Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites.
 

What's new? The latest myff announcements

       Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Forum Index -> History
Hazel

Edinburg

First, I must ask if there is a history section here. That is where I should be with my questions but I do not find one.

Now, I am asking for another education.

1. What is the Scots Gaelic name for Edinburg?

2. Can someone please tell me how Edinburg came to that name?

Thank you. Hazel
SLG

No history section here. Might be a good idea though.

1. It's Edinburgh in english, Embra in Scots and Dùn Èideann in Gàidhlig.

2. It's originally a Welsh name, I'll see if I can find a link. Or Abieuan migth know...
Hazel

Edinburg

SLG wrote:
No history section here. Might be a good idea though.

1. It's Edinburgh in english, Embra in Scots and Dùn Èideann in Gàidhlig.

2. It's originally a Welsh name, I'll see if I can find a link. Or Abieuan migth know...


Tapadh leat. Thank you. Hazel
Maol.Chaluim

1. "Embra" is certainly a coloquial or slang word for Edinburgh, but I doubt it's Scots. See (2).

2. Don't know about the "Edin" part (I've read that it might have something to do with a Northumbrian king, and also that it has Brythonic Celtic origins), but the "burgh" part is a Scots word for a unit of local government:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgh
Hazel

Edinburg

Maol.Chaluim wrote:
1. "Embra" is certainly a coloquial or slang word for Edinburgh, but I doubt it's Scots. See (2).

2. Don't know about the "Edin" part (I've read that it might have something to do with a Northumbrian king, and also that it has Brythonic Celtic origins), but the "burgh" part is a Scots word for a unit of local government:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgh


Thank you. I'll follow up on the Northumbrian king. I was reminded earlier that it was originally Welsh. It was not called Welsh back then but.... This all started when I noticed that Caerdydd (Cardiff) and Caeredin (Edinburg) was spelled so similarly.

Caer, in Welsh, can mean citadel, wall, fort or castle. We surely get wide choices, don't we? Hazel
Abieuan

The link that Maol.Chaluim provided agrees with what i thought, that Edinburgh is not named after Edwin of Northumbria.
It had been a thriving city for centuaries before him.

Caeredin seems to be the modern Welsh name, in all the quotes from ancient documents that i have seen it is always called Din Eidyn.

There are placenames in southern Scotland begining with Car, most of these will come from Caer.
Edinburgh, however, was larger - it was the capitol of the Kingdom of Lothian.
I wonder if Din is an older form of Dinas - the modern Welsh word for city?
Hazel

Edinburg

Abieuan wrote:
The link that Maol.Chaluim provided agrees with what i thought, that Edinburgh is not named after Edwin of Northumbria.
It had been a thriving city for centuaries before him.

Caeredin seems to be the modern Welsh name, in all the quotes from ancient documents that i have seen it is always called Din Eidyn.

There are placenames in southern Scotland begining with Car, most of these will come from Caer.
Edinburgh, however, was larger - it was the capitol of the Kingdom of Lothian.
I wonder if Din is an older form of Dinas - the modern Welsh word for city?


I was wondering that about Din and Dinas also. I know somebody whom I can ask tomorrow. Meanwhile, thanks to all of you for education. Doesn't Edinburg go back to the time of Yr Gododdin, that long Welsh poem? Hazel
azzuri

still missing that h at the end..........EdinburgH
Hazel

EdinburgH

rs_azzuri wrote:
still missing that h at the end..........EdinburgH


Oops Embarassed Hazel
SLG

Maol.Chaluim wrote:
1. "Embra" is certainly a coloquial or slang word for Edinburgh, but I doubt it's Scots. See (2).

2. Don't know about the "Edin" part (I've read that it might have something to do with a Northumbrian king, and also that it has Brythonic Celtic origins), but the "burgh" part is a Scots word for a unit of local government:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgh

That depends what you mean by Scots. I would say it is definitely Modern Scots.

