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True Scotsman

Dublin Protest

There has been there has been a lot of protest going on in Dublin about the Love Ulster March.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0225/loyalist.html
SLG

Here's some pictures:

http://www.creativeireland.com/forum/ubb/Forum7/HTML/008122.html
parkhead_rfb

first of all it should be noted that o'connel street was already under major construction so that is why those pics look so bad.

i found it dissapointing the way in which many reacted to the march for me the best way would have been to ignore and mock those taking part as their website shows that they are more to be pitied than scorned. apparently human rights lawyer pat finucane who was murdered in collusion with the british state was a leading member of the ira, no evidence offered just on a we say so basis you understand.
Aventinian

I hope this calls into question the popular myth that there is no sectarianism/racism in Southern Ireland. The government would rather sweep it under the carpet than acknowledge it.
parkhead_rfb

it was not sectarianism it was a protest against a sectarian organisation, if blacks riot against the kkk march does that make them racist or anti racist?

i do not agree with the protests but to label them sectarian is lazy stereotyping.
azzuri

To be fair - this was Republicans who bussed (is that a verb?) into Dublin from the North who caused the trouble - not the Dubliners themselves. People in Dublin couldn't really care and looked on in bemusement more than anything else. You'd be hard pushed outside the Dáil to find any Dubliners who care enough about this to enough complain, never mind riot.

Those in the South are far more worried about grown-up issues such as huge immigration numbers than the tribal rioting.

I can't wait until these people from Northern Ireland start travelling outside its' borders regularly and realise that most people really don't care either way.

Northern Ireland exporting its' troubles to other countries...........never. Smile
parkhead_rfb

i disagree rs the british exported troubles to ireland, if we were closer to iraq, palestine etc we would also see the consequences of british actions played out in scotlands streets the way we do in many ways with the irish situation.

but where is your evidence that they were bussed down? provisional sinn fein, who are by far the largest republican movement, did not support any form of protest. Republican Sinn Fein a much smaller organisation did and their southern branches were involved in organising a protest, i am not aware of them busing folk down and if they did there would hardly be large numbers coming from the six counties given the size of the organisation.

also you should be aware that sinn feins vote share has risen dramatically in the 26 counties in recent times so i think that it belies the facts for you to say that people in the south are not interested in events in the north as well as both other major parties in the south claiming to be republican.
azzuri

I'm not talking about those willing to vote for unification.

I'm talking about those willing to riot. Few and far between in Dublin.
RBK

I see some were shifting the blame already...


Orange march sparks Dublin riots

Henry McDonald, Ireland editor in Dublin
Sunday February 26, 2006
The Observer

Firstly it wasn't Orange. Secondly there was no march. But as usual,in the end, unionists will get the blame. Confused Its par for the course Sad Smile
Rinty

j

Quote:
To be fair - this was Republicans who bussed (is that a verb?) into Dublin from the North who caused the trouble


To be even fairer it was more than just republicans who were bussed in from the North.

Quote:
Firstly it wasn't Orange. Secondly there was no march. But as usual,in the end, unionists will get the blame.


Well it was the march that sparked the trouble, amd it was in association with the Orange Instititution according the the Love Ulster website. thats not the same as blaming the organisers of the march or those marching.

I would however blame Love Ulster for the trouble and I firmly belive that sectarian division and trouble was their motivation for the march.

Here's the speech their leader made at the Shankill rally. I like the veiled threat of war followed by the declaration that they love peace.

http://www.loveulster.com/news/keynotespeech.html
SLG

Have the Orange Order not also made threats to 'take up arms' here when Scotland becomes Independent?
azzuri

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74528

Quote:
Virtually all of the analysis that I have read about the Dublin riots in the short time since they happened has completely missed the point. Most commentators have focused on the apparent own-goal that the riots represent to Republicanism and the way that they have played into the hands of unionists. I don't think this is accurate at all.........

In terms of the affects on southern politics, it is important to realise that the riots had almost nothing to do with republicanism. RSF are a fringe group with virtually no support and if any of them took part in the riots they were in an insignificant minority. The riots were an expression of the anger of the most marginalised sector of Dublin's urban poor, they had no real political point other than an expression of that rage. While those who are suspicious of Sinn Fein will use the riots as another weapon against them, they had zero involvement whatsoever. Their outright condemnation of the riots might even alienate some of their more disenfranchised support base and drive them towards the dissidents, but I doubt that this is likely to happen on any great scale.

