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| Reluctant Hero |
Council tax frozenhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7094879.stmSNP budget makes council tax deal A deal for a council tax freeze next year has been struck with councils, the SNP government has confirmed. The announcement from Finance Secretary John Swinney came as he delivered the Nationalists' first budget and three-year spending plans. Efficiency saving targets will also be raised, amid the "tightest financial settlement since devolution". Rival parties attacked the minority administration for shelving a key manifesto pledge to scrap student debt. Ministers will also cut P1-3 class sizes to no more than 18 - another pledge which opposition parties repeatedly called on the SNP to deliver - but the move was uncosted in the budget document and without a clear timescale. The planned tax freeze came in an agreement with local authority umbrella group Cosla, and can expect to get a total of £34.7bn over the next three years - although they will not be able to confirm the plan until they set their tax levels in February. Mr Swinney also promised "record" spending in public transport, while outlining funding for green energy projects and community regeneration and cuts in business rates for 150,00 small firms from next April. He told the Scottish Parliament: "This is a budget to set Scotland on the route to growth. It heralds a new era of optimism, opportunity and delivery for all of Scotland. "With investment in our public services, matched by lower and fairer tax, I believe this budget meets the aspirations of the people." Other key announcements included; £97m to phase out prescription charges £1.6bn investment in housing and regeneration £350m of new money on health improvement and better public health More than 20,000 new teachers in training 570 hours of nursery provision for 100,000 three and four year-olds Investment of £5.24b over three years to the further and higher education sectors An average of £120m a year capital investment in modern prisons £126m to local authorities for flood defences Mr Swinney said the ambitious spending plans came despite the tightest UK spending settlement since devolution, while also disclosing that a target of 1.5% annual efficiency savings for the public sector would increase to 2%, to free up £1.6bn. He also said that no contingency cash had been set aside for emergencies, but insisted that a prudent approach would see the government through. "The achievement of this target will be a significant challenge and I make it clear that everyone in the public sector must play their part in delivering the clearer and simpler government that will make these savings," he said. While plans to scrap student debt were shelved, there will be a gradual move from loans to grants and total investment in higher and further education of £5.24bn over three years. Mr Swinney said there was a lack of parliamentary support to "service" student debt. But Labour finance spokesman Iain Gray said: "For 18 months the SNP told Scottish students that it would write off their debt immediately," Mr Gray said. "This pledge took Mr Swinney 18 seconds to ditch." BUDGET PROCESS 14 November - Finance Secretary John Swinney's statement to Holyrood November/December - Holyrood subject committees scrutinise relevant portfolio areas 19 December - Subject committees report back to finance committee 16 January - Finance committee makes recommendations 20 January at latest - Scottish Government lays budget bill before parliament Late January - MSPs asked to endorse bill general principles Late January/early February - Bill returns to finance committee for further scrutiny. Early February - Parliament decides, in a final vote, whether to pass the budget. Mr Gray claimed the budget was one of "broken promises", adding that Mr Swinney had been "desperate" to sign a deal on a council tax freeze with Cosla. "Gambling everything on being able to come here with a piece of paper - the Neville Chamberlain of Scottish politics - claiming a council tax freeze," he said. Liberal Democrat leader Nicol Stephen said Mr Swinney should have admitted that the SNP's sums did not add up instead of promising "everything to everyone". "That would've been difficult, but it would at least have been honest," Mr Stephen said. "Instead this is a budget of sham promises, shifty auditing, a budget of deception, spin and half-truths." Tory finance spokesman Derek Brownlee said the public would welcome a council tax freeze, but called for the "political heat" to be taken out of how the level of increase was decided. He added: "If we and the voters had an independent assessment of what level of local authority funding is required to maintain service levels at any given level of council tax increase." Green MSP Patrick Harvie welcomed measures to make agriculture, housing and energy use lower carbon, but added: "It's a step or two in the right direction compared with the last lot, but measures to tackle climate change still account for less than a third of the spending on motorways." |
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| Aventinian |
Told you the useless tossers couldn't afford to scrap student debt. I hope they get hauled over the coals for this lie. | ||||||||||
| Rinty |
It is a disgrace!
