, religious and ethnic interests to do so. This is no longer the case, at least to the degree that it was true in the past.
Scottish politics now offers the opportunity to put some of these bad memories for catholics into the dustbin of history. That the SNP appears to be transforming itself into some form of 'new SNP' worries me and many others however. |
Which shows us that the unionist's have and always will try to use the Tactics of the gutter to fend off the resurgance of the Pro-independance parties The SNP have wrongly IMHO been laballed as a orange party in the WOS by the Labour establisment in order to keep the catholic vote.
If just because certain Families were Orange and in the SNP means that for some Catholics would not vote for the SNP then that is a sad reflection of the bigotry which the blights Scottish society. That being said my experiance in the Central belt was one of "Am no voting for the SNP their just a bunch oh Tartan Tories" Or "am no votin for the SNP bunch oh Taigs that want to do away wi the Queen and Great Britain" And the ever popular am no Votin for Labour or the SNP their a Catholics but that is only in my part of the Central belt. I dare say that everywhere in Scotland will have a different slant on this. The Orange order in Falkirk is very much split 75/25 Labour/Tory. The SNP gains very little support from the unionist orange order in this part of Scotland. But if the Catholic commuinty cannot see that Labour has lied to them for close on four decades in the pursuit of and the retention of power the God help them because the Labour Party will not.
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neil8r
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I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned that the loyalty towards the Labour party by the Catholic community in west central Scotland is kept going by the fact there is such a large amount of Catholic councillers. And this is traditionally why many Protestants didn't vote for Labour.
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Rinty
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fAgain neil this differs from area to area, staunchly protestant/loyalist areas like Larkhall etc have always had strong Labour votes, in my area Drongan is the village most associated with loyalism and Orangeism yet have had a Labour councillor who is a catholic for over twenty years.
I think that it is too big a generalisation, the majority of scotlands working class communities, particularly in the central belt, have voted Labour in recent decades whether they are catholic protestant or neither.
To get back on thread though I think Franko's original post is correct. Some catholics did have a problem with the SNP and that attitude is changing very much.
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franko
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| neil8r wrote: | | I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned that the loyalty towards the Labour party by the Catholic community in west central Scotland is kept going by the fact there is such a large amount of Catholic councillers. And this is traditionally why many Protestants didn't vote for Labour. |
That is some reason for not voting Labour - you would think people would be more interested in the policies a party stood for rather than iindividual candidates' religious affiliation, would you not?
The Labour Party in Lanarkshire, apart from a not insignificant skilled worker trade union element, was and probably still is - if the councillors are anything to go by - overwhelmingly catholic and of Irish descent. However, they detest being so decribed and actually bend over backwards to accomodate Orange marches, civic receptions for orange lodges and for freemasons lodges etc.
The left when I was in the party were always vocal on issues like Ireland, CND and imperialism all over the world. Those who stifled debate about such issues, especially anything to do with Ireland, or anything that would draw attention to their own Irish catholic origins - were the catholic Labour councillors.
Some areas, such as Larkhall, Harthill and a number of others are the exception to this rule. Yet remember this, Labour would never be elected without the votes of protestants, however defined.
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neil8r
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Re: f | Rinty wrote: |
I think that it is too big a generalisation, the majority of scotlands working class communities, particularly in the central belt, have voted Labour in recent decades whether they are catholic protestant or neither.
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Nope, i think its fairly accurate for the area i described, West Central Scotland.
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neil8r
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| franko wrote: |
That is some reason for not voting Labour - you would think people would be more interested in the policies a party stood for rather than iindividual candidates' religious affiliation, would you not?
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Much in the same way as people questioning religious affiliations of the SNP, funnily enough it seems quite similar doesn't it 
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franko
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| neil8r wrote: | | franko wrote: |
That is some reason for not voting Labour - you would think people would be more interested in the policies a party stood for rather than iindividual candidates' religious affiliation, would you not?
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Much in the same way as people questioning religious affiliations of the SNP, funnily enough it seems quite similar doesn't it |
Sorry mate, am no questioning anyones religious affiliation at all, anywhere, or at least, not to make a sectarian point. I did mention the class and religious basis of the SNP and how it was viewed by catholics up until quite recently. I was not trying to make a sectarian point, but a political one.
You are, of course, correct, anyone who thinks they can easily disentangle politics, socio-economic profile, nationality, ethnicity and religion is kidding themselves on. Not just here in Scotland, but in every country in the world mate.
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Robert Craig
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Hi Franko
It seems like you are saying you wouldn't vote SNP in the past, because they were percieved to be anti-Catholic, but neither would you vote for them now, because they are pro-business.
There's always SSP / Solidarity!
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franko
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| Robert Craig wrote: | Hi Franko
It seems like you are saying you wouldn't vote SNP in the past, because they were percieved to be anti-Catholic, but neither would you vote for them now, because they are pro-business.
There's always SSP / Solidarity! |
Aye Robert, that is who I've voted for the last number of times, the SSP.
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Rinty
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h | Quote: | | Nope, i think its fairly accurate for the area i described, West Central Scotland. |
I dont agree. I think you will find that Labour were supported in the areas where they won power by more protestants than not (Larkhall, Harthill, Cumnock, Kilwinning etc). To say that most protestants didnt support Laour would be the case in certain wards but not overall.
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IF Convenor
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I think this stuff about the SNP being anti-Catholic is just a bunch of Labour scare tactic crap. The SNP has never been anti-Catholic, and the stuff you posted about the origins of the party doesn't match the (academic) accounts of the SNP's history I've read.
Don't believe anything Labour tells you.
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Rinty
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yThere was the thing with Billy Fox and the papal visit in 1982 but they are isolated incidents. My father told me that there would often be letters from bishops to catholic parishes before elections warning of the dangers of an independent Scotland run by masons and orangemen. I don't know if it's true or not. You can see where the paranoia of such a thing came from with our country's history of these things in the past but if it did exist I would iamagine it was long gone by the 70's.