The Scots dictionary here (www.dsl.ac.uk) gives Embro as Edinburgh. With references dating back to Burns in 1798. The also mention Embra, but with more recent references. Another online Scots dictionary (www.scots-online.org) here gives Embro and Auld Reekie. It seems to be a contraction of Edinburgh to Enburgh and Emburgh to Embro.

I have the Welsh (or Brythonic) being Din Eidyn, and predating the Northumbrians, so ruling out anything to do with King Edwin. Eiddyn seems to come from a personal name. I think din was the same as the Gaelic dùn meaning fort.

There is a really interesting website Ancient Lothian (www.cyberscotia.com/ancient-lothian/) that goes into some of this. You can also read a translation of Y Gododdin.
azzuri

Re: EdinburgH

Hazel wrote:
rs_azzuri wrote:
still missing that h at the end..........EdinburgH


Oops Embarassed Hazel


Don't worry about it Hazel.

Just wondering how you pronounce it given your spelling?
Abieuan

Thanks for that link, SLG,
The Gaels/Picts named it as they saw it; Dùn Aodainn - the fortress on the brow of the hill.
This is the translation given in several books, but is only the Gaelic name, not it's original meaning.
It is interesting how the modern Gaelic name is much closer to Eidyn.
Hazel

Re: EdinburgH

rs_azzuri wrote:
Hazel wrote:
rs_azzuri wrote:
still missing that h at the end..........EdinburgH


Oops Embarassed Hazel


Don't worry about it Hazel.

Just wondering how you pronounce it given your spelling?


How I pronounce it? I suppose I'd have to say that the 'h' is silent on my tongue. Considering that I cannot master "ch", must I master 'gh'? Does it really have a different pronunciation? Please!!!!

By the way, as long as we are on that subject, can anyone here tell me if the Scots Gaelic 'ch' is pronounced the same as the Welsh 'ch'? I had a friend who said no but he did not actually speak either language. He spoke German and said the Scots Gaelic 'ch' was the same as that in German. He did not feel the Welsh 'ch' was the same.


Hazel
Abieuan

Quote:
must I master 'gh'? Does it really have a different pronunciation?
It is pronunced "u", Edinburu.
Burgh is not a Scottish or Celtic word, it came with the invaders.

The Scottish ch is the same as the Welsh, but not pronounced as strongly - usually.
It may be similar to the German, isn't that odd that the Angles/Saxons came from Germany but have lost their own tongue and still call the language English?
Hazel

Edinburg

Abieuan wrote:
Quote:
must I master 'gh'? Does it really have a different pronunciation?
It is pronunced "u", Edinburu.
Burgh is not a Scottish or Celtic word, it came with the invaders.

The Scottish ch is the same as the Welsh, but not pronounced as strongly - usually.
It may be similar to the German, isn't that odd that the Angles/Saxons came from Germany but have lost their own tongue and still call the language English?


Edinburu? That would be similar to our towns which end in 'ough'. I cannot think of one right now but we do have them. It would be as thoug Edinburg were spelled "Edinborough" or "Edinboro". Interesting.

The strength of the 'ch' is probably what my friend was referring to then. Thank you.

Languages and their development makes an interesting study. Did you know that, at one time, there were two distinct languages in England called English? One came with the invading Anglo-Saxons; the other with the invading Danes or, some say, the Danish Vikings.

Then, there is King James VI & I with the "polite English".

I'd best stop before I write an epistle. Oidhchc mhath. (Is that right?) Hazel
Chookie

Close, but no coconut..........

You should have typed Oidhche mhath
Hazel

Oidhche

Chookie wrote:
Close, but no coconut..........

You should have typed Oidhche mhath


Thank you. I thought my penmanship was awry. I should type instead of writing.

Hazel
Abieuan

Quote:
there were two distinct languages in England called English? One came with the invading Anglo-Saxons

The Angles and Saxons had different dialects too.

