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| parkhead_rfb |
demonstration for gazaSATURDAY 3 JANUARY:NATIONAL DEMONSTRATION AND RALLY (LONDON) Assemble 12:30pm Along Embankment, by Embankment tube station, LONDON WC2 - Nearest tube Embankment or Charing Cross GLASGOW Assemble 12 noon Outside Lloyds TSB St Vincent Street then assemble for demo at Blytheswood Square 2pm EDINBURGH Assemble 12 noon. Foot of the Mound, Princes Street |
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| Rinty |
Lloyds TSB are deliberately blocking humanitarian funds to Palestine. The campaign needs [people to take this up, especially if TSB customers, with the bank.
www.scottishpsc.org.uk |
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| Red Justice |
Dundee bus to Edinburgh demo
Bus leaves Discovery Point (opposite Rail station) 10.30 a.m. Saturday. Leaves Edinburgh 3 p.m. arrive back in Dundee 4.30 p.m. £10 waged, £6 concession. |
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| Scotland86 |
What is being demonstrated here? if it is the fact that Israel is some how in the wrong and as i have had one person say "commiting international crimes" then you are all nuts. If Wales was to fire rockets into England do you think they would sit and take it? didnt think so, if you play with fire you will get burnt i hope the Israelis batter the living day lights out of them. | ||||||||
| Holebender |
You consider it a fair fight? Israel with the entire US's military power at its disposal against a few peasants with Kalashnikovs and stones? | ||||||||
| azzuri |
You are truly off your rocker... |
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| agentmancuso |
The current action by the Israelis is an absolute disgrace. | ||||||||
| Holebender |
Just their usual behaviour then... | ||||||||
| agentmancuso |
Pretty much, yes. | ||||||||
| agentmancuso |
There's a petition about it here.
I don't know much about the people organising it, except that they had one a couple of years ago protesting about the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. |
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| Holebender |
I love their idea of blockading the Gazans for a while, then letting in aid, then shooting them up when they come out onto the streets for their rations. It's just so evil you almost have to applaud. | ||||||||
| agentmancuso |
Re: demonstration for gaza
I'm surprised at you. Have you decided that killing children isn't an acceptable way of pursuing political ends after all? |
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| Scotland86 |
Im off my rocker? nah wouldnt say so just dont think the palestinians should be left to fire rockets at civies no matter how big or small they are. As i have said England wouldnt sit and allow Wales to fire rockets into the land and kill there people so why should the Israelis?
Anyway you are all going on about how dreadful it is yet Hama themselves have stated they have no intentions of discussing any ceasefire. |
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| Holebender |
England/Wales is an interesting analogy as the present inhabitants of Wales are descended from people who used to live in the whole of south Britain, and the present inhabitants of England are descended from people who took over a lot of that land and evicted many of the earlier inhabitants. When the Anglo-Saxons first started expanding into present-day England and even renamed it, were the earlier inhabitants justified in resenting the newcomers and in defending their territory? When the Anglo-Saxons took more and more by force, were the Celts right to resist? When the situation arose where the Anglo-Saxons had a vast military superiority, were they justified in crushing any resistance from the Celts on their ever expanding borders?
Think about it. |
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| Dave Coull |
Where on earth did you get that rubbish from? True, Hamas are a Muslim fundamentalist organisation, but they did, after all, win a democratic election to form the administration of Gaza, and they have a responsibility to try to protect the people of Gaza, which they were in fact trying to carry out. Hamas were willing, even very eager, for a ceasefire. But they wanted Israel to lift its total seige of Gaza. They wanted mercy mission ships to be allowed through the blockade. They wanted Israel to stop starving the people of Gaza to death. Regardless of what you or I may think of Hamas, it was not unreasonable of them to want Israel to stop preventing humanitarian aid from getting through. And it was not unreasonable of them to want Gaza to be able to trade with the rest of the world. And it was not unreasonable of them to want newspaper, radio, and television reporters to be allowed through to report on what was actually happening there. It was Israel which insisted on its "right" to prevent humanitarian aid from getting through. It was Israel which insisted on its "right" to prevent Gaza from being able to trade with the rest of the world. It was Israel which insisted on its "right" to prevent newspaper, radio, and television reporters from reporting what was happenng. It was Israel which insisted that their total state of siege would continue regardless of whether there was a cease fire or not. In practice, it was Israel which refused a ceasefire. |
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| Rinty |
This is a slaughter, a siege followed by a massacre. | ||||||||
| Scotland86 |
Do you not watch sky news? a Hamas leader said that they would not discuss a ceasefire and they have today called for a day of wrath against the israelis after the death of one of there high ranking generals. So how can anyone call for help for Hamas when them themselves are calling for more attacks against israeli towns. | ||||||||
| Scotland86 |
btw the Hamas leader was himself talking on the news it was not a misquoted report the man himself said this. | ||||||||
| Red Justice |
I don't think the Israelis were willing from the start to negotiate a ceasefire.
The facts are: The conditions for a ceasefire would be different from both Israel and Hamas so agreement was not necessarily likely. Israel ignores the international community about the bombings and humanitarian aid. Israel has lied about military targets and have killed around 100 civilians and 400 people bombing homes, mosques and hospitals. Israel missed killing a member of Hamas but killed four of his family in one bombing raid. The number of children being killed by Israel has increased. Many rockets fired by Hamas have been way off target but the Israelis continue to bomb civilian areas in Gaza causing slaughter of innocent Palestinians. This is an act of aggression by Israel and will not be forgotten by many Arabs. The timing of the Israeli offensive is because of blank cheques being signed by the US lunatic George Bush. This is clearly going to make life difficult for President-elect Obama when he takes office and wants to formulate his own policy on the Middle East. |
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| Scotland86 |
The demands for cease fires always differ on both sides that is why you need to compromise but when both sides refuse to talk about a cease fire point blank there is no point even discussin the matter any further.
Israel has been dropping leaflets from the air telling civilians of there next air sttrike targets so you cannot say they have lied about anything they strike where they see rockets being fired. Hamas fired several rockets from a heavily populated neighbourhoods today so whos fault is it that civvies are being killed? i would say Hamas' as they are the ones firing from schools, mosques and other civilian establishments. Plus using the University as a weapon factory. You ignore the struggle Israel has to keep you do good b******s happy. Hamas DOE NOT want a cease fire neither does Israel so let them fight. As for ignoring the international the community am i meant to give a flying f***? if it was my country i wouldnt listen either i would run it how i felt was best not how other nations told me to. |
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| Dave Coull |
When the Israelis use their high tech weaponry they claim to be aiming at specific targets, but they know perfectly well what they are doing is a slaughter. It was reported in the news that they had killed some prominent member of Hamas. And, oh dear, they had also killed lots of members of his family as well, such a pity. All that stuff about Hamas "using them as human shields" is crap. The fact is, the members of Hamas live at home with their families. Just like everybody else in Gaza does. Just like I do. If you target where people live, then of course you are going to slaughter lots of "innocents".