My experience is that Labour will be happy to be as catholic as they need to be if thats where the votes are and as orange as they need to be elsewhere. Although, the church, the lodge and the rest dont have any real influence over elections any more, at least nowhere near what they used to.
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franko
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| IF Convenor wrote: | I think this stuff about the SNP being anti-Catholic is just a bunch of Labour scare tactic crap. The SNP has never been anti-Catholic, and the stuff you posted about the origins of the party doesn't match the (academic) accounts of the SNP's history I've read.
Don't believe anything Labour tells you. |
Whay academic accounts would that be mate? BTW leave Jack Brand - my university supervisor for my dissertation - out of your recommended reading list.
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neil8r
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Re: h | Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | Nope, i think its fairly accurate for the area i described, West Central Scotland. |
I dont agree. I think you will find that Labour were supported in the areas where they won power by more protestants than not (Larkhall, Harthill, Cumnock, Kilwinning etc). To say that most protestants didnt support Laour would be the case in certain wards but not overall. |
Two of the places you mention aren't in West Central Scotland also you seem to ignore the major place of the area. Glasgow. And within Glasgow in the past, some protestants didn't vote for Labour because of the huge Catholic make up of the local party, they voted for one's like the Progressives.
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Lothian Sky
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Ive been a member of the SNP for almost 20 years, and I can genuinely say have witnesses no religious bias whatsoever in the party. Labour used to go around the doors saying "Home Rule=Rome Rule", so this just shows how low they have stooped in the past. Personally I dont give a hoot what religion anybody is. I'm not catholic, but I know lots of party members who are. In fact, John Beare, the guy who just thumped Labour in Markinch, Fife, is a Dubliner!
The SNP's job is to get elected and deliver independence. I cant see any other party coming close to delivering it. When it happens, we will be able to choose what party we want, be it socialist or tory or liberal. If you are a staunch socialist and refuse to support independence unless its on your own personal terms, then by all means vote SSP.
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Rinty
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tWhich two? Surely Kilwinning is both west and central. I live in Cumnock and always thought that we were both west of scotland and central belt???
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neil8r
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Re: t | Rinty wrote: | | Which two? Surely Kilwinning is both west and central. I live in Cumnock and always thought that we were both west of scotland and central belt??? |
I would say they are West and West central is essentially Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire and Dunbartonshire.
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Corby Boy
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It is good Franko that you have raised this issue. It is one that has been covered by politics.ie also. Where surprise has been expressed by the posters there at Irish Catholics in Scotland voting for unionist parties, where as they support obvious nationalist/republican movements at home.
It is a measure of the maturity of Scottish politics now re: SNP and the other pro-independence parties, and the recognition of the unique contribution Irish Catholics and their descendants have made to Scottish society and drawing on the commonalities that exist. Rather than the paranoid sectarian/divisive politics of the 20's.
(Indeed arguably the most famous modern Scots of all are of part Irish Catholic stock - Sean Connery and Billy Connolly!).
The Orange vote if it still exists is most definitely a Tory/Labour and perhaps Lib Dem phenomena.
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Theresa
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Lothian Sky wrote:
| Quote: | | I've been a member of the SNP for almost 20 years, and I can genuinely say have witnesses no religious bias whatsoever in the party. Labour used to go around the doors saying "Home Rule=Rome Rule", so this just shows how low they have stooped in the past. |
Plaid Cymru suffered the same accusations by Labour. It was a no-win situation because Labour simultaneously accused Plaid of being pacifist about the war and violent regarding home-rule politics.
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franko
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| IF Convenor wrote: | I think this stuff about the SNP being anti-Catholic is just a bunch of Labour scare tactic crap. The SNP has never been anti-Catholic, and the stuff you posted about the origins of the party doesn't match the (academic) accounts of the SNP's history I've read.
Don't believe anything Labour tells you. |
IF Convenor, you really need to read about the genesis of the SNP. They were formed at a time of crisis for the Scottish lower middle class. While there was a strong anti-establishment element there were also many influenced by the fascistic ramblings of Andrew Dewar Gibb and others who felt that 'Scoto-Irish' catholics were destroying Scotland by their poverty, their concentration in slum areas in west central Scotland, their unwillingness to inter-marry with Scots (not that they wanted that), their identification with communal values, their identification with catholicism, their loyalty to Ireland, the fact that, in the midst of grinding poverty, they had built, through their own pennies, some of the most beautiful churches, how they looked after their poor, before such a thing as the 'welfare state' existed, how they suffered through poverty, but kept one eye on the ball, and made sure their children were educated, how they founded Celtic FC and ensured it survived through all tribulations that were put in its way, and how they have now emerged post 1945 and the welfare state, the equal, if not better in terms of educational achievement, than any similar minority community in western europe.
The famine Irish have made a fantastic contribution to this country, not only through the navvies, the builders and miners and steelworkers, but now through their sons and daughters who have entered the professions and are now the equal of anyone.
It was said that it took the Irish in America until 1921 to be accepted - the Scottish Irish are now climbing the heights of achievement in this country - not bad for unwashed and unwanted fenian scum?
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franko
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BTW forgot to mention - academics are now questioning why it is, of everywhere that the Irish settled, that Scotland was the last place the Irish managed to achieve anything like equality in terms of employment etc? The old Scottish Freemason and Orange industries were destroyed by deindustrialisation, the ability to discriminate against fenian bastards was wiped out in the pits and the steelworks, as in the shipyards and the printing industries.
No wonder our parents kept telling us to get educated and never, ever, go into these industries; then again, maybe we are making it up? Maybe all those anecdotal stories were all figments of our parents imaginations? Somehow I dont think so, somehow I think there was the truth being carried down through the generations?