The Scots language of the lowlands is derived from Nothumbrian English, spoken by the Angles.
After the English kingdoms were united, and the centre of power established in the south of England, the Northumbrian dialect began to decline in northern England, but not Scotland where the Scots dialect was still the language of royalty and of the court.
Blackleaf

Quote:
It's originally a Welsh name

The word "burgh" comes from the Saxon word for "town."
SLG

Blackleaf wrote:
Quote:
It's originally a Welsh name

The word "burgh" comes from the Saxon word for "town."

Well spotted Blackleaf. Quite sensible really when you consider that 'Edinburgh' is the Anglo-Saxon translation of the original. Just as 'Dùn Eideann' is the Scots Gaelic translation.
Aventinian

Re: Edinburg

Hazel wrote:
Edinburu? That would be similar to our towns which end in 'ough'. I cannot think of one right now but we do have them. It would be as thoug Edinburg were spelled "Edinborough" or "Edinboro". Interesting. l


Exactly. 'Burgh' is just a Scottish spelling of Borough and has the same meaning... and the same (or very, very close) pronounciation.
Blackadder

Din Eiddyn was the name of the Fort on the Rock. It was P-Celtic (or Brythonic) as is spoken by the Welsh of today. Welsh or Wales was Saxon for "foreigner" ... not a word I would use. Therefore British is more correct.
Traprain Law for instance is Dun Peldyr, in Brit = Fort of the Spear ... and Arthurs Seat is Ard-na Seghe (Height of the Arrow) or Ard-na Sidhe (Height of the Little People).
It is thought Eiddyn was a personal name and was a grandfather of Cunedda, who moved to found Gwynedd in North Wales. Eiddyn may have been an appointee of the Romans in the 4th Century, as was the king of Dun Breattain (Dumbarton) on the Clyde.
Later pronunciation with a little racial mixing with Scots and Angles changed this to Dun Edin ... then Dunedin. When Edwin of Northumbria (c 616) got control and gave the market-town his patronage, it became known (allegedly) as Edwin's burgh.
My own theory is that it was the evolving Scots language gave it the final name through linguistic corruption ... Dun Edin was on a rock with a long tail of a hill down to what is now Canongate. This hill was called a brae ... and in language useage of the time ... it would have been Dun Edin's brae .... and through successive centuries finalising as Edinburgh around 1050 when it became the capital of the last Celtic King, Malcolm Canmore.
Blackadder

*sighs* You really have to spell it out for some people, don't you?

The linguistic changes that took place would ensure Dunedin's Brae became Edin's Brae, then Edinbrae, from which it was Anglified to Edinburgh ... Edwin really had nothing to do with it ... and that can be seen in today's modern Scots vernacular of "Embrae" (in Glasgow anyway). How this will develop in the future can be extrapolated by listening to how people speak. Always has been throughout history, regardless of the Anglicisation, gentrification and standardisation that went on to create The Mither Tongue.

As to the Scots themselves, I am evolving a theory that they were invited (not invaders) by the ailing British Damnonii of the Clyde valley and the Romans, to set up a new kingdom at DalnRiata, which would be a buffer state against the Pictish depradations, as was Guotoddin (Gododdin-Lothian) and Areclut (The Clyde).
These lands were also called Venedotia by the 2nd century Romans ... later known as the "lost province" when they retreated behind Hadrian's Wall, abandoning the Antonine frontier. Eventually the Scots would intermarry with the Brits, Angles and Picts to form Scotland, with its King in the person of the son of Alpin of the Scots ... Caioneach (Kenneth I) MacAlpin.
Pragmatic Pict

Blackleaf wrote:
Quote:
It's originally a Welsh name

The word "burgh" comes from the Saxon word for "town."


That is what the English called it. It does not mean they first founded it.
The Brythonic Celts did (as far as we know) calling it Din Eidyn a hill top fort settlement where
Edinburgh Castle is now.
I don't really care if it was founded by the Apache as long as the truth is out. It may have been founded originally by the Picts who knows! Rolling Eyes
Blackadder

Edinburgh is NOT a "Welsh" name ... modern "Welsh" has developed over centuries from a version of Celtic speech called P-Brythonic, which was shared in Cornwall and Brittany in historic times. The Iris and Scots variant is Q-Brythonic, hence Welsh/British MAP compared to Scotto-Irish MAC.