By the way, not all Israelis support the murderous policies of "their" government. Some brave Israelis do try to stand up to the warfare state. |
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| Scotland86 |
If the Palestinians are so badly done by why does Hamas not stop firing back then the world would have to take notice that the Israelis were firing with no reason. That is because the Israelis are only attacking Gaza because of these rocket attacks and as i said so would i. Why would the Israelis let them out? they have the whole problam inside walls why let them get out to fight them from within? that would be suicide. As long as Hamas refuses a ceasefire and calls for days of wrath then Israel should and will continue to attack. | ||||||||
| Dave Coull |
In the early 1940s, millions of Jews were exterminated in Europe. As well as Germans, those who took part in this holocaust included folk of many other European nationalities. However, none of the guilty were Palestinian. Yet when Europeans and Americans with guilt feelings decided to offer a "homeland" to the Jews, it was the Palestinians who were expected to give up what little they had. Yes, I would say that paying the price for other people's crimes is being hard done by. The reason that so many Palestinians are now crowded into the Gaza strip is because of that original decision by Europeans and Americans, and because they have continued to blindly support Israel in all the crimes that state has committed since.
Because it's against their religion. Turning the other cheek is a Christian idea. Hardly ever put into practice by Christians, mind you, and plenty of practicing Christians had no difficulty with serving Adolf Hitler. (Yes, a small minority of Christians in Nazi Europe did oppose what was being done to the Jews. And yes, a small minority of Israelis are opposing what is being done to the Palestinians.) Nevertheless, while Christians hardly ever practice turning the other cheek, the idea does exist in Christianity. That idea has been used by a tiny minority of Christians, such as Rev Martin Luther King, for instance. But you can't appeal to a sentiment which doesn't even exist. It doesn't exist for Muslim fundamentalists like Hamas. They believe that it is a sin NOT to fight back. They believe that, no matter how hopeless the odds, if they die in battle, then they will go straight to Paradise as martyrs. Therefore it is worth fighting back even if death is a certainty. In Christian belief, suicide is a mortal sin and will send you straight to Hell. By contrast, some Islamic scholars believe that, provided it is a case of a suicidal fighting back against the enemies of Islam, you can go straight to Heaven. And even if you could convince nearly every single person of the million and a half people in the Gaza strip to practice a Christian idea that Christians themselves have hardly ever practiced, there would still be a few who would think it worth becoming martyrs, and these few would be used by Israel as justification for attacking the people of Gaza as a whole.
The Israelis ARE attacking the people of Gaza for no good reason, and, despite the built-in guilt feelings of many Europeans and Americans towards the Jews, the world IS starting to notice that it's the Palestinians who are the victims this time. You and George Dubbya Bush are amongst the tiny minority of the world who haven't noticed this.
The Nazis used the same argument. They first enclosed the Jews inside the walls of ghettoes, and yes, they even managed to find some Jews who would administer these ghettoes on behalf of the Nazis, just as Israel is hoping for a "regime change" which will put more "moderate" Palestinians in charge. The Nazis managed to find some Jews who would administer ghettoes, enforcing Nazi restrictions on the movement of the population, their contact with the outside world, their ability to trade, etc. Then later, of course, they enclosed the "problem" within the walls of concentration camps. The Palestinians are certainly "concentrated" in the Gaza strip, but it's debatable whether it counts as a ghetto or as a concentration camp. What is certain is that slaughter of the population is now happening. To many people, it begins to look like Israel is intent on solving its "Palestinian Problem" in a way similar to how others sought a final solution to the "Jewish Problem". |
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| Scotland86 |
Dave for a start i aint accepting any religious nonsesense as an excuse to lay down there weapons and say there ready to discuss a ceasefire. As for the Israelis firing for no reason, are you blind to the hundreds of rockets pouring out of Gaza? That in itself is reason enough to fire back.
I am sick and tired of do gooders always trying to get there noses involved. The sooner the French numpty has been and did his yapping and goes home the sooner the Israelis can send in the heavy tanks the better. Just run them into the sea that will solve the problam in one swift move. |
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| Scott2006 |
You seem to be very interested in blood Scotland86. Are you thrilled by the prospect of seeing it spilled live on your tv?
The innocent women and children in Gaza are as human as you or I, and deserve to have their human rights respected. Nothing will be gained by the deaths of hundreds or thousands of disposessed people living a hand to mouth existence. Israel will not be safe until the freedoms and standards of living of the peoples surrounding them are raised and over many years peace is worked for. If firing rockets into Israel is wrong, so is sending fighter jets into a crowded strip of land bombing indiscriminately. I believe there is no god or gods and killing for a religion is stupid and senseless. State sponsored murder is a crime and Israel cannot escape they are acting disproportionately. |
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| Dave Coull |
Regardless of whether you accept any religious nonsense or not, it is sheer stupidity to not notice the extent to which the world that you live in is shaped by religious nonsense. Your colleague George Dubbya Bush (I call him your colleague because he is one of the minority of people in the world who, like yourself, supports what Israel is doing) is a Christian fundamentalist. Many European Christians felt guilty about what happened to the Jews in Europe in the 1940s. American Christians had fewer feelings of guilt about this, but Christian fundamentalists in the USA supported the establishment of the state of Israel because, according to their reading of the Book of Revelations, the Return of the Jews to the Holy Land is one of the Signs of the approach of Armageddon and the Second Coming. Quite literally, they supported the establishment of the state of Israel because they thought this would lead to a global war in which most of the Earth's population would be annihilated, and they were in favour of this, because they see this as God's will. Of course, it may not bother you that the (still) President of the USA believes this; and that he might yet choose to leave office with a bang. Historically speaking, Christianity has always been an extremely aggressive religion. You can find that line about turning the other cheek in the New Testament, but you can also find "I come not to bring peace, but a sword", and Christian soldiers have generally been eager in marching as to war. As for the state of Israel, it is a sectarian religious state set up for people of the Jewish religion, and there is nothing at all in the Jewish religion about "turning the other cheek". So why do you demand that Muslims like Hamas do this?