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neil8r
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| franko wrote: | BTW forgot to mention - academics are now questioning why it is, of everywhere that the Irish settled, that Scotland was the last place the Irish managed to achieve anything like equality in terms of employment etc? The old Scottish Freemason and Orange industries were destroyed by deindustrialisation, the ability to discriminate against fenian bastards was wiped out in the pits and the steelworks, as in the shipyards and the printing industries.
No wonder our parents kept telling us to get educated and never, ever, go into these industries; then again, maybe we are making it up? Maybe all those anecdotal stories were all figments of our parents imaginations? Somehow I dont think so, somehow I think there was the truth being carried down through the generations? |
Did they arrive elsewhere on they same scale in comparison to the size of Scotland? Surely that must have something to do with it
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franko
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If they did who cares? Racists? What about the fantastic contribution the Irish made to building our country? All Scottish nationalists that are outward looking will recognise that - dont you?
Asylum seekers welcome!!!
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SLG
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| franko wrote: | | It was said that it took the Irish in America until 1921 to be accepted - the Scottish Irish are now climbing the heights of achievement in this country - not bad for unwashed and unwanted fenian scum? |
You say 'unwashed and unwanted fenian scum' like that is what every Scot thought of them as.
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neil8r
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| franko wrote: | If they did who cares? Racists? What about the fantastic contribution the Irish made to building our country? All Scottish nationalists that are outward looking will recognise that - dont you?
Asylum seekers welcome!!! |
You obviously don't want to listen to my question as it probably doesn't suit your agenda, but i would imagine if a group of people arrive within a country on a large scale within a quick time-frame then it's obviously going to cause problems which could get carry on for a long time, especially in a country such as Scotland where the major employers in the last hundred years(i.e. Heavy Engineering) had been in perpetual decline.
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Avatar
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Neil8r raises a good point - look at England today for example and the amount of negativity surrounding muslims at the moment, now its not exactly the same situation but im sure there are similar factors - a large amount of immigration of people with a different religion. Add to that the fact people wouldn't have been as educated as they are today, there wouldn't have been many "one Scotland , many cultures" posters about.
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IF Convenor
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| franko wrote: | | IF Convenor wrote: | I think this stuff about the SNP being anti-Catholic is just a bunch of Labour scare tactic crap. The SNP has never been anti-Catholic, and the stuff you posted about the origins of the party doesn't match the (academic) accounts of the SNP's history I've read.
Don't believe anything Labour tells you. |
IF Convenor, you really need to read about the genesis of the SNP. They were formed at a time of crisis for the Scottish lower middle class. While there was a strong anti-establishment element there were also many influenced by the fascistic ramblings of Andrew Dewar Gibb and others who felt that 'Scoto-Irish' catholics were destroying Scotland by their poverty, their concentration in slum areas in west central Scotland, their unwillingness to inter-marry with Scots (not that they wanted that), their identification with communal values, their identification with catholicism, their loyalty to Ireland, the fact that, in the midst of grinding poverty, they had built, through their own pennies, some of the most beautiful churches, how they looked after their poor, before such a thing as the 'welfare state' existed, how they suffered through poverty, but kept one eye on the ball, and made sure their children were educated, how they founded Celtic FC and ensured it survived through all tribulations that were put in its way, and how they have now emerged post 1945 and the welfare state, the equal, if not better in terms of educational achievement, than any similar minority community in western europe.
The famine Irish have made a fantastic contribution to this country, not only through the navvies, the builders and miners and steelworkers, but now through their sons and daughters who have entered the professions and are now the equal of anyone.
It was said that it took the Irish in America until 1921 to be accepted - the Scottish Irish are now climbing the heights of achievement in this country - not bad for unwashed and unwanted fenian scum? |
The point is, as I posted, I have read about the genesis of the SNP and the history (produced by academics) I've read does not match the history you have posted. I admit it was several years ago that I read that particular book and my memory could be a bit faulty but I am sure it would have stuck in my mind if they were as bigoted as you say.
Unfortunately I cannot check my references right now as the stuff I have read is at home and I'm about 4000 miles from home. I'll look it up when I get back at the end of the month.
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Mctosh45
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Franko,
Even if the roots of S.N.P. are as you say ,that by definition was in the past and bears no relation to the party now, or Scotland for that matter. I suggest you move on and strive for an all embraceing united and free Scotland.
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Corby Boy
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Franko, I think most of us recognise the contribution Scots of Irish descent have made to the country and that their instutions like Glasgow Celtic are very much part of modern Scottish life. I would suggest nearly as many Scots who have no interest in Ireland as such, support Celtic, as those who do.
Bottom line is the politics of the past should remain there, and McTosh45 is spot on.
As Irish Republicans you should welcome the modern impetus for Scottish independence and the warm noises for it coming from the Catholic community. As well as the other communities that live in the country, because at the end of the day it is a civic nationalism based upon a multi-cultural Scotland, as much about being proud of the nations historical identity.
Religious antagonism and prejudice has no role in this movement.
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parkhead_rfb
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this is typical of this site. franko points out that there was anti irish racism in scotland and instead of accepting that and decrying it people seem to want to hide it or belittle what went on.
the anti irish racism was wrong then and so will be any racism which springs up against the polish or muslims now.
I am ashamed of any racism these people experience in scotland now, it happens so i dont see why people cant just accept it happened against the irish in the past and also there are figures to show it still happens to this day in certain areas.
Franko also doesnt seem to be against independence. just because myself and franko dont woop and cheer at every mention of scottish culture and its history doesnt make us any less pro independence.
I have problems with the snp not due to bigotry but the fact they are a party with no real principles. if were going to go to the bother of independence i would rather it be a proper change with a move towards social democratic policies.
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Corby Boy
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No one is denying there was ever racism against the irish, and sure there is probably still some going on now.