All of the political groupings in the south bar some of the republican fringes and the anarchists will condemn these riots in the harshest terms. Indeed within hours, the state’s politicians were queuing up to express their outrage and ‘anger’ at the events. But what is the point of reacting to anger with anger? What use is anger against people who don’t give a f___ and who don’t have anything to lose? There is a French anarchist saying that goes “Qui sème la misère récolte la colère“ – “he who sows misery, harvests anger”. On Saturday February 25th 2006, we saw the first harvest of our Celtic Tiger and chances are that it won’t be the last.
parkhead_rfb

rs_azzuri wrote:
I'm not talking about those willing to vote for unification.

I'm talking about those willing to riot. Few and far between in Dublin.


where is your evidence they were bussed in though? i certainly havent heard of this on any great scale.
parkhead_rfb

SLG wrote:
Have the Orange Order not also made threats to 'take up arms' here when Scotland becomes Independent?


yes they have, but then for a religious organisation most of the members i know havent picked up a bible in god knows how long so we will need to wait and see on that one.
RBK

It seems unfair to use Orange all the time,when the O.O. is not involved. It would be the same as calling a Nationalist/Republican riot.....a Hibernian riot.

'Hibernian March sparks riot' This is what goes out all the time and the O.O.is lumbered with it. Even though they nothing to do with it.

Its an easy and convenient way to label a whole people and an organisation.

I seen a wee article in the paper that touches on this. I'll see if I can find it.
parkhead_rfb

were orange order bands not taking part? or was it loyalist bands?
RBK

They are loyalist bands. Very very few bands I would say that are connected to the O.O. They are all free agents who are hired by the O.O. and paid a fee. Much as you would hire a band for a wedding 'do' .

There may be the odd one out in the country who are connected with a lodge. I don't know. But none at all in Belfast.
Morph

If the bands are highered is that not worse because they are adding to the problem for money not for belief, you can excuse a man for his belief if he cant help it but not just for money
RBK

[quote="Morph"]If the bands are highered is that not worse because they are adding to the problem for money not for belief, you can excuse a man for his belief if he cant help it but not just for money[/quote

Just the way it works in Ulster. I think it is different in Scotland and England.
parkhead_rfb

no its the same in scotland.
parkhead_rfb

Un-FAIR face of Love Ulster

One of the Love Ulster campaign organisers praises old South African system

Ciarán Barnes

04/03/2006

“Under apartheid, the black man was better paid, they
had better jobs,
better everything.”

“I couldn’t care less if people call me
a racist. I couldn’t care less what they think. Apartheid meant the black man was better treated and respected."