YOU might believe that, but (still) President George Dubbya Bush doesn't, and neither do the large numbers of other Christian fundamentalists in positions of power in the American government and positions of command in the American military. They believe that it will just be one more step on the road to Armaggedon, but a very welcome step towards that final global conflict nevertheless. Of course YOU don't believe that, but no matter. They are in positions of power, and you are not. As far as THEY are concerned, you can go to Hell. |
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| Scotland86 |
As long as Hamas are firing rockets into civilian areas of Israel or any area of Israel for that matter i will continue to support the Israelis in the defence of there people. There is no right and wrong to this just the sheer fact Hamas broke the ceasefire that was in place by firing rockets into Israel. | ||||||||
| Dave Coull |
Well of course you will. You have no choice. It's all fore-ordained, you know. The fact that folk like you will support the Israelis during the End Times is predicted in the Book of Revelations........ |
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| Scotland86 |
Dave you support Hamas so dont start criticising my choice to go against the do gooders.
I mean come on the protests in London for "peace" were full of riots does anyone smell the hypocricy? |
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| Dave Coull |
That is a profoundly illogical thing to say. If, for example, Argentina was to invade Uruguay, I would condemn this. However, it would NOT follow from my condemnation that I therefore support the government of Uruguay. Just for the record, I don't support the government of Uruguay, or Argentina, or Gaza, or Israel, or anywhere else, for that matter. |
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| Red Justice |
The only trouble caused at the London Gaza protest was by the police. They trapped London protesters in an underpass. The media formulate lies. I noticed at Edinburgh the pigs had cameras to film the demonstrators. In the USA protesters have the best idea. Send copwatch squads out to film the police behaviour and have a genuine record of demonstrators engaged in peaceful protest. |
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| Scotland86 |
Red its always the same at these protests. The protestors blame the police. Pictures were all over the news of Pro-Palestine campaigners wrecking blockades throwing missiles (not the type Hamas are firing are innocents) And in the midst of all this there was no sight of an underpass.
Dave it isnt illogical. You support the calls for Israel to pull out and stop and hostilities therefore at this moment you are backing the Hamas cause. |
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| Dave Coull |
All government is, ultimately, based on terrorism, whether historical or current, whether latent or active. This is, of course, as true of the British state as of any other, but this particular discussion isn't about the British state.
At the end of the Second World War, Palestine was ruled by Britain under an international mandate. The founders of the Israeli state were members of an organisation which carried out the killings of members of the British armed forces. For instance, three British army sergeants were captured and then later executed by a terrorist group which included a future prime minister of Israel. Another future prime minister of Israel was involved in the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which killed 91 people and seriously injured 46 more. The Israeli justification for the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was that it was, at the time, used by the British armed forces; but only a minority of the people killed in the attack were in fact British. The rulers of the Israeli state are the inheritors of terrorism and are involved in terror at this present day. The same is, of course, true of the Hamas authorities in Gaza.
"The Hamas cause" includes imposing restrictions on the freedom of women, "the Hamas cause" includes imposing Muslim religious restrictions even on non-Muslims, etc etc etc. Somebody with opinions like mine might run the risk of being jailed or shot if I lived under a Hamas regime. It is, therefore, inaccurate for you to say that I "support Hamas", or "the Hamas cause". What I support is humanity. The reasons for stopping hostilities, AND for Israel ending its long-running siege of Gaza, are humanitarian reasons. Nothing at all to do with backing one particular military/political organisation. |
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| Scotland86 |
Why dont you start calling for Hamas to stop the rocket fire then the Israelis will pull out and if it stops long enough they are more likely to consider lifting the "siege" etc | ||||||||
| Dave Coull |
One of the speakers at an anti-war rally in Glasgow the other day was Barry Levine, speaking on behalf of SCOTTISH JEWS FOR A JUST PEACE. He said "In common with a growing number of Jews in Israel, and internationally, we condemn the airstrikes by Israel on Gaza and the likelihood of a land assault. This level of military action is utterly dis-proportionate and will lead to ever-mounting numbers of civilian casualties".
You are making the false assumption that Hamas has the ABILITY to entirely stop all targeting of Israel. But Hamas are not the only faction in Gaza, and the only way they could try to entirely prevent other factions from firing on Israel would be if they took violent action against those other factions. While Hamas taking violent action against other factions might suit the Israeli government, it would solve nothing. There isn't even any certainty that Hamas would be victorious over other factions. It might even lead to some more extreme grouping than Hamas emerging in control of Gaza. Some attacks on Israel, probably very ineffective attacks but some attacks nevertheless, are pretty certain to continue as long as the siege continues. And Israel will use these ineffective attacks as a pretext for their far more violent and indiscriminate attacks on Gaza. The only way to break the cycle of violence is to lift the siege. As it is Israel which has been besieging Gaza, since long before these rocket attacks started, it is only Israel which can break the cycle of violence, by lifting the siege. |
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| mairead |
Scotland 86.
