parkhead_rfb
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the problem isnt really recognised though, the mainstream media tend to use the old both sides are as bad as each other debate when evidence would show, in my opinion anyway, that this isnt the case. im not saying that we are violently oppressed day in day out, but the level of anti irish discrimination which does exist needs to be recognised and tackled.
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azzuri
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I'm not having a go here but where exactly - it's the same on both bloody sides.
All you hear about from the other side is that it's the Labour-run Councils of glasgow which are run by Irish Immigrants who go to parkhead on a saturday that help all the 'f***ans' get a' the top jobs!
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azzuri
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s**t sorry - off-topic again.
this is a bit of a grey area though.
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parkhead_rfb
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celtic fans have been murdered for wearing celtic tops, with the perception being that they were fenians and therefore fair game.
Catholics as a whole in scotland also have to suffer numerous orange order marches year in year out. catholics are barred from the monarchy in scotland, this may seem superficial but it is an example of institutionalised bias.
Catholic schools are seen as creating the sectarian problem rather than being a resonse to it.
Glasgow has to be the only city in the world with a significant history of irish immigration where a st patricks day parade cannot be celebrated without coming under attack.
these are just a few points, its getting late 
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SLG
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | celtic fans have been murdered for wearing celtic tops, with the perception being that they were fenians and therefore fair game. |
Like I said, this has happened with other clubs in Europe. The OldFirm are two of the biggest European teams (or so they keep telling us  ), from the same city. Of course there is going to be violence between the two teams. Any other differences get lumped along with that.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | Catholics as a whole in scotland also have to suffer numerous orange order marches year in year out. catholics are barred from the monarchy in scotland, this may seem superficial but it is an example of institutionalised bias. |
Not just Catholics. We all have to suffer OO marches. Don't think it is only Catholics that have a problem. There are also plenty of Catholics with a Scottish heratige, rather than a Irish one. It's like saying only black people don't like racists. The whole of society suffers and has a responsibility to do something about it. I really don't think it is instisutionalised. There may be some institutions, but certainly not the political institutions. The 1st minister is a Celtic fan. As for the monarchy, they are institutionaly anti-Scots, so I think the afct that they don't like Catholics if probably down the list of reasons to be rid of them for me.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | Glasgow has to be the only city in the world with a significant history of irish immigration where a st patricks day parade cannot be celebrated without coming under attack. |
Well it depends what form that march is going to take. I've seen a few Scots-Irish marches where there are folk in paramilitary gear. Btw, is there a St Andrew's day march going on in Glagow this year?
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | these are just a few points, its getting late |
No prob. Of to bed myself now I think.
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parkhead_rfb
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my point is though that it is only celtic fans who appear to have suffered the loss of life through supporting their club, if you can tell me oterwise then it would disprove my theory that there is a significant discourse here.
i did say catholics as a whole, meaning italian catholics etc.
i have also seen evidence recently that irish catholics and their descendants are still over represented in terms of numbers in jail, unemployment and in terms of ill health. A prominent figure from queens university, whos name escapes me now, also did a talk on this topic in scotland and he was of the opinion that discrimination continues to this day. yes it may not be as bad as it once was but as long as it exists it is unacceptable.
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SLG
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Any form of discrimination is unacceptable. I'd be interested in seeing those stats if you can find them.
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azzuri
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In terms of jail, unemployment and in terms of ill health -
My Irish nationalist lecturer at dundee uni believes that this is not down to discrimination against catholics - but down to the actual catholic church.
It has been shown that since the decline in popularity of the Catholic church in ROI in the early 90s (due to the priest scandals) and the general decline in the 'hold' that the catholic church has over people's lives and state affairs - that a lot of people feel that they have no direction in their lives since the church does not guide them in the way it used to. This is especially prevalent amongst young men. It has been cited as the main reason for increased rates of suicide, ill mental health, alcoholism, crime and drug use in the ROI.
This may give some explanation as to why the rate of the above in Scotland is higher amongst catholics. I'm sure this figure will decline over the next couple of decades however.
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Rinty
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wrongYour lecturer is clearly wrong, and it is also wrong to put the blame for those figures on bigotry directly.
The places where the highest occurences happen (glasgow), also have the lowest attendance of church by those who are considered catholic, so the priest has very little influence. I also believe that this sort of opinion DOES stem from the rabid anti- Irish and anti- Catholic sentiments that were widespread in Scotland before WW2. We see the same stuff being levelled at muslims at the moment ("they cant think for themselves - the church is all pervasive in their lives").