No one expects you to woop and cheer either. Leave that at Celtic Park.
Believe it or not, a social democratic Scotland is something I want and a lot of the posters on this site.
Whether you intend it or not, the perception you give is that the Irish have always been hard done by and everything that is Scottish in identity is some how diametrically opposite to what you believe in and pour scorn on it and criticise it. Many of the posters get frustrated with this.
By accepting a social democratic independent Scotland at least you must acknowledge the commonality of that, with what the republican movement in Ireland want.
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George
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | this is typical of this site. franko points out that there was anti irish racism in scotland and instead of accepting that and decrying it people seem to want to hide it or belittle what went on.
the anti irish racism was wrong then and so will be any racism which springs up against the polish or muslims now.
I am ashamed of any racism these people experience in scotland now, it happens so i dont see why people cant just accept it happened against the irish in the past and also there are figures to show it still happens to this day in certain areas.
Franko also doesnt seem to be against independence. just because myself and franko dont woop and cheer at every mention of scottish culture and its history doesnt make us any less pro independence.
I have problems with the snp not due to bigotry but the fact they are a party with no real principles. if were going to go to the bother of independence i would rather it be a proper change with a move towards social democratic policies. |
It saddens me to read this misrepresentation of the thread of debate. It is clear to me that Parkhead and Franko have a need to demonise their country of birth, almost certainly as a means of convincing themselves that they too are involved in an ongoing 'struggle'.
The racism that they speak, or more accurately prejudice, was experienced by my own relatives in my native Greenock and also Airdrie.
Does it still go on? Perhaps but probably by both sides and so insignificant as to be almost negligable. Nepotism and corruption are much more prevalent, particularly in the public sector.
This prejudice or racism is not unique to Scotland but has occurred in every other country against peoples who are percieved as different; be it by ethnicity, culture, race or nationality.
If you read through this thread it is apparent that no-one has denied that this has happened in Scotland, let alone hide it or attempt to belittle it.
However, to me Parkhead you appear desperate for people to post messages in this vein.......perhaps as a means of justifying your own feelings, but they haven't (Save for the odd Barney Rubblesque Chuckle Head).
I have a background that includes Scottish, Irish and English......I am most definitely Scottish by birth and by choice. I have a deep respect for the Irish community in Scotland and indeed for the Republic itself, an example I desperately hope that we can emulate sooner rather than later.
However your postings seem to be no more than a pathetic attempt at provoking any kind of aggressive reaction that you can interprate as 'anti Irish/catholic.
For the record I am anti bigotry.....both sides.
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Corby Boy
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Well said George. Sometimes I despair of whether Parkhead can actually read, his 'specs' only filter out the words he can comprehend in, a them and us mentality.
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parkhead_rfb
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| George wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | this is typical of this site. franko points out that there was anti irish racism in scotland and instead of accepting that and decrying it people seem to want to hide it or belittle what went on.
the anti irish racism was wrong then and so will be any racism which springs up against the polish or muslims now.
I am ashamed of any racism these people experience in scotland now, it happens so i dont see why people cant just accept it happened against the irish in the past and also there are figures to show it still happens to this day in certain areas.
Franko also doesnt seem to be against independence. just because myself and franko dont woop and cheer at every mention of scottish culture and its history doesnt make us any less pro independence.
I have problems with the snp not due to bigotry but the fact they are a party with no real principles. if were going to go to the bother of independence i would rather it be a proper change with a move towards social democratic policies. |
It saddens me to read this misrepresentation of the thread of debate. It is clear to me that Parkhead and Franko have a need to demonise their country of birth, almost certainly as a means of convincing themselves that they too are involved in an ongoing 'struggle'.
The racism that they speak, or more accurately prejudice, was experienced by my own relatives in my native Greenock and also Airdrie.
Does it still go on? Perhaps but probably by both sides and so insignificant as to be almost negligable. Nepotism and corruption are much more prevalent, particularly in the public sector.
This prejudice or racism is not unique to Scotland but has occurred in every other country against peoples who are percieved as different; be it by ethnicity, culture, race or nationality.
If you read through this thread it is apparent that no-one has denied that this has happened in Scotland, let alone hide it or attempt to belittle it.
However, to me Parkhead you appear desperate for people to post messages in this vein.......perhaps as a means of justifying your own feelings, but they haven't (Save for the odd Barney Rubblesque Chuckle Head).
I have a background that includes Scottish, Irish and English......I am most definitely Scottish by birth and by choice. I have a deep respect for the Irish community in Scotland and indeed for the Republic itself, an example I desperately hope that we can emulate sooner rather than later.
However your postings seem to be no more than a pathetic attempt at provoking any kind of aggressive reaction that you can interprate as 'anti Irish/catholic.
For the record I am anti bigotry.....both sides. |
for the record certain figures show that the irish in scotland and their descendants still suffer discrimination in certain forms, there is no both sides argument there. Its pretty hard to discriminate systematically against an indigenous people unless you actually occupy the place physically.
Thats not to say it doesnt exist on a personal level but at this point there are no figures to back up that both sides argument.
Also if you agree with there being anti irish bias whats the problem when people bring it up? in my opionion people who object to this either refer to two defences.
The first is to ignore the extent of it or that it even occured and the second is to use the both sides of the same coin argument. which cant really be backed up with any weight of evidence, I will admit I am wrong if you can provide some.
Finally the system in the 26 county state is most certainly not something i aspire scotland to be. The 26 county state is one with an incredibly poor welfare state system, poor employment trends and various other issues. Personally I would rather stay in the UK than have what they have in the 26 counties.
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azzuri
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Parkhead, do you mean Scots of Irish descent suffer discrimination or those who were born in Ireland and have emigrated to Scotland?
Just trying to clear this up...