I wonder what the election result would have been if you deduct those who voted for the SNP for the financial incentive of having their debt scrapped? Election bribes are bad enough, but blatantly using such a popular idea and then not even attempting to carry it out is bad. The SNP have been doing well so far but this a big mistake. The Council Tax freeze is also a bad idea as it comes with caveat of 2% 'efficiency savings'. I wonder, when the 'savings' manifest themslves as closures of public toilets or a cut in youth workers, whether people would have been that bothered about an extra pound or two a month. |
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| William_Cleland |
Get the bad news out the way early is good politics. Seems to me that as a minority government dependent for funding on a block grant determined by their main political rivals in a different legislature it is perhaps not surprising that they couldn't meet all their manifesto commitments. | ||||||||||
| Rinty |
I agree, I dont imagine that they would hounour all of them, but this was a major one, and a very significant vote winner. | ||||||||||
| Cymro |
Seems like the SNP have made a mess of things there. I suppose they'll be blaiming the money given to them by Westminster but that won't wash with the average person on the street. Labour will make huge mileage with this.
Personally I'd have said allowing small increases in Council Tax for now as opposed to freezing it totally while finding funds for clearing student debts would have been a better idea. Also I tend to think not saving any money for an emergency is a bit of a mistake too - given the impact felt by the Agricultural Community and the subsequent arguements when Westmisnster refused to give assistence because of the Foot and Mouth Crisis that keeping money aside would be a good idea. |
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| sgmillerton |
it's not bad news, it's a f***ing lie. |
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| William_Cleland |
Politicians have been known to do that. | ||||||||||
| mairead |
Yes, even the labour governments have been know to tell a porky or ten, or more.
Some folk have short, very short memories. |
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| Rinty |
"Some folk have short, very short memories."
I dont! I remember it well, I criticised them too. Surely we are not going down the road of claiming that you will do something then justifying not doing it by saying that the other lot did it. I hope the SNP notice that Labour promised to abolish student fees, then didnt do it, then paid the price at the ballot box. |
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| Economist |
Well I thought it was a good draft budget overall, despite the opposition propaganda. TBH, I was expecting something much, much worse than we got, and was pleasantly surprised in the end. Having read through certain sections of it, I'm quite surprised how conservative it is in some areas. Perhaps I had been reading too many newspapers predicting armageddon as a result of this budget and the end of the SNP government, but that's not going to happen.
I think at least John Swinney was up front about the student debts pledge, which lets be honest hadn't a cat in hell's chance of being voted through parliament in any case. However, given that the opposition are so exercised about student debt, and given this is a minority government and there are several months of detailed parliamentary scrutiny ahead, perhaps the combined wit of the opposition could table suitable amendments to the draft budget and cut expenditure to suit that proposal (remember they do have the power to do this) - but we won't hold our breath. I think if the council tax freeze hadn't come about, then the SNP would be in trouble as a result of the budget. But they're not, and there is some clever politicking here by the SNP. I wonder if any of the hardcore Labour councils would refuse the extra funds, just for the hell of it basically? It seems likely that the budget will be passed early next year, with some amendments to it - and it seems likely that it will be done with Conservative support. Reading through the debate yesterday I'm absolutely shocked at the behaviour of the LibDems in the whole episode. To say they were frothing with bile at the prospect of the Conservatives and Greens supporting large parts of the Budget was putting it mildly. It seems the LibDems and Labour would like the budget to fall - irrespective of anything and without any concrete alternatives from themselves. That's not just opposition, that is destructive IMO. Incidentally, talking about bile, did anyone see the prediction that the "end of the union is nigh" in the Daily Telegraph, yesterday http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinio...ml=/opinion/2007/11/14/do1401.xml Unstoppable train anyone? 