The Picti inhabited the lands from the Forth-Clyde valley to the North lands ... until the advent of the Scots and their first kingdom at DalnRiata.

While no-one can deny that Din Eiddyn is a British name ... it is highly probable that the Castle Rock has had a settlement on it since well before the Celtic Heroic Age ... as did Arthurs Seat with its several settlemants perched above the farming riggs. Who knows who was the first ... cvertainly not the Picts, though the bottom line is that so little is known, that most Pictophiles need to make huge leaps and prodigious interpretations of the "facts" to state their views. The explanations migrate to this core of "facts" in a futile effort to explain this mysterious people.
Pragmatic Pict

Blackadder wrote:
Edinburgh is NOT a "Welsh" name ... modern "Welsh" has developed over centuries from a version of Celtic speech called P-Brythonic, which was shared in Cornwall and Brittany in historic times. The Iris and Scots variant is Q-Brythonic, hence Welsh/British MAP compared to Scotto-Irish MAC.

The Picti inhabited the lands from the Forth-Clyde valley to the North lands ... until the advent of the Scots and their first kingdom at DalnRiata.

While no-one can deny that Din Eiddyn is a British name ... it is highly probable that the Castle Rock has had a settlement on it since well before the Celtic Heroic Age ... as did Arthurs Seat with its several settlemants perched above the farming riggs. Who knows who was the first ... cvertainly not the Picts, though the bottom line is that so little is known, that most Pictophiles need to make huge leaps and prodigious interpretations of the "facts" to state their views. The explanations migrate to this core of "facts" in a futile effort to explain this mysterious people.


Blackadder you are missing the main points.

It was not founded by the English but the burgh part of the English name is Saxon/Anglo-Saxon and the edin is a likely corruption of the previous name.(The English have been known to corrupt a lot of non english names e.g Aberchwiler has become Aberwheeler)

I agree the earliest known name is not welsh (as that has evolved (although similar) but from the (pre welsh) brythonic language(s).

And lastly my post was not assuming it was pictish just literating the fact that no one is 100% sure who first founded a settlement there.

I dinnae know why you are arguing against us. All I want to know is as much truth as possible. If you proved 100% it was say founded by tribe x I 'll only agree.

P.S So little is known about the picts 'painted ones' it may have been a collective name for many tribes or one. I am not sure and open to discussion but according to a book 'Celtic Britain' the author John Rees from his own work and other sources feels the picts (believed to be non-aryan) may have once been all over the British isles and were pushed back into the territory north of the clyde by the 'Celtic cultures'.
Also the welsh for Britain is Prydain which roughly translates to lands of the picts and may have been called that by the Brythons who came across these people livin' across Britain.
I know this is a very dodgy subject due to so little evidence so I am happy to be proven wrong Embarassed
Blackadder

Prydain was the much later "Welsh" as in The Mabinogion. It was derived from the Greek Pretanoi ... which the Romans changed (as most invaders do) the name to Brittaniarum. Prydain or Prettyn is the "P" Celtic version of "Cruthainn" and it is almost certain the Cruithne WERE the Picts of legend. The Sons of Cruithne were probably never a very large tribe, though before the coming of the Celts (around 500bce) they were spread very thinly all over Clas Myrrdin ... another poetic name for Britain.

Not arguing against you ... just trying to point you in a better direction.

J'ai un PHD dans l'histoire, se spécialisant dans l'histoire antique.
Pragmatic Pict

Blackadder wrote:
Prydain was the much later "Welsh" as in The Mabinogion. It was derived from the Greek Pretanoi ... which the Romans changed (as most invaders do) the name to Brittaniarum. Prydain or Prettyn is the "P" Celtic version of "Cruthainn" and it is almost certain the Cruithne WERE the Picts of legend. The Sons of Cruithne were probably never a very large tribe, though before the coming of the Celts (around 500bce) they were spread very thinly all over Clas Myrrdin ... another poetic name for Britain.

