g-20 protesters (not the maryhiil ones)

twistednbent · g-20 protesters (not the maryhiil ones)

i hope these neds,thugs and thieves caising bovver down in london are punished to the full extent of the law.scumbags to a man.allthats missing is the sheel suits, the burberry cap and the bucky.

Rinty

I agree, all of the police officers who have attacked innocent protesters and who have deliberately stoked uop trouble should be prosecuted. Take away the riot gear and uniforms and they would be arrested for that sort of behaviour on any street in any town.

twistednbent

there are horrible reports of a man collapsing in the street last night in whitehall, as police tried to save this man they were attacked by these g20 protesters.the police were unable to do their job and the man died.

shame on these scumbags.

Holebender

Interestingly I have seen a report that two policemen have been suspended for allegedly beating the man so severely that he later died. Who are the scumbags?

Rinty

Yes.

The report I read said the man was unconscious and had stopped breathing when the Police arrived at the scene, after being alerted by a protester. The police moved the body as some missiles were thrown at them and the police, and later the ambulance, failed to resucitate him. There is no news on whether the man was actually dead when the police arrived, what caused his death etc.

Thats terrible.

Alasdair

jamesieboy

I think the problem is with the anarchists.

I mean they want anarchy, and anarchy equals violence, and the problems with the anarchists is the violence they espouse.

I seem to remember some folks on this list proclaiming their allegiance to anarchism and anarchist groups.

Answer me this - why are they all so violent?

Alasdair

Does Anarchy equal violence? I thought it meant an absence of 'state government' ... ... ... ah yes, the oracle that is wikipedia says:

Rinty

The cartoon version in the media blames anarchists, and idiots like the troll jamsieboy lap it up. To him, it's all about cartoon demons, anarchists, muslims, whatever target the tabloids go for, jamsie is there.

The RBS vandalism was so stage managed it was embarrassing. All of the major media outlets were there to film a window being broken with more photgraphers than anarchists in sight and, somehow, an RBS branch in the city had no police anywhere to be seen.

It gives the green light to excessive policing.

agentmancuso

twistednbent

twistednbent

jamesieboy

The question still hasn't been answered - why are they so violent?

And by the way....

1/ I don't like tabloids (because I'm a teacher, you see, and we don't read tabloids)

2/ My name is not jamsie but jamesieboy. I can't take jam becuse i'm a type 2 diabetic and it would be bad for me.

Anarchism just seems an unreal state of mind. As I asked a few weeks ago (without getting a satisfactory answer) who would you call if your house got burgled? Would you just call up your mates to duff the burglar up?

Rinty

A spectacular display of ignorance jamesie, conirming my post that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Dave Coull

Dave Coull

Dave Coull

Well, well, I wonder why these eye witness reports were not carried by the BBC?

**********************************************************

Various participants in the City of London demonstrations on April 1st have come forward as witnesses to the collapse of a man later identified by authorities as Ian Tomlinson. Four different university students witnessed the collapse of Mr. Tomlinson. “He stumbled towards us from the direction of police and protestors and collapsed,” said Peter Apps. “I saw a demonstrator who was a first aider attend to the person who had collapsed. The man was late 40s, had tattoos on his hands, and was wearing a Millwall shirt.”

While the first aider was helping the man, another demonstrator with a megaphone was calling the police over so that they could help.

Natalie Langford, a student at Queen Mary, said “there was a police charge. A lot of people ran in our direction. The woman giving first aid stood in the path of the crowd.” The running people, seeing a guy on the ground, went around them.

Another demonstrator had already called 999 and was getting medical advice from the ambulance dispatcher. “Four police with two police medics came. They told her [the first aider] to ‘move along’.”, said Peter Apps. “Then they pushed her forcibly away from him. They refused to listen to her [the first aider] when she tried to explain his condition.”

The first aider, who did not wish to be named, said “The police surrounded the collapsed man. I was standing with the person who’d called 999. The ambulance dispatcher wanted to talk to the police, the phone was being held out to them, but the police refused.”

Another witness, Elias Stoakes, added “we didn’t see them [the police] perform CPR.”

Other people who had tried to stay with the collapsed man were also pushed away.

All of the witnesses deny the allegation that many missiles were thrown.

According to Peter Apps, “one bottle was thrown, but it didn’t come close to the police. Nothing was thrown afterwards as other demonstrators told the person to stop. The person who threw the bottle probably didn’t realize that someone was behind the ring of police.” All the witnesses said that the demonstrators were concerned for the well-being of the collapsed man once they realized that there was an injured person.

Natalie Langford said “when the ambulance arrived the protestors got straight out of the way.”

These witnesses are happy to give media statements.

They can be contacted through this press liasion email: g20witnesses@gmail.com

Dave Coull

"With regard to the death reported yesterday, which happened three hours before it was officially reported by BBC and Sky News (obviously orchestrated and timed), a 'natural death' was suggested - as natural as someone kettled in for many hours without food, water and access to a toilet and surrounded by aggressive riot cops can be. The disgusting or unwittingly satirical reporting by BBC News at 10pm last night also included statements that police tried to save the man, but had to retreat because they were being targeted by bottles and other 'missiles' thrown by the evil protestors. Of course the reality is different."