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| October1974 |
The front page of the Courier today had
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2007/11/15/newsstory10558151t0.asp and to my surprise an endorsement of the Budget - alas not online. I picked up a copy of the Metro and had positive headlines. Alas I am not happy they cannot afford to wipe off the student debt but would they have got that through Parliament? What were the rest offering? No much. |
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| Aventinian |
And yet they introduce white papers for bills without a snowball's chance in hell of getting through the Parliament when it suits them? I'm afraid that excuse doesn't wash, nor does it appear factually accurate to me as I imagine the support of the Lib Dems and the Greens could have been negotiated.
Labour councils deliberately neglecting their responsibilities in order to bring down a central government's latest local taxation regime is hardly a new thing anyway. |
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| SLG |
It would definitely have put the Lib Dems in a very difficult position if it had come through. You're right, it's purely about funding. They can't afford it. Is that their fault though? Or is it the fault of the opposition parties in Parliament who forced the Government to commit to funding a tram line in Edinburgh that a majority SNP Government would have scrapped? |
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| William_Cleland |
There are not that many Labour majority control councils left thanks to the new PR voting system and there is a credible chance of them losing even those next time around so it is a very different environment from the 80s. |
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| Aventinian |
Fair point. I have no idea how much the Edinburgh trams are predicted to cost, though, so I'd have to look in to it before agreeing or disagreeing. |
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| Economist |
Firstly, the SNP have made a significant number of concessions on their Referendum white paper and bill, that if some of the opposition parties could drop their prejudices could see something happening that would actually probably benefit all parties, including the SNP. Secondly, they owned up fully and frankly there wasn't the funding available to implement this very expensive policy. Thirdly the opposition parties were very much against this policy prior to the election. I'm not sure how you can really negotiate on it. Fourthly as I pointed out above, if students and the debt they face is suddenly a hot political issue for the Unionist parties (never seemed to bother them before) then they are in the position to make the necessary amendments to the budget, to institute this policy. That would require spending cuts elsewhere to finance it, but as we have a minority government the opposition do have the power to do this, as the budget is still very much at the draft stage. Now, of course they won't. Perhaps they are just playing politics, of course.
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| Holebender |
Students have always had a very inflated view of their own importance and, I'm afraid, many ex-students seem to continue in that mindset.
Ideally the SNP should have implemented their policy, but something had to give when the block grant funding became clear. It makes much more sense for the government to honour pledges to the entire population than to a very vocal but relatively insignificant minority. |
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| Rinty |
"It makes much more sense for the government to honour pledges to the entire population than to a very vocal but relatively insignificant minority."
So the businesses who will receive a rates cut are not a vocal minority? Business interests already had significant influence in parliament but the SNP have increased that influence. Student groups dont have that representation so therefore business interests, no matter what numbers are involved, have a very vocal position that is listened to and, in this case, placed higher than ex-students. I did a quick search to see if I could identify the numbers of people who have outstanding student loans in Scotland (quite a large minority I would imagine). What came up at the top of my google search was a statement from Nicola Sturgean that said "cut student debt and let scotland's high flyers soar" I clicked on the link and got this. http://www.snp.org/press-releases...ss_release.2006-07-27.7033010345/ At least they were quick in covering their tracks 
I suppose the slogan will now be "keep student debt and clip their wings"? Oh by the way, the total was, as far as I can see, 350,000 people who had student loans, quite a large minority in my opinion. |
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| agentmancuso |
Opposition parties are much more opposed to a referendum than they are to writing off student debt. There is no chance of a referendum bill getting through, but the SNP remain committed to attempting to hold one: gesture politics at it's worst. It would have been much easier to negotiate passage of a Budget bill writing off student debt if the SNP really wanted to do so But that would entail cutting back somewhere else; looks like the SNP are beginning to learn that you can't just keep promising to spend more money on the basis of some pot of oil under the rainbow. On the other hand, the decision to allow councils freer reign in the way they allocate funding looks like a positive move. |
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| SLG |
If this is the worst gesture politics you've come across, I suggest you have your priorities severely mixed up. As I said above, the student debt issue is clearly about funding. The don't have the funding to even go as far as putting a bill forward. If they had the money, I'm sure they would, because it would embarrass Labour and the Lib Dems.