These figures are clearly linked to socio-economic factors, the reason this applies higher to the catholic community in general is due to the high Irish-catholic populations in poorer areas of Glasgow and other cities. Why these ghettoes exist is another subject but could be blamed on the scots attitude to the Irish, but it is a general trend in immigrant populations.
Outside of the cities though, this will not apply. I am sure of you took the figures from my home county of Ayrshire, catholics would not have different figures from others re jail, crime, life expectancy etc.
Ayrshire has as much bigottry, orageism as the rest and has its fair share of catholic schools.
BTW, I object to this thread being moved. I made the original post and I believed that the thread WAS about bigotry and sectarianism and that football cannot be separated from these issues easily. Neil Lennon is one subject where the lines clearly cross and I do not see any reason to move this thread.
In general, I consider threads to be interesting when they DO evolve down different lines and think moving posts in general to be a bit pointless.
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azzuri
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well if thats what you believed the post was about - you posted it in the wrong place originally!
suppose everybody has their opinions on the catholic scenario - lets just leave it at that - looks like we'll never agree.
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parkhead_rfb
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slg i found it whilst searching through journals in the university, i will have a look and see if i can locate it again as i didnt take notes of it as i changed my dissetation topic.
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SLG
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | slg i found it whilst searching through journals in the university, i will have a look and see if i can locate it again as i didnt take notes of it as i changed my dissetation topic. |
Cheers parkheid, it would be god to see what sort of normalisation for Rinties socio-economic factors etc they have done.
Like the sig btw 
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Rinty
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agree | Quote: | | well if thats what you believed the post was about - you posted it in the wrong place originally |
I don't agree azzuri. Surely the issue of whether a particular footballer is singled out for sectarian reasons, in a post at a time when the press and others were calling for his head, is a post in the football section.
In my mind a post like that could evolve into a debate about referees, the public behaviour of footballers, Lennon himself, sectarianism and/or other subjects, but all would still be relevant to the original post and valid to the thread without moving it.
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azzuri
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fair enough.
I made a decision at the time and unfortunately I can't 'unmake' the decision. the threads split for good - no point in going on about it. if you want to further discuss the topic - please do it here. In future if it's a 'grey area' such as this one contact me and let me know why you've posted in in that particular section.
and for the record - lennon is still a wee c**t. 
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andreimack
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...Having read and re-read this thread i find the hipocrasy stunning.Is it to be believed that only catholic celtic supporters are subjected to violence and sectarianism in scotland? No rangers supporters have ever been subjected to violence or sectarian comments?? What i find most stunning however, is that the major protagonist has a posting name of Parkhead_rfb, and the comment one strike!!! PARKHEAD REPUBLICAN FLUTEBAND AND THE HUNGERSTRIKE ON HIS POSTING NAME!!!!! Well i must say you should be applauded for your non sectarian point of view!! it's nice to see that you are not at all affected by bigotry, and have such an objective point of view.Dickheads like you are the reason bigotry will never end, as there is always going to be another clown like yourself, on the other side of the religious divide, who will never see eye to eye because you are both poisened in the head and do not have the brains or abillity to see an objective point,your psyche is to tainted by bigotry to even make a reasonable arguementand before you even try take another look at your posting name and tell me you are not a biggoted idiot.
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RBK
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It happens on both sides. I have said that before on this site. For every tale that parkhead comes out with,another one could be produced to mirror that.
Republicans/Roman Catholics whatever you like to call them have not a monoply on suffering.
This happened in Belfast last weekend. The guy was a young Protestant,out with Catholic friends. One positive point two people helped him, whom I would suppose were Catholics ---
23 October 2005
THIS is the Protestant teenager who was left for DEAD when he was abandoned in a republican stronghold - by HIS OWN taxi driver.
Stephen Donaghy, from Blacks Road, in west Belfast, suffered serious injuries, after he and a pal were set upon by a 30-strong mob on the Andersonstown Road, early yesterday.
Although his friend managed to escape, Stephen was knocked unconscious, after he was repeatedly kicked and punched on the head.
The thugs also hurled full beercans at the two pals.
Said Stephen: "I can't believe this has happened to me.
"I had just dropped off two Catholic friends of mine, and thought I was on my way home.
"I knew something was funny when the taxi driver asked where we were from, and then made excuses about having to meet his brother for something.
