Dave Coull in the News of the World

RadgeJougal · Dave Coull in the News of the World

All the juicy details about forum member Dave Coull in the News of the World today.

Dearie me...

Rinty

Is there a link or is it just the Scottish edition. Dave has my sympathies even without reading the story.

The NotW is the most vile, racist, sexist, anti-trade union, anti working-class rag on the planet.

carol

Dave gave them an interview apparently

couldn't find a link

RadgeJougal

There is no link to the Scottish edition as far as I could tell.

Further confirmation that it is essentially an English paper, like the Mail, Star, Metro, Times or Telegraph.

Dave Coull

I've been trying to figure out where they got that headline "One Man's 40 Year Fight For Freedom is Dogged by Fallouts", and I've figured it out. I was asked about party political involvement, and I said I'd never been a member of any political party, but I had been involved in loads of campaigns, for instance the anti-apartheid campaign, anti-racist campaigns, anti-war campaigns, the CND, the anti-poll-tax campaign, the campaign for a Scottish Parliament, and so on and so on. I was then asked how long I had been involved in campaigning of one kind or another, and I said "oh, probably over forty years". But the way it has been presented, that headline looks like it's saying I have been involved in campaigning for independence for Scotland for forty years - which isn't true, and I didn't say that.

Members of the Determination forum are at present discussing whether the article is so bad we should make a formal complaint to the Press Council and the Ethics Committee of the NUJ. Donald says we should. Kenny says look on the bright side, a paper with a circulation of well over half a million in Scotland has published a clear photo of our posters with their message REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO, which means that far more people than we could ever reach in any other way have seen our posters with this very clear message. I understand Kenny's point, but it's not him that has been stitched up. A suggestion from another member was that we should put out a collective "Setting the record straight" statement.

The News Of The World kept phoning me about an interview. Apparently the reporter (and the photographer) fancied getting out of Glasgow for a day. I told them I was very reluctant. I consulted my fellow members of Determination and, while we knew it was a risk, the group as a whole decided I should do it, while being very, very careful about what I said to them. Well, I _WAS_ very careful, but I guess they were just determined to do a total hatchet job. I now regret ever agreeing to speak to them.

The way the NOTW article is written suggests that Determination was all my idea, which is not true, and I never said that. In fact, EVERYTHING they have "quoted" me as saying is either inaccurate, distorted, taken out of context, or all three.

First of all, the article is all about me, not "Determination", which it implies is just "my" group. This is not based on anything that I actually said, quite the opposite in fact.

They describe "Determination" as a "party" - I went out of my way to emphasise that we are NOT a party.

It says that I "run operations" - I went out of my way to emphasise that we decide on things collectively.

It says that we wrote the the UN saying we had withdrawn our complaint about the British government - I stressed that we had NOT withdrawn our complaint against the British government, just put it on hold.

It says Determination is just the latest in a line of organisations which I have joined and left, because I had fallen out with them, and it specifically mentions Scotland United, Democracy Scotland, and the Campaign for a Scottish Parliament - in actual fact the reason I quit these groups is because they were no longer needed. None of them exists nowadays, because their main focus was on getting a Scottish Parliament, an aim which was achieved several years ago.

It says "I came up with the idea of a single issue group campaigning for a referendum on independence. I also came up with the name...." That second sentence is the complete opposite of what I actually said. I said it was NOT me who came up with the name. I said Chic MacGregor came up with both names, "Independence First" and "Determination". In actual fact the latter name was suggested by Neil, but I was half right. The News Of The World managed to be one hundred percent wrong.

As for the bit about "not being inspired by anyone in history", what happened was that I was asked a question, "Is there any historical figure who has particularly inspired you?" - I think they were probably looking for me to say something like "William Wallace", which would have given them the opportunity to make "Would-be Braveheart" type comments. But what I actually said was that, offhand, I couldn't think of any historical figure who had been a particular influence on me. But they changed "Offhand I can't think of any historical figure who has been a particular influence on me" into "I am not inspired by anyone in history", which is completely different, and is something I never said!

The article says "I got my son to write a letter to the UN" - what I actually said was we had collectively asked him to do so.

The article says then we wrote another letter to the UN saying "It's okay now" - I never said that!

The article says that I said "Once we've got the referendum, then Determination will probably split up" - I never said that, either. What I said was that first we have to get our referendum, THEN we have to campaign for a "yes" vote in that referendum, and AFTER WE HAVE INDEPENDENCE then the group would probably split up, as we are not a political party, and the object of the campaign would have been achieved.

Finally, they asked me what I would be campaigning about after we had achieved independence. I pointed out that I am getting older and said that I wasn't sure I would be campaigning about ANYTHING, but, IF I was still in good health and had the energy to campaign, I thought the environment had to be a top priority. They completely distorted that, too.

The photographer took loads of photos, and I was smiling in some of them, but of course they chose to use one where I looked grim.

Oh, by the way, that's a garage my Saltire is flying from, NOT a "chicken coop" like it says in the article, and as for the "pitchfork" by our door, just right now I can think of quite a good use for it !

However, my daughter Sarah has just phoned me. I had told her I would be in the News Of The World, and she says she was actually a bit relieved because she had feared the article might be even worse. Sarah used to be a reporter herself. She says she got out of that and into PR because she had to smile and be nice to people knowing perfectly well that the article about them would be a hatchet job. She says that even if _she_ didn't want it to be a total hatchet job, the editor would be sure to turn it into one. Sarah also says the Public Relations firm which she works for nowadays also runs a news agency, and I should have talked to some of her colleagues if we wanted some favourable publicity. All I can say is I definitely won't be talking to any News Of The World reporter again.

Rinty

A "set the record straight" statement is a good idea, the compaint possibly wouldnt go too far but is worth pursuing. But, if you are going to complain ask the NotW Editor for a correction and/or apology first. If you ask them to correct a reasonable demand for clarity then is strengthens your case for a complaint elsewhere.

