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SLG

Cornish reject England's flag

Quote:
CELTIC LEAGUE - PRESS INFORMATION

CORNISH REJECT ENGLANDS FLAG


National symbols are increasingly important as the Celtic Nations
strive to assert more directly their true identity and throw off
the artificial 'personality' that the term British has forced on them.

Flags are a potent expression of National identity and in the past
50 years the flags of England and the 'Union' have become increasingly marginalised in the Celtic countries.

In the article below the Cornish branch of the Celtic League indicate
that this process is gathering pace in their country.

Young people, and the population generally if asked, identify themselves as Cornish. In this environment flags - symbols of what is seen as a 'neighbouring State' - flown in Cornwall, notwithstanding the 'ecclesiastical context', are regarded as offensive.


"FLAG OF ST. GEORGE OF ENGLAND (RED CROSS ON A WHITE BACKGROUND) CAUSES
INSULT TO THE CORNISH PEOPLE

A recent survey by the University of Plymouth found that, when given
the opportunity, over a third of pupils in schools in Cornwall (Kernow)
would identify as Cornish. (source: University of Plymouth).

A Morgan Stanley Bank survey indicated that when given the choice,
44% of the inhabitants of Cornwall (Kernow) believed themselves to
be Cornish rather than English. This was the highest such figure identifying
with a region across Britain. (source: Morgan Stanley Banking Statistical
Research) During the 2001 Census, a total of 37,601 people specifically
wrote ‘Cornish’ on their Census returns rather than filling out the
other ethnicity section boxes. (source: Office for National Statistics)

Accordingly, recent local surveys have established that the majority
of people of Cornish birth find the flying of the Flag of St. George
of England (red cross on a white background) in Cornwall (Kernow)
to be highly insulting, provocative, repressive and imperialistic
and in some cases, racist. Indeed, in a published essay ‘Lan Kernow
- A Theology of Place for Cornwall’ the campaigning group, ‘Fry an
Spyrys’ (Free the Spirit) calls for the Anglican Church in Cornwall
(Kernow) to desist from flying the St. George’s flag over its Churches
in the Duchy based on the historical offence caused to the Cornish.
This issue is being considered at the highest levels of the Anglican
Church who are only too aware of the history of the Flag of St.George
in the Cornish (Kernewek) context.

The flag of Cornwall (Kernow) is the Flag of St. Piran of the Cornish
Tinners comprising a white cross on a black background signifying
the white of tin on the black colour of rock. There are strong links
between the flag and the arrival of Christianity on the north Cornish
coastline during the 6th. century.

The Flag of St. Piran may be seen flying outside Cornwall’s Council
Offices and other official building across the Duchy as well as outside
numerous businesses, tourist attractions and private homes. It is
affixed to many motor vehicles, boats and lapel badges or badge incorporations.
Cornwall’s National Day is St. Piran’s Day which is celebrated on
March 5th. annually by increasing numbers.

The St. Piran’s Flag is symbolic of Cornwall’s distinctive heritage
and history, which is as different from England’s as that of Wales
and Scotland, the Isle of Man and Ireland, fellow Celtic Nations.

AN KESUNYANS KELTEK - SCOREN KERNEWEK (The Cornish Branch of the International Celtic League) calls for the flying of St. George’s Flags in Cornwall (Kernow) to be halted and ask that every opportunity is taken to fly the Cornish Flag of St. Piran.

Issued by: AN KESUNYANS KELTEK - SCOREN KERNEWEK
The Cornish Branch of the International Celtic League"


J B Moffatt
Secretary General
Celtic League

14/03/06
azzuri

very interesting - I wouldn't have thought these figures quite nearly as high.
Aventinian

Nor I. I also commend the mature approach of the Cornish people in this shift away from considering themselves culturally bound to England.
Abieuan

Quote:
‘Fry an
Spyrys’ (Free the Spirit) calls for the Anglican Church in Cornwall
(Kernow) to desist from flying the St. George’s flag over its Churches
in the Duchy based on the historical offence caused to the Cornish.
This issue is being considered at the highest levels of the Anglican
Church who are only too aware of the history of the Flag of St.George
in the Cornish (Kernewek) context.