Not arguing against you ... just trying to point you in a better direction.

J'ai un PHD dans l'histoire, se spécialisant dans l'histoire antique.


Thankyou dear Blackadder. I would be interested in what books find this information or if you have done any PHD research on this subject.
As someone with a PHD on ancient history do you come across new theories on ancient British history as I am always interested in that area of history.
Blackadder

There's as many theories as there were tribesmen!!! And they're still coming out of the woodwork. I have formulated my own and a colleague and I are putting together a book on Dark Age Britain. Been at it 3 years now ... another 2 and we'll be ready to go I think. There are just so many "unknowns" and you get so many others muddying the waters.

I could suggest a hundred books, but Alcock still lays down the real spadework. Cunliffe, in recent years, has written some good general books on pre-Roman Britain. Chadwick is still the outstanding name on the Celtic kingdoms ... and there are so many authors in the last 10 yrs brought out Arthurian books.

Your best bet is to google and then check out Amazon. I was lucky to get a book two years ago from the States (out of print now). The British Library is also the best repository.

It's also important to have a sense of humour in Ancient studies because the ancient writers certainly weren't above pulling future readers' legs!

I specialise in Ancient History in a general, but into Brit Hist at the moment, while trying to unravel the Pict problem.

I believe Baldrick is a throwback ... to the missing link!
Pragmatic Pict

Cheers
Blackadder

Let's finally put to rest this "myth" of Edin"burgh" and say it is not and never was a Celtic word. "Burgh" is Anglo-Saxon. It became attached to the Capital because of patronage by Edwin of Northumbria, who "conquered" the Lothians, and the word "burgh" denotes a market-town of good size.

However, we can throw Norse into the mix as well, possibly as early as 4th century. The Vikings were certainly trading tentatively during the Roman period and it is believed several of them were in Scotland centuries before their more famous (and violent) counterparts in the 8th, 9th and 10th centuries

The word "brae" seems to be a hybridisation of words with similar meaning or intent, denoting a long slope. Similarities exist between British, Scots, Norse AND Saxon ... The origin of the word is not so easily defined ... nor can it be ignored as the origin of the "burgh", hijacked by Edwin, the Northumbrian King for his own purposes.

I believe this shows some level of intermixing between the racial groups. Southern Scotland, between 350 and 550 was a thriving territory with so much happening, it carried over into the archaeology. It's all tainted. So much so that when Edwin turns up (c.586-633) his is more like a corporate takeover.
Firefox

EXACTLY!

But isn't that the point? It shows a Scotland, intermixed with other cultures and yet, still, Independent! The mixed entymology shows or links with the outside world (whatever they may be at that point).

Our own history shows that. Look at the wars of Independence, or events like Prestonpans... We exist in a world and we make of it what we will in history with what events and processes we have at that point.

We don't forget our own history (good or bad) but our future depends upon the political events of NOW! (Independence First / the SNP / The Unionists / Picts / Angles / Athelstaneford / etc / etc / etc)
Blackadder

In the 5th to the 8th Century ... Scotland was not Scotland ... therefore your point of Independence is badly made. The whole damn island was a patchwork of small kingdoms vying for power.

You lost your argument before you started it!
Pragmatic Pict

I suppose you can say every country is a creation in a way, so really any argument for a country being independent could be disputed.
BUT if the majority of people want independence for a particular 'realm' who has the right to argue?
Blackadder

Argue?? Not me ... Discuss ... yes, absolutely.
Pragmatic Pict

Blackadder wrote:
Argue?? Not me ... Discuss ... yes, absolutely.

Absolutely me too.
Blackadder

PP wrote;
Quote:
BUT if the majority of people want independence for a particular 'realm' who has the right to argue?