But, overall, the "brightside" argument is the best way to look at it. The name recognition factor for "determination" as a 'brand' will have had a boost from being in the paper.

RadgeJougal

Dave, I think you were incredibly naive with them. They made a fool of you, but I won't deny that's not exactly difficult.

Don't bother with the complaint. Tommy Sheridan's got much more clout than you do, but has got nowhere.

Rinty

"Tommy Sheridan's got much more clout than you do, but has got nowhere."

You might not have noticed, but Tommy took them to court and won £200,00!

RadgeJougal

carol

RadgeJougal

Well, some of it is true. Some of it's probably bull. It is the NOTW, and Dave should know better. But there's certainly a huge chunk of it's true AFAIK

carol

why agree to an interview with the NOTW in the first place?

they gave me the impression the article was all about Dave Coull, I was a bit suspect why IF got brought into the picture in the first place Confused

Carol

Dave Coull

"Radge Jougal" wrote

> Dave, I think you were incredibly naive with them.

I was aware that it was a risky business. I said that I was extremely reluctant to talk to them. It was a collective decision by the members of Determination that I should do so. I accepted that. I now have very mixed feelings about having done so.

> They made a fool of you

I did realise that was a possibility. However, the collective decision was that, on balance, it was a risk worth taking. And despite the embarrassment to me personally, some of our members still think the effect so far as our campaign is concerned is generally positive. Kenny argues that we should look on the bright side, a paper with a circulation of well over half a million in Scotland has published a clear photo of our posters with their message REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO, which means that far more people than we could ever reach in any other way have seen our posters with this very clear message.

> it says you live near Brechin

It depends what you consider "near". Four and a bit miles is not far if you have your own transport. If you don't have your own transport, the part of the route which goes along the main road is far too dangerous to consider walking along, and taking a safer route it's six miles, and there are only a couple of buses a day. You can catch the five to twelve bus into Brechin, spend half an hour doing shopping, then catch the 12.40pm bus back. The bit in News Of The World about me "not helping his wife with the shopping" was another complete distortion by them. It's usually me that does the shopping. On that particular day, precisely BECAUSE they would be arriving to interview me between 12noon and 1pm, Keri did the shopping.

> which you deny elsewhere

No, what happened was that YOU said I was "fae Brechin". THAT was what I denied. On the 8th of August I wrote "Radge Jougal writes 'Aye, Dave Coull has 'never spent the night in Brechin' - that's right. Unlike folk who hide behind false names, I never lie. I'm not 'fae Brechin', and in fact I have never slept a single night within the boundaries of the City of Brechin in all my sixty six years. I have slept in Aberdeen, Aden, Axminster, Bahrein, Barcelona, Burnley, Corby, Dundee, Edinburgh, Ferryden, Glasgow, Llandanwg, London, Los Angeles, Manchester, Montrose, Newcastle, Paris, Port Glasgow, Prague, San Francisco, Scunthorpe, and Ullapool, but never Brechin".

Dave Coull

Carol wrote "I was a bit suspect why IF got brought into the picture in the first place" - the News Of The World asked me about how we came to form Determination, and when it was formed. But of course it is entirely possible they knew something about this even _before_ they spoke to me. After all, how did they come to contact me in the first place? Almost certainly because reporters read forums like "Our Scotland", to see what they can pick up. Some reporter will probably be reading this exchange.

carol

Dave your report on various forums re 5th September, gives the impression that you and others are completely disorganised etc, who is going to take you guys seriously after this episode? It has proven not to be the best route to get publicity across and if anything has brought ridicule to yourselves. Any feedback I've received has been very negative

Rinty

"You might not have noticed but the NOTW still hasn't paid, and doesn't intend to!"

It's called an appeal, in the end they will have to pay, whether they "intend" to or not. There will be some developments this week in fact.

Dave Coull

Carol wrote (regarding the report on this and other forums of our wee demonstration at the Scottish parliament on 5th September) "Any feedback I've received has been very negative" - well, OF COURSE it has, Carol! However, the "feedback" which WE have received has been somewhat different..............

"who is going to take you guys seriously after this episode?" - My report of our action on 5th September was DELIBERATELY humorous, Carol. For instance, the bit about Kenny's incredulous remark "You're sending Donald to the pub? Bye bye, Donald". Some of us have a sense of humour, and some of us think it is actually an _advantage_ to have a sense of humour. You will note that, although we have complained about numerous inaccuracies in the News Of The World story, the thing we have NOT complained about is their "Monty Python" analogy. They even managed to find a picture of three Python actors in which John Cleese is looking at the one on the right in almost exactly the same way as Donald is looking at me in the other photo. No complaint about that from me! I thought that was funny!

"It has proven not to be the best route to get publicity across" - oh, we have certainly succeeded in getting publicity across, there is absolutely no question at all about that! It has been extremely embarrassing for me personally, but Kenny's attitude is "What getting the article in the paper DOES do is to raise awareness of Determination and its campaign.....Look at the facts: we had a small protest, 4 people. This was then reported in a major national newspaper. I might be calculating and cynical, but I’d say 'job done'.......Now, the newspaper article might not have been of the spin we’d want, but all the information needed is on the three posters youse are holding up". Okay, so it's not Kenny they took the mickey out of, but, despite being the target of ridicule, I can see his point about our posters with the message REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO being seen by
half a million people in Scotland.

carol

nothing to do with the humorous side of things Dave, I was not referring to that, it was the organising of the demo, publicity etc, although the antics you describe did make you look like a load of bungling eejits

the article was a piss take, a stitch up you call it, gives no credibility to Determination whatsoever

parkhead_rfb

made him look like an odd ball nutter.

