Dia Daoibh ó Éirinn

Ceilteach · Dia Daoibh ó Éirinn

Conas a tá sibh, is Éireannach mé le han-shuim i mo theanga dúchas agus sna teangacha Ceilteacha ar fad. Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil sibh in ann é seo a thuiscint, tuigim féin Gaeilge na hAlban ach táim beagnach mall ag léamh. Ar aon nós ba mhaith liom cairdeachas agus cuideacht an dá náisiún seo a spreagadh agus a leathnú ach níl a fhios agam go díreach conas é sin a dhéanamh. Cad a cheapann sibhse?

How'r'ye? I'm an Irish lad with a big interest in Irish and the celtic languages. I'm not sure if you understood the above, but I've always wanted to promote co-operation between all Celtic languages, I'm not really fond of this divide that is placed between us all, as if the others don't exist. I'd love, for one, a standard way of writing all Gaelic languages and a collective strategy to promote them all as one rather than dividing our abilities and resources. So, I guess I'm wondering what do you all think of pan-Gaelicism, regarding language? What do you think of Manx and Irish and Welsh, Cornish and Breton? How would you go about encouraging use of all of the above?

Highlander

macnumpty

I think Highlander has a point here: what the Celtic languages need right now is a common, popular movement behind them, encouraging people to learn the language - the 'Cymraeg Byw' works in the 1960s would be a good example: the infuriated the purists but they got people speaking Welsh. A prescriptive 'Academie Française' model (i.e. 'this is how the language should be') isn't the way forward, but there is scope for a common institution working on descriptive analysis (i.e. 'this is how the language is') along the lines of the OED would perhaps help. That institution could also be key in providing resources for teachers and learners: a common model for learning the language might help to provide a shared experience for the Celtic language speech community.

Where co-operation needs to happen right now is on the Applied Linguistics front: working together to compare notes on what works and what doesn't work. Gaelic is not helped by its primary competitor being English, which whether we like it or not is a global prestige language thanks mainly to the US being so prominent in global politics, economics and popular culture. We can't challenge that on our own (it's simply not in our control) so we have to work round it.

Developments in Welsh are the key: with the Welsh language being used as much as it is in government, it is on the way to becoming at least a prestige language in terms of Welsh politics, anyone with ambitions in that field would probably be well advised to at least have a basic understanding. However, there is a downside: the reason Welsh has survived the last 800 years (this also goes for Gaelic) is that it was spoken at the grassroots, by ordinary people. Now, Welsh is in danger of becoming an Establishment language, remote from the people who kept it alive all that time. That could present a danger.

Wales, however, has shown a consistent rise in the number of Welsh speakers (according to the Census), and the use of language has shown an evolution from a Welsh diglossia (two languages being used in different situations, in this case English in high-register/prestige/official communication and Welsh with family and friends) to a Welsh bilingualism (English and Welsh having largely equal status and being used interchangeably). But again, it's not all rosy. Firstly, the 2001 Census moved the goalposts: previous surveys had asked if people DO speak Welsh. In 2001, the Census asked if they CAN. This was always going to show a rise that probably hasn't actually happened.

Also, in that time, the number of 16-35 year olds speaking Welsh has remained steady: this is a problem as this is the typical child-bearing age, and a constant figure here therefore means that there will be no significant change in the number of people speaking Welsh in a home with young children who are learning their first language. That means that the increase in Welsh being spoken is an increase a second language. Second language speakers are more likely to learn and reproduce the language out of textbooks, whereas first language speakers tend to take the it forward, allowing it to evolve and change. That's what is needed.

Basically, for me the next steps need to be:

1. A common descriptive linguistic body, that can monitor how the languages are spoken.

2. For that body to produce textbooks for each of the languages based on its findings, keeping the languages separate, but creating a shared experience for Gaelic learners.

3. A common applied linguistic body (a spin of from the descriptive one) monitoring langiage policy initiatives, producing its own ideas, and trying to implement them.

4. That body focussing on increasing the rate of 16-35 year olds speaking Gaelic.

Cymro

I ahgree with whats alreafy been said.

There is no way you should try and alter languyages. Yes Irish, Gaelic and Manx derive from the old Goedelic Celtic language and a long ,long time ago would of been the same, and in the same respect Welsh, Cornish and Breton come from the Brythonic family of languages.

Yes we have simmilarities, and these are interesting to be seen, but the differences are there for a reason. Not for political purporses but because of the nature of the languages - for a long time they wouldn't have been written languages so therefore relied on people talking to each other.