The Opinions of Jim Dixon

One of the organisers of the Love Ulster campaign can be exposed today as a racist.
In an interview with Daily Ireland, Jim Dixon praised apartheid, called for an end to immigration into Ireland, and insisted on “other races having their own schools, hospitals and buses”.
In 2001, Mr Dixon stood as an independent unionist candidate in the Fermanagh and South Tyrone constituency, in an election that was eventually won by Sinn Féin’s Michelle Gildernew.
The Democratic Unionist Party withdrew from the poll to give Mr Dixon a better chance of victory. In the 1998 Stormont elections, Mr Dixon stood for Robert McCartney’s UK Unionist Party, narrowly missing out on winning an assembly seat.
Mr Dixon is chairman of the Ely victims’ group, which is based in Enniskillen, Co Fermanagh. He was severely injured in the IRA’s 1987 Remembrance Day bombing in the market town.
Daily Ireland learned recently that Mr Dixon had been made honorary life president of the ultra-right-wing Northern Ireland Springbok Club.
The organisation wants to see the return of “civilised white rule” to the African continent.
Representatives of the Springbok Club distributed thousands of leaflets at the Love Ulster rally on west Belfast’s Shankill Road last October. Mr Dixon led the rally, which was supported by both the DUP and the Ulster Unionists.
Speaking to Daily Ireland yesterday about his role in the Springbok Club, Mr Dixon extolled the virtues of apartheid.
“Apartheid is what blacks want. It’s the same as in Northern Ireland. Catholics don’t want a united Ireland like blacks didn’t want a new South Africa. Both groups prefer to stay as they were,” he said.
“I’ll be travelling to South Africa in two weeks. I’ve travelled there extensively in the past. The black man wants segregated schools. The black man hates the white man. I can support apartheid without being a racist.
“I am not trying to do down the black man. He should have his own space to do his own things.”
Mr Dixon told Daily Ireland that black people had benefited under apartheid rule in South Africa.
“Under apartheid, the black man was better paid, they had better jobs, better everything. He was treated better than anywhere else in the world. Under apartheid, the white and black man got on well.
“Learn the history of South Africa. The black man didn’t live there. He doesn’t belong to South Africa. The country was originally inhabited by the Bushman. Blacks came to South Africa to find jobs.”
Mr Dixon also blasted immigration laws in Ireland and Britain.
“It’s wrong that blacks are coming to Northern Ireland,” he said.
“I couldn’t care less if people call me a racist. I couldn’t care less what they think. Apartheid meant the black man was better treated and respected.
“Immigration is a recipe for trouble. It shouldn’t happen anywhere. Each to their own. Other races should have their own schools, hospitals and buses.”
Mr Dixon’s racist views caused fury in his home county of Fermanagh. Local SDLP assembly member Tommy Gallagher said the public would be shocked.
“We have people of other races living in Fermanagh and they are made welcome by the vast majority of people,” said Mr Gallagher. “Some have been the victims of racism, and Mr Dixon’s remarks will only encourage those responsible for disgusting racial abuse. Under new legislation, Mr Dixon’s comments can viewed as inciting hate crime.”
Sinn Féin equality spokeswoman Caitríona Ruane also condemned Mr Dixon’s comments.
“They are outrageous, racist and completely unacceptable,” she said.
RBK

One thing it has shown is that Ulster is a tolerant place compared to the R.O.I. Sein Fein can walk through the centre of Belfast [and has done] but Loyalists cannot walk through the centre of Dublin. Speaks volumes.
azzuri

RBK wrote:
One thing it has shown is that Ulster is a tolerant place compared to the R.O.I. Sein Fein can walk through the centre of Belfast [and has done] but Loyalists cannot walk through the centre of Dublin. Speaks volumes.


Yes of course you'd believe that because it fits your agenda perfectly.

Look at the bigger picture for once. Rolling Eyes
RBK

Not a matter of fitting an agenda. It is a fact.....simple as that.
SLG

RBK wrote:
One thing it has shown is that Ulster is a tolerant place compared to the R.O.I. Sein Fein can walk through the centre of Belfast [and has done] but Loyalists cannot walk through the centre of Dublin. Speaks volumes.

Were most of the protesters not down from the north as well?

Also, do the Sinn Fein marchers in Belfast not mainly come from NI? That is very different from Orangemen marching in a city that is, IYO, in another country. Is it not expected that such a city would be less tolerant of foreigners marching.
RBK

SLG wrote:
RBK wrote:
One thing it has shown is that Ulster is a tolerant place compared to the R.O.I. Sein Fein can walk through the centre of Belfast [and has done] but Loyalists cannot walk through the centre of Dublin. Speaks volumes.

Were most of the protesters not down from the north as well?

Also, do the Sinn Fein marchers in Belfast not mainly come from NI? That is very different from Orangemen marching in a city that is, IYO, in another country. Is it not expected that such a city would be less tolerant of foreigners marching.


This has been claimed by some people, including I think the Love Ulster people,but Sinn Fein has denied this to be the case.

I would say yes most of them would be from Ulster. But in the light that Dublin and the R.O.I. look at the island as one. It doesn't seem fair that they can't accomodate a fairly small protest,
in what they would call their capital.

It amuses/amazes me that republicans never get tired of telling us,[and who ever else will listen] that the orange in the Tricolour is there to represent the Protestant ethos culture and tradition. Yet their hatred is always on show when people of that tradition try, to hold any sort of a parade.