I am with you on this one. Hamas are first and foremost terrorists, and have been sending rockets into Israel for some time, killing innocents. Israel took enough and then retaliated. Had it been me I'd have retaliated months ago. Surely no one can expect Israel to be bombarded non stop by rockets and just take it? |
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| Dave Coull |
ALL states are first and foremost terrorist organisations. There are no exceptions to this rule. It's just that, for some states, their terrorist origins are a bit further back in history. In the case of Israel, you don't have to go back very far for their terrorist origins. At the end of the Second World War, Palestine was ruled by Britain under an international mandate. The founders of the Israeli state were members of an organisation which carried out the killings of members of the British armed forces. For instance, three British army sergeants were captured and then later executed by a terrorist group which included a future prime minister of Israel. Another future prime minister of Israel was involved in the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which killed 91 people and seriously injured 46 more. The Israeli justification for the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was that it was, at the time, used by the British armed forces; but only a minority of the people killed in the attack were in fact British. The rulers of the Israeli state are the inheritors of terrorism and are involved in terror at this present day. The same is, of course, true of the Hamas authorities in Gaza. But there is no reason for calling Hamas "terrorist" without applying the same description to Israel. However, while there are terrorists in positions of authority on both sides, only one side has the POWER to break the cycle of violence, and that is Israel. It was Israel which started, and has maintained, a siege of Gaza, and it is only Israel which can lift that state of siege, and it is only by lifting that state of siege that there can be any hope of peace. In the early 1940s, millions of Jews were exterminated in Europe. As well as Germans, those who took part in this holocaust included folk of many other European nationalities. However, none of the guilty were Palestinian. Yet when Europeans with guilt feelings, and American fundamentalist Christians fanatically intent on fulfilling the prophecies in the Book of Reelations, secured a decision to offer a "homeland" to the Jews, it was the Palestinians who were expected to give up what little they had. The reason that so many Palestinians are now crowded into the Gaza strip is because of that original decision by Europeans and Americans, and because Europeans and Americans have continued to blindly support Israel in all the crimes that state has committed since. The Nazis first enclosed the Jews inside the walls of ghettoes, and they managed to find some Jews who would administer these ghettoes, just as Israel is hoping for a "regime change" which will put more "moderate" Palestinians in charge in Gaza. The Nazis managed to find some Jews who would enforce Nazi restrictions on the movement of the population, their contact with the outside world, their ability to trade, etc. Then later, of course, they enclosed the "problem" within the walls of concentration camps. The Palestinians are certainly "concentrated" in the Gaza strip, but it's debatable whether it counts as a ghetto or as a concentration camp. What is certain is that slaughter of the population is now happening. To many people, including many Jews here in Scotland and throughout the world, and many Israelis also, it begins to look like Israel is intent on solving its "Palestinian Problem" in a way similar to how some Europeans sought a final solution to the "Jewish Problem". Even in the unlikely event that you could convince nearly every single person of the million and a half people in the Gaza strip to practice a Christian idea of "turning the other cheek" that Christians themselves have never practiced, there would still be a few who would think it right to fight back, and these few would be used by Israel as justification for attacking the people of Gaza as a whole. There is no "military solution" to this problem, short of Armageddon. Mind you, (still) President George Dubbya Bush and other fundamentalist Christians have no problem over contemplating a global Armageddon, after all, the Signs that these are the End Times are all around us, and Armaggedon is right there in the Book of Revelations, so it's God's will. But there is no military solution for anybody who thinks annihilating most of the world's population would be a bad thing. So many sensible Jews throughout the world, and many Israelis, are starting to think they should stop playing the fundamentalist Christians' game. And the first steps in that are to stop the offensive AND to lift the siege of Gaza. |
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| Holebender |
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion, chief architect of the State of Israel.
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” David Ben-Gurion, chief architect of the State of Israel. “We must expel the Arabs and take their places.” David Ben-Gurion, chief architect of the State of Israel. |
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| Scotland86 |
Dave, the US and UK entering Iraq was disproportionate. As is Afghanistan, the US in Vietnam was disproportionate. Almost every war in history will have unfair odds if you look closely enough. The fact is Hamas and the Palestinian people have been firing rockets into Israeli land and killing and injuring there civilians therefore Israel holds the right to fight back to protect there land. If they didnt fight back the world would be screaming that the Israelis are sitting back and allowing the murder of there people.
As for you comments that it may not just be Hamas firing the rockets. My opinion is that if this is the case then yes Hamas should use force to stop it. After all thats why they was elected, everyone shouts about Hamas being democratically elected therefore its there job to do ALL it takes to stop any kind of violence towards Israel in an attempt to seal a ceasefire. Which they are still refusing to be interested in. I would say just leave them to fight it out. The palestinians will soon learn that they cant win and will stop the rockets. |
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| Holebender |
Israel has been blockading Gaza for years, restricting supplies of essentials like medical supplies, food and fuel. By your logic, I presume the Gazans have the right to retaliate over that? | ||||||||
| Rinty |
Hamas were elected as they were seen as the only ones who would fight back, it is ludicrous to suggest that those who voted for Hamas did so expecting them to stop retaliations against Israel.
To pretend that this started with hamas rockets a few weeks ago is ridiculous. When the ceasefire eleapsed after six months Israel had stamped all over the spirit of the ceasefire by their blockade. Its not a matter of Israels response being disproportionate in recent weeks, it is about the systematic opression of palestinians over decades. The very existence of Gaza is testimony to that. 1.5 million people under siege with a neighbouring country controlling all movement in and out of the country, all trade, water, power, medical supplies etc for years, will lead to people fighting back. They will fight back with whatever tools they have. I really cannot believe that there are still people who swallow the israeli propaganda. Israel have nuclear weapons and refuse to allow UN inspectors to look at them, they breach UN resolutions as the feel like it and action is never taken. The palestinians are on their own and dont have the support from the UN that other countries in their situation would normally have. Neighbouring countries have israels nukes pointed at them. Israel are illegally occupying Gaza and the West Bank. they are refusing the right of return for refugees from the 1967 war and before. Whole generations have been raised in the refugee camps in Gaza, Lebanon, and elsewhere. Gaza is one huge refugee camp, and it is under attack from the people who created it in the first place! |
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| Dave Coull |
You really don't have a clue, do you? The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians has been going on, in one form or another, for over sixty years now. During that 60+ years, yes, the Palestinians have lost, time and time again, and yes, some Palestinians have concluded that they can't win. But even in periods when it looked like the majority of Palestinians had reached that conclusion, there was always a minority who disagreed, and who continued to fight back, in one way or another; and Israel would use that as an excuse for attacks on the Palestinians as a whole. Israel still continues to do this. There can be no settlement so long as Israel continues to do this. And that suits some folk in Washington DC just fine. Unlike the Israelis, who would quite like a settlement, as long as it is on their own completely impossible terms, some folk in Washington DC don't want a settlement at all. What the Israelis want is a greater Israel, with security. It's a complete fantasy. A greater Israel, and security, can never go together. But what some of Israel's scarier supporters amongst fundamentalist Christians, in the USA and elsewhere, want, is a global Armaggedon, starting in the Holy Land, because that is what is predicted in the Book of Revelations. They don't mind if this involves nuclear weapons, because the Book of Revelations says that the majority of humanity will perish, but the righteous will survive. They don't really care about Israel as such - they think some Jews will see the light and convert to Christianity, and as for the rest of them, they can go to Hell - they just care about Israel as one of the Signs of the End Time, and as a battleground. Okay, so it may sound crazy, but there are folk in positions of power in Washington DC, and in the US military, who believe this. So far as the Gaza strip is concerned, it is, in a way, one big concentration camp, into which the Israelis have pushed one and a half million Palestinians. There was a democratic election in Gaza, which Hamas won, not because everybody supported their fundamentalist Muslim ideas, but just because the people of Gaza thought Hamas would be more likely to stand up to Israel. If they don't stand up to Israel, then they lose their mandate, and are likely to be replaced. No, not by a more "moderate" faction.