"The next thing, he stopped the car outside a chippy, grabbed a baseball bat, opened the door and started calling us Orange b******s. He knew the crowd were waiting for us, and we had no other option but to get out of the car. The next thing I remember is the punches and kicks flying in on my head.
"I am still in a daze about the whole thing."
Stephen was sharing a taxi with three friends before two were dropped off on the Glen Road.
But, when he was on his way home, the taxi driver started quizzing him, before suddenly stopping in the hardline republican area.
Stephen was rescued by two passersby and was rushed to the Royal Victoria Hospital, where his condition was last night described as "stable".
He is now waiting to see a specialist over fears that his right eye may be permanently damaged.
But, he believes that he is very lucky to be alive.
Added Stephen: "I tried to get away, but they kept kicking and punching me.
"The next thing I remember is waking up, and these two fellas helping me - I probably owe them my life.
"I can't see out my of my right eye and I just hope I won't be blinded by the attack.
"The mob were like animals - they were determined to kill us.
"I've no doubt the taxi driver knew that, by dropping us off, we could have ended up being killed. I have no interest in religion and was just out to enjoy myself.
"I have never been in a situation like this before, and it is one I never want to experience again."
The taxi driver was believed to be driving a red-coloured car, and police at Woodbourne have appealed for information.
Said a spokesman: "Police at Woodbourne did move a crowd on in the Andersonstown Road area on Saturday morning, and would appeal for anyone with information on this attack to come forward.
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | the problem isnt really recognised though, the mainstream media tend to use the old both sides are as bad as each other debate when evidence would show, in my opinion anyway, that this isnt the case. im not saying that we are violently oppressed day in day out, but the level of anti irish discrimination which does exist needs to be recognised and tackled. |
what a pile of pish.
1. neil lennon is hated by other teams as he is an annoying wee dick who who winds oppostion players/fans up. plenty of irish catholics have played in scotland for many clubs without the same abuse. it is because of his antics on the park.
2. he is hated so much by rangers fans due to his hatred toward them, spitting on scarves, shouting 'dirty orange bastards' at our fans/dugout.
3. aoden mcgeady is a wee turncoat b****rd, born, bred, educated and brought through by a scottish club and he plays for the republic. turncoat b****rd. no great loss as is overrated pish anyway.
4. ah yes, anti-irish sentiment ' youz ur aw against uz coz wur cafflicks'. well what about the secterianism in glasgow city cooncil, north lanarkshire cooncil where non catholics are a rarity. the discrimated against being given their own state funded education system. and the fact that all have the same access to nhs treatment, education, dss benefits, police/fire/ambulance services amongst others.
5. go away you idiot, you are the type that breeds resentment and bitterness.
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parkhead_rfb
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this site really is superb
to the first guy when you can tell me what is sectarian about having the name parkhead_rfb? we are open to everyone regardless of religion race ethnicity etc, my band is for the promotion of an united Ireland. Also the first strike is there because of a warning i was given maybe you should have thought of that before opening your mouth
also its ironic that someone who says that i cant have a reasoned argument resorts to name calling at the first attempt. you should read up on the actual basis of republicanism you will find that many repiublican heroes have in fact been protestant shock horror!
As for true blue i think you will find that roman catholics also pay council tax which pays for those local services you mention therefore they have a right to use them, try to come up with some sensible arguments at least eh. As for the catholic education systems, which is also funded by council tax, which roman catholics pay, are also common place in England and other nations through the world why is it only in Scotland that they attract such criticisms.
also where have you got your figures for north lanarkshire council? i dont believe council members are made to say what religion they are or are you just assuming this to be the case. i can also assure you that north lanarkshire council have been thee most difficult council in scotland to deal with then applying for republican demonstrations.
As for aiden mcgeady being a turncoat who are you to tell anyone to what nation they should feel more culturally alligned? do you make up the rules as to how a person should define there ethnicity. many sociologists who have studied this particular topic, im pretty sure more than you have, have came to the conclusin that nationality is far more than about your place of birth and indeed british citizenship laws recognise this. im also pretty sure mcgeady pays far more tax than yourself in thic country so by your reasoining he is more entitlesd to use its amenities is that correct?
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RBK
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also its ironic that someone who says that i cant have a reasoned argument resorts to name calling at the first attempt. you should read up on the actual basis of republicanism you will find that many repiublican heroes have in fact been protestant shock horror!