Dave Coull

Carol wrote "the article was a piss take, a stitch up you call it, gives no credibility to Determination whatsoever" - yes, the article was a piss take, and yes, although it was our collective decision that I should do so, I do kinda regret agreeing to speak to Jacqueline McGhie from the News Of The World. However, unlike some folk, I really don't see things just in terms of personalities. Or in terms of party politics, come to that. Leave aside my personal embarrassment. Leave aside what you call the "credibility of Determination". We are not a political party, and we are not asking for anybody's vote. Look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that half a million folk saw a photo of posters with one very simple, clear-cut message: REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO. So, from that point of view, despite my own personal discomfort, Kenny was quite right to argue it was a case of "job done".

carol

obviously not wanting to be taken seriously either from the message you're putting across

Well Dave best of luck, I look forward to more of your 'reports' and the hilarious antics that you and other members get up to

Dave Coull

Carol wrote "obviously not wanting to be taken seriously either from the message you're putting across" - that's strange, Carol. I really am quite shocked. I remember when you used to be in favour of independence for Scotland. When did you stop being in favour of independence for Scotland, Carol? I remember when you used to be in favour of a referendum on independence for Scotland. When did you stop being in favour of a referendum on independence for Scotland, Carol? Or is it just the "now" bit that you have recently come to disagree with? Maybe you have just recently decided it's okay to wait a few years, or maybe another couple of centuries, perhaps? So, your slogan would be "What do we want? A referendum! When do we want it? Oh, there's no great rush, we don't want to cause any inconvenience, just whenever you can manage to get around to it!"

The fact of the matter is, the late Donald Dewar, for all his faults, had a referendum on setting up a Scottish Parliament organised within just a few months of his party taking office. That PROVED that a referendum can be organised very quickly indeed where there is the political will to organise one. Yes, of course, by "NOW" what is meant is "very quickly indeed, within just a few months, like the late Donald Dewar, for all his faults, managed to do some years ago, for instance", but that is far too many words to be clearly visible when written on a poster, so we use "NOW" as shorthand. True, it might be quite difficult to get a referendum bill through the Scottish Parliament at present, but that is no reason for letting opponents of a referendum, opponents of self-determination, opponents of democracy, off the hook. Some of us still believe in campaigning for a referendum on independence for Scotland, on a non-party-political basis.

REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO !

RadgeJougal

RadgeJougal

Dave Coull

Radge Jougal wrote

> I used to walk that kind of distance to work every day

I used to walk a lot too. But I'm getting older. My doctor tells me I may need a knee-replacement operation. In any case, this is irrelevant.

> I'd still count that as "Brechin"

Newport-on-Tay is less than two miles from Dundee. But if you try to tell somebody born on the Fife side of the Tay that they are "fae Dundee", they will indignantly deny this. Besides, I am sixty six years old. For just the last three years of my life, I have lived in a place where Brechin is the nearest town. For the previous SIXTY THREE years of my life, I lived in places where Brechin was NOT the nearest town. You said I was "fae Brechin". You were wrong.

Dave Coull

Radge Jougal asked "Do you really want to campaign on green issues, like the article says?" - Why ask a question which has already been answered? See my first post under this subject heading.

RadgeJougal

RadgeJougal

carol

tends to be in this area a hamlet, dotted houses here and there etc will come under the nearest main town or village

Dave Coull

"Radge Jougal" wrote "You lived in London (where you wore a tie)"

No, when I was in London, I was working as a bricklayer on building sites, so I didn't normally wear a tie. There was ONE occasion when I did, and only two people who were there on that occasion would have had any reason to notice that I did. One of those two people is now dead. Somebody posted on a forum pretending to be the other one. I was very suspicious, so, to test that person, and see whether they were who they claimed to be or not, I sent them a private message asking them a question about that tie, to which somebody operating under a false identity would not have known the answer. I now know who "Radge Jougal" is. The moderator/owner of that forum did some checking and was able to tell me the real identity of the person who had posted as someone else. You, "Radge Jougal", are that same person who pretended to be somebody else, and who received that private message, but was unable to answer my question. I also know now why you persist in pestering me with such ridiculous trivia as this. I'm sorry you have had so many disappointments in your personal and professional life, but that is nothing to do with me. I seriously suggest you get some psychiatric help.

"Newport is a hell of a lot bigger than any of the places between Forfar and Brechin"

So what? That's completely irrelevant. You said I was "fae Brechin". When you say where somebody is "fae", you are identifying where they COME FROM originally, not where they happen to be at a particular point in time. An oil industry worker might sometimes be on an oil rig in the middle of the North Sea, and sometimes in Aberdeen, and yet be FAE Glesca. Not only am I not "fae" Brechin, in all of my sixty six years I have never spent a single night in Brechin. I have spent nights in Aberdeen, Aden, Axminster, Bahrein, Barcelona, Burnley, Corby, Dundee, Edinburgh, Ferryden, Glasgow, Llandanwg, London, Los Angeles, Manchester, Montrose, Newcastle, Paris, Port Glasgow, Prague, San Francisco, Scunthorpe, and Ullapool, but never Brechin. And I'm not "fae" any of the wee placies between Forfar and Brechin either.

RadgeJougal

Actually Dave, you're way off the scent. I'm not that person. Try again. However, your silly story about the tie is doing the rounds... you got rumbled as a poser yourself with that story - you only met your "great pal" once..

"I seriously suggest you get some psychiatric help."

Had many close friendships in your life, Dave?

Have you looked in the mirror recently? Did the sheep shearer style your hair or something? Use some deodorant for a start, please!!!

"Not only am I not "fae" Brechin"

Aye, ye are. Ye're jist a wee pedant, so ye are. Fowk fae Aiberdeen an Dundee wull nivver ken ilka twa hooses atween the twa toons. Ye stey unner ten miles oot ay Brechin so ye dae bide bi Brechin.