The Church of England are considering merging the Diocese of Truro with one in Devon, with Kernow losing it status and Bishop.
If they do this, Fry an Spyrys will call for the disestablishment of the church in Kernow and forming of a Church of Cornwall.

Quote:
It is
affixed to many motor vehicles

The flag of St Piran is usualy seen on cars as a bumper sticker rather than on number plates.
On Scottish 'plates we can have the Saltire, and the Welsh can have the Ddraig Goch, but it is illegal to have St Piran's flag on a numberplate !
Aventinian

Abieuan wrote:
The flag of St Piran is usualy seen on cars as a bumper sticker rather than on number plates.
On Scottish 'plates we can have the Saltire, and the Welsh can have the Ddraig Goch, but it is illegal to have St Piran's flag on a numberplate !


I believe it is equally illegal to have the Saltire or the Red Dragon - or indeed anything other than the blue stripe with the circle of stars and 'GB' on it. However considering the number of cars you see with things as inane as Playboy logos (usually on the cars of young women... I just can square that myself) you wouldn't exacly think it was the case.
Leathlaobhair

Congratulations to the Cornish. They don't get a lot of attention, unfortunately, compared to most of the other Celtic Nations.

RE: License plates. This may be of help.
Blackleaf

"Cornish" people?

Only around 8% or so of the population of Cornwall are true Cornish people.
Blackleaf

Quote:
A Morgan Stanley Bank survey indicated that when given the choice,
44% of the inhabitants of Cornwall (Kernow) believed themselves to
be Cornish rather than English.

That's alright, then. The MAJORITY consider themselves to be English.

But it's a surprise that only 44% consider themselves English when, in actual, only about 8% of Cornwall's (small) population have Cornish blood in them.
Blackleaf

In fact, Cornwall isn't the only English county in which a high percentage consider their "nationality" to be of just that county. The English probably have a higher affinity with their county than the Scots or Welsh do with their counties or regions. On average, in England, 21% of people identify themselves with their county.

44% of Cornish people may consider themselves to be Cornish, but other counties weren't far behind - according to the same survey, 37% of people in Derbyshire and East Sussex also identified themselves with their county first.
Aventinian

Blackleaf wrote:
In fact, Cornwall isn't the only English county in which a high percentage consider their "nationality" to be of just that county. The English probably have a higher affinity with their county than the Scots or Welsh do with their counties or regions. On average, in England, 21% of people identify themselves with their county.


Yes, unfortunately we haven't had a stable or traditional local government structure in quite some time. I still identify with what are effectively only Lieutenancy Areas now...

I certainly feel more affinity to my local area than I do to Britain, Scotland or Europe.
SLG

Blackleaf wrote:
"Cornish" people?

Only around 8% or so of the population of Cornwall are true Cornish people.

What is your definition of a true Cornish? Surely anyone who lives in Cornwall is Cornish if they choose to be, no?
Abieuan

Blackleaf wrote:
Quote:
"Cornish" people?

Only around 8% or so of the population of Cornwall are true Cornish people.
So whether it's 8% or 44%, should these people not have the right to have their language and culture taught in Cornish schools even though foreigners (English) are taking over their country ?

What % of the English are actually English?
Possibly most are Viking, Celtic, Norman and others.
Lothian Sky

I think English people move to Cornwall and end up embracing the local culture, much like the posh southerners who move to the Hebrides and vehemently campaign for Gaelic schools. Not a bad thing. I welcome people like that with open arms. We are all mongrels, at the end of the day.
Abieuan

I would also welcome anyone to go to Kernow if they would campaign for Kernewek.
Abieuan

Quote:
CHURCH REFORM CONFLICT GOES ON


Representatives of Fry an Spyrys, the campaign organization aiming
to reform the Celtic church of Cornwall and to disestablish the Church
of England in Cornwall, were invited to address the Church of England
revision committee for the draft Pastoral, Dioceses and Mission Measure.

Andy Phillips and Prof Ken Mackinnon were both invited to speak, with
Professor MacKinnon highlighting Cornwall’s cultural and constitutional
separateness from England and a need for its own church. Reporting
to members afterwards, Mr Phillips who at the time of writing was
still awaiting a response from the Committee, expressed fears that
the Committee members minds were made up and that they were determined
for the General Synod to have the power to dissolve Truro Diocese.