I think they should 'take it down from the mast' or at least take the orange out of it.......and stop living a lie.
Aventinian

Not to mention that most Protestants probably don't want to be associated with the connotations of the colour orange - it certainly doesn't represent them.
RBK

Aventinian wrote:
Not to mention that most Protestants probably don't want to be associated with the connotations of the colour orange - it certainly doesn't represent them.


Good point....but it was republicans who put it in the flag and the colour they used was orange. So THEY must have thought it did.

I think in view of present day republicans attitude/behaviour towards that colour, its about time it was taken out of the flag offically. Some tricolours have a gold bar in them. Maybe they should drop the pretence and use the gold version instead. Their fooling nobody...except maybe themselves.
the bard of keppoch

did anyone note how jim dixon stated ' learn the history of south africa,the blackman did'nt live there,he does'nt belong to south africa,the country was originaly inhabited by the bushmen,Blacks went to south africa to find jobs ' is this not double standards by this man to suit his own agenda, rbk im interested in what you make of his opinions please
RBK

the bard of keppoch wrote:
did anyone note how jim dixon stated ' learn the history of south africa,the blackman did'nt live there,he does'nt belong to south africa,the country was originaly inhabited by the bushmen,Blacks went to south africa to find jobs ' is this not double standards by this man to suit his own agenda, rbk im interested in what you make of his opinions please



Bard,Not to sure about all that stuff, Its a wee bit out of my territory. We've enough here to contend with without getting bogged down in that.

I did hear or read somewhere many years ago something along those lines. But as far as I can remember it was the Hottentots, or something like that who inhabited the area now known as South Africa. But they were black people as far as I know. I don't know what he's saying/implying when he mentions bushmen.
parkhead_rfb

aye lets ignore his comments eh rbk Rolling Eyes
Leathlaobhair

RBK wrote:
One thing it has shown is that Ulster is a tolerant place compared to the R.O.I. Sein Fein can walk through the centre of Belfast [and has done] but Loyalists cannot walk through the centre of Dublin. Speaks volumes.


oh you joker you.
RBK

Leathlaobhair wrote:
RBK wrote:
One thing it has shown is that Ulster is a tolerant place compared to the R.O.I. Sein Fein can walk through the centre of Belfast [and has done] but Loyalists cannot walk through the centre of Dublin. Speaks volumes.


oh you joker you.



But True.

Derision Is The Refuge Of Threatened Ignorance.
Leathlaobhair

RBK wrote:
Leathlaobhair wrote:
RBK wrote:
One thing it has shown is that Ulster is a tolerant place compared to the R.O.I. Sein Fein can walk through the centre of Belfast [and has done] but Loyalists cannot walk through the centre of Dublin. Speaks volumes.


oh you joker you.



But True.

Derision Is The Refuge Of Threatened Ignorance.


I am not going to teach you the history of Northern Ireland. Ask Mullah Paisley if you can read a book and maybe you'll learn a bit of it.
RBK

Leathlaobhair wrote:
RBK wrote:
Leathlaobhair wrote:
RBK wrote:
One thing it has shown is that Ulster is a tolerant place compared to the R.O.I. Sein Fein can walk through the centre of Belfast [and has done] but Loyalists cannot walk through the centre of Dublin. Speaks volumes.


oh you joker you.



But True.

Derision Is The Refuge Of Threatened Ignorance.


I am not going to teach you the history of Northern Ireland. Ask Mullah Paisley if you can read a book and maybe you'll learn a bit of it.



This is the second time on this site I've been told I haven't any knowledge I don't read any books. I find this line amusing...very amusing Laughing
parkhead_rfb

well you did post an "academic" report that may as well have been written with a crayon then looked on smugly as if it actually proved anything.
RBK

parkhead_rfb wrote:
well you did post an "academic" report that may as well have been written with a crayon then looked on smugly as if it actually proved anything.



Derision Is The Refuge Of Threatened Ignorance Wink Very Happy
Cymro

My sister was in Dublin that weekend for the Wales Ireland match. She was saying some lads walked in and showed the group of girls she was with a video footage filmed on one of their mobile phones of the fighting.