In Welsh, and its the same with the other Celtic languages we have different dialects of Welsh, and going from area to area you can hear completely different words for ceretain things. I watched a programme a while ago on BBC 2 Scotland about the demise of the Sutherland Gaelic language. It was sad to see the demise of such a dialect as these things are a sign of the strength of the language and should be defended as much as the language itself.

Its quite easy to resurect a language with the right politica will, but to resurrect a dialect is next to impossoble.

So Ceilteach by all means be interested in the languages and their simmilarities but also celelbrate their differences. Any attempts to standardise the Irish and the Gaelic will only lead to a further deterioration in the languages - and lets face it both are struggling. Ireland is a gfood example of Language Laws and rights not being the only answer to a languages problems.

garye

I agree with most of whats already been said. Trying to foist a standardisation on top of them would be a major (and I mean major) setback. I think though that there are good strands of work going on, I know Sabhal Mor Ostaig have helped with Manx development and I've got a CD Rom with Gaidhlig, Gaeilge and Manx on it. So I think it's about sharing experience rather than trying to standardise.

Failte dhan bhord a' Cheilteaich. Tha mi an dochas gum bidh cordach riubh!

Highlander

I have also looked it up and Gaelic and Irish are ony just mutually intelligible when written, spoken they are not. Well that is what an encyclopedia tells me anyway. So to try and foister some kind of notion that they are all the same is like telling a Swede they are speaking Norwegian.

garye

Cymro

Its the same kind of think garye with the Welsh in relation to the Cornish and Breton languages. Certain words are very simmilar and my father was able to strike up a conversation with a person from Brittany where they spoke Breton and he spoke Welsh - it was far from a fluent conversation but it was possible.

There are some sticking simmilarities i.e. in Wales there is a town called Llangollen, in Brittany they have a town called Langolen, and another random one I know is that Fisherman in Welsh is Pysgotwr and in Cornish its Pysgodwr. There are numerous other examples of this, and also some involving the Brythonic family of languages and the Goedelic family of languages.

Ceilteach

Well, people here seem to have no experience of the Gaelic in Ireland and I have only limited experience of the Gaelic in Scotland, but from what I read, it's all very understandable. And after all, Manx Gaelic is classified as a dialect of Scots Gaelic. Written Irish now has been standardised from the way it was written before, which was different depending what dialect you were reading and who was writing. Scots Gael looks more or less like the way Irish used to be written. I'm not saying they're all the same, but if we had a common written form (only written by the way, no one wants to make 3 languages 1), it might help in co-operation. Also, I'd love to hear Scots Gael on the Irish Gaelic media more, to hear what it actually sounds like instead of having to read it the whole time.

As to mutual understanding, there is virtually no contact between the languages so it's hard to tell, but I've heard that the Ulster dialect when spoken is intelligible with Scots Gael and it gets harder to understand the further south you go. Keep in mind though that Ulster Irish and Munster Irish (the two dialects to the north and south) are unintelligible to each other. And there was an old East Ulster Irish, unfortunately now dead which was said to be a dialect of Scots Gael rather than Irish Gael.

As for 'oíche mhaith'(used to be spelt 'oichdhe mhaith') and 'oichdhe mhath'. The Irish counterpart depends on what dialect you use, it could come out 'ee-ha wah' 'ee v-eye' 'ee-chah wah'. Standard Irish Gaelic would use the first one.

Cymro

"Manx Gaelic is classified as a dialect of Scots Gaelic"

Says who?

I believe that there should be more co-operation between all the Celtic languages in order to share good and bad practice. But not inorder to try and standardise them across borders etc.

Its all well standardising them within a country for reasons of writting - i.e. for public bodies displaying signs it makes sense that they are written in a particular way. But that is where it should end, we should enjoy the fac that they do indeed have simmilarities but also differ from area to area (both within countries and acorss various countries).

Also and maybe I'm reading this the wrong way, but what do you mean Ceilteach when you ask this?:

"What do you think of Manx and Irish and Welsh, Cornish and Breton? How would you go about encouraging use of all of the above?"

Are you expecting people to have bad opinions of these languages? I'd suggest we get more people to use all of them by promoting the languages so they are seen as being key to anyone visiting Wales, Cornwall, Scotland, Ireland, or the Isle fo Mann.

Abieuan

There would also be some disadvantages if there was a standard written form for all three Gaelic languages in that many people in Mannin and Alba choose to learn the language precisely because it is unique to their own country, if it was a standard Gaelic it would have less appeal.

However, new words enter our languages often, perhaps here is an opportunity for us to draw together, an agreed spelling between the three countries.
It would probably not fit the spelling pattern of any of the languages, but would not go against the historical spelling as there would be none other than the standard form.

Such an agreement would be mutualy benificial to us all.

I would propose the same for Cymraeg, Kernewek, and Brezhoneg.