Mr Phillips went on to speculate that there was an apparent desire
among Committee members to reduce the number of Diocese and to increase
the number of provinces in the Church of England (currently York and
Canterbury). The idea behind this would be for the provinces to parallel
John Prescott’s regional assemblies. Who ever said that the Church
of England was a distinct entity from the state?

(Report collated for Celtic News by Rhisiart Talebot - Kernow Branch)

From the Celtic League
Abieuan

The regional assemblies proposed in England were representitive of nobody, this has been proven at the ballot box.
The Churches depend on tradition, and should be wary of breaking it to go with an unpopular (and forced in Cornwall) government scheme.
The Bishops of the Church of England are too involved in political matters, ie, House of Lords.
Blackleaf

SLG wrote:
Blackleaf wrote:
"Cornish" people?

Only around 8% or so of the population of Cornwall are true Cornish people.

What is your definition of a true Cornish? Surely anyone who lives in Cornwall is Cornish if they choose to be, no?


True Cornish means proper, Celtic Cornish. The descendants of the Celts who lived there.

Only 8% of the Cornish population are actually Celts, so how the Hell can Cornwall be "Celtic"?

There are other counties in England that are more Celtic than Cornwall is.
Blackleaf

Abieuan wrote:
Blackleaf wrote:
Quote:
"Cornish" people?

Only around 8% or so of the population of Cornwall are true Cornish people.
So whether it's 8% or 44%, should these people not have the right to have their language and culture taught in Cornish schools even though foreigners (English) are taking over their country ?

What % of the English are actually English?
Possibly most are Viking, Celtic, Norman and others.


But that's what the English ARE. A mongrel race.

But some people go on about Cornwall as though it's different from everywhere else in England, and call it one of the "Celtic nations", even though 8% of the people who live in Cornwall are true "Celts."

Cornwall is about as Celtic as any other English county.
Blackleaf

If there was a referendum asking the Cornish whether they prefer to be known as Cornish or to be known as English and, if most of them were to tick Cornish, it would be considered as NOT a part of England but if most ticked English then it'll just remain an English county, then cornwall would remain an English county. In fact, people of some other counties in England seem to have a GREATER affinity with their county than the Cornish - in one survey, 35.1% of the Cornish considered themselves "Cornish" over English, whereas in another survey 37% of the people of Derbyshire and East Sussex chose their "nationality" to be their county rather than English. But in the 2001 Census, there was a "Cornish" box to tick for the people of Cornwall, alongside English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish. However, only 6.8% of the Cornish people ticked "Cornish"




The number of people living in Cornwall considering themselves to be Cornish before being British or English is unknown. Many in Cornwall consider themselves British and then Cornish, so use the term "British" to describe themselves. Many others use only "Cornish" as a description of their ethnic or national identity. This is a phenomenon with a long historical precedent.

As with other ethnic groups in the British Isles, the question of identity is not straightforward. Ethnic identity has been based as much – if not more – on cultural identity than on descent. Many descendants of people who came and settled in Cornwall have adopted this identity[1].

In the 2001 UK Census, the population of Cornwall was estimated to be 501,267. Cornish community organisations tend to consider half of these people to be ethnic Cornish. However, such estimates are unreliable and the numbers considering themselves primarily Cornish are likely to be lower.

A recent survey by the University of Plymouth found that, when given the opportunity, over a third of pupils in Cornish schools identified themselves as Cornish. A survey conducted for Morgan Stanley indicated that when limited to one description, 44% of those Cornish inhabitants surveyed chose "Cornish" rather than "British", "English" or "European". This was the largest such figure in England – on average, 21% identified themselves with their county – but it was not the only such result: 37% of people in Derbyshire and East Sussex also identified themselves with their county first. The survey gave neither an upper or a lower bound on the number of Cornish people identifying as part of a Cornish ethnicity.

Another survey, Quality of Life in Cornwall, offered Cornish inhabitants the choice between description as Cornish or English, but not both. 35.1% of the 15,000 people surveyed chose "Cornish", compared to 48.4% who chose English.