My mum was all panicy about my sister being near the riot but the people in Temple Bar where completely unaware of anything else appart from rugby and Guinness.
RBK

Thats the way it should be. To be honest the media focus's a lot on the negative side of things.

At Drumcree the O.O. go down to the barrier at Christmas and gather round,have a religious service and sing carols. But there's not a T.V. camera in sight.

Bet if there was another riot at the barrier. The T.V. crews would be there in their hundreds. Rolling Eyes
parkhead_rfb

the orange order shold inform some of there bretheren in scotland that it is actually a religious organisation, many of them dont seem to know as they dont attend church Confused

the derision of that report is well justified in my opinion, if i handed in a piece like that in my course i would expect to fail.
Leathlaobhair

RBK wrote:
parkhead_rfb wrote:
well you did post an "academic" report that may as well have been written with a crayon then looked on smugly as if it actually proved anything.



Derision Is The Refuge Of Threatened Ignorance Wink Very Happy


I'm sorry you can do nothing but spout the same parable and then go back to sucking your thumb, convincing yourself that nothing possibly could be wrong about unionism...

RBK wrote:

At Drumcree the O.O. go down to the barrier at Christmas and gather round,have a religious service and sing carols. But there's not a T.V. camera in sight.

Bet if there was another riot at the barrier. The T.V. crews would be there in their hundreds.


I honestly could care less what the O.O. does if they're not hurting people, although that is pretty amazing when it isn't happening. They can parade down Unionist neighbourhoods all they want as far as I'm concerned, it's only when they try to provoke Catholics I have something to say.

And of course that's when the media cares, the media only cares about things that make people think about their own safety. You only would ever see something like that on a slow news day, unfortunately
Aventinian

Leathlaobhair wrote:
I'm sorry you can do nothing but spout the same parable and then go back to sucking your thumb, convincing yourself that nothing possibly could be wrong about unionism...


There is literally nothing wrong with Unionism. That is not to say I agree with the actions of every British Government since 1707...

Quote:


I honestly could care less what the O.O. does if they're not hurting people, although that is pretty amazing when it isn't happening. They can parade down Unionist neighbourhoods all they want as far as I'm concerned, it's only when they try to provoke Catholics I have something to say.


I don't think anyone has a right to say who can and cannot walk down a public street.
azzuri

........an organised parade is a little different from just walking down a street Aventinian.

Over here some 'parades' are designed to deliberately antagonise the communities and towns/villages they march through.

Some parades are held in towns/villages where the population is exclusively (really - almost 100%) Catholic. The people that participate in said parades are bussed in from 30-40 miles away.

This is petty and is designed to create divisions - it is because of these idiots that the parades commission was set up - and rightly so.
RBK

The Hibernians walked past the last Unionist estate left on the west bank of the Foyle. No one annoyed them they proceeded on their way unmolested. The way things should be.

Many of the contenious areas,are areas that once were Unionist,but are no longer so. This is were the trouble usually occurs. These processions have walked in these areas for decades and decades. The Unionist population had to get out in the end,so the lesson is learned.

Gerry Adams himself has said that these 'Concerned Residents' groups just didn't happened. They were organised, to oppose any Unionist parade which still insisted in walking through areas where they once had lived.

Gerard Rice didn't even live on the Ormeau Road. But travelled from the other side of Belfast to the Ormeau Road in order to be 'offended' There was even talk of him going to Canada to view the 12th parade there and be 'offended' Laughing

But its very interesting the way on this thread the spotlight has been turned on to Orange parades. While it started of about the riots in Dublin.

Irish Republicans are very good at that manoeuvre. I have to hand it to them. There's no doubt they are brillant at it. Unionists are hopeless,they haven't a clue.
parkhead_rfb

the unionist population had to get out? nothing to do with the increase in the nationalist population due to its substantially higher birth rate then? Also you will no doubt have missed that fact that in derry city they have managed to reach agreement with nationalists there regarding marches despite the city being a majority nationalist city. The ancient order of hibernians are also a joke organisation and i dont know one sin gle person in ireland who is a member, the vast vast majority of republicans treat them with as much contempt as they do with the orange order. Surelly as a church organisation the oo should be doing a smuch to promote peace as possible rather than organising contentious marches, oh and remember the scenes of triumphalism when the garvaghy road march was allowed to pass? if those escaped your attention you may want to look into the five gestures which were being amde by members of the orange order during a procession past a nationalist area in belfast where 5 nationlaists were murdered in a sean graeme bookmakers.
RBK