"And I'm not "fae" any of the wee placies between Forfar and Brechin either."

Nor fae Planet Earth by the looks of your daft interview.

"but never Brechin."

Just five mile away, eh? Rolling Eyes

What did you hope to achieve with the News of the World anyway?

p.s. Is "Love Actually" really your favourite film?

Dave Coull

Let's go back to what started this off.

Members of Determination, the non-aligned campaign for self-determination for Scotland, held a small demonstration at the Scottish Parliament. The purpose of that demo, as clearly stated on our posters, was to demand REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO.

As a result, a reporter for the News Of The World kept pestering me about wanting to do an interview. I consulted with my colleagues in Determination, and they said go ahead, but be cautious, you know what the News Of The World is like.

The News Of The World did indeed print an article which was down to its usual gutter standards of "journalism". However, one positive thing was that they printed a photo of us which very clearly showed the message on our posters, REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO.

However, some folk are incapable of seeing things in terms of principles, and incapable of discussing things in terms of principles. Such folk prefer not to talk about campaigning for independence for Scotland, but only about personal trivia. Such a person is the coward who attempts to hide behind the false name Radge Jougal.

Everything that Radge writes is designed to avoid actually discussing things that matter. Radge probably does disagree with our message REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO , but he is incapable of conducting a rational argument about matters of principle, so like the News Of The World he continually tries to drag the argument down into the gutter.

As for me, I will continue to press the message REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO.

carol

Dave Coull

Hmmmm.......

Something about this exchange rings a bell.

I wrote about a certain forum (not Our Scotland) "The moderator/owner of that forum did some checking and was able to tell me the real identity of the person who had posted as someone else".

Note that we're not just talking about the use of a pseudonym here. We are talking about deliberately impersonating another person. I am delighted that the liar was exposed.

Carol comments "breach of confidentiality" - frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

carol

doesn't matter what that person was doing issue is between forum owner and the individual

RadgeJougal

The trouble is, Dave, that I didn't impersonate anyone. Not even your London "friend".

However, I did hear about it. It caused much amusement in some quarters.

A bad stunt, a bit like your NOTW interview. A bad stunt, but not one I was responsible for.

No "Impersonation Actually" in the March of the Penguins

Dave Coull

The cowardly liar who tries to hide behind the false name Radge Jougal wrote "I didn't impersonate anyone" - your pal did. Deliberate impersonation of somebody else with intent to deceive. LYING in other words. I have nothing but total contempt for liars.

" Not even your London 'friend' " - I have many friends in London. As for your assurance that you have never impersonated any of them, I find assurances from somebody using a false name completely worthless.

"No impersonation actually in the March of the Penguins" - the News Of The World had decided on a particular angle even before the "interviewed" me, and when it turned out that the facts didn't fit their "angle", they just made things up. Not only was their story wrong on important political points, it was even wrong on trivial details. Unlike some other animals, the emperor penguin is noted for the major role played by the male in raising the offspring. As well as several grown-up offspirng, I have a wife and a teenage daughter. As acknowledgement of the major role which I play in raising my offspring, my wife put a poster on our wall celebrating that household of three. It shows a daddy penguin and a mummy penguin and the chick they are raising. The caption on the poster is "One COOL family". Which of course is exactly what we are. One COULL family. You, on the other hand, belong in the gutter, along with the News Of The World.

"Please, support the campaign financially" - you sound like a cracked bell. Piss off, you are notoriously dishonest and nobody should give you a single penny. The campaign is leaving you behind.

REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO.

mairead

DaveCoull,

Well done in raising the profile of Determination. You are not the first person and wont be the last, who has had to suffer an amount of ridicule for a just cause.
At least you have spoken out and if all independence minded people could just unite instead of trying to outdo each other to gain self importance, it would be a big step in the right direction.

iainmhor

Dave Coull

Mairead says "DaveCoull, Well done" - thanks! Mairead also wrote "if all independence minded people could just unite instead of trying to outdo each other to gain self importance, it would be a big step in the right direction" - as for me, I don't want to try to outdo anybody in importance. The next time any reporter from any paper wants to interview somebody, they can interview somebody else, and definitely NOT me. Ianmohr adds "Thats not to suppress debate over tactics and strategy but it should always be conducted constructively and fraternally". I don't think we can have a "unity" which is just an agreement not to say anything, we do have to debate tactics and strategy, but yes, I agree these should be debated constructively. Whether people agree or disagree with the slogan which we put forward, " REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO ", I would be happy if they could debate the implications of this slogan constructively.

mairead

Yes Dave, but therein lies the problem.
Many folk do not know how to debate constructively. Most debates usually end up as nothing more than an argument which soon descends into insulting and rude behaviour. With some folk, it's a case of 'My way or the Highway'

Aventinian

I feel rather left out not getting to see this.

carol

I'm surprised Dave hasn't posted it here

Holebender

I'm surprised Carol hasn't posted it here. I expect she's rather proud of it.

carol

Neil got the impression that you and the rest of Determination were proud of it

Aventinian

So who here aside from Dave himself is actually a member of this Determination lark?

RadgeJougal

Dave - they made a joke of you, distorted details, and didn't even leave a contact for you!

Never trust the press, or most of it.

Mind, I think you should have filmed the entire interview, in case you wanted to set the record straight.

I really don't think you are in any position to call anyone cracked - after all, how many friends and allies have you lost due to your need to argue, even when it isn't constructive?

"Piss off, you are notoriously dishonest and nobody should give you a single penny. The campaign is leaving you behind."

I am talking about the campaign for independence, not any organisation in particular. Organisations don't matter in the long run - demented argumentative cranks may do.

You don't know anything about dealing with the press.

RadgeJougal

Dave Coull

Radge Jougal continues his peculiar obsession with me, asking "how many friends and allies have you lost due to your need to argue, even when it isn't constructive?"