Yes, it was. Also, Blair and co based their actions on a total lie "Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.....we could be under attack in forty five minutes......" Note that neither the United Nations nor any other international body sanctioned the Iraq war. Some of us said from the start that the level of death and destruction in Iraq was likely to be out of all proportion to the problem it was alleged to be dealing with. The problem it was alleged to be dealing with was Iraq's alleged possession of (non-existent) weapons of mass destruction which were supposedly threatening us with death and destruction within forty five minutes. It was a complete LIE by Bush and Blair, no such weapons existed, therefore the level of death and destruction in Iraq HAS been disproportionate. In addition, so far as Bush was concerned, Iraq was supposedly a haven for Al Qaeda and its supporters. That was also a lie. Al Qaeda didn't exist in Iraq. But it does NOW, thanks to the actions of Bush, Blair, and co.
You don't even know what dis-proportionate means, do you? You think "proportionate" would mean having the same number of players on each side, like a football match, or having two boxers of the same weight, bantam-weight or whatever, like in a boxing match, don't you? That's not what it means! So far as international conflicts go, a "proportionate" response means that the level of death and destruction should not be out of all proportion to the "problem" with which it was supposed to be dealing. You cite "almost every war in history", but we're not talking about "almost every war in history". We are talking about what is supposed to happen in more modern times, since the founding of organisations which are supposed to try to keep the peace, since the establishment of international rules and regulations such as the Geneva Convention and others, and since governments throughout the world at least started paying lip service to the idea that any response to a problem/provocation should be "proportionate". Even the Israeli government pays lip service to the idea of "proportionate" response. The Israelis claim that their actions ARE proportionate. So your comment about "every war in history" is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is to discuss whether the Israeli actions are proportionate or not. In regard to that, I suggest you read the responses to you from Rinty, and from Holebender, and try actually THINKING about what is being said, for a change. By the way, before you pull your usual nonsense of suggesting they are the same person, Rinty uses a pseudonym here, but he posts under his own name on other forums, and he has made no great secret of who he is here. He often acts as an official spokesman on behalf of Solidarity. No, Rinty isn't Tommy Sheridan. Solidarity does have other folk who sometimes act as an official spokesperson! So, Rinty is Solidarity, while Holebender, on the other hand, is SNP. |
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| Scotland86 |
I am quite aware of who Rinty is, we have spoke dont you worry your little cotton socks about that.
Anyway im aware that the Israel situation has been on going for many years. That doesnt mean im going to change my mind. And just because i aint changing my views does not mean i havent read what has been said. The Hamas rockets have not only been happening for a couple of weeks they have been a regular part of sounthern Israelis lifes ducking and diving from rockets for as long as some can remember. I have said before and i will say again that i am backing the Israelis on this. I myself would do the same if my people were being terrorised by rocket fire. Back to the proportionate issue, what do you want? Israel to fire as many rockets back into Gaza as is fired out? would that keep you all happy? The reason for the Israeli road blocks is to stop Hamas fighters getting into Israeli communities and causing even more death and suffering. |
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| Rinty |
No the roadblocks were there nefore hamas were in power, the israelis lie about the Fatah being better to deal with but did exactly the ame when Fatah were in charge.
The reason for the roadblcoks is to humiliate the palesitinian people on a daily basis and remind them that they cannot eneter or leave their own country, cannot switch on the lights, go to work, import or export, drink water or get medical treatment, without israels say-so. Its brutal and identical to the warsaw ghetto. |
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| Scotland86 |
Gaza aint a country is it?
We may get somewhere here it would be nice to hear that the Irish roadblocks set up by the British forces were a way to humiliate the Irish people. Back to Israel what would you people that support Gaza on this be saying if Israel opened the border and then Palenstinians started gunning down Israelis in the market, going to school, sitting in hospital. Would you then be calling for Israel to start fighting back to protect its people? |
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| Rinty |
Yes it is!
It is one half of a country called palestine that Isreal wont allow to exist, wont let them have a port, an airport, control their own borders. It should be a country but effectively it isnt because israel wont let it be and the world watches and lets this happen. Israel still occupy the other half on the west bank are are still settling new colonists there daily. |
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| Scotland86 |
according to this Palestine is not a country just as i thought.
http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/palestinenot.htm No need for abuse from anyone its just one of several sites that state that it is not a country. |
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| Rinty |
you post a lionk to some guys opinion as evidence?
The proposed palestine state agreed again and again is held back by israel, recognised by the majority of the worlds nations and, to exist fully, needs israel to folloow the UN resolutions requiring it to tretreat the the pre-1967 norders, stop setllemnets in palestine territory and blockading palestines borders. Israel know that they will never allow this and prefere to repress paelstinians, refugees in their own land. The resultant fightbacks from people fiorced to live as refugess for decades are what israel want to so thaty can use the lame excuse of defending themselves. You obviously have not ead about the subject and you views are shiockingly misinformed. Anyone who thinks that this is about missiles from hamas just hasnt any knowledge on the subject and is forming an opinion from western news reports. I am sorry but you ae struggling here, are displaying your lack of knowledge with every posy and you would be better to stop, start reading unbiased reports and not 'mark rosenberg says palestine doesnt exist' as your evidence. |
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| Scotland86 |
I didnt use it as someones opinion. The fact is he is using "rules" of what makes a country a country and Palestine does not match up to these criteria. As i said its one of several sites.
I dont take all my info from news reports. And how am i showing a lack of knowledge? Just because i dont agree with the majority of readers does not mean i lack knowledge it means i aint willing to be drawn in with the sympathy vote for Palestinians. The fact is they attacked Israel they should be punished. |
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| Scotland86 |
This site shows it as it is, a state not a country.
http://www.infoplease.com/countries.html Any qualms on this one? |
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| Scotland86 |
dont see it here either
http://www.listofcountriesoftheworld.com/ |
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| Dave Coull |
David Green was born in Poland He studied at the University of Warsaw, joined a Marxist group, and was arrested during the Russian Revolution of 1905. Later, he became a Zionist. He moved to Palestine (which was ruled by the Ottoman Turks). He then moved to European Turkey, where he studied at the University of Istanbul for a time. He was expelled by the Turks for his political activities, and moved to New York, where he met an American Jewish woman and got married. Then in 1918, after the Balfour Declaration, he joined the British army. In later years, he would support attacks on the British army.
At some point he changed his name to David Ben Gurion. He became leader of the Zionists, and in 1948 he became the first Leader of the state of Israel. “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel. “We must expel the Arabs and take their places.” David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel.
Then why do you say such stupid things as "The palestinians will soon learn that they cant win"?