parkhead_rfb wrote:
the unionist population had to get out? nothing to do with the increase in the nationalist population due to its substantially higher birth rate then? Also you will no doubt have missed that fact that in derry city they have managed to reach agreement with nationalists there regarding marches despite the city being a majority nationalist city. The ancient order of hibernians are also a joke organisation and i dont know one sin gle person in ireland who is a member, the vast vast majority of republicans treat them with as much contempt as they do with the orange order. Surelly as a church organisation the oo should be doing a smuch to promote peace as possible rather than organising contentious marches, oh and remember the scenes of triumphalism when the garvaghy road march was allowed to pass? if those escaped your attention you may want to look into the five gestures which were being amde by members of the orange order during a procession past a nationalist area in belfast where 5 nationlaists were murdered in a sean graeme bookmakers.


Did Nationalists/Republicans not jeer and spit at the body of a British soldier who threw himself over a bomb in order to save Nationalist civilians who were in the police station.

Remember too the chant. ''our thirteen were not forgotten we got eighteen plus Mountbatten''

Come off it...those on the Unionist side have'nt got a monoply on such things.

Republicans/Nationalists can gloat like ghouls too.
parkhead_rfb

RBK wrote:
parkhead_rfb wrote:
the unionist population had to get out? nothing to do with the increase in the nationalist population due to its substantially higher birth rate then? Also you will no doubt have missed that fact that in derry city they have managed to reach agreement with nationalists there regarding marches despite the city being a majority nationalist city. The ancient order of hibernians are also a joke organisation and i dont know one sin gle person in ireland who is a member, the vast vast majority of republicans treat them with as much contempt as they do with the orange order. Surelly as a church organisation the oo should be doing a smuch to promote peace as possible rather than organising contentious marches, oh and remember the scenes of triumphalism when the garvaghy road march was allowed to pass? if those escaped your attention you may want to look into the five gestures which were being amde by members of the orange order during a procession past a nationalist area in belfast where 5 nationlaists were murdered in a sean graeme bookmakers.


Did Nationalists/Republicans not jeer and spit at the body of a British soldier who threw himself over a bomb in order to save Nationalist civilians who were in the police station.

you have lost me with that one, what incident was this?

Remember too the chant. ''our thirteen were not forgotten we got eighteen plus Mountbatten''

i have not heard anyone shout that chant nor have i ever seen any record of it can you provide real evidence of it?

Come off it...those on the Unionist side have'nt got a monoply on such things.

Republicans/Nationalists can gloat like ghouls too.
Aventinian

rs_azzuri wrote:
........an organised parade is a little different from just walking down a street Aventinian.


Not in any real sense. It's still people using their right to use a public street.

Quote:

Over here some 'parades' are designed to deliberately antagonise the communities and towns/villages they march through.


In a democratic society you have no right not to be offended. I don't like the number of socialists that march about the centre of Glasgow, but I'd defend their right to do it.

The people who complain are usually as bad as the antagonists themselves - just spoutingt the same tribal nonsense over and over. Wasn't it the Garvachy Road (excuse the spelling) "Residents' Committee" that actually had no members who had houses actually facing onto the proposed marching route...

As I say, same old tribal idiots on both sides just seeking a way to one-up each other.

Quote:
This is petty and is designed to create divisions - it is because of these idiots that the parades commission was set up - and rightly so.


Responding to pettiness with not only pettiness, but oppression, will solve nothing.
the bard of keppoch

aventinian lets here suggestions on how you would return the North into a better and safer place for people to live
Rinty

m

Quote:
Gerry Adams himself has said that these 'Concerned Residents' groups just didn't happened. They were organised, to oppose any Unionist parade which still insisted in walking through areas where they once had lived.


But surely RBK an orange parade is not a "unionist" march. The Orange Order is a religious organisation whereas unionism is a political opinion on how best to govern Northern Ireland/the UK.