Well that's a difficult question, and I'm honestly not sure, but my guess would be that it's quite possible the answer to that question could be "none".

Offhand, I can't think of a single person in the pro-democracy, pro-independence movement, who I ever regarded as my friend, and who does not continue to be my friend.

As for "allies", so far as I know, those who were always campaigning for the same things as me are still campaigning for the same things as me.

It is quite obvious from your own posts, "Radge Jougal", that you are neither a friend nor an ally, and you never were. You have NEVER sought to discuss constructively here on this Our Scotland forum. You have consistently been guilty of personal abuse against me, and you have been warned about that by moderators of this forum. It is a matter of regret to me that you have sometimes managed to drag me down to your level. Unlike you, my preference has always been to try to discuss things on the level of principles, policy, strategy, and tactics.

Dave Coull

The person who uses the pseudonym "Radge Jougal" (translation, Mad Dog) asks

> What do you think of the SNP's proposals?

So, for the first time ever, Mad Dog seeks to create the impression of wanting to discuss things constructively? Frankly, given his long track record of nothing but personal abuse, I am wary of this apparent change of heart. So, before commenting, I want to know exactly, specifically, to which proposals the question refers.

Babygael

Oh boy! IMO for the past 300 years, Scotlands Independence has never been so real,the Unionist media are looking for known supporters of Independence to invite for interviews and so on in order to discredit them. Well I guess that is understandable, but what is worse is the in fighting between the Independent supporters!

It is YOU who will discredit the whole thing! Put aside your personal feelings, for the Freedom of scotland and its people are at stake here.

mairead

Sadly BG, I have to agree with you. If there is one big stumbling block to independence, it is all the groups who are squabbling and slagging off the others instead of putting on a united front at this time. The unionists must be laughing their socks off.
It is one thing to disagree with what someone else says, but quite another to pour scorn on someone else's opinions, especially when the long term ideals are the same, and to sneer when one independendist is ridiculed in the press instead of rallying round that person, is pathetic to say the least.
Dave Coull may well say things which not everyone agrees with, but his heart is in the right place, and he wants the same as the rest of us who seek independence.
I support Dave in what he is trying to achieve as I support others who seek a free Scotland although I may not necessarily share all his views and I applaud him for speaking out in the press.
I don't applaud the so called independentists who can do little else but try to ridicule him because of personal grievances and because of their desire to be the 'big cheeses' in our struggle.

carol

Dave Coull

Babygael wrote "Put aside your personal feelings, for the Freedom of Scotland and its people are at stake here".

Go back to the top of this thread, Babygael. Note that the topic "Dave Coull in the News Of The World" was initiated by Radge Jougal, who, in the very first message, gleefully noted "all the juicy details about forum member Dave Coull......dearie me".

I have always tried to discuss things in terms of principles, policies, strategy, and tactics. Radge Jougal, on the other hand, from the time when he first appeared on this Our Scotland forum, has always been more interested in "juicy" personal trivia.

As regards the actual article in the News Of The World, it can be _proved_ to be inaccurate in quite a few different ways, and every single alleged "quote" from me which it contains can be proved to be a mis-quote. NEVERTHELESS, one thing which that article did _not_ contain is any instance of me making an attack on any other supporter of independence for Scotland. Believe me, their reporter did try to trap me into a "juicy" quote of that nature, and failed. The ONLY quote in that article which was attacking any other supporter of independence for Scotland came from CAROL ROSCOE. Not from me. So, Babygael, you know who your appeal "Put aside your personal feelings, for the Freedom of Scotland and its people are at stake here" needs to be directed at, and it isn't me. I have never had any problem with discussing principles, policies, strategy, and tactics without letting personal feelings interfere.

REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO

carol

carol

I read somewhere that the interview was recorded by the NOTW

carol

Dave Coull

Carol wrote "I read somewhere that the interview was recorded by the NOTW".

Yes. I was advised to make my own recording, but I had no means of doing so, and I had no money to spend on the means of doing so. Yet another instance where the law is on the side of the rich. However, their own tape recording would prove that many of their alleged "quotes" are inaccurate. I have been advised to demand a copy of the tape recording, on the grounds that it will prove I was misrepresented. At present I am considering whether the letter demanding a copy of that tape recording would be better coming from me or from a lawyer acting on my behalf.

Dave Coull

Carol asked "what are you doing about a referendum now?"

Well, one thing I am doing is advocating this in the "national conversation" inaugurated by Alex Salmond. If you go to the Scottish Government web page
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics...conversation/Tell-us/Blog/fmblog1
you will find at least 38 messages from me on Alex Salmond's site, plus another 2 on Bruce Crawford's page, another 1 on John Swinney's, then on the "Down To Detail" pages you will find another 7. A total of at least 48 contributions from me to the National Conversation, most of them explicitly arguing the case for a referendum on independence now. I say "at least" because the sites need updating and there's another couple of contributions from me pending.

also, take a look at

http://www.taghairmdubh.com/determination.htm

So, Carol, what are YOU doing?
(Attending meetings doesn't count.)

carol

juggling kids (school hols), pet rabbits and feathered friends Wink

on a serious note thanks for your links I'll check them out when I get a minute

As for on the independence front, actively with the help/support of others, organising an event, most of the initial work will be at the pc

Carol

carol

photos took a while to load, nice to see a fit looking Donald, not quite a happy looking bunch, good pics though. Pity there weren't more folk there, or publicity circulating beforehand

mairead

Carol wrote
"and you are part of that cycle Margaret"

I am only part of the cycle who does not view you as the almighty saviour of Scotland Carol. You cause ructions everywhere, if someone does not fall into line with your points of view.
As for my belief in independence. Yes indeed I am for independence.
I support ANYONE who shares that belief however as I also stated, I do not support those who are in it for their own glory. Perhaps that is why I do not support you and it is certainly why I didn't join Inde 1st. Activists are one thing, megalomaniacs are quite another.
You have absolutely no knowlege whatsoever of my activities towards independence, but when it comes to sneering at other people, particularly on a personal dislike basis, you are in a class of your own my dear. If Independence was truly your aim, you would support EVERYONE who advocated for it, but you have a great inability to put your own personal feelings to the side and look at things from another's perspective.
I daresay that it has never occurred to you that you are also in that cycle Carol, no of course it hasn't, silly me.

carol

mairead

OOOh Carol,
I certainly am taken very seriously by those who know me a lot better than you do and by those who know the bit I play for independence.