I want Israel to lift the siege of Gaza. This would, of course, not be a complete solution, to a problem which has been around for many years now. But at least it would be a step away from the Armageddon that the fundamentalist Christians want. |
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| Scotland86 |
Hold on i was going through looking for Palestine. Thats the trouble of trying to do 5 tasks at once. I will get the correct links when i finish my other tasks | ||||||||
| Scotland86 |
This is pointless one says country the next says not. I give up on the fact of it being a country or not it was a secondary question anyway. I myself dont believe it is i may be wrong. | ||||||||
| Scotland86 |
My question still stands David what would you be saying if Israel "lifted the siege" and Hamas/Palestinian militia then started killing Israelis from within Israel? | ||||||||
| Dave Coull |
Under the Turkish Ottoman Empire, there was a province of Palestine. A British army officer, Lawrence of Arabia, made promises to the Arabs, while other British representatives made completely opposite promises to Zionists. After the war, with Turkey on the losing side, Britain was "mandated" to administer the province of Palestine by the League of Nations. Because of the contradictory promises that had been made, this became increasingly difficult for Britain to do. There was more than one faction amongst the Zionists, but the majority faction (led by David Ben Gurion, later prime minister of Israel) agreed to a smaller faction (led by Menachem Begin, who ALSO later became a prime minister of Israel) planting a bomb in the crowded King David Hotel in Jerusalem which resulted in 91 deaths and 46 serious injuries. As well as targeting the British, of course, the Zionists targeted the Palestinians. David Ben Gurion advocated using "terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services" - these are his own words - against the Palestinian population. He also said “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel.......we have taken their country".
THAT is the background to the present conflict. Not Hamas shooting a few ineffective rockets into Israeli.
Well, like I already said, lifting the siege of Gaza "would, of course, not be a complete solution, to a problem which has been around for many years now. But at least it would be a step away from the Armageddon that the fundamentalist Christians want". It would only be the very first step, and it should, very, very quickly, be followed by other steps. The sheer pace of change is the only guarantee of success. As David Ben Gurion acknowledged, even in his day the Palestinians had extremely good reasons for not trusting the Israelis, and SINCE then Israeli encroachments on Palestinian territory have continued, and are continuing to this day. Ignore the excuses provided for these encroachments. The simple fact of the matter is, so far as many Israeli Zionists are concerned, according to their own testimony, they never had the slightest intention of staying within the original boundaries of Israel, they always wanted a "Greater Israel". Therefore, the only way Israel can prove a willingness to live in peace with the Palestinians is to begin a very swift reversal of all those encroachments. And the sheer pace of that reversal is the only gaurantee of security. Yes, there would probably still be a very few Palestinians for whom even this would not be enough. But they would be isolated. They would grumble, but without support they would feel unable to act. The fact of their isolation would be Israel's gaurantee of security. But only if the siege is lifted, and a swift programme of reversal of encroachments is begun. |
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| Scotland86 |
So what would you be saying if all the swift actions were made etc that you blabber on about then the Palestinians started killing Israelis going to school etc? what would you say then? that Israel is still in the wrong and should move back further give up more land? do it faster? the Paletinians just like the Iraqis will never be happy or grateful and will always find a reason to hate the people that dont believe what they want them to believe. | ||||||||
| Dave Coull |
"Blabber" means "to talk indiscreetly or excessively". So far as "indiscreet" is concerned, it's certainly true that I'm more open about things than some other folk on the internet. For instance, when I was falsely accused by Scotland86 of being the same person as Holebender (!!!), I gave some personal details in refuting this. I happen to think my open-ness is a positive quality. However, I don't see how anything I have said about the Israel/Palestine conflict could possibly be described as "indiscreet". So that only leaves "excessively". While it is certainly true that I have given much fuller justifications for my views than Scotland86, quoting historical references etc where necessary, that is simply being prepared to argue my case, instead of just making unsupported assertions, as Scotland86 does. I defy anybody to point out a sentence in what I have written about Israel/Palestine which didn't add in any way to the argument I was putting forward. And if every sentence added something to the argument, then it couldn't have been "excessive". And if it was neither "indiscreet" nor "excessive", then it couldn't be "blabber". I think I'll ignore the rest of Scotland86's public farting until he learns some manners. |
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| Dave Coull |
From: "Jewish Peace News " <jpn@jewishpeacenews.net>
On protests inside of Israel, with analysis and reports from Rela Mazali, Rebecca Vilkomerson, Gush Shalom and Tom Pessah From Rela Mazali: Israeli news "farteiched und farbessered" To read the English internet version of Haaretz of January 4th, you wouldn't know that some TEN THOUSAND marchers had protested their government's policy and attack on Gaza the night before in Tel Aviv or that earlier that day, MANY TENS OF THOUSANDS (some estimates have quoted 70 to 100 thousand), Jews and Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, marched their protest through the Arab town of Sakhnin in the Galilee. They're not part of the reality constructed by Haaretz's English website. On January 4th, one headline—topping an item picked up from Associated Press read: "Protesters across Europe urge Israel to end attacks on Gaza Strip" with no mention of domestic protests. Haaretz, mind you, is the newspaper often cited as a central example of Israel's relatively critical and truthful media. Though the Hebrew website published items on both the above protests above, Haaretz's report on the Tel Aviv march was headlined: "Hundreds demonstrated throughout the country in protest …". The article actually says that, "thousands participated in a protest march … in Tel Aviv" and that "tens of thousands of demonstraters" protested in Sakhnin (my translation), but the dismissive "hundreds" of the headline might well convince you to skip such insignificant details. Today, one day later, as I'm writing this analysis, the Hebrew website of Haaretz no longer features even this headline; it can only be accessed via the archive and the item itself is only available for purchase. A powerful "die-in" staged on Friday, January 3rd, by about 20 activists, at the entrance to an air force base situated in the posh northern Tel Aviv quarter known as "Tochnit Lamed" (see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpeC7P-2LfU), hasn't been reported on to date by Haaretz in English, though the English version of Ynet carried an item on it (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3649206,00.html). In Monday's print version in Hebrew Haaretz included a "box" briefly reporting on this action, which is absent from both the Hebrew and English websites. This is just a quick and superficial survey of how reality is filtered, "farteiched und farbessered" (abridged and improved, as a Yiddish adapter is reputed to have claimed of his rendering of Shakespeare) by Israeli media, in translation to English. From Rebecca Vilkomerson: The arrest and aftermath of the 19 activists from ANARCHISTS AGAINST THE WALL who did a "die in" at Tel Aviv's air force base, was extraordinary. There is a video of the arrest (in hebrew) and it clearly shows them being ordered to move to the sidewalk, doing so, and then being arrested anyway (see