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agentmancuso

Datashambles

The fallout from the discs-in-the-post disaster is making life difficult for Brown:

Quote:
GORDON BROWN is facing the growing possibility of a party revolt as it emerged yesterday that more data from government agencies has gone missing, and polls suggested the recent run of crises is damaging the government.

HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), yesterday confirmed it was looking for another lost package containing six discs, which went missing in the post after being sent on October 10 from a tax credit office in Preston to its Whitehall HQ in London. The discs held recordings of phone conversations between an individual tax credit claimant and an HMRC helpline.

Last week the revelation that personal details of 25 million people contained on two computer discs had gone missing after being posted by HMRC sparked outrage, with the Conservatives describing it as a "catastrophic failure".

A newly published poll has suggested that the series of crises - which includes the handling of the run on Northern Rock - has wiped out Labour's reputation as the best party to handle the economy and damaged Prime Minister Gordon Brown's standing with voters.

Conservative leader David Cameron has overtaken Brown as the leader considered to have the best policies for Britain, with particularly strong support among the young. Just two months ago Labour enjoyed a 12-point lead over the Tories on managing the economy. This has been erased, with the two parties now neck-and-neck on 38%.


But more seriously still, could this be the final nail in the coffin for the ridiculous ID card scheme? The government is evidently not capable of making any such database secure, making the whole exercise pointless.

Whither now all the numpties who said 'only crooks have anything to worry about from ID cards'?
sgmillerton

for me this makes the need for id cards more valid. if we had them it will be much less likely for fraud to be carried out.

it was a slow news wek last week for such a big deal to be made of this. all the information on the discs is readily available to anyone with £20 and a subscrption to a people search website. a total non-story.
Holebender

Are you really that stupid SG?

The government plans to store everything about us, including fingerprint, iris scan, and maybe DNA information on a central computer database. The government has proved that it cannot keep this data secure. You can get a new bank account or even a new National Insurance number, but you can't get new fingerprints, irises, or DNA. What will we do when that information is compromised? There is absolutely no way the government is ever getting that stuff out of me; I will emigrate long before that happens and you can sit there and trust them like the idiot you clearly are.
sgmillerton

Holebender wrote:
Are you really that stupid SG?

The government plans to store everything about us, including fingerprint, iris scan, and maybe DNA information on a central computer database. The government has proved that it cannot keep this data secure. You can get a new bank account or even a new National Insurance number, but you can't get new fingerprints, irises, or DNA. What will we do when that information is compromised? There is absolutely no way the government is ever getting that stuff out of me; I will emigrate long before that happens and you can sit there and trust them like the idiot you clearly are.


it's not stupid, it makes sense, your worried about the govt. failing and the info getting into the wrong hands (as can easily happen now and nothing to do with the govt. just personal stupidity) but instead it will be backed up with data that cannot be copied such as dna/fingerprints or iris scans. i think you are being stupid for jumping on the bandwagon of, 'oooooohhhh, see, what next? told you it was a bad idea'
Holebender

sgmillerton wrote:
it will be backed up with data that cannot be copied such as dna/fingerprints or iris scans.


I suggest you read this article and think again. http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/make-your-own-id/#more-585
Holebender

While you're thinking of the security or otherwise of ID data, think about this:

These ID cards are supposed to contain enough information to uniquely identify each one of us. They are supposed to contain, among other things, a digital representation of some unique aspect of our physical bodies - most likely a finger print or an iris scan. By comparing the "biometric" data in the cards to our physical bodies, anyone authorised to read the cards and check identities will be able to confirm whether or not the cardholder is the person described by the card. The card and the cardholder together are sufficient to prove the identity of the cardholder.

Now, what's the purpose of the database?
sgmillerton

Holebender wrote:
sgmillerton wrote:
it will be backed up with data that cannot be copied such as dna/fingerprints or iris scans.


I suggest you read this article and think again. http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/make-your-own-id/#more-585



that is abscure to say the least, i doubt gordon brown will abandon id card pland after seeing thatincredible piece of science. where is the bit about iris scans/dna being faked and also my height, weight and physical issues such as scars etc.
sgmillerton

Holebender wrote:
While you're thinking of the security or otherwise of ID data, think about this:

These ID cards are supposed to contain enough information to uniquely identify each one of us. They are supposed to contain, among other things, a digital representation of some unique aspect of our physical bodies - most likely a finger print or an iris scan. By comparing the "biometric" data in the cards to our physical bodies, anyone authorised to read the cards and check identities will be able to confirm whether or not the cardholder is the person described by the card. The card and the cardholder together are sufficient to prove the identity of the cardholder.