Unlike my friend? ah but you would so love it if folk would bow down and kiss your hand, and that is your problem, you don't like it when no-one does.

RadgeJougal

RadgeJougal

RadgeJougal

carol

Dave Coull

Radge Jougal wrote "They should have interviewed one of the other two people in the picture instead" - great idea. Why didn't I think of that? Oh, because some other members of Determination thought it better for me
to be the one taking the risk. Okay, so I did, just this once, but the next time some reporter wants to interview somebody, it definitely won't be me. In the words of one of the two other people in that photo, Donald, "Dave
may be irritating, to those going off at a tangent, but he is logical, never rude or abusive, and never self seeking.
He didn't want any posts, put the cause first, and kept trying to bring others on." In the words of the other person
in that photo, Raymond, "I wanted Dave to be our spokesman".

There were four of us on that protest. The other one, who took most of the photos but appears in some of them, was Kenny. Kenny wrote on his blog "Dave stood up when he didn't have to, and put himself on the line and risked a lot for a good cause. You may not like him. Right now, I officially could not give a crap whether any of you liked him or not. HE had the balls to stand up. AND he attempted to liaise with the press to get his message across.
He got burned. He should not be slagged off, he should be f***ing lauded. And for those people who put their personal opinions of a human being before the fight for independence. My message to you is If you don't like
a human being, or how that human being has treated you, then fine. But if you put that personal dislike before
the fight before Scottish Independence, and bitch on the internet: I'm officially done with you. A reality check here, bitching on internet forums isn't going to free Scotland. Protests outside the Scottish Parliament are going to do
a LOT better than me typing on this blog and YOU typing on whatever forum you prefer. And incidentally... you've got three hundred f***ing years of oppression to bitch about from the Brits and there are people who seem to prefer policing the Independence movement than getting stuck into the unionists. Did I miss a meeting? Did I miss
the point of who the enemy was? For those of you who claim to believe in Independence and have used forums
to slag Dave off, You need to sort your priorities out. You need to ask yourself which side you're on. And more importantly, you should be really f***ing ashamed of yourself.

So... you have an opinion about how an Independence Activist conducts themselves? Cry me a river, see how much of a crap I give, go sort yourself out and show the rest of us how IT SHOULD BE DONE"

(End of quote from Kenny)

carol

Dave I think if Kenny wanted his views posted on an internet forum he would've done it himself

Dave Coull

Returning to his usual mode of personal abuse, Radge Jougal wrote "you've nothing else to do in that chicken shed of yours except bang your keyboard" - if you are referring to what it said in the News Of The World, the reference to a "chicken coop" was just one of the numerous inaccuracies in that News Of The World article, a figment of the so-called reporter's imagination, like so much else. If you are referring to my house, (1) okay so it isn't a mansion, unlike you, I'm not rich (2) also unlike you, I am not too chicken to put my real name on what I say

"You can't stand the taste of your own medicine" - I have always, at all times, sought to conduct debate on the level of discussing principles, policies, strategy, and tactics. Although I admit there have been quite a few times when I have fallen short of the standard which I set myself, every time this happened, that falling short was _always_ IN RESPONSE to personal abuse aimed at myself. In your particular case, "Radge Jougal" appeared on this Our Scotland forum and immediately set about a totally unprovoked campaign of personal vilification of myself. If you are claiming that I have dished out similar "medicine" to yourself, or to somebody close to you, in the past, then try to pluck up the courage to post under your own name, and produce any "evidence" you have for such an accusation. (And I _DO_ mean "evidence", not rumour/hearsay.)

Dave Coull

Carol wrote "Dave I think if Kenny wanted his views posted on an internet forum he would've done it himself" - he did. Like quite a lot of other members of Determination, Kenny chooses not to (as he sees it) waste his time arguing about this with folk like you, but the quote was from his blog, which is a public forum.

carol

Really? As for folk like me, if Kenny had any problems with me he would say it to my face, or through other communications. As yet not a beep

I'll say again if he wanted the contents from his blog on an internet forum he would've posted it here himself.

it's clear from his blog that it should not be open for discussion on here

mairead

"Getting above myself Carol"? I think you are confusing your attitude with mine.

carol

Unlike yourself I have no airs and graces

Dave Coull

Radge Jougal wrote "let's hear what you think of the people who have actually put the idea of a referendum forward" - I have myself, along with colleagues, been putting forward the idea of a referendum on independence for several years. Are you asking me what I think of my colleagues and myself?

"The SNP is offering a referendum, in case you hadn't noticed." - ah, but just in case it should turn out to be "a referendum one of these years", just in case it should turn out to be "a referendum in the sweet-bye-and-bye", there is every reason for keeping the pressure up, not just on the SNP government, but on the Parliament as a whole, on MSPs of _ALL_ parties. When we first formed a campaign for an independence referendum, it was intended to be on a strictly non-party-political basis. Now, it's possible some folk might prefer that there should no longer be a non-party-political campaign for a referendum on independence, but I'm not one of those folk.

"What do you think of the question they're proposing, for example?" - well, "Mad Dog", since you are obviously a party animal, you will have to remind me of the exact wording being proposed. In general, I would say, as members of both Independence First and Determination have been saying for several years now, that the question should be a simple, straightforward, independence-yes-or-no type question.