No shock horror from me. I know all about them and many of them rued the day,they threw their lot in with the Roman Catholic irish.
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | this site really is superb
to the first guy when you can tell me what is sectarian about having the name parkhead_rfb? we are open to everyone regardless of religion race ethnicity etc, my band is for the promotion of an united Ireland. Also the first strike is there because of a warning i was given maybe you should have thought of that before opening your mouth
also its ironic that someone who says that i cant have a reasoned argument resorts to name calling at the first attempt. you should read up on the actual basis of republicanism you will find that many repiublican heroes have in fact been protestant shock horror!
As for true blue i think you will find that roman catholics also pay council tax which pays for those local services you mention therefore they have a right to use them, try to come up with some sensible arguments at least eh. As for the catholic education systems, which is also funded by council tax, which roman catholics pay, are also common place in England and other nations through the world why is it only in Scotland that they attract such criticisms.
also where have you got your figures for north lanarkshire council? i dont believe council members are made to say what religion they are or are you just assuming this to be the case. i can also assure you that north lanarkshire council have been thee most difficult council in scotland to deal with then applying for republican demonstrations.
As for aiden mcgeady being a turncoat who are you to tell anyone to what nation they should feel more culturally alligned? do you make up the rules as to how a person should define there ethnicity. many sociologists who have studied this particular topic, im pretty sure more than you have, have came to the conclusin that nationality is far more than about your place of birth and indeed british citizenship laws recognise this. im also pretty sure mcgeady pays far more tax than yourself in thic country so by your reasoining he is more entitlesd to use its amenities is that correct? |
i have no problem with the use of the name parkhead.
united ireland or remaining part of britain, both have good arguments but both are so entrenched in their hatred and bigotry that the majority are sick of them. the ira and uvf etc are nothing more than drug dealing murder gangs. f**k the lot of them.
i think you'll find i did say thar catholics have the same access to all amenities/services as well as their own state funded education system. the point being that such facts hardly back up your anti-irsh pish.
it is well known that north lanarkshire council and glasgow city council are basically catholic mafias. glasgow being particulaly bad. no non catholic provost for over 30 years, now if that was on the other foot you would be crying masonic conspiracy. alex mosson's 'business trips' at my expense to see ra sellik in europe. amongst others.
aiden mcgheadinho is a turncoat b****rd no matter how you dress it up and neil lennon's antics toward rangers fans/dugout is secterian behaviour, no matter how you dress that up either.
what is a republican demonstration, are they the same as orange demonstrations. all marchers are dimwits.
GO AWAY.you are part of the problem as has already been pointed out.
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parkhead_rfb
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unfortunately for you im not going anywhere
you stated that the ira are drug dealers can you back this up? and by that i mean with instances were credible convictions have been obtained and not simply on the word that mcdowell and tabloid newspapers say so? Also you wil find that the pira were highly involved in the group direct action against drug dealers DAAD which took action against drug dealers who tear apart communities.
you will also find that a councilor in north lanarkshire actually has family members who are linked to loyalist terror groups. but asides from that we will ignote the fact that you cant actually produce evidence as to the actual % of catholic glasgow city council members and north lanarkshire council members i will ask you to recognise the political circumstances in the west of scotland were traditionally catholics have voted in high numbers for the labour party where as protestants tended to vote either conservative as well as the fact that high numbers of irish catholics settled in this area so perhaps these could be a reason why they are over represented. Also I dont really think that i could care less if a council was 100% protestant, muslim whatever the point is how this translates into the actual actions of the council. I am assuming that all the labout council candidates were elected in free elections with no gerrymadering of boundaries to ensure a high rc representation so i dont really see your point.
Republican marches are to promote the establishment of a 32 county irish republic, such is our democratic right to do so. Also if you wish to compare educations with myself and many others in the republican movement in scotland im pretty much sure we could prove we are not dimwits as you put it.
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | unfortunately for you im not going anywhere
you stated that the ira are drug dealers can you back this up? and by that i mean with instances were credible convictions have been obtained and not simply on the word that mcdowell and tabloid newspapers say so? Also you wil find that the pira were highly involved in the group direct action against drug dealers DAAD which took action against drug dealers who tear apart communities.
you will also find that a councilor in north lanarkshire actually has family members who are linked to loyalist terror groups. but asides from that we will ignote the fact that you cant actually produce evidence as to the actual % of catholic glasgow city council members and north lanarkshire council members i will ask you to recognise the political circumstances in the west of scotland were traditionally catholics have voted in high numbers for the labour party where as protestants tended to vote either conservative as well as the fact that high numbers of irish catholics settled in this area so perhaps these could be a reason why they are over represented. Also I dont really think that i could care less if a council was 100% protestant, muslim whatever the point is how this translates into the actual actions of the council. I am assuming that all the labout council candidates were elected in free elections with no gerrymadering of boundaries to ensure a high rc representation so i dont really see your point.