Now, what's the purpose of the database?


so as to keep records of who has/has not got one, to back info should the card be lost etc. etc. i would have thought cards plus a back up database would have been obvious.
Holebender

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Any code can be cracked if the incentive is high enough, and having the ability to steal the identity of anyone at will is a pretty big incentive. If fingerprint data could be decyphered so quickly (and used to construct a finger print which could, in turn, fool the system) can the rest be far behind?

Height, weight, etc. are not considered "biometric" data and do you really expect to always weigh exactly what you did on the day the government weighs you???

So the database is just a backup? Why does it need to carry so much more information than the card, and why indulge in the expense of another potential loss of security when it would be just as easy to gather the data all over again if a card is lost? It's not obvious to me, but then again I don't buy these simplistic notions that ID cards will magically cut crime or deter terrorism. How's that supposed to work anyway?
agentmancuso

sgmillerton wrote:
for me this makes the need for id cards more valid. if we had them it will be much less likely for fraud to be carried out.


Doesn't it just make it even more obvious that the government will screw up the ID database too?

Quote:
it was a slow news wek last week for such a big deal to be made of this. all the information on the discs is readily available to anyone with £20 and a subscrption to a people search website. a total non-story.


I disagree. It's exactly the sort of 'safe hands' issue that makes New Labour very vulnerable in its recently conquered middle-English suburbs. And hence will likely have a significant effect on the next general election.
sgmillerton

none so blind as those who choose not to see. perfect.
Holebender

Avoiding the questions again, I see, SG.
sgmillerton

no. wasting my time trying to let you see the benfits of id cards. i'll come back to it when we all have one.
Holebender

I agree it's a waste of your time trying to let me see the benefits of ID cards for the simple reason there are none. As I will never have an ID card I suppose that means you will never come back to the subject. Neat way of avoiding the uncomfortable questions.
sgmillerton

Holebender wrote:
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Any code can be cracked if the incentive is high enough, and having the ability to steal the identity of anyone at will is a pretty big incentive. If fingerprint data could be decyphered so quickly (and used to construct a finger print which could, in turn, fool the system) can the rest be far behind?

Height, weight, etc. are not considered "biometric" data and do you really expect to always weigh exactly what you did on the day the government weighs you???

So the database is just a backup? Why does it need to carry so much more information than the card, and why indulge in the expense of another potential loss of security when it would be just as easy to gather the data all over again if a card is lost? It's not obvious to me, but then again I don't buy these simplistic notions that ID cards will magically cut crime or deter terrorism. How's that supposed to work anyway?


right, if i must

i doubt someone is going to copy my dna or iris.

no, but i do not look like i did when i had my passport picture taken 9 years ago.

i'am not concerned that the govt. would lose any data i give them. i'am perfectly happy for them to have as much info about me as they like, they are asking for nothing that that my bank, gp,dentist,insurers already know. apart from dna/iris data and i'm happy for them to have that as well.

it is increbilby tabloid of you to spout on about terrorism and crime, if you did actually know what you were talking about you'd know there is much to it than that. are id cards going to stop a terror attack or crime, no of course not, will it aid investigation and aid prevention? yes.

in 10 years time i wish you luck trying to buy insurance or get a credit card or loan or state benefits without your id card.
Holebender

I won't have an ID card because I will have emigrated to a civilised country of my choice. I do not live on credit but I'm sure my private bank in Jersey will be happy to offer me a loan if I ask for one. State benefits are not of interest to me.

Good luck explaining away why your DNA was at a crime scene because you just happened to brush up against the victim a week before the event.

You obviously missed the Scottish Parliament's vote never to require the production of an ID card for health care, state benefits, etc. in their jurisdiction.
sgmillerton

Holebender wrote:
I won't have an ID card because I will have emigrated to a civilised country of my choice. I do not live on credit but I'm sure my private bank in Jersey will be happy to offer me a loan if I ask for one. State benefits are not of interest to me.

Good luck explaining away why your DNA was at a crime scene because you just happened to brush up against the victim a week before the event.

You obviously missed the Scottish Parliament's vote never to require the production of an ID card for health care, state benefits, etc. in their jurisdiction.


so, thats why your jumping up and down so much, it's just attention seeking as it has no relevance to you.

yep, i hope i don't get charged with murder as well.............

no, but i do know it is a uk policy so that will be that and that vote, however irrelevant does not cover other institutions such as banks,travel agents and the like.

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