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Avatar
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"for the record certain figures show that the irish in scotland and their descendants still suffer discrimination in certain forms"
what figures and forms would they be? I know tonnes of Irish people who live and have lived in Scotland without feeling discriminated against, now this isn't obviously to say it doesn't happen, im sure everyone has felt discriminated against on some level or another but you seem to be implying that it happens on a large scale simply because they are Irish or from Irish descent which certainly isn't the case.
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SLG
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That's a point, the Irish Irish that I know in Scotland do very well - in Edinburgh anyway. The Scots Irish might be a different story. But tbh, I'm unable to distinguish between a Scots Irish and a Scots Scots, even if such a differntiation can exist outside what school did you go to etc (and my proddy sister sends her kids to a Catholic school btw).
And to continue being honest, Franko sounds to me like someone who harks back to the days of 'unwashed and unwanted fenian scum' as something to fight against rather than someone who wants to look forward. Parkhead wants Scots nats to stop being romantic about their view of Scotland, well mibee he and Franko need to stop being romantic about the Scots Irish (note not Irish now) community in Scotland and start living in the real world.
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Corby Boy
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Tri-colour tinted spectacles at play. Irish politics as always is plagued by discrimination and an obsession with it.
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Lothian Sky
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I'm bored with this. The folk who occupy this board are in no way anti-Irish or anti-catholic, and you know it. I dont see why I should feel apologetic for others. What do you want from us? Plenty other sites you could go for an argument lads. I thought we were for a common purpose, maybe I was wrong!
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parkhead_rfb
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| azzuri wrote: | Parkhead, do you mean Scots of Irish descent suffer discrimination or those who were born in Ireland and have emigrated to Scotland?
Just trying to clear this up... |
the figures taken on in reports etc have shown that there is discrimination against those of irish descent in certain areas. I tried to put one report here previously but it wasnt exactly in a great format and was difficult to read.
Discrimination against those of irish descent is in no way as obvious or as institutionalised as it once was but there are still undercurrents of it.
It should still be constantly challenged though.
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IF Convenor
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Then challenge those who discriminate, not those who don't (i.e. us).
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parkhead_rfb
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| IF Convenor wrote: | | Then challenge those who discriminate, not those who don't (i.e. us). |
I do. And i also challenge those who palm it off as a non problem or purely a west of scotland one.
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IF Convenor
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It's not palming it off, it's the truth. You're the one who claims to have the data, so tell us what your data shows about discrimination outwith the Central Belt.
You have a narrow bigoted view, and it comes across in almost every post. It's tiresome.
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parkhead_rfb
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| IF Convenor wrote: | It's not palming it off, it's the truth. You're the one who claims to have the data, so tell us what your data shows about discrimination outwith the Central Belt.
You have a narrow bigoted view, and it comes across in almost every post. It's tiresome. |
so your a nationalist that is only concerned about problems in your part of the country? thats a queer nationalism that.
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parkhead_rfb
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also which posts have been bigoted? nice wee term often banded about lets see if you can back it up.
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George
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | also which posts have been bigoted? nice wee term often banded about lets see if you can back it up. |
Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to their prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false. (Wikipedia)
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from their own (Wikipedia)
Enter the term 'bigot' and these two are the first examples given, I'll let others decide which (if any) apply to your postings.
Oh, and I nearly entered a typo in the sentence above by mis-spelling bigot as bogot........thank goodness I noticed it before submitting eh?
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Avatar
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"the figures taken on in reports etc have shown that there is discrimination against those of irish descent in certain areas. I tried to put one report here previously but it wasnt exactly in a great format and was difficult to read.
Discrimination against those of irish descent is in no way as obvious or as institutionalised as it once was but there are still undercurrents of it.
It should still be constantly challenged though."
In Glasgow at football matches? well yeah I agree, I dont know much about the whole Rangers/Celtic malarky though - are some rangers fans discriminatory against celtic fans based on the fact they are of Irish descent or is it more to do with religion or a bit of both? for example would they have the same problem with an Irish protestant or a Scottish Catholic? or does it only relevant if they support celtic?
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IF Convenor
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | And i also challenge those who palm it off as a non problem or purely a west of scotland one. |
| IF Convenor wrote: | | It's not palming it off, it's the truth. You're the one who claims to have the data, so tell us what your data shows about discrimination outwith the Central Belt. |
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | so your a nationalist that is only concerned about problems in your part of the country? thats a queer nationalism that. |
Listen Parky, you rightly noted the problem is largely confined to the west of Scotland, I generously expanded that to include the whole Central Belt, and now you are trying to say I'm only concerned about my own part of the country. I was answering your point, dummy.
I notice you weren't able to refute what I said about it being a Central Belt problem, btw.
You are a one-track bigot who is no longer worth my time. Have a nice life.
As previously stated, you know exactly where to find me if you want to continue this discussion in person. It will not be continued online.
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SLG
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | the figures taken on in reports etc have shown that there is discrimination against those of irish descent in certain areas. I tried to put one report here previously but it wasnt exactly in a great format and was difficult to read.
Discrimination against those of irish descent is in no way as obvious or as institutionalised as it once was but there are still undercurrents of it.
It should still be constantly challenged though. |
How can you tell the difference between someone of Irish descent and someone of non-Irish descent?
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parkhead_rfb
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| Avatar wrote: | "the figures taken on in reports etc have shown that there is discrimination against those of irish descent in certain areas. I tried to put one report here previously but it wasnt exactly in a great format and was difficult to read.
Discrimination against those of irish descent is in no way as obvious or as institutionalised as it once was but there are still undercurrents of it.
It should still be constantly challenged though."
In Glasgow at football matches? well yeah I agree, I dont know much about the whole Rangers/Celtic malarky though - are some rangers fans discriminatory against celtic fans based on the fact they are of Irish descent or is it more to do with religion or a bit of both? for example would they have the same problem with an Irish protestant or a Scottish Catholic? or does it only relevant if they support celtic? |
the issue is far, far more complex than just rangers and celtic. I see why some can be conned into thinking that though with the mass media's constant slant on things.
I myself was contacted to by panorama when they made a documentary about sectarianism in scotland. I was going to appear on behalf of my organisation on the programme.
When i spoke to the person involved it turned out what they wanted was for me to sit with a celtic top on and talk about supporting celtic and being in a republican flute band. The issues are two totally seperate issues and parts of my life but they wanted to stick them together in one glib little package. when i told them i would be representing the west of scotland band alliance so thats all i would speak about they werent interested. What they really wanted was an idiot to play a flute in a celtic top and say things like " a pure hate proddies so a do". that would have suited there agenda lovely.
on your other question northern protestants tended to fit in in scotland due to having the same religion, british identity and background of heavy industry. an interesting fact though is that in one point there were more anti irish catholic organisations in glasgow than there were actual irish catholics in the city. which sort of blows the reaction to a large influx of immigrants theory out of the water.
The discrimination i was on about was in terms of health etc. thats the type of area that studies have concentrated on.
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parkhead_rfb
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| SLG wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | the figures taken on in reports etc have shown that there is discrimination against those of irish descent in certain areas. I tried to put one report here previously but it wasnt exactly in a great format and was difficult to read.
Discrimination against those of irish descent is in no way as obvious or as institutionalised as it once was but there are still undercurrents of it.
It should still be constantly challenged though. |
How can you tell the difference between someone of Irish descent and someone of non-Irish descent? |
by asking i suppose. I would consider myself of irish descent. I am scottish though.
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Avatar
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"an interesting fact though is that in one point there were more anti irish catholic organisations in glasgow than there were actual irish catholics in the city. which sort of blows the reaction to a large influx of immigrants theory out of the water."
What do you think are the causes or main cause?
"The discrimination i was on about was in terms of health etc. thats the type of area that studies have concentrated on."
Do you mean they tend to have poorer health? or there is discrimination within the health service?
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SLG
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | SLG wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | the figures taken on in reports etc have shown that there is discrimination against those of irish descent in certain areas. I tried to put one report here previously but it wasnt exactly in a great format and was difficult to read.
Discrimination against those of irish descent is in no way as obvious or as institutionalised as it once was but there are still undercurrents of it.
It should still be constantly challenged though. |
How can you tell the difference between someone of Irish descent and someone of non-Irish descent? |
by asking i suppose. I would consider myself of irish descent. I am scottish though. |
So before discriminating against someone of Irish descent, the discriminator would have to ask an individual if they are of Irish descent. I find that a bit strange. Why would someone even ask that question in the first place to someone they don't know? Do you often get asked if you're of Irish descent in everyday life?
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parkhead_rfb
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| SLG wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | | SLG wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | the figures taken on in reports etc have shown that there is discrimination against those of irish descent in certain areas. I tried to put one report here previously but it wasnt exactly in a great format and was difficult to read.
Discrimination against those of irish descent is in no way as obvious or as institutionalised as it once was but there are still undercurrents of it.
It should still be constantly challenged though. |
How can you tell the difference between someone of Irish descent and someone of non-Irish descent? |
by asking i suppose. I would consider myself of irish descent. I am scottish though. |
I meant in terms of collecting date for reports etc. in everday life it can be pretty easy to tell really. my surname and the fact i went to a school with saint in the name generally tells you about where my family came from. supporting celtic is also generally seen as a good indicator.
It was a well known fact in glasgow that what school you went to would automatically mean you wouldnt get employed in certain areas. In terms of how much this goes on today i have never really had any direct experience of it as i have been at university rather than trying to make a living in more traditional indistries.
So before discriminating against someone of Irish descent, the discriminator would have to ask an individual if they are of Irish descent. I find that a bit strange. Why would someone even ask that question in the first place to someone they don't know? Do you often get asked if you're of Irish descent in everyday life? |
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SLG
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | I meant in terms of collecting date for reports etc. in everday life it can be pretty easy to tell really. my surname and the fact i went to a school with saint in the name generally tells you about where my family came from. supporting celtic is also generally seen as a good indicator.
So if you're of Irish descent, but didn't go to a Catholic school you'd be alright?
It was a well known fact in glasgow that what school you went to would automatically mean you wouldnt get employed in certain areas. In terms of how much this goes on today i have never really had any direct experience of it as i have been at university rather than trying to make a living in more traditional indistries. |
I'm definitely not denying this went on. And I'm not denying that there will be a few folk who are still in business try to keep it going. I'm questioning how practical it is nowadays, when every second person is now a Celtic fan due to glory-hunting, kids from all backgrounds go to catholic schools because they are often better than neighbouring schools, and we've had much more mixing of the communities so someone from a primarily Irish background can have a Scottish name from their father and someone from a primarily Scottish background can have an Irish name from their father.
In addition as far as I'm aware, there isn't discrimination against the Irish-Irish of which there are loads in Scotland and appear to do very well for themselves. Do you think the Irish-Irish are discriminated against when looking for work in Glasgow?
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parkhead_rfb
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| SLG wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | I meant in terms of collecting date for reports etc. in everday life it can be pretty easy to tell really. my surname and the fact i went to a school with saint in the name generally tells you about where my family came from. supporting celtic is also generally seen as a good indicator.
So if you're of Irish descent, but didn't go to a Catholic school you'd be alright?
It was a well known fact in glasgow that what school you went to would automatically mean you wouldnt get employed in certain areas. In terms of how much this goes on today i have never really had any direct experience of it as i have been at university rather than trying to make a living in more traditional indistries. |
I'm definitely not denying this went on. And I'm not denying that there will be a few folk who are still in business try to keep it going. I'm questioning how practical it is nowadays, when every second person is now a Celtic fan due to glory-hunting, kids from all backgrounds go to catholic schools because they are often better than neighbouring schools, and we've had much more mixing of the communities so someone from a primarily Irish background can have a Scottish name from their father and someone from a primarily Scottish background can have an Irish name from their father.