Republican marches are to promote the establishment of a 32 county irish republic, such is our democratic right to do so. Also if you wish to compare educations with myself and many others in the republican movement in scotland im pretty much sure we could prove we are not dimwits as you put it. |
it is well known that the uvf/ira both now deal in drugs and the sex industry. the ira did the bank job. oh yes and they murdered loads of folk (as did the uvf) so f**k the lot of them i say. republican marches attract the same dimwits as orange marches, f**k the lot of them as well. the only positive thingto be said about these fuckwitfestivals that attract the bigots is that they are using their democratic right to do so.gcc and nlc are rife with their pro catholic agendas just as for example east ayrshire is a proddy cooncil.
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parkhead_rfb
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what is a pro catholic agenda? i am sure you will find that a party political agenda is more important in LA's than any religious one that you have imagined.
if it is a well known fact that the ira deal in drugs and the sex industry you should have no problem providing me with specific cases then? or are you basing this on the fact that mcdowell, a man who has a political axe to grind with psf, and the tabloids..i shouldnt really need to explain about those to an adult, have said they do?
also you say that the ira did the northern bank robbery where is your proof? who has been convicted? if they were so sure that the pira were respnsible there would have been arrests by now.
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Rinty
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b | Quote: | | just as for example east ayrshire is a proddy cooncil. |
Nonsense. In what way is EAC proddy? The last provost to this one was Catholic, the head of Education is Catholic, the head of young peoples services is catholic, several councillors are catholic including the councillors for the most orange areas.
What are you talking about?
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | what is a pro catholic agenda? i am sure you will find that a party political agenda is more important in LA's than any religious one that you have imagined.
if it is a well known fact that the ira deal in drugs and the sex industry you should have no problem providing me with specific cases then? or are you basing this on the fact that mcdowell, a man who has a political axe to grind with psf, and the tabloids..i shouldnt really need to explain about those to an adult, have said they do?
also you say that the ira did the northern bank robbery where is your proof? who has been convicted? if they were so sure that the pira were respnsible there would have been arrests by now. |
arrests yesterday. the ira and uvf are drug dealers. what about the ira murdering that onnocent man and his six sisters are kicking up hell. read anything they say is evidence of how dodgy the ira/pira is. and the pira-OMAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! cheeky craicsters still in a bad mood about the tattie famine i suppose.
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parkhead_rfb
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its nice to see you can be so comical about a time in irish history which lead to the starvation of millions, do you find holocaust comparisions humorous also?
also i will ask you once again to provide names of ira volunteers who have been charged with dealing in drugs, not to simply state that this is the case, back up your claims.
is the person arrested yesterday a member of the pira? has he been convicted as such? and lets also forget he has only been charged, not convicted.
or is this another case of innocent untill proven irish.?
you will also find that omagh was committed by the real ira not the provisional IRA, and the vast majority of republicans express remorse over that attack.
As for the case of the Mccartneys it does seem that the attack was carried out by pira volunteers although at the time they were not on active service therefore the act cannot be blamed on the pira. would you blame the british army if two of its soldiers committed a killing whilst off duty?
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | its nice to see you can be so comical about a time in irish history which lead to the starvation of millions, do you find holocaust comparisions humorous also?
also i will ask you once again to provide names of ira volunteers who have been charged with dealing in drugs, not to simply state that this is the case, back up your claims.
is the person arrested yesterday a member of the pira? has he been convicted as such? and lets also forget he has only been charged, not convicted.
or is this another case of innocent untill proven irish.?
you will also find that omagh was committed by the real ira not the provisional IRA, and the vast majority of republicans express remorse over that attack.
As for the case of the Mccartneys it does seem that the attack was carried out by pira volunteers although at the time they were not on active service therefore the act cannot be blamed on the pira. would you blame the british army if two of its soldiers committed a killing whilst off duty? |
'active duty' what the f**k. can you prove to me that the ira/uvf/pira are not drug dealers? it's a bit like saying paul ferris is a legitimate business man.why was some of the cash from the robbery found on the farm of one of the head terrorists. we all know they did it, justice will be done!