video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpeC7P-2LfU). They were held for an un-precedented three days before being charged, and in the meantime activists' homes have been entered, computers have been taken, and even additional arrests have been made by the police. The Anarchists have been one of the most effective groups working against the Occupation, and my sense is that the state is taking this opportunity to both to try to deter others from civil disobedience as well as try to do damage to the group, under cover of the invasion and less outcry on invasions of civil liberties in a "democracy." It is also important to note that there are reports that numerous Palestinian Israelis havebeen arrested from their homes as well since the invasion began, but there has been no focus (at least in the English or Hebrew press) on these actions whatsoever. *** Gush Shalom report on Saturday night's demonstration: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/1231029668 At the same time as Ehud Barak was ordering the army to start the bloody ground offensive against Gaza, some ten thousand protesters from all over Israel marched in Tel-Aviv in a massive demonstration against the war. All four lanes of Ibn Gvirol St., one of the city's main throughfares, were packed full of demonstrators who marched the two kiolometres from the Rabin Square to the Cinemateque, chanting and waving banners all the way. “One does not build an election campaign over the dead bodies of children!” shouted the protesters in Hebrew rhymes. “Orphans and widows are not election propaganda!”, “Olmert, Livni and Barak war is no game!”’ “All cabinet ministers are war criminals!!” Barak, Barak, don’t worry we shall meet you in The Hague!”, “Enough, enough speak with Hamas!” The written posters were similar. Some of them paraphrased Barak’s election slogans: “Barak is not friendly, he is a murderer!” (The original Barak slogan says: “Barak is not friendly, he is a leader!”) Also: “No to the Election War, 2009!” and “The six-Knesset-seat war!” an allusion to the polls which showed that in the first days of the war Barak’s Labor Party has gained six prospective seats. The demonstration took place after a fight with the police, which tried to prevent or at least limit it, arguing that they would not be able to stop right-wing rioters from attacking it. Among other things, the police demanded that the organizers undertake to prevent the hoisting of Palestinian flags. The organizers petitioned the High Court of Justice, which decided that the Palestinian flag is legal and ordered the police to protect the demonstration from rioters, The demonstration was decided upon by Gush Shalom and 20 other peace organizations, including the Women’s Coalition for Peace, Anarchists Against the Wall, Hadash, the Alternative Information Center and New Profile. Meretz and Peace Now did not participate officially, but many of their members showed up. Some thousand Arab citizens from the north arrived in 20 buses straight from the big demonstration of the Arab public which had taken place in Sakhnin. The organizers themselves were surprised by the large number of protesters. “A week after the start of Lebanon War II, we succeeded in mobilizing only 1000 demonstrators against it. The fact that today there came 10,000 proves that the opposition to the war is much stronger this time. If Barak goes on with his plans, public opinion may completely turn against the war in a few days.” The giant Gush Shalom banner said in Hebrew, Arabic and English: “Stop Killing! Stop the Siege! Stop the occupation!” The slogan of the demonstration called for the end of the blockade and an immediate cease-fire. On the day of the protest, the extreme Right mobilized their forces in order to break up the demonstration by force. The police made a great effort to prevent riots, and the one-mile march from Rabin Square to Cinematheque Square proceeded relatively quietly. However, when the protesters started to disperse, in accordance with the agreement with the police, a large crowd of rightists started to attack them. The police, which till then had been keeping the two camps apart, disappeared from the scene. The rioters then encircled the last of the protesters, harassing them, pushing them about and at a certain point started to besiege the Cinematheque building, where some of the last protesters had found refuge. They tried to break into the building, threatening to “finish off” the protesters, but at the last moment some police arrived and protected the entrance. The rioters stayed around for a long time. *** From Tom Pessah, Israeli activist and JPN reader: (I am writing in English for the benefit of our friends outside Israel, to encourage them to continue speaking out to get the world to respond to this. I assume most of my Israeli friends can follow this). There is a huge number of protests going on around the country. This blog http://mystical-politics.blogspot...monstrations-against-bombing.html mentions some. One of the most impressive was outside a base of the airforce, to remind pilots that they are actually killing people, not just bombing targets. In this protest 21 people were arrested, some of whom have been in jail for several days. A significant development is that parts of the zionist left, such as Meretz and Peace Now, have joined the calls for an immediate halt to the war- http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Sate...ame=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull. Several thousands protested last night in Tel Aviv - http://things.co.il/, and thousands more demonsrated in Sakhnin earlier that day, in what is seen as the biggest protest in the Arab sector for many years. http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=29543 Not enough to stop the land invasion, but public opinion is turning in our direction. The counter-protestors yesterday told us we had no right to an opinon, since we don't live in Sderot. It brought me great satisfaction to tell them of the petition by Sderot civilians against the war (thanks Sarah Anne for posting it on Jewish Peace News -http://jewishpeacenews.blogspot.com/2009/01/some-voices-of-dissent.html). (I resolved not to let anyone silence me, and the next time someone tries to take my place in the queue at a bank or at a store, I will definitely scream "fifth column!!!! go to Gaza!!! traitor!!!!". Also, those who weren't at the rally missed the counter-protestors' inimitable rendering of HaTikvah, the Israeli national anthem, as some kind of soccer song, to which some us responded quite naturally by screaming stuff about the referee's mother. I guess you should have been there) Yesterday I spoke with M., a 20-year old student at the Hebrew university, who is planning a vigil this week in her campus. This is her first semester ever. In Jaffa, Palestinian activists are undergoing serious intimidation, including being woken up at night by the police for trumped up charges, and then released without being accused of anything. In spite of this they are continually protesting: last week they set up a mourning site for the civlians who died in Gaza, on Saturday many of them came to demonstrate in Tel Aviv, and on Tuesday another protest is planned in Jaffa Here are some testimonies - http://www.alternativenews.org/ne...