No, it looks like the SNP are learning the reality of minority government. The other parties are demanding spending commitments that weren't in the SNP manifesto, therefore if the SNP wish to respect the will of Parliament, then they have to cut back on promised made elsewhere. |
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| Rinty |
One problem they have is that they have more or less ripped up their informal agreement with the Greens. I know Green party members who thought that they deal was that the Greens would back the SNP budget and back them in any vote of confidence. In return the Greens got the scrapping of the M74 and the end of the air travel development fund. Both ideas were scrapped leaving the Greens very angry. That's two more votes of a hurdle in their way for the next four years. | ||||||||||
| Cado |
eh? I'm sure Swinney was on TV the other day saying they're putting money into a prize for coming up with engineering/scientific solutions to renewable energy - and it was quite a considerable prize if I recall. It may not be pushing money in in a cash flow sense - but its probably the best way to come up with new ideas. |
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| George |
OK, leaving the politicking aside for the moment:
I had an interesting conversation with four church volunteers. These people give their time at funerals in order for less well off people to give a dignified 'send off' without being left with debt. These volunteers are from the less salubrious areas of Greenock and have incomes to match, are pensioners or approaching pensionable age and all were traditional labour voters for decades. I was interested on their take on SNP performance to date and how they viewed the budget. Below is a brief summary of their opinions: 1. SNP performance - Overwhelmingly positive, no specific reasons for this feeling but a sense that the SNP are 'fighting' (my words) the Scottish corner. 2. Budget - Didn't know much about the detail, however the free prescriptions had a very positive response. Student debt broken pledge hadn't been picked up by their radar (not surprisingly). Again, they all felt that what they knew of the budget induced a more positive feeling than negative. Some confusion regarding police numbers, they weren't aware that the 1000 police on the street commitment was still there. One thought that there was to be no police, either as recruits or more on the street. The others believed that their would indeed be more officers on the street but were aware of the "broken promises" headlines and were now unsure what the numbers would be. Council tax freeze - A surprise here, it was treated with almost ambivalence. All were concerned that councils would now draw back on services. None were aware that the Scottish Government is giving cash to the councils to negate the loss through no increase. All believed that the freeze would benefit the more well off. However, very strong opinions on replacing the house valuation method with a tax on income, very passionate belief that this should happen. 3. Do they believe after six months that they would be more or less likely to vote SNP if an election was held tomorrow (I didn't clarify Westminster or Holyrood). One stated that it would always be labour, but that the SNP were indeed doing a great job (??). Of the others, it turned out that two had switched to SNP at the recent election and that they now felt even stronger that they had made the correct decision. The last one didn't vote and wasn't sure. Well, if nothing else it provides an insight into the thoughts of a few real people who typically access their politics through the Daily Record, Sunday Mail and T.V. news. |
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| Rinty |
"eh?
I'm sure Swinney was on TV the other day saying they're putting money into a prize for coming up with engineering/scientific solutions to renewable energy - and it was quite a considerable prize if I recall. It may not be pushing money in in a cash flow sense - but its probably the best way to come up with new ideas." You think the Green party can be bought with a raffle? The Greens that I know thought that they had deal with the SNP and they belive that this budget rips it up. Even the mainstream press were reporting very recently that the M74 would be a casualty of the SNP budget. |
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| Rinty |
Free prescriptions are not in the budget! Swinney "signalled" his intention to have free prescriptions but didnt detail the funding or timetable other than a vague reference. If the SNP that they have to cut their cloth accordingly then we will obviously have to wait until three years and two budgets from now to see if they can afford it then. We know that what they say they want to do and what they prioritise to get done are different things.
Still there? It has only beem there since the lecetion. The 'commitment' when they were looking for votes was: "It is essential that we have sufficient police on local streets. That’s why we will set out plans in our first Budget for Scotland for 1000 more police and will encourage Chief Constables to focus these new resources on community policing." The commitment was clearly to recruit 1,000 more police and then to deploy them on streets in communities. The first (and most important) part of that is now gone and we are talking about moving 1,000 police. It isn't even similar.