Alex Salmond invited us to take part in a National Conversation. I have taken up Alex's invitation. But of course the conversation is NOT just with Alex, it is NOT just with the SNP, it is a "national" conversation. It is certainly not just a case of preaching to the converted. I have made numerous contributions to that national conversation, putting the case for

REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO

to unionists, nationalists, and folk who fit neither category.

mairead

That comment left me speechless Carol. You have 'no airs and graces?' Say it often enough and you might convince yourself it's true, but you sure won't convince many others. LOL You have made Airs and Graces into a fine art.

mairead

Radge,
We all know the newspapers twist and contort everything and take things out of context.
The point I think, is that even bad publicity is better than no publicity and Dave is deeply committed to independence so should be given some support, not derided over a newspaper article.
I just get brassed off when people sneer at someone because of their convictions, (on any subject).

carol

Still in fantasy land Margaret. Just because I took a stance against your prince you continue to put the boot in

carol

mairead

Thanks Carol. LOL, You have just won me £10. I had a bet on with another poster that you would bring that up before too long.
Seems like when you are stuck for a reply you always revert to the same old, same old.
I think you need to move on a bit dear. I don't focus on the past like you seem to, the future is much more exciting.
Still, if you have nothing else to talk about...............

carol

you really have it in for me, so much for your sense of unity, you cannot see past your land of fantasy

It's you that's needing to move on

mairead

No Carol,
I don't have it in for you, and I never mentioned anything regarding you, until you sarcastically took it upon yourself to tell me that I was part of a cycle.
Seems that anything I post in a general sense gets a nippy reply from you, but so be it.
If you don't want nippy comments back, don't post snide comments in the first place.
I gave my opinion and in so doing, I gave some support to Dave Coull. I mentioned no particular person, you then took it upon yourself to snipe at me, so don't whine when it comes back to you.

As to moving on, I'm just where I want and need to be with my life at present. I appear to move on a lot quicker than you do though, and my sense of unity is apparently much stronger than yours, because, while I may disagree with other viewpoints, I will support anyone who truly supports the need for independence and is able to take on board other peoples opinions.
I am capable of debate you see, without the need to turn a subject into a vulgar slanging match and personal insulting.

Dave Coull

The News Of The World article described me as "dotty" and "crackpot". We all know more or less what that means, but I looked these words up in the dictionary. One of the words used to define both was "eccentric". The first meaning of "eccentric" in the dictionary is "unconventional and slightly strange". So the NOTW could say "oh, we didn't mean any harm by that, we just meant Dave is a bit unconventional". The Press Complaints Commission is run by the press. It is an industry self-regulating body. The people on it are reporters and editors. So they are well aware that deciding any complaint against one of their own could backfire on themselves in the future. For this reason, I am wondering whether to pursue a "complaint" through the Press Complaints Commission or not. On the other hand, going down a different route is a possibility. I am consulting others and expect to reach a decision within the next week. Donald thought the best way to go about things was to have a letter of complaint signed by as many of the members and supporters of Determination as possible. But although the article was inaccurate about Determination as a group, the only individual person actually defamed in it was myself. Perhaps the first step would be to demand a copy of their tape. But there is the question as to whether it would be better for a letter putting this demand to come from me, or from a lawyer acting on my behalf. Also, I have been advised on good authority that, since the article was so inaccurate, I have a good case for demanding a right of reply. After all, they had a two page spread about me, they could allow me a few column inches to correct their mistakes. Again, there is the question as to whether a letter demanding this would be better coming from myself, or from somebody else on my behalf.

Note that one thing I'm NOT complaining about was the juxtaposition of a photo from our demo and of the Monty Python photo. They even managed to find a photo where John Cleese was looking at whatsisname with almost the same expression as Donald was looking at me. I actually found that highly amusing. However, almost EVERYTHING the News Of The World "quoted" me as saying was either inaccurate, distorted, taken out of context, or all three.

Mairead wrote "We all know the newspapers twist and contort everything and take things out of context". Some papers are worse than others. The News Of The World, for instance. Here are just some (not all) of the ways in which their article twisted and contorted things.

The article gives the impression that "Determination" is just my group. I didn't say anything to suggest that, and this impression was very unfair to other members, who are all on an equal basis.

The article describes "Determination" as a "party" - in fact I went out of my way to emphasise that Determination is NOT a political party. My wife Keri was present for at least part of the time, and she can verify that she heard me correcting the News Of The World reporter when the word "party" was used. One thing that all political parties have in common is that they seek to achieve governmental office of some kind, at some level. WE DO NOT. Another thing that all political parties have in common is that they tend to be mutually exclusive. You can't be a member of the Labour Party AND the SNP, you can't be a member of the LibDems AND the Green Party, you can't be a member of the Tory Party _and_ UKIP, you can't be a member of the SSP AND Solidarity. BUT you can be a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, AND Friends of the Earth, AND Greenpeace, because these are non-party-political campaigns, not parties.

We don't have any ban on dual memberships, so we are a campaign, not a "party".

(In one respect, the "Monty Python" analogy, while quite funny, is a bit misleading - the chief characteristic of the small "Judean liberation" groups in that film is that they are mutually exclusive. If you are a member of one, you can NOT be a member of another. In our case, we recognise that Determination is simply one small part of a wider pro-democracy and pro-independence movement.)

The News Of The World said that I "ran operations" so far as our campaign is concerned - this wasn't based on anything I actually said, I stressed that we decide things collectively, on an equal basis.