The ones with more sense I presume! Very Happy
mairead

Edinburg

Dun means hill so the word Gaelic spelling of Edinburgh, Dun Eideann would, I guess, mean hill fort of the town. Just a guess mind you. The Eideann part probably devolved into Edin and as per the above
post, burgh from the Saxon word meaning town gives us Edinburgh .
Blackadder

*sighs

As explained elsewhere, Eiddyn was a personal name. It did NOT devolve ... it Evolved ... into Edin ... that's what language does ... it evolves NOT devolves ...

And Dun or Din meant "fortified-place on a hill" or "Hill-fort". Therefore, Dun or Din Eiddyn was Eiddyn's hill-fort.

Scroll back on this thread where we discuss this in full.

The Anglo-Saxon "burgh" is still open to question.
mairead

Edinburg

I yield to your obvious superior intelligence and cringe at my crass stupidity m'lord Blackadder.
My own aristocratic upbringing appears to be much less worthy than yours therefore I won't insist that you address me as Milady.
Blackadder

Well you got that right!!! Very Happy Very Happy
mairead

Edinburg

Well thank the Lord I got something right, but now that I am not altogether stupid I've changed my mind, you should now address me as Milady.
Blackadder

I will ... on the day a purple aeroplane drops on my head and all the passengers shout "OUCH" in large letters!
RadgeJougal

Blackadder wrote:
Let's finally put to rest this "myth" of Edin"burgh" and say it is not and never was a Celtic word. "Burgh" is Anglo-Saxon. It became attached to the Capital because of patronage by Edwin of Northumbria, who "conquered" the Lothians, and the word "burgh" denotes a market-town of good size.


It isn't Edwin's burgh as sometimes claimed. It was Symeon of Durham who put that myth about. "Burgh" is Teutonic, "Edin" here isn't.
Blackadder

No'one said "Edin" was, Radge.

According to Wikipedia on Symeon;
Quote:
his chief merit is that of a diligent collector and copyist.


Perhaps he just copied a lot from someone else, then interpolating his own words where he could.

Nowadays, that's called Plagiarism! Laughing
RadgeJougal

Okay, fair enough...
Blackleaf

Firefox wrote:
EXACTLY!

But isn't that the point? It shows a Scotland, intermixed with other cultures and yet, still, Independent! The mixed entymology shows or links with the outside world (whatever they may be at that point).


It's not really links to the outside world.

The Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria, which has since become an English county when all of them unified to form England, once extended into what is now Scotland and the area where Edinburgh now is.

Blackleaf

It was at first called Din Eidyn (Fort of Eidyn) from the time when it was a Gododdin hillfort.

It was then invaded by the Bernicians (Bernicia was an Anglo-Saxon kingdom) who then name changed the name to the Anglo-Saxon "Edin-burh", which some have argued derives from the Anglo-Saxon for "Edwin's fort", possibly derived from the 7th century king Edwin of Northumbria.

However, since the name apparently predates King Edwin, this is highly unlikely. The burgh element means "fortress" or "group of buildings" in Anglo-Saxon, i.e. a town or city and is akin to the German burg, Latin parcus, Greek pyrgos etc. The "Edin" probably just comes from the "Eidyn."

So it originally had a Brythonic name but now has an Anglo-Saxon one.
Cymro

Interesting debate. The word Din / Dun does though mean City in the Old Welsh and it's Brythonic predater language. However, city does not mean the same thing as it does now - basically a city in this sense was a place which was fortified. My home town Rhuthun means City (Fort) on Red Rocks, the town is built on red sand stone. Rhuth meaning Red adn the Un has derived from Dun/Din.

Dinas is the Welsh word for city which shows the link still clearly exists.

I heard many places around Scotland had names which where Old Welsh - Perth (perth is a word for piece of land), Strathclyde - Ystrad Clyd, Glasglow - Glasgoed, Dumbarton - Din Brython, and possibly Aberdeen (the word Aber in Wales is commonly found and means Mouth of River).

Don't know how true it is though.
Corby Boy

Welsh and Gaelic have similar words meaning the same thing.

       Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Forum Index -> History
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum