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| Blackleaf |
Cromwell: Father of our democracy or war hero?Oliver Cromwell died on 3rd September 1658 in Whitehall, London, from malaria - it's just gone past the 350th anniversary of his death.Cromwell - who coined the famous phrase "warts and all" when he told a portratist to paint him "warts and all" in reference to his facial warts - is seen as a war criminal by the Irish and as a hero by the English. After all, if it wasn't for Cromwell helping to rid England of the Absolutist Stuart monarchy, paving the way for a more democratic Constitutional Monarchy, England might have suffered the fate of France in 1789.... The father of our democracy or a WAR CRIMINAL? By David Edwards 6/09/2008 The Mirror 350 YEARS ON, OLIVER CROMWELL IS DIVIDING THE NATION.. AGAIN 
Oliver Cromwell: Warts and all Oliver Cromwell - you either love him or loathe him. And it usually depends which side of the Irish sea you are on. To some he is a villain. A coldblooded dictator, responsible for mass murder in Ireland, ethnic cleansing and the execution of a king. Others hail him as a hero. The father of British democracy, a devoted family man and a military genius. He led the Roundhead army to victory over the Royalists during the English Civil War and became Lord Protector during the only period in history when this country was a republic. It was 350 years ago this week that Cromwell died, yet his name still stirs up mixed feelings. Irish hostility to him remains. Shane MacGowan in the lyrics to The Pogues song Young Ned Of The Hill wrote: "A curse upon you Oliver Cromwell, you who raped our Motherland, I hope you're rotting down in hell." And eight years ago there was trouble when Cromwell's Death Mask went on display in Drogheda Heritage Centre.
Demonstrators picketed the Centre, incensed that it was on display in the Irish town where he is said to have killed thousands. Now Micheal O Siochru is fuelling the fire with his book, God's Executioner, which brands Cromwell a brutal war criminal. When Drogheda and Wexford refused to surrender during Cromwell's bloody Irish campaign from 1649-50, he ordered the slaughter of everyone in both towns - 7,000 men, women and children. Dr O Siochru says: "For the majority of Irish people, Cromwell is a great bugbear of the past. "His massacres in Wexford and Drogheda went beyond the accepted behaviour of war. "As commander-in-chief, he has to take ultimate responsibility." Like the Irish, monarchists don't like Cromwell much, either. After all, he signed the death warrant of King Charles I. But Cromwell had only been dead two years - given a lavish state funeral in 1658 - when the English monarchy was restored. By then he was so reviled that his decomposing corpse was dug up, hung, drawn and quartered. Then the head was displayed on a pike outside Westminster Hall for over 20 years. It's hard to reconcile such hatred for a man who, as Lord Protector, was the closest this country has ever had to a President. One who backed religious freedom and people's rights, who refused to make himself king, and insisted a portrait painter depict him "warts and all". "Cromwell has always been and will continue to be a divisive figure, viewed as a villain by many in Ireland and feted in England as a true hero," says Dr Patrick Little of the Cromwell Association. "His complexities, the way he divides opinion, is partly why his appeal has proved so lasting. "The massacres were both terrible acts of war, which have caused much resentment over the centuries. But you have to put them in context. They sent a warning to other towns that resistance was futile - it may have saved lives in the long run." Born into minor Cambridgeshire gentry in April 1599, Cromwell spent a year at Cambridge. But on the death of his father, Robert, in 1617, he quit college to manage the estate in Huntingdon and look after his mother and seven sisters. 
Cromwell's New Model Army (right) takes on the Royalists during the English Civil War's Battle of Naseby, 1645 Three years later he wed Elizabeth Bourchier and they had nine children. He became an MP in 1628, converted to Puritanism, and fought the Royalists when Charles I tried to dismantle Parliament in 1642. His quick military mind saw him promoted to the rank of Lieutenant General . Dubbed "Ironside", he was respected by his troops for not allowing class to affect their chances of promotion. Cromwell once wrote: "I had rather have a plain russet-coated captain that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a gentleman and is nothing else." This no-nonsense attitude helped the Roundheads' New Model Army smash their Royalist opposition at Naseby and Langport in 1645. Believing the death of the king was the only way to end the Civil War, in 1649 Cromwell was third to sign the royal death warrant. The Commonwealth of England was declared, he led the notorious campaign in Ireland and the subjugation of Scotland followed. Cromwell was made Lord Protector of England, Scotland and Ireland on December 16, 1653, and from then on he signed his name Oliver P - for Oliver Protector. Ironically, he created a shortlived republic, yet is probably responsible for us still having a monarchy. John Goldsmith, curator of the Cromwell Museum in Huntingdon, says: "Had there been no Cromwell, we would have had a monarchy with absolute power, which could easily have led to the kind of revolution that occurred in France. In that case, we could probably have ended up without a monarchy." Cromwell is often painted as a dour Puritan who, as one of his MPs said: "Wore a suit of plain cloth... made by an ill country tailor". Dr Little begs to differ: "He had a passion for horses and hunting and a love of music. He was quite the dandy, known to wear britches with ribbons at the bottom, a hat with an ostrich plume and boots outfitted with lace." It seems even the contents of Oliver Cromwell's wardrobe manage to divide the critics. The Cromwell Museum in Huntingdon, Cambs, Tuesday to Sunday, 10.30am-4pm. Free. Visit www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/cromwell Life and times of a leader 1599 Cromwell was born into minor gentry in Cambridgeshire 1617 Spends a year at Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge, but has to quit his studies when his father dies 1620 Marries Elizabeth Bourchier - they have nine children 1628 Becomes MP for Cambridge 1642 Civil War breaks out. Cromwell rises from leading cavalry troop to commanding the Roundhead army 1645 Cromwell and his New Model Army smash Royalist opposition at the Battle of Naseby 1647 Charles I captured - he escapes but is caught again on Isle of Wight 1649 Charles is tried for treason, found guilty and executed 1653 Cromwell becomes Lord Protector, he rules with the Council of State 1655 He dismisses his first Parliament and puts Britain under military rule 1658 Cromwell dies. His son becomes the Lord Protector, but is forced to retire in 1659 1660 Parliament invites Charles II, son of Charles I, to restore the monarchy mirror.co.uk |
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| Holebender |
How did the war criminal of the article morph into the war hero of your title? I think your bias is showing. | ||||
| agentmancuso |
Why don't you try writing posts of your own, rather than just copying & pasting from the idiot press?
History isn't black & white Blackleaf, despite what the Cybernats might have you believe. It seems a fair bet that Cromwell was personally a bit of a monster, but that has no bearing on the happy outcome of the battle of Naseby. Maybe if Cromwell had been less of a tyrant a royalist recovery would not have been possible, thus preventing the whole Jacobite fiasco. Come to think of it, it's Cromwell's fault that we have to put up with simpletons pretending to be 'Jacobites' in the 21st century. 
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| Dave Coull |
"Oliver Cromwell - you either love him or loathe him".
Not true. It is possible to neither love him nor loathe him. "And it usually depends which side of the Irish sea you are on". The person who wrote this obviously know absolutely nothing about Cromwell's war against the Scots. "To some he is a villain. A coldblooded dictator" He was no more "coldblooded" than any of the other generals and leaders around at that time, on either side, or, to put it more accurately, on ANY of the many different sides. He was just more successful, that's all. He certainly became a dictator. But so, of course, was the king he fought against. And so, at least potentially, were most of the other possible leaders around at that time, on both sides of the Irish sea, and both sides of the Scottish border. "responsible for mass murder in Ireland" Nowadays, there are some rules of war, such as the Geneva Convention, which are widely accepted. Even Nazi Germany largely played by these rules. One of these rules is that you take prisoners of war. This is of course a nuisance, since you then have to put a large number of your own troops to guarding these prisoners. You have to house the prisoners for the duration of the war. You have to feed all these prisoners. It's a major drain on your resources. If one side had done this in the Seventeenth Century, it could have lost them the war. At least nowadays you know the other side has to do it too. But there was nothing like that then. Even Cromwell's behaviour in Ireland was standard procedure, on all sides, for that time. You gave a besieged army the opportunity to surrender. If they didn't, then they got killed when the place was taken. That is what happened at Drogheda. Most of the actual inhabitants had fled, the people in the town were the royalist army. Most of them were English, not Irish. There is no evidence that "innocent civilians" were killed. "ethnic cleansing" Evidence? "and the execution of a king" "That man of blood, Charles Stuart", who had been given opportunity after opportunity to reach a peaceful accomodation with the Parliament, and had continued to plot a renewal of violence while pretending to be open to negotiation. "It's hard to reconcile such hatred for a man who, as Lord Protector, was the closest this country has ever had to a President. One who backed religious freedom" This was one of the things that the Church of Scotland disliked so much about Cromwell. When Cromwell's English army finally gained control of Scotland, he didn't seek to suppress the established Presbyterian kirk, but he didn't seek to suppress their dissidents either. The Presbyterian ministers complained that Cromwell's army had brought not just one heresy, but dozens of different heretical sects with it, and there was a danger that the contagion of heresy could spread to the Scots. Fortunately, the Scottish people were virtually unanimous in regarding Cromwell's troops as an English army of occupation, so the danger of religious freedom passed. "and people's right" Compared to the Royalists, Cromwell was in favour of people's rights. However, don't forget he HUNG some of the Leveller agitators amongst his own troops, without so much as a trial, not even a court martial, as a warning to the rest of his troops that he wouldn't let this democracy business be taken too far. |
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| dacuhnaa |
What are the differences of a democracy and a democratic republic? I believe that the US is a democratic republic (correct me if I'm wrong), and I need to know how that is different from a regular democracy (like in terms of voting and voters rights and qualifications and general laws and rules).
___________________ market samurai ~ marketsamurai ~ marketsamurai.com |
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| Holebender |
My suspicions are always aroused when a brand new poster pops up and resurrects a thread which has lain dormant for over a year. How many pages do they have to search through to find the one? Why not just start a new thread with the burning question of the day, especially in this case where the new post has little to do with the original topic? Apart from the word "democracy" in the title, what has the new post got to do with the old thread? Will dacuhnaa ever post again, or was this a drive-by posting, a hit and run? | ||||
| Stevie |
Yes, I agree. Peculiar. | ||||