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parkhead_rfb
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how on earth am i supposed to prove to you that the ira dont deal drugs? the burden of proof is on your part you made the allegation, which you clearly cant back up. it is a fact though that the pira were heavily linked to the group direct action against drug dealers.
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trueblue
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your justifications are getting shorter and less coheherent as time goes by.
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SLG
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No trueblue, it's a fair point. Can you show us any evidence of any convictions of known IRA members for dealing of drugs? Or even any articles linking the IRA with drugs?
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trueblue
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| SLG wrote: | | No trueblue, it's a fair point. Can you show us any evidence of any convictions of known IRA members for dealing of drugs? Or even any articles linking the IRA with drugs? |
off the top of my head, the services of the 3 ira men traiing columbian terrorists were part paid in columbian marching powder, as is the columbian way. what do you think they did with it, threw it away cos 'the cheeky ira pranksters only deal in bombs, guns and murder'. get a f***ing grip, everyone knows it goes on.
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SLG
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| trueblue wrote: | | off the top of my head, the services of the 3 ira men traiing columbian terrorists were part paid in columbian marching powder, as is the columbian way. what do you think they did with it, threw it away cos 'the cheeky ira pranksters only deal in bombs, guns and murder'. get a f***ing grip, everyone knows it goes on. |
Unlike (seemingly) most people here, I'm not obsessed with the situation in NI. I don't know what goes on. You can say one thing and Parkhead can say another. If you want me to believe that the IRA are dealing drugs, you'll need to show me something more substantial.
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azzuri
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From what I know of over here, there are many sides to this coin - it isn't just as simple as saying the IRA do or don't deal drugs. As an organisation I'm sure they do not - but that does not indemnify individuals who are part of the IRA.
Sinn Fein and the IRA are keen to retain the role of 'protectors of the people'. The tactic of killing drug dealers is a vote winner in nationalist areas. Sensitive to public opinion in both Northern Ireland and the USA, the IRA refuse to deal drugs directly, however various republican splinter groups seem not to care. Many people believe that the IRA 'licence' dealers in nationalist areas. Those who refuse to pay normally end up dead.
Always mindful of their public image, the IRA have invested heavily in legitimate businesses to raise funds. I'm sure I've been in many pubs owned or run by the IRA. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen newsletters circulated freely.
Less sophisticated loyalist groups, eager to maintain their power bases and lifestyles, and less concerned about their public image, have definitely turned to drug dealing. The inter-loyalist feuds of recent years are in part fuelled by arguments over drugs.
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trueblue
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well said. i'm not obsessed about ulster but i hate to see people treat the members of terror groups as legitimate political concerns, they are not. they are just gangs now who happen to hate each other over historic differences. which is patheric. i hate to see the uvf stuff at ibrox and equally find the ira stuff at parkhead eqaully stomach turning. that is my interest. note that i have never been pro-uvf or similar, just pro-british. you may not agreee with it but nothing wrong with it.
people defending the ira/pira/uvf is just s***e and brainwashing gone bad.
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parkhead_rfb
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that is your opinion trublue not mine. the ira are a response to the political sutuation in ireland and wither you like it or not these people took risks for their political beliefs, not personal gain.
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azzuri
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Just out of interest trueblue -
What exactly do you mean by pro-british? That comment could be seriously misconstrued in this particular thread.
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SLG
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| rs_azzuri wrote: | Just out of interest trueblue -
What exactly do you mean by pro-british? That comment could be seriously misconstrued in this particular thread. |
I have to say, as much as I dislike it, and as much as I see it as having fallen for a line of fiction spun by an artificial British state, you have to accept peoples beliefs. If someone believes themselves to be British, we can try to explain why they shouldn't, but it is personal choice. So long as they themselves don't resort to violence or discrimination, so be it. I would hope people like trueblue would read some of the non-Irish related threads on the site an realise that, at least in Scotland, being British actually works to the detriment of Scotland and we are best out of it.
trueblue, a question - do you consider yourself to be Scots at all? or are you a 100% Brit?
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azzuri
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What I was actually getting at was that it could be misconstrued in this thread due to the fact we are talking about Northern Ireland - given what 'British' means over here (In NI).