In addition as far as I'm aware, there isn't discrimination against the Irish-Irish of which there are loads in Scotland and appear to do very well for themselves. Do you think the Irish-Irish are discriminated against when looking for work in Glasgow? |
I know a fair few students etc over from ireland who also work here. One works in celtic park so i would be surprised if it happened there 
I think that it depends on the sector. most of the ones i know would be employed in the service sector which you are less likely to get that kind of thing in. I suppose theres more chance of it still going on in building sites etc.
The thing with surnames etc doesnt stop it being it happening though even if it isnt practical. sometimes all it would need would be those few details on an application form for it to be binned.
A downturn in that type of discrimination has followed a whole pattern though. its also been seen in the six counties with the decline of traditional industries and a move towards service sector jobs with involvement from multi nationals. multi nationals and larger companies tend to be far less concerned with peoples religion than smaller companies with a history of employing one part of the community.
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SLG
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Aye well like I say I'm sure some of it still does go on and that should not be tolerated. I just don't think it needs to be made into more of an issue than it is. When there is more extreme racism and discrimination going on.
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parkhead_rfb
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| SLG wrote: | | Aye well like I say I'm sure some of it still does go on and that should not be tolerated. I just don't think it needs to be made into more of an issue than it is. When there is more extreme racism and discrimination going on. |
its all part of the same issue though. It just particularly angers me when people make out as if it never really occured or its a "oh your both as bad as each other" scenario.
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George
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
It just particularly angers me when people make out as if it never really occured....... |
Who on this site is guilty of that then? I have said before that you appear to want people to say these things in order to excuse your own apparent bitterness.
Your earlier remark that began "this is typical of this site" was a gross insult to the overwhelming majority of decent posters.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | .....or its a "oh your both as bad as each other" scenario. |
A bigot is a bigot, no matter their political persuasion or religion.....why would saying they are as bad as each other anger you?
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parkhead_rfb
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| George wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: |
It just particularly angers me when people make out as if it never really occured....... |
Who on this site is guilty of that then? I have said before that you appear to want people to say these things in order to excuse your own apparent bitterness.
Your earlier remark that began "this is typical of this site" was a gross insult to the overwhelming majority of decent posters.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | .....or its a "oh your both as bad as each other" scenario. |
A bigot is a bigot, no matter their political persuasion or religion.....why would saying they are as bad as each other anger you? |
it implies the power relationship has always been equal which is nonsense frankly. its also a glib argument applied to those in scotland who support the republican movement. it stops people looking at the deeper issues.
its like saying there are black people who are also racist, no doubt there are but that doesnt mean that the levels of racism are in any way comparable.
I think the fact that this is now a thread with so many pages speaks volumes myself.
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Mctosh45
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Maybe you should move from Glasgow, where you say it's more prevalent?
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Mctosh45
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Just a wee post script, the reason there is so many pages is because you keep going on about it?
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George
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
it implies the power relationship has always been equal which is nonsense frankly. its also a glib argument applied to those in scotland who support the republican movement. it stops people looking at the deeper issues.
|
It implies nothing of the sort. You are demonstrating the typical misrepresentation and imagination that I mentioned earlier. You are arguing against something that you desire me to say. I haven't said it, so you subjectively infer it.
The power relationship statement is meaningless pseudo twaddle. It matters not the religion and political persuasion of MP's, councilors, managers or whatever.......a bigot who happens to be protestant and unionist, catholic and Irish Republican or indeed of no political persuasion but simply detests other people due to a perceived difference is simply a bigot.
As for those in Scotland who support the Republican movement, I consider them to be as insignificant to Scottish society as I do Orangemen.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
its like saying there are black people who are also racist, no doubt there are but that doesnt mean that the levels of racism are in any way comparable.
|
Again a not very subtle attempt at misrepresentation. Comparing levels of bigotry is a different point altogether to the one I made where I compared the bigots themselves.....something that angered you.
I have no idea who discriminates more in Scottish society or who is discriminated against more. Taking both as a proportion of the population then it might be logical to assume that there are more bigots with a protestant leaning than catholic. However on a ration to population it might be equal....it might not, but my feeling is that unlike say thirty years ago when prejudice against catholics was rife, it is insignificant now.
I believe that you exaggerate present day levels of prejudice for reasons I have already given.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
I think the fact that this is now a thread with so many pages speaks volumes myself. |
It shows nothing more than there have been many postings, demonstrating an interest amongst users of the forum and a desire to offer an opinion....or indeed challenge one.
Care to offer an insight into the nature of these volumes as you interpret them?........does this thread demonstrate the "typical nature of this site"?
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parkhead_rfb
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| Mctosh45 wrote: | | Maybe you should move from Glasgow, where you say it's more prevalent? |
my what an insight.
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Mctosh45
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True, but it might widen your horizons.
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azzuri
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....are you avoiding George's post parkhead? 
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Corby Boy
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Parkhead is a lost cause, he is entrenched in his views, clearly incapable of seeing the wider picture.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Corby Boy wrote: | | Parkhead is a lost cause, he is entrenched in his views, clearly incapable of seeing the wider picture. |
and of course people who have disagreed with me are nothing like that at all eh. get a grip of yourself you will find that the vast majority are entrenched in many views.
But then because i dont agree and put up an argument I am entrenched?
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parkhead_rfb
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| George wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: |
it implies the power relationship has always been equal which is nonsense frankly. its also a glib argument applied to those in scotland who support the republican movement. it stops people looking at the deeper issues.
|
It implies nothing of the sort. You are demonstrating the typical misrepresentation and imagination that I mentioned earlier. You are arguing against something that you desire me to say. I haven't said it, so you subjectively infer it.