-citizens-of-israel-20090101.html Maybe remember this the next time someone tells you how lucky Arabs are to be citizens of Israel. The police initially said that it would ban Saturday's demonstration if participants were to wave Palestinian flags, and it took a decision by the High Court to allow the protest to happen http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3649253,00.html. This is, of course, the "flag of the enemy", and Palestinian citizens of Israel are expected to proudly wave the Israeli flag with the Star of David, as an expression of their national identity. I am constantly impressed by people's creativity: a party scheduled for Saturday was not cancelled because of the war, but it turned instead into a protest event, with drag kings dressing up as soldiers and parodying the fighting. A group of Jewish and Palestinian poets brought out a collection of anti-war poems (in Hebrew - you can download it here - http://notes.co.il/mati/51225.asp), and organized a reading outside the house of Barak, the Defense Minister, to emphasize his responsibility for the massive killings.http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052047.html - and these are only a few instances that I am aware of, mainly from my area (Tel Aviv). The media is barely covering it, but as a Tel Avivian friend told me, she was hardly aware of the protests against the war until 10000 people passed by her house chanting slogans like (my favorite) - Arabs and Jews refuse to be enemies. Since many Arabs bused into Tel Aviv to be present, this felt especially poignant. Tom Segev wrote in his column this week that "On April 5, 1956, Israel bombed the marketplace in the center of Gaza City. Fifty civilians were killed in that attack, including women and children. Then foreign minister Moshe Sharett thought it was a "savage and stupid" operation. But David Ben-Gurion, the prime minister and defense minister, and Moshe Dayan, the Israel Defense Forces chief of staff, believed the Egyptian president, Gamal Abdel Nasser, sought to destroy Israel and therefore his regime must be toppled, via a defeat in a comprehensive war. Therefore, the ministers followed a policy designed to increase tension and escalation, to the brink of war". This was 52 years ago! http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052024.html whereas this market in Gaza was attacked last week - http://www.facebook.com/people/To...eo.php?v=1037755058264&ref=nf We can either continue to accept this logic, that killing hundreds of people will "teach them a lesson", or we can demand a complete change of policy - a real honest attempt to end the occupation in both Gaza and the West Bank, dismantling settlements instead of building new ones, allowing people access to health care, food, higher education, travel abroad and the right to choose their own government democratically just like everyone else. To all those who say "there is no choice" - why is killing 500 people, very few of whom were engaged in firing rockets, even considered a legitimate choice? where is this leading to? only to the death and wounding of more Palestinian and Israeli soldiers and civilians. Enough is enough. Get up, stand up. ................................................................ -------- Jewish Peace News editors: Joel Beinin Racheli Gai Rela Mazali Sarah Anne Minkin Judith Norman Lincoln Shlensky Rebecca Vilkomerson Alistair Welchman ------------ Jewish Peace News archive and blog: http://jewishpeacenews.blogspot.com ------------ Jewish Peace News sends its news clippings only to subscribers. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or manage your subscription, go to http://www.jewishpeacenews.net |
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| Scotland86 |
I have manners, but i also have my views and you can come up with all the "evidence" you wish you wont change my views and just because i dont agree with you doesnt mean im talking rubbish it simply means we support different sides. | ||||||||
| Rinty |
96 of the worlds countries recognise palestine as a state, of those who dont even some of them, inlcuding the UK and EU recognise the palestine authority and now the Olympic Committe and FiFA recognise Palestine.
I agree with them. If you lived in India or Austria then Palestine is a country, you live in the UK who allow Israel to stop it being a country, then it isnt officially. Most of those who you are siding with in this country would also tell you that Scotland and wales are not countries either. But if you lived in Cyprus, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Pakistan, China, or Russia then Palestine WOULD be a country. Even the Vatican recognise palestine! The whole peace process is supposed to about creating viable states to live alongside each other. But many palestinians want to live in Israel as free citizens, where they come from, not in the hell-hole that is Gaza. |
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| Dave Coull |
Because you find it so difficult to present a coherent argument for what you believe, and, especially, because you find it so difficult to come back with any counter-argument to the points that other people put, you dismiss any extended (but reasonably argued) post from somebody who has no such difficulties as "blabber". That is not good manners.
Let's hope you never get called up for jury service. A juror taking the attitude "you can come up with all the 'evidence' you wish you wont change my views" would be incapable of giving anybody a fair trial, since they would already have made their mind up, on either 'guilty' or 'not guilty', before the start of the trial. I presume, also, that you have no desire to pursue a scientific career when you grow up? No self-respecting scientist could take the attitude "you can come up with all the 'evidence' you wish you wont change my views". However, being realistic about it, I pretty much knew that was likely to be your attitude. The reason for arguing against you is NOT because I expect to be able to convince YOU. It is because other people beside you will read this, and some of them may take a less dogmatic attitude. |
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| Holebender |
So... evidence has no bearing as far as Scotland86 is concerned. This comes as no surprise to me, having already had a dispute with him in which he made it perfectly clear that evidence had no place in his thought processes, but it might possibly surprise a few of our other readers.
I don't know why I'm bothering to ask this question (I do really - it's to expose Scotland86's ignorance and racism) as you've already admitted having a completely closed mind, but I'll ask it anyway; Scotland86, what will you do if Israel backs off and treats Gazans like human beings the the Gazans do not respond by killing Israelis? |
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| Holebender |
Scotland86 has manners alright - bad manners. Just take a look at some of the names he resorts to in his ad hominem attacks on me just because I asked his to support his claims over Christmas traditions. Manners? He wouldn't know manners if they were to slap him in the face. | ||||||||
| Scotland86 |
So now im a racist aswell a ill mannered and ignorant  anything else?
Hole "if" your scenario did happen in which the Israelis gave Hamas everything they wanted and they didnt respond with murder then there wouldnt be anything to do would there? that would bring peace, surely even you know that. Dave - By you wont change my views that aint a generalised statement it is on this subject where i feel strongly that the Israelis are acting entirely within there rights. Also rockets Lebanon? oh dear looks like the Israelis have another issue. Are they allowed to defend themself without any abuse? Or do you want them to sit and take these rockets aswell? |
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| Dave Coull |
06? I think that's a typing error. According to http://imeu.net/news/article0065.shtml about a hundred countries recognise Palestine. That website has a photo of a Palestinian man putting the flags of some of these countries on his boat. He is going to need a much bigger boat to get them all on.
I've been saying here on this forum that the Gaza strip is like one big concentration camp. I saw on the television news last night that a Vatican spokesman has used the very same description for Gaza. There is not a lot of agreement between me and the Vatican, but I'm quite pleased to see that on this occasion they agree with me.
If you have two separate entities, Gaza and the West Bank, with Israel controlling contact between these two, and Israel controlling the contact that they are allowed to have with the rest of the world, that is obviously not a viable country.
An important point. In the northern Israeli town of Jaffa, there's a sizable population of Israeli Arabs. They are Palestinians, or the descendants of Palestinians, who stayed put, despite the "terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services" David Ben Gurion advocated to force them to leave. However, many of them have relatives in Gaza - Palestinians, or the descendants of Palestinians, who left, because of the "terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services" David Ben Gurion advocated to force them to leave. The refugees should be allowed to return home. If that should change Israel from being a sectarian state based entirely on the Jewish religion and race - good. |
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