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SLG
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| rs_azzuri wrote: | | What I was actually getting at was that it could be misconstrued in this thread due to the fact we are talking about Northern Ireland - given what 'British' means over here (In NI). |
What does British mean in NI that it doesn't commonly mean in Scotland England and Wales? Excepting when it is used in a geographical sense to refer to the Island of Britain.
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | that is your opinion trublue not mine. the ira are a response to the political sutuation in ireland and wither you like it or not these people took risks for their political beliefs, not personal gain. |
oh aye and murdered many innocent children alomg the way. the idiots could not talk themselves out of a situation so they started killing, marvelous. how clever.
i'm scot's-british.
someone from ulster is ulster-british, whether pro-terror group person likes it or not.
do you not have a british passport?
do your taxes not go to the british govt.?
whether you like it or not you are all british unless born in the us/japan/eire etc.
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parkhead_rfb
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why should my passport dicate how i see my nationality? if they decide to issue dickhead on yours tommorow will you go around telling people you are a dickhead? its an official document, but then official doesnt always mean correct.
oh right what about the innocent children of iraq, ireland etc that the british army have murdered no mention of them? the ira were fighting a war, mistakes are made in wars and as soon as the british decided they couldnt defeat the ira they were always open to political routes, it is the british government that continued the conflict.
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | why should my passport dicate how i see my nationality? if they decide to issue dickhead on yours tommorow will you go around telling people you are a dickhead? its an official document, but then official doesnt always mean correct.
oh right what about the innocent children of iraq, ireland etc that the british army have murdered no mention of them? the ira were fighting a war, mistakes are made in wars and as soon as the british decided they couldnt defeat the ira they were always open to political routes, it is the british government that continued the conflict. |
armed services DO NOT murder iraqi childern, there unfortunate innocent victims in any war when a bomb drops.
i would say that british troops murder innocent children if they had bombed warrington by leaving bombs in litter bins. or pubs. or at national parades. that IS murder of innocents.
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | why should my passport dicate how i see my nationality? if they decide to issue dickhead on yours tommorow will you go around telling people you are a dickhead? its an official document, but then official doesnt always mean correct.
oh right what about the innocent children of iraq, ireland etc that the british army have murdered no mention of them? the ira were fighting a war, mistakes are made in wars and as soon as the british decided they couldnt defeat the ira they were always open to political routes, it is the british government that continued the conflict. |
i take it you hold a british passport then or would if you had to get one. yes a british one, with queen on it. hee hee haha.
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parkhead_rfb
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passport means nothing to me its just used for getting in and out of country, doesnt anger me that i have a british one, although i would rather the joke of a monarchy was removed.
for the record though
jackie duddy 17 years of age
john young 17 years of age
hugh gilmore 17 years of age
gerald donaghy 17 years of age
michael kelly 18 years of age
were all shot dead unarmed by british paratroopers on bloody sunday.
the list of children injured, and somekilled, by british state plastic bullets is also endless.
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | passport means nothing to me its just used for getting in and out of country, doesnt anger me that i have a british one, although i would rather the joke of a monarchy was removed.
for the record though
jackie duddy 17 years of age
john young 17 years of age
hugh gilmore 17 years of age
gerald donaghy 17 years of age
michael kelly 18 years of age
were all shot dead unarmed by british paratroopers on bloody sunday.
the list of children injured, and somekilled, by british state plastic bullets is also endless. |
ah yes. bloody sunday a peaceful march where some of the marchers were carrying guns............. much is still to be learned of that day
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parkhead_rfb
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where is your evidence that marchers were carrying guns? these were claims which were made by the british army, claims which have been widely discredited since then.
but evidence doesnt really seem to be your thing you enjoy here say more.
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Rinty
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s | Quote: | | ah yes. bloody sunday a peaceful march where some of the marchers were carrying guns............. much is still to be learned of that day |
Go on then, what is to be learned of that day? That sort of stement highlights just how poor your knowledge is.
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RBK
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Re: s | Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | ah yes. bloody sunday a peaceful march where some of the marchers were carrying guns............. much is still to be learned of that day |
Go on then, what is to be learned of that day? That sort of stement highlights just how poor your knowledge is. |
There were guns being carried on that day. Some have even admitted to this, at the millions of pounds enquiry that is ongoing. I think one of the guys was a Sticky[offical ira].
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Rinty
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cI have no doubt that there would be some people in Derry that day carrying weapons. The actions of the British army that day can easily explain why they would do so.