For the first time in a UK Census, those wishing to describe their ethnicity as Cornish were given their own code number (06) on the 2001 UK Census form, alongside those for people wishing to describe themselves as English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish. Although happy with this development, campaigners expressed reservations about the lack of publicity surrounding the issue, the lack of a clear tick-box for the Cornish option on the census and the need to deny being British in order to write "Cornish" in the field provided. 37,603 people in the UK wrote "Cornish" in this field. In Cornwall, 33,932 people (6.8% of the population) did so, varying from 9% in Penwith to 5.57% in Caradon. Outside Cornwall, an additional 3,671 wrote "Cornish", the highest proportion being in Plymouth, with 487 (0.2%).

wikipedia.org
SLG

Blackleaf wrote:
True Cornish means proper, Celtic Cornish. The descendants of the Celts who lived there.

Only 8% of the Cornish population are actually Celts, so how the Hell can Cornwall be "Celtic"?

There are other counties in England that are more Celtic than Cornwall is.

Do you have a reference for that figure of 8%? How do you test the 'Celticness' of a Cornish resident?
Aventinian

I have to agree here that there's not a lot more Celtic blood floating about Cornwall than there is in any other part of Great Britain. After all, the English still have huge amounts of Celt in them (hmm...double entendre there. Must remember that one.)
SLG

Aventinian wrote:
I have to agree here that there's not a lot more Celtic blood floating about Cornwall than there is in any other part of Great Britain. After all, the English still have huge amounts of Celt in them

1. Why do you think that?
2. What exactly do you mean by blood?
3. Do you think that the proportion of 'Celtic' to 'Anglo-Saxon' or any other type of blood makes any difference to a person?
Aventinian

SLG wrote:
1. Why do you think that?


I recall hearing a number of things to this effect in my time. For example that the level of Anglo-Saxon blood in the average Englishman is fairly low and that there was extensive dilution with the natives, not to mention as said that we are a mongrel race. The ethnic differences between Cornwall and the rest of England are hardly marked, ditto for England and lowland Scotland or Wales.

Quote:
2. What exactly do you mean by blood?


Essentially the ethnic make up of an individual person.

Quote:
3. Do you think that the proportion of 'Celtic' to 'Anglo-Saxon' or any other type of blood makes any difference to a person?


Not at all.
SLG

Aventinian wrote:
I recall hearing a number of things to this effect in my time. For example that the level of Anglo-Saxon blood in the average Englishman is fairly low and that there was extensive dilution with the natives, not to mention as said that we are a mongrel race. The ethnic differences between Cornwall and the rest of England are hardly marked, ditto for England and lowland Scotland or Wales.

I'm sceptical of these studies. The amount of variation in these populations compared to the depth of study I've seen carried out makes their conclusions doubtful IMO. However, I would be surprised if the ethnic makeup of your average cornishman was particularly different from the rest of the west of England.

Aventinian wrote:
Quote:
3. Do you think that the proportion of 'Celtic' to 'Anglo-Saxon' or any other type of blood makes any difference to a person?

Not at all.

Glad to hear it. For Blackleaf to suggest that the Cornish don't carry significantly different 'blood' from the rest of England as justification for why they should remain part of England is, IMO, nonsense.
Blackleaf

Quote:
Glad to hear it. For Blackleaf to suggest that the Cornish don't carry significantly different 'blood' from the rest of England as justification for why they should remain part of England is, IMO, nonsense.

A higher majority of Cornish people consider themselves to be English than those who consider themselves to be Cornish above English.

That means Cornwall should just be an English county.

And the Cornish are as just English as the rest of us. English people don't just stay in the same county for life. We can move about. And that's the same for Cornwall. Over the centuries, people have been moving in and out of Cornwall in the same way as any other country.
Blackleaf

And Cornwall isn't even the only English county to have its own flag. Again, ev en in that respect it's no different than other English counties.


Flag of Essex


Flag of Isle of Wight


Flag of Somerset


Flag of Hampshire


Flag of Northumberland
Blackleaf

And the Northumbrians love flying it.

Aventinian

That's because Northumbria's flags is one of the... um... snazziest (for want of a better word) in the British Isles.

I quite like the new flag of Devon too.
Leathlaobhair

Aventinian wrote:
That's because Northumbria's flags is one of the... um... snazziest (for want of a better word) in the British Isles.

I quite like the new flag of Devon too.