That was mistake.
Dependent on the councils making 'efficiency savings' (nulabspeak for cuts) of 2% of annual costs. I thought yiou said that yiou were leaving politicking aside? This is just spin. |
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| George |
Apologies Rinty if you felt that I was attempting spin, I wasn't. I take your points though where you feel that my post requires correction. I feel however that I portrayed the feelings of these people accurately. |
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| SLG |
I thought the air route development fund was being scrapped. So one success for the greens. Regarding the M74. I understood that one of the major roads projects would have to be scrapped, with the M74 the most likely. The negotiations have just begun. I think this will probably still happen, but they just didn't want to announce it on the same day when there was enough for the newspapers to report negatively. At the end of the day, I think the SNP are close enough to the green members to know what it takes to keep them on side - and the greens are smart enough to know not to push it too far. I'm sure that when it comes to the vote, the Greens will back the SNP's budget. |
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| SLG |
Aye, but cuts in what? Do you think councils are run as efficently as they could/should be? Do you think that the average 60% rise in council tax in 8 years (or whever it is) has all been used to improve services? |
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| agentmancuso |
Would you like to suggest a more extreme example of pointless gesture politics from a government in recent years?
Well, yes. It was clearly about funding before the last election too, when the SNP promised they would find the money to do it, but other parties said this was unlikely.
How about not wasting money taxpayers on spurious referendums designed to appease their own internal fundamentalists? |
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| SLG |
Ok, what about Ahmadinejad saying that Israel should be "wiped off the map"?
Yes, and if they had won a majority in Parliament at the election, would they have found the money to do it? Perhaps, perhaps not. We'll never know. The reality is that they are only a majority in the Parliament so although they form the government, they can't decide how all the money is allocated. They need to take into account the wishes of the rest of Parliament even when they differ from their own.
I don't think it's spurious and I don't think it's designed to appease their own fundamentalists. It's part of a long term strategy to increase momentum towards independence. |
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| agentmancuso |
Ha ha, yes, very good, but I meant in the UK. Salmond may be given to a bit of bluster, but he's hardly in the Iranian league. |
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| Anthropos |
I don't think that it is because business interests have a more vocal position, but because the SNP is aiming to increase the economic growth rate of Scotland as part of their wider strategy for government and ergo what business wants (i.e. to make more money) is in harmony with what the SNP government wants. As for the failure to write off student debt, well that could cost them as there were some people who voted for them on that policy alone, perhaps not a significant number, but the SNP's majority isn't huge. Come the next election it is likely the opposition will use it against them as an example of 'broken promises'.
I agree, but I also think it was a mistake for the SNP to have pandered to them in the first place. Most of them will have (now or in the near future) mortgages, many will have loans, debt is a fact of contemporary life, indeed our society runs on debt. Why should that lot get subsidised at the taxpayers expense? |
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| Economist |
I wouldn't say that. I think opposition parties are divided, within themselves about having a referendum, with some of those divisions occaisonally floating to the surface for public consumption. Many also mercilessly attacked the SNP over the student debt issue, during the election.
Given that the majority of Scots support a referendum, one way or another? I'd say that was being more in tune with what people want, rather than gesture politics. The referendum didn't require large amounts of public cash to hold, and represent a year on year spending commitment.
Well, as I keep saying, above, given that the SNP have been honest about the financing of this commitment, if the Unionist parties have had a damascene conversion to the cause of student debt - a U-turn, in other words - then they can use this "fabled majority" that we keep hearing about to make the necessary amendments to the budget to institute this policy. Certainly the SNP did make plenty of populist promises, but many aren't that greatly expensive. Of course, £500m for a tram system, that the majority of the residents of Edinburgh don't want foisted upon them was a spending pressure they had to inherit, because the opposition wanted to play politics with the issue. Now what's worse. An opposition that bleats about the hardship to students of the SNP abandoning the student debt commitment (because of financial pressures) and does nothing to institute the policy - given the fact they have the power to. Or a government that admits up front that they can't afford the policy? I'd say the former was playing politics of the worst kind. |
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