Quote:
But its very interesting the way on this thread the spotlight has been turned on to Orange parades. While it started of about the riots in Dublin.


The thread seemlessly moved onto the subject of contentious marches/parades as that was the subject matter. The pivotal turn in the thread was the question of the Orange Order and Love Ulsters involvement in the Dublin march. You should scroll back, its no mystery and a natural path for the thread to take.

Quote:
Irish Republicans are very good at that manoeuvre. I have to hand it to them. There's no doubt they are brillant at it.


Devious, scheming, untrustworthy race of people eh?
Aventinian

the bard of keppoch wrote:
aventinian lets here suggestions on how you would return the North into a better and safer place for people to live


Pretty much the same way I'd do it for every other part of the world - government at its most efficient level, co-operation across borders, individual liberty, small government, effective policing.
RBK

Re: m

Rinty wrote:
Quote:
Gerry Adams himself has said that these 'Concerned Residents' groups just didn't happened. They were organised, to oppose any Unionist parade which still insisted in walking through areas where they once had lived.


But surely RBK an orange parade is not a "unionist" march. The Orange Order is a religious organisation whereas unionism is a political opinion on how best to govern Northern Ireland/the UK.

Quote:
But its very interesting the way on this thread the spotlight has been turned on to Orange parades. While it started of about the riots in Dublin.


The thread seemlessly moved onto the subject of contentious marches/parades as that was the subject matter. The pivotal turn in the thread was the question of the Orange Order and Love Ulsters involvement in the Dublin march. You should scroll back, its no mystery and a natural path for the thread to take.

Quote:
Irish Republicans are very good at that manoeuvre. I have to hand it to them. There's no doubt they are brillant at it.


Devious, scheming, untrustworthy race of people eh?


Regarding the Unionist bit Rinty I take your point. Unionist doesnt mean Orange and vice-versa. Its only that in the cauldron that is Ulster, its hard sometimes to pick a word that somebody is not gonna take exception to. Iv'e already been 'pulled' for using the dreaded P********* word. There are that many permutations in this place[Ulster] of a description for a group of people.....its like walking on egg-shells sometimes. I'm well aware that some R.C. people would be unionist and some P. people would be nationalists. I think we all agree on that and if a term is used about a group I [speaking for myself] am usually referring to majority's within that group. As I said on this site too....its like walking on egg-shells.

I agree too about the thread. I have to admit that threads have a habit of doing that......going off the starting point. I have been guilty of it myself.

Devious is to strong a word maybe. But I do think that, shall we say they are more astute than... whatever word we are allowed to use[this is crazy]

Maybe its the Scots in the Ulster-Scots but it does seem in temperment we are a different people. More 'up front' if you like. If there are two sets of bigots in Ulster....then ours is the more noticeable variety. Sad

We make a rod for our own back. But I guess its just the way we are. Rolling Eyes
parkhead_rfb

i remember looking at the orange orders official website at the time and it carried pro unionist and anti sinn fein material, the organisation most definetely has political links, they even hire loyalist bands.
azzuri

Aventinian wrote:


Pretty much the same way I'd do it for every other part of the world - government at its most efficient level, co-operation across borders, individual liberty, small government, effective policing.


I nearly choked on my coffee there. 'Co-operation across borders'- that's been tried for decades now and if anything has only had a negative effect. Whether it's the British or Irish government involved - someone is not happy. When both are involved it seems to leave everyone unhappy - I've yet to hear anyone over here who comes out in serious support of the Belfast Agreement.

The best thing is to leave Northern Ireland to it - they are on the right track but it will take time as with anything else. Saying that, Globalisation is probably the best thing that could happen over here.

Increased immigration and travel will help speed up the process no end.
Rinty

g

Quote:
I've yet to hear anyone over here who comes out in serious support of the Belfast Agreement.