The News Of The World article said Determination was just the latest in a line of organisations which I joined and then left because I had fallen out with them. The article specifically stated that I had fallen out with Scotland United, Democracy Scotland, and the Campaign for a Scottish Parliament. None of that was true. In actual fact the reason for ANYBODY no longer being a member of any of these campaigns is that none of them exist nowadays. A campaigning group exists to achieve a specific purpose. The specific purpose of all of these campaigns mentioned by the News Of The World was to achieve a Scottish Parliament. That objective was achieved on the 12th of May 1999.

The News Of The World article "quoted" me as saying about Independence First "I left and took about four members with me" - that alleged "quote" is complete fiction. I said no such thing. I stressed that I wasn't a "leader", so of course I didn't expect anybody to "follow" me. Also, the truth is that FIFTEEN members (not four) resigned from Independence First and formed Determination, twelve of them by signing a collective resignation letter stating their reasons of PRINCIPLE for doing so, and the others by individual letters of resignation. However, "A lot of folk, including Dave, resigned from ONE group" is a very different thing from "the latest in a line of organisations which Dave joined and then left because he had fallen out with them".

The News Of The World reporter did ask me leading questions designed to try to trap me into saying negative things about other supporters of independence for Scotland. But they got no such quote from me. The ONLY quote in their article which was attacking any other supporter of independence for Scotland came from CAROL ROSCOE. Not from me.

The News Of The World article quoted me as saying "I came up with the idea of a single issue group campaigning for a referendum on independence. I also came up with the name...." - I have never claimed that I came up with the name for any campaign, and the News Of The World's own tape recording would prove that this alleged "quote" was inaccurate.

The News Of The World article "quoted" me as saying "Once we've got the referendum, then Determination will probably split up" again, this is a misquote, as could easily be shown from the tape recording of the interview. The actual position is that first we have to get a simple, straightforward referendum on independence, THEN we have to campaign for a "yes" vote in that referendum, then AFTER WE HAVE ACHIEVED INDEPENDENCE, the group would probably split up, as we are not a political party, and the object of the campaign would have been achieved. It is quite possible that personal connections made during the campaign would remain, but the group as such would have achieved its objective.

Apart from these significant political mistakes, the News Of The World article was even inaccurate on minor details. The "flag on a chicken coop", for instance, exists only in their reporter's imagination. That's a garage. An old garage, but, nevertheless, a structure that has in the past contained a car, but never at any time contained any chickens.

The News Of The World set out to write a story with a particular "angle", and, when it turned out the facts just didn't fit that angle, they made things up.

carol

Dave Coull

Carol wrote (to Mairead) "I'm totally fed up on being bogged down with the likes of you and Dave".

This thread about "Dave Coull in the News Of The World" was started by Radge Jougal, who rejoiced in the "juicy" details. Your own immediate reaction to the defamatory article, Carol, was that, for you, it "made a dull Sunday a bright day "

I have repeatedly stated that every single "quote" from me in the News Of The World article was in fact a mis-quote. Nevertheless, I did manage to avoid giving them anything which they could interpret as a personal attack on anybody else. Their article contained just ONE example of a personal attack on another supporter of independence for Scotland. That personal attack in the News Of The World came from YOU , Carol, not me.

By now there have been nearly 90 messages here on the Free Scotland forum about this topic. Why so many? Because YOU chose to get "bogged down". That's why. Me, I would much prefer to discuss principles, policies, strategy, and tactics.

mairead

Carol,
I am the first to admit that you do have excellent and effective organising skills, and never have I tried to take that away from you.
I just wish you would concentrate on that, which you do so well, and leave off the smart assed remarks which you do not do nearly as effectively.
I just can't abide your sneering and sarcasm to posters who have different opinions to yours.
It is never very clever to try to put other people down, and every time you try it with me, I WILL come back at you.

I am aware that you have suffered from depression, which is not a nice complaint to have, and I am sorry you suffer from it, but as I have told you several times before, stop trying to get the better of everyone and you won't get yourself into a state.
You frequently infer that it is other people, including me, who bring on your depressive incidents when in fact it is you who does this to yourself
with your constant haranguing of posters.
It's all about choice Carol, If you don't agree with a post, you have the choice to ignore it. You usually choose not to do this, then seem surprised when others come back at you.
I see many posts which I don't agree with but I just choose not to respond to them, I exercise my CHOICE.
perhaps you should consider doing likewise.

PS. We all have many friends who support us, you are not alone in having friends you know.

RadgeJougal

RadgeJougal

"The article specifically stated that I had fallen out with Scotland United, Democracy Scotland, and the Campaign for a Scottish Parliament. None of that was true. In actual fact the reason for ANYBODY no longer being a member of any of these campaigns is that none of them exist nowadays."

Sure, but did you really fall out with them while they still existed?

"The "flag on a chicken coop", for instance, exists only in their reporter's imagination. That's a garage. An old garage, but, nevertheless, a structure that has in the past contained a car, but never at any time contained any chickens."

Fair enough - but you didn't expect the truth from the NOTW did you? It looks a bit like one, I suppose, because it's a wooden building.

carol

mairead

Geez Carol,
You're at it again with Dave, sniping and sneering. You really don't take much on board do you.
As for the 90 odd posts, 27 of them are yours, so whose trumpet is blowing the loudest then

Don't bother to reply, it's a waste of time and finger muscles trying to point anything out to you. I can only assume you ENJOY being nasty.

Just noticed the last lines of one of your previous post on this page.

"It's you who will flat on your face"

No idea what you refer to there I am afraid. Seems to me you are the one who is forever falling, usually over your own mouth.

Toodle Pip then.

mairead

Dave,
I really wouldn't waste anymore of your time bothering about Carol's comments.
She can't help herself.
It would seem that some of her efforts towards independence consist of bad mouthing, criticising and sneering at others who also support Independence, but don't share her views.

I think you have openly shown your determination (no pun intended) to do your bit for Independence and as I said earlier, Good on you. There will always be detractors like Carol, it keeps them happy to be attacking others.

Best wishes,
Mairead

carol