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Lochaber

Civic sectarianism (ex 'Stephen asks SNP to partner them')

Aventinian wrote:
I imagine I know a damn sight more about British constitutional law than virtually anyone else here...

I'm sure that this is an accurate statement - i.e. that Aventinian imagines he is expert in constitutional issues but self-praise is a very poor form of recommendation; as Shakespeare wrote "There is not one wise man in twenty that will praise himself".  However, the points which have given rise to this thread are Aventinian's sarcastic sneer (directed at civic nationalism):
Aventinian wrote:
I must try organising a civic racist movement, or
perhaps a civic sectarian one...

To which I have responded that this is not something which could be written by anyone, who has even a modicum of understanding of how the United Kingdom is constituted and the real nature of civic nationalism.  I have cited the examples of
    [1]The exclusion of Catholics in the Act of Succession.  Alex Salmond says of this act "It is high time that the Westminster Parliament recognised that any form of religious discrimination is no longer acceptable". Similarly the chief whip of the Conservative party in the Scottish Parliament, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton MSP calls this act "anachronistic and anomalous injustice". (Compare this with Aventinian - who claims to be a Tory - who treats us to a bigoted rant about the Pope).
    [2]The sectarian basis of the House of Lords - which is divided into Lords Spritual and Lords Temporal.  (Aventinian, as usual,  does not understand the constitutional meaning of this and confuses it with acts of patronage which display a "belief that religious figures can often bring constructive arguments in the Lords".)

The example which Aventinian himself raised - presumably in order to display what he believes to be his "superior" knowledge of constitutional issues - was that of the post of Lord Chancellor. It is a subject of which Aventinian knows very little - as evidenced  by his claim that "we have had a Roman Catholic Lord Chancellor". To anyone who has followed the constitutional issues involved, is risible in its ignorance.

I don't think Aventinian will stop insulting contributors to this forum - but, at least, let it be observed - especially by himself - that he routinely doesn't understand the issues he is writing about.
Lochaber

Re: Civic sectarianism (ex 'Stephen asks SNP to partner them

An example of how united all parties in Scotland are to abolishing civic sectarianism is that even the former Secretary of State, Lord Forsyth who - like myself - is Church of Scotland) is in favour of amending the Act of Settlement:

TELEGRAPH Wed 27 January 1999 wrote:
A PLEA to reform the "grubby" Act that prevents Roman Catholics becoming monarch or marrying the heir to the throne, was delivered last night by Michael Forsyth, the former Tory Scottish Secretary.

In his first major speech since losing his seat at the last general election, Sir Michael said it was remarkable that a government so intent on constitutional reform was not seeking to end the "offensive" aspects of the nearly 300-year-old Act. The 1701 Act of Settlement was designed to ensure a Protestant succession in the aftermath of the "glorious revolution" that saw the ousting of the Catholic James II and his replacement by William and Mary.

It prohibits a Roman Catholic from acceding to the throne and stops the heir to throne from marrying a Catholic. Any royal who does marry a Catholic will lose their place in the order of succession.

He told the Institute of Economic Affairs in London, that the Act treated 10 per cent of British subjects as "second class citizens". Its terms state that the succession would exclude all who "are or shall be reconciled to or hold communion with the See or Church of Rome or shall profess the Popish Religion or shall marry a Papist". He said that "even in the harshly sectarian climate", it scraped through the Commons by a majority of one.

Sir Michael, who is a member of the Church of Scotland, said: "The Act is deeply discriminatory. It does not constructively prescribe that the Sovereign's consort must belong to the Church of England; it is perfectly legal for the monarch to marry a Buddhist, a Hindu or even a Moonie, but not a Roman Catholic. It is the British constitution's grubby little secret and nobody wants to tackle it.

The Act has been used twice in recent times; when Prince Michael of Kent married Baroness Marie Christine von Reibnitz in 1978, and whe the Earl of St Andrews, elder son of the Duke of Kent, married Sylvana Tomaselli in 1988.
frank rizzo

That Aventinian troll is just a tad creepy. Probably listens to Phil Collins and wears turn up trousers.

You know the sort.
Aventinian

Re: Civic sectarianism (ex 'Stephen asks SNP to partner them

Lochaber wrote:
Aventinian wrote:
I imagine I know a damn sight more about British constitutional law than virtually anyone else here...

I'm sure that this is an accurate statement - i.e. that Aventinian imagines he is expert in constitutional issues but self-praise is a very poor form of recommendation; as Shakespeare wrote "There is not one wise man in twenty that will praise himself".  However, the points which have given rise to this thread are Aventinian's sarcastic sneer (directed at civic nationalism)


No, just an understanding that I didn't waste years of my life at university. Anyway, I'm tired of you and your ridiculous nonsense. I've noticed a tendency of idiots, when exposed, to resort to a rather pathetic detached commentary on threads. The rest of your thread is simply twisted words and a complete ignorance of facts. However, I will address one revolting lie in its entirety:

Quote:
(Compare this with Aventinian - who claims to be a Tory - who treats us to a bigoted rant about the Pope).


What in the name of f**k are you on about, you bloody fool? While not specifically in communion with Rome, I have an enormous deal of respect for the Pope and his status as the first bishop. I unswerving supported Ratzinger in the selection process. I am, however, an Anglo-Catholic myself.

A lot of people, myself included, would eventually like to see a resolution between Rome and Canterbury. Since the Eastern Orthodox church appears to be close to such resolution itself, I have a great deal of hope in that regard for the future.