The majority of people voted for it yet the government decided in it's wisdom not to implement it. If the GFA had ever been carried out I would accept the criticism of it. But without a devolved parliament the GFA had no chance of succeeding. The whole thing got sidetracked on issues that were not part of the agreement, now we have the IMO, again not a part of the agreement, dictating the shots rather than the elected representatives of the people in their own parliament.
parkhead_rfb

exactly rinty, the gfa states that all parties involved should so all they can to ensure that violence comes to an end it doesnt mention decommsissioning of the pira as a prerequisite to the assembly being in place. events such as the bank robbery have also been used as a stick to beat republicans depsite their being no convictions of pira members, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty it seems that it has been replaced once again with innocent until proven irish.

unionists use these things only as a way to stall the peace process as many of them will never accept power sharing with nationalists, in 1973 the Ulster Unionist Council voted to share power with nationalists by a majority of only ten, over three hundred who voted were against it from the outset, this issue was then sidetracked by the anger unionists had with the council of Ireland agreed during the Sunningdale agreement.

men like paisley will need to learn that things arent going back to the days when they had uncontested dominance and they will have to share power with nationalists, its time the british government stood up to a man who wasnt so against paramilitaries that he was ashamed to work with them during the Ulster Workers council strike which ended the sunningdale agreement.
Aventinian

rs_azzuri wrote:
I nearly choked on my coffee there. 'Co-operation across borders'- that's been tried for decades now and if anything has only had a negative effect. Whether it's the British or Irish government involved - someone is not happy. When both are involved it seems to leave everyone unhappy - I've yet to hear anyone over here who comes out in serious support of the Belfast Agreement.


You're taking a very restricted viewpoint. I've yet to hear one complaint about the Council of the Isles being in existence. Equally, the EU has overarched politics in both the UK and Ireland for a long time. That is the sort of co-operation I'm talking about, not muddled meddling in the affairs of another.

The Belfast Agreement was and is flawed. It was an incredibly unworkable solution to a far more complex problem.

Rinty wrote:
Quote:
I've yet to hear anyone over here who comes out in serious support of the Belfast Agreement.


The majority of people voted for it yet the government decided in it's wisdom not to implement it. If the GFA had ever been carried out I would accept the criticism of it. But without a devolved parliament the GFA had no chance of succeeding. The whole thing got sidetracked on issues that were not part of the agreement, now we have the IMO, again not a part of the agreement, dictating the shots rather than the elected representatives of the people in their own parliament.


The Agreement required the support of all the parties involved. The government couldn't realistically continue the process - or devolution - given the circumstances without returning to a non-power sharing model.

parkhead_rfb wrote:
exactly rinty, the gfa states that all parties involved should so all they can to ensure that violence comes to an end it doesnt mention decommsissioning of the pira as a prerequisite to the assembly being in place.


I think that easily falls under the heading of 'doing all one can to end violence.' - and evidently the DUP agreed. It is unacceptable for a party in government to have its own private army. Indeed, I don't think they should even be able to get on a ballot paper. It's ridiculous - a bit like having a Mafia Party.
Rinty

h

Quote:
The Agreement required the support of all the parties involved. The government couldn't realistically continue the process - or devolution - given the circumstances without returning to a non-power sharing model.


the agreement did have the support of all the parties involved yet fell on matters related to parties no involved in the agreement and at the nehest of the UK govt. If they took away the Scottish parliament for the same reasons I would have been outraged. What you are suggesting is that the majority of voters will can simply be overtruned and a return to a non-power sharing executive should be implemenred despite the will of the people.

Quote:
I think that easily falls under the heading of 'doing all one can to end violence.' - and evidently the DUP agreed. It is unacceptable for a party in government to have its own private army. Indeed, I don't think they should even be able to get on a ballot paper. It's ridiculous - a bit like having a Mafia Party.


The parties all signed the pledge to do "all they can" against a background of troop withdrawal and a devolved, power-sharing assembly. Chicken and egg theories only can say whether one end of the agreement would or would not have worked in isolation. BUT the people of NI voted for the implementation of the Belfast Agreement, the fact is they were denied this.
parkhead_rfb

the ira have effectively announced that they will stand down and thats before even getting to the fact that sinn fein do not control the ira despite what the mass media and unionists try to claim.
RBK

I take it then if an all-ireland came about. That unionists as of right would have a say in goverment. No matter their showing at the polls.

Its called power-sharing.
True Scotsman

Looks like things are starting to get back to normal in Dublin.

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