It's pretty swell I have to say.
IF Convenor

Aventinian wrote:
Abieuan wrote:
The flag of St Piran is usualy seen on cars as a bumper sticker rather than on number plates.
On Scottish 'plates we can have the Saltire, and the Welsh can have the Ddraig Goch, but it is illegal to have St Piran's flag on a numberplate !


I believe it is equally illegal to have the Saltire or the Red Dragon - or indeed anything other than the blue stripe with the circle of stars and 'GB' on it.


I took delivery of a new car in December 2005. When it was registered with the DVLA I asked the dealer to put Saltires on the number plates, to definitely not put "GB" on the number plates and, if at all possible, not to include any EU symbols. He complied and my "55" number plates have Saltires and the letters "SCO" front and back. I suspect the dealer would not have been willing to do any of this if it were illegal to do so.

When the new style number plates came out in 2001 ("51" was the first) the ruling was that only the EU flag and "GB" or nothing at all would be allowed. However, Scotland had been allowed the Saltire prior to this and there was a big enough outcry that the government relented. It is now completely legitimate to have a Saltire and no "GB" on your number plate.
Aventinian

I still think it's technically illegal, but it's one of those things that no one will ever get prosecuted for - although I don't believe that's even on the basis of a statement from the Lord Advocate or anything. You see people using the space for car manufacturer symbols and everything these days.

I'd try and track down the specific piece of legislation, but EC regulations aren't exactly exciting.
IF Convenor

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/vehicles/r...urrent_requirements.htm#europlate
Aventinian

"The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 are in the process of being amended. They will provide for the voluntary display of the Union flag, Scottish Saltire, Cross of St George and Red Dragon. "

Hmm, so presumably your 'SCO' would still be illegal after that is introduced.

I wonder what the good people of Northern Ireland, or Cornwall, or the Shetlands and Orkney Isles are supposed to do. If they're going to let the ones mentioned above be used I don't see why they shouldn't allow anything else to take up that space.
IF Convenor

All I asked the dealer for was a Saltire. It was the dealer or the number plate manufacturer who added the "SCO". Whichever it was, I still doubt if they would have knowingly committed an offence.
Aventinian

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2001/20010561.htm#16

There's the regulations. I started reading them but then got very, very bored - so if you really must know if you're a dispicable felon on the run from the law you can look here...

May God have mercy on your criminal soul Very Happy.
IF Convenor

I actually read those a day or two ago. They're out of date... you need the amended regulations. Recommended only in case of insomnia.

And no, I have yet to find the regulations which mention the acceptability or otherwise of the felonious "SCO".
aardvark1662

Just in case you wish to communicate with this turbulent priest, just go to www.freethespirit.org.uk and there is a link. I have various booklets for sale too.

Oll an gwella

Andy Phillips
Babygael

Hai aardvark1662, I.m intrigued as I have been just now reading up on the Celtic Church in Scotland. http://groups.msn.com/celticchurchinscotland/churchdistinctions.msnw
RadgeJougal

Blackleaf wrote:
In fact, Cornwall isn't the only English county in which a high percentage consider their "nationality" to be of just that county. The English probably have a higher affinity with their county than the Scots or Welsh do with their counties or regions. On average, in England, 21% of people identify themselves with their county.

44% of Cornish people may consider themselves to be Cornish, but other counties weren't far behind - according to the same survey, 37% of people in Derbyshire and East Sussex also identified themselves with their county first.


All very fine and well, but Cornwall has an historic basis for its claim, which can be deduced from law, politics, language and various other things within the last 500 years. For example, those who die intestate in Cornwall, do not leave their property to the monarch, but the Duke of Cornwall, aka the Prince of Wales.

The only real similarity is with parts of the Welsh Marches, which were often really parts of Wales that ended up behind a border that got moved westward... both had large non-English speaking populations during the Middle Ages.

While many Cornish consider themselves English... there are more native Cornish which do not consider themselves such than any other English county, and there is higher support in that "region" than anywhere else for devolution, and not the South West tri-county kind. No other county of England has its own native language, which is still spoken (given a hiatus!) recognised by Europe, and is not closely related to standard English.
RadgeJougal

Aventinian wrote:
I quite like the new flag of Devon too.


which is based on envy of Cornwall's much older design!!!

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