And yes, we have had Roman Catholic Lord Chancellors; I think that point will be extremely obviously to anyone who hasn't simply looked up 'Lord Chancellor' on Wikipedia.
Aventinian

frank rizzo wrote:
That Aventinian troll is just a tad creepy. Probably listens to Phil Collins and wears turn up trousers.

You know the sort.


Ah, when the bitter display themselves, the moron brigade is soon to follow.
Lochaber

Re: Civic sectarianism (ex 'Stephen asks SNP to partner them

Aventinian wrote:
... yes, we have had Roman Catholic Lord Chancellors...

As I have written before, there is no end to Aventinian's lack of knowledge of how the United Kingdom is constituted. Now, with the above (disingenuous) remark, it has become pathetic.

The constitutional issues and debate on the removal of civic sectarianism from the United Kingdom is of real interest and, as I have indicated in previous mailings, one where the SNP and the Scottish Parliament have taken a lead. These are important questions; as Lord Alderdice, the former speaker of the Northern Ireland Parliament, put it in his proposed Lord Chancellor (Tenure of Office) (Amendment) Bill (13 March 1998)

Quote:
One important component of that effort to produce peace and stability in Northern Ireland is to persuade the people that this United Kingdom is a place which does not accept religious difference as an appropriate badge or distinction for public office at any level. Armed with that appreciation, and a commitment to fairness for all our people, I have brought forward a small package of measures whose purpose is to remove religious distinctions as a necessary component of any political office.
At this time considerable efforts are being made on all sorts of fronts to resolve the matter. I pay tribute not just to previous governments here and in Dublin but not least to the current Prime Minister, Mr. Tony Blair, for his untiring efforts to bring peace in Northern Ireland. Every day seems to bring more developments and more evidence of his commitment.
... One important component of that effort to produce peace and stability in Northern Ireland is to persuade the people that this United Kingdom is a place which does not accept religious difference as an appropriate badge or distinction for public office at any level. Armed with that appreciation, and a commitment to fairness for all our people, I have brought forward a small package of measures whose purpose is to remove religious distinctions as a necessary component of any political office.
RadgeJougal

Touched a nerve, Aventinian?

What goes around comes around...
Aventinian

Re: Civic sectarianism (ex 'Stephen asks SNP to partner them

Lochaber wrote:
As I have written before, there is no end to Aventinian's lack of knowledge of how the United Kingdom is constituted. Now, with the above (disingenuous) remark, it has become pathetic.


Would you say I was wrong then? Laughing

The one thing about Wikipedia aficionados who try to appear educated on the internet is that their 'knowledge' is enormously transparent.
Aventinian

RadgeJougal wrote:
Touched a nerve, Aventinian?


I've had to deal with a lot of idiots who like to pretend that they're clever without bothering to put in any work in my life, however I don't particularly like to be accused of being some sort of anti-Catholic in defiance of all logic.
mairead

Och, lets face it Aventinian, anyone who does not agree with your opinions, you regard as an idiot. You never seem to grasp the fact that we ALL have opinions and that just on occasion, you might be wrong. I know that is extremely difficult for you to accept however.
RadgeJougal

Aventinian wrote:
I've had to deal with a lot of idiots who like to pretend that they're clever without bothering to put in any work in my life


Well, between you and Dave Coull, you probably have a lot of experience in that area.
Lochaber

The other ignorant sneer which Aventinian sought to make (against civic nationalism) was to do with racism. (A fine thing you might think from one whose choice of nom de plume has a careless - or is it? - connection to Mussolini) Clearly Aventinian has not heard of the organisation Scots Asians for Independence which promotes civic nationalism in Scotland and is chaired by the SNP politician Bashir Ahmed - the first Scots-Asian to be elected to the Scottish Parliament.

But, since Aventinian was foolish enough to raise the subject of the Lord Chancellor let me run with this further. The Scots anti-fascist author Naomi Mitchison played an important role in the wider movement for Scottish Home Rule. (Naomi was one of the stalwarts of the Scottish Reconstruction Committee, orginally known as the London Scots Self-Government Committee which ran from 1937-1948). In the 1930s Naomi was a journalist in Austria and was heavily involved in smuggling Jewish refugees. In an interview in 1989 she said
Quote:
This was in 1934. Dollfuss, the Chancellor of Austria, shot up the socialist quarter of Vienna where they were resisting his abolition of political opposition. Some of us went there to help, and we did a good lot of police dodging. We also got the news back. A correspondent may find himself or herself involved in the action. Geddy, who was the correspondent of The Telegraph, a conservative paper, joined us in getting people across the frontier. We drove people across disguised as tourists, and we did a bit of passport work. One finds oneself involved in things.
When Naomi says in the interview
Quote:
... we were getting messages through in Welsh, because the Austrian police didn't understand it.
I believe she is making a reference to the Welsh-speaking future Lord Chancellor, Elwyn Jones (the son of a tin-plate rollerman from Llanelli, who then was a journalist in Austria along with the future leader of the Labour Party, Hugh Gaitskell). Elwyn Jones - who was the author in the 30s of left-wing anti-fascist books such as "The Defence of Democracy" -  later became a Nuremberg prosecutor.  I believe - but I do not know for sure - that the first occasion ever in which a Jew gave a reading during a service at Westminster Abbey was at the memorial service, in 1990, for Lord Elwyn-Jones.

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