The power relationship statement is meaningless pseudo twaddle. It matters not the religion and political persuasion of MP's, councilors, managers or whatever.......a bigot who happens to be protestant and unionist, catholic and Irish Republican or indeed of no political persuasion but simply detests other people due to a perceived difference is simply a bigot.
As for those in Scotland who support the Republican movement, I consider them to be as insignificant to Scottish society as I do Orangemen.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
its like saying there are black people who are also racist, no doubt there are but that doesnt mean that the levels of racism are in any way comparable.
|
Again a not very subtle attempt at misrepresentation. Comparing levels of bigotry is a different point altogether to the one I made where I compared the bigots themselves.....something that angered you.
I have no idea who discriminates more in Scottish society or who is discriminated against more. Taking both as a proportion of the population then it might be logical to assume that there are more bigots with a protestant leaning than catholic. However on a ration to population it might be equal....it might not, but my feeling is that unlike say thirty years ago when prejudice against catholics was rife, it is insignificant now.
I believe that you exaggerate present day levels of prejudice for reasons I have already given.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
I think the fact that this is now a thread with so many pages speaks volumes myself. |
It shows nothing more than there have been many postings, demonstrating an interest amongst users of the forum and a desire to offer an opinion....or indeed challenge one.
Care to offer an insight into the nature of these volumes as you interpret them?........does this thread demonstrate the "typical nature of this site"? |
I havent misrepresented anything i put forward an argument. also its good to see a orangeman comparison in there, its good to see the glib comparisions still continuing.
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Mctosh45
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Parkhead, Your looking for a fight where no fight exists. Surely your best course of action would be to vote for independence & get one up on unionists, instead of shaddow boxing here?
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Corby Boy
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I understand your arguments Parkhead so I have a tight hold of myself thank you very much, and I actually appreciate where you and a lot of your compatriots are coming from, and respect that.
What I don't understand, is that you still seem to think that Scotland is stuck in the 20's, in your summation that discrimination is still a major problem now.
Many don't buy that, it was true of the past, it is not so true now. People are more intelligent and informed these days, and more is made of the 'celtic' connections these days rather than the divisions.
Pockets of prejudice still exist, and a lot is made of Celtic/Rangers etc.. by the media but that is the extent of it, in most people's opinions.
The fact that the catholic community irrespective of origin, is seeing the merits of independence is truly an excellent trend that is developing. All of us of a like mind applaud that.
I also applaud the closer ties that are being forged between Scotland and Ireland as we have seen of late, that can only do Scotland, ROI and dare I say it NI good in the long run.
Mctosh45 makes a valid point don't you think?
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franko
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| Mctosh45 wrote: | | Maybe you should move from Glasgow, where you say it's more prevalent? |
Why should he?
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Mctosh45
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To broaden his horizon for one and find out it that in other parts of Scotland don't care that much for petty sectarianism.
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parkhead_rfb
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| Mctosh45 wrote: | | To broaden his horizon for one and find out it that in other parts of Scotland don't care that much for petty sectarianism. |
really? i've seen plenty of it in edinburgh.
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agentmancuso
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| Corby Boy wrote: |
What I don't understand, is that you still seem to think that Scotland is stuck in the 20's, in your summation that discrimination is still a major problem now.
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Some Scots are still stuck in the 20's. The only religious discrimination I have ever come across in Scotland is in the state education system, where the Roman Catholic church has a power of veto over job applicants.
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SLG
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | Mctosh45 wrote: | | To broaden his horizon for one and find out it that in other parts of Scotland don't care that much for petty sectarianism. |
really? i've seen plenty of it in edinburgh. |
What have you seen going on in Edinburgh?
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parkhead_rfb
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| SLG wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | | Mctosh45 wrote: | | To broaden his horizon for one and find out it that in other parts of Scotland don't care that much for petty sectarianism. |
really? i've seen plenty of it in edinburgh. |
What have you seen going on in Edinburgh? |
well for a start theres hearts. a team who have just a sectarian core as rangers.
I've also attended the james connolly commemoration in edinburgh and seen it take place there.
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SLG
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | well for a start theres hearts. a team who have just a sectarian core as rangers. |
Do they? It's always seemed more like a sectarian fringe than a sectarian core to me.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | I've also attended the james connolly commemoration in edinburgh and seen it take place there. |
I've never been, always struck me as more of an old firm day out than anything much to do with James Connolly.
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parkhead_rfb
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| SLG wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | | well for a start theres hearts. a team who have just a sectarian core as rangers. |
Do they? It's always seemed more like a sectarian fringe than a sectarian core to me.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | I've also attended the james connolly commemoration in edinburgh and seen it take place there. |
I've never been, always struck me as more of an old firm day out than anything much to do with James Connolly. |
I've actually seen many hibs tops on the march. the organiser for the james connolly society is also a hibs fan.
as for hearts i think the amount of noise made during the pope's minutes silence shows that it was more than just a small minority.
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SLG
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | I've actually seen many hibs tops on the march. the organiser for the james connolly society is also a hibs fan.
as for hearts i think the amount of noise made during the pope's minutes silence shows that it was more than just a small minority. |
Fair enough. I do know a lot of Hibs fans and non football fans who would like to go but are put off by the Old Firm element.
Come on, I've heard Hibees (albeit very confused ones) who have shouted FTP to Celtic fans. Celtic are a club that have put Irishness and Catholicism at the heart of their identity, football rivalry demands that one set of fans are extraordinarily abusive towards the other. Unlike O'Brien, I tend to believe so much of this is football rivalry that uses the language of sectarianism for historical reasons rather than issues that exist today.
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agentmancuso
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
as for hearts i think the amount of noise made during the pope's minutes silence shows that it was more than just a small minority. |
That's not sectarianism, it's pantomime.
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