But that in no way excuses the murder of the thirteen innocent protesters, most of them shot in the back.
At one time they used to claim that they were fired on first, now the claim is diluted to being that there were some IRA men in the area carrying guns. That would have been true of any day in Derry in the early 70's. Of course they were definitely not the only people carrying guns, they were, however, not used to kill anyone at that march.
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | where is your evidence that marchers were carrying guns? these were claims which were made by the british army, claims which have been widely discredited since then.
but evidence doesnt really seem to be your thing you enjoy here say more. |
were our servicemen shooting at themselves?
where is your neutral evidence they were not carrying guns. and do not quote the provo daily or such crap.
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parkhead_rfb
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how can i prove evidence that they were not carrying guns? there could have been guns or rocket launchers there for all i know you would only know for certain if they were fired. can you provide me with evidence other than the widely discredited widgery (sp) report, i believe it was called, which states otherwise?
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trueblue
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | how can i prove evidence that they were not carrying guns? there could have been guns or rocket launchers there for all i know you would only know for certain if they were fired. can you provide me with evidence other than the widely discredited widgery (sp) report, i believe it was called, which states otherwise? |
'it didnae happen, youz made it up,it's a british conspiracy'.
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Rinty
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tTrue blue,
Are you saying that the innocent marchers were killed because some IRA men had guns?
If not what is your point?
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RBK
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[quote="parkhead_rfb"]where is your evidence that marchers were carrying guns? these were claims which were made by the british army, claims which have been widely discredited since then.
The point is [and it was on the news] that guns were being carried. If my memory serves me right, I believe that one or two admitted firing at the army. But even if they didn't,they were still carrying guns.
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trueblue
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Re: t | Rinty wrote: | True blue,
Are you saying that the innocent marchers were killed because some IRA men had guns?
If not what is your point? |
the point is that these 'peaceful marchers' were not as lovely as made out. the british army DID come under fire. it is a terrible piece of the armies history that is of no doubt but stop believing all this 'they were all innocent' pish.
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RBK
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | how can i prove evidence that they were not carrying guns? there could have been guns or rocket launchers there for all i know you would only know for certain if they were fired. can you provide me with evidence other than the widely discredited widgery (sp) report, i believe it was called, which states otherwise? |
Witness 'saw armed man '
A member of the republican movement saw a man with a rifle and heard a shot before he heard shots fired by the Army on Bloody Sunday, the Saville Inquiry has heard.
The witness, referred to only as RM 1, said on Tuesday that he remembered feeling "very angry" because of the risk to the crowd.
The tribunal is examining the events of 30 January 1972 when 13 civilians were shot dead by British army soldiers during a civil rights march in Londonderry. A 14th person died later.
He said he was watching a number of young men stoning a small barricade in the area of Little James Street when he heard a shot which seemed to have come from a building behind him.
The republican said as he ran up the stairs in the building, he was thinking: "Who is mad enough to fire a shot with all this crowd about."
He said he grabbed a gun from one of two men, threw the weapon down the stairs and pushed the man after it.
The witness had said in his written submission: "I felt strongly that it should not have happened. I confirm that this was the first shot I heard and I heard no Army fire at the time."
The inquiry has already heard from a former Official IRA member who said he had fired a shot after he heard two people had already been injured by the Army.
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trueblue
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just peace loving craicsters.
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Rinty
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t | Quote: | | the point is that these 'peaceful marchers' were not as lovely as made out |
So far the claims have been about IRA men near the march alledgedly carrying guns (normal in that time), but not that the marchers were carrying guns true blue. Since when did not being as "lovely as made out" carry the death penalty without trial?
| Quote: | | just peace loving craicsters |
True blue, I may not agree with RBKs opinion on this, but at leat he is debating the issue with ideas and evidence. Can you just piss off when the grown ups are talking please?
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trueblue
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Re: t | Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | the point is that these 'peaceful marchers' were not as lovely as made out |
So far the claims have been about IRA men near the march alledgedly carrying guns (normal in that time), but not that the marchers were carrying guns true blue. Since when did not being as "lovely as made out" carry the death penalty without trial?
| Quote: | | just peace loving craicsters |
True blue, I may not agree with RBKs opinion on this, but at leat he is debating the issue with ideas and evidence. Can you just piss off when the grown ups are talking please? |
death penalty without a trial- not sure, ira/uvf bombers will answer that though.
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