More of this, plus eye witness statements and videos of the events, at

http://colonos.wordpress.com/2009...death-at-the-hands-of-the-police/

It's ironic that a website based in the Amazon rainforest of South America should be carrying news from London not reported by the BBC.

agentmancuso

Alasdair

twistednbent

hahahahahahha. mone the violent scumbags.down with law and order, they are to blame.hahahhahahaha.bad cop beats violent scumbag throwing bottles at people.

ya, boo hiss the police.

mone the scumbags.

hahahahahhahahahaha. teenage rebellion fantasies taken to the extreme indeed and apparently sensible adults are justifying it and blaming the police.hahahahhhahaha.brilliant stuff. can i have some of the class a's your on?

agentmancuso

Look, I don't mind you being a halfwit troll, but can't you at least make an effort to write in proper sentences?

Alasdair

jamesieboy

Mancuso makes a number of good points, but sadly gets derailed by going on about wee made-up names, and Rinty denounces people as being idiots when he simply hasn't got a clue about them or their background.

It is a sad reflection on the clique that dominate this forum: agree with me - fine, if you don't - you are a troll, idiot, na na .. na na na

And awld Dave...what can we say about him? A 71 year old anarchist, he must be interesting company in the pub down in Fife, or wherever he lives.
Jews, Palestinians, Arab dictators and Human Rights abusers, yas they are, and will be, open to the occasional broadside as will the anarchists because amongst their number they have violent individuals who harm people. They will be denounced, as will the tribalists/torturers who masquerade as leaders down in Africa.

We'll keep the flag flying for social democracy, caring capitalism, wealth creation with a human face, because we will always prevail because most people like nothing more than having a good health service and paying some taxes at the same time as making a bob or two.

Anarchism is a dream. A fantasy which can never come true because it goes against human nature.

Name me somewhere where it's been successful applied.

twistednbent

jamesieboy

We have freedom in this country and in western Europe.

We can say what we want, we can debate, we can support terrorists and idiots like George Galloway frequently does, no-one comes round from the security services and knocks on Auld Dave's, or Mancuso's, or Rinty's door at 4 in the morning and drags them away to a detention centre.

Our press if free and can say what it wants, which it frequently does, although much of it is in the pocket of scum/vermin like Rupert Murdoch.

We can go out with our loudspeakers (remember that word?) and shout from the rooftops 'Gordon Brown is a w*****, and we probably would be right.

So get out there and celebrate - celebrate our freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alasdair

twistednbent

there certainly does seem to be a clique on here. they most certainly do not like people disagreeing with them or others being critical of them.if you do criticise them or what they say they witter on about grammar and tell them they are a troll, bigot or lunatic.all the while they speak of the virtues of violent anarchism and blame the police, media or the state. it's very unusal but thankfully they are a tiny minority.

the decent folk in the scottish independence movement must cringe at some of the things that are said on here and are left unchecked because their mate said it.

you have posts glorifying violence, terrorists,racism. one notorious poster who is a member of a republican flute band posts the most disgusting stuff possible in his/her crusade to inform us of the virtues of bombing and how ordinary people are part of a grand conspiracy against ireland. as far as i'm aware he has not been banned.go figure.

so, it does not surprise me that anarchism and violence is glorofied here.

Holebender

It doesn't surprise me you know very little of what goes on here. The poster you refer to gets slapped down regularly, for instance, and I haven't seen him post in a long time.

twistednbent

Holebender

You call it hypocricy. I call it free speech.

I can't stand the person you mentioned and I have had several serious fights with him, but I will defend his right to free speech any day. I'll even defend yours even though you are an obvious troll.

jamesieboy

Holebender and Alastair, you have both made decent points free from abuse.

You should remember that the point of these forums is to provoke discussion and debate and that, sometimes, involves making statements which are controversial/offensive/outrageous and ..provocative.

The problem with some of the people who post on here is that they are very PC and are hidebound by what they say. In other words they can't think out of their box and say something which goes against their PC ideology.

It is a bit like in the heyday of communism when there was only one school of thought and the rest was all reactionary and revisionist.

Immigration is one of those areas where one has to be very careful in case you are labelled as racist. And that fear of being labelled racist leads to a dumbing down of debate and that has to be resisted by all free thinkers.

Dave Coull

Dave Coull

The Observer, Sunday 5 April 2009

Police 'assaulted' bystander who died during G20 protests

report by Mark Townsend and Paul Lewis

The man who died during last week's G20 protests was "assaulted" by riot police shortly before he suffered a heart attack, according to witness statements received by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

Investigators are examining a series of corroborative accounts that allege Ian Tomlinson, 47, was a victim of police violence in the moments before he collapsed near the Bank of England in the City of London last Wednesday evening. Three witnesses have told the Observer that Mr Tomlinson was attacked violently as he made his way home from work at a nearby newsagents. One claims he was struck on the head with a baton.

Photographer Anna Branthwaite said: "I can remember seeing Ian Tomlinson. He was rushed from behind by a riot officer with a helmet and shield two or three minutes before he collapsed." Branthwaite, an experienced press photographer, has made a statement to the IPCC.

Another independent statement supports allegations of police violence. Amiri Howe, 24, recalled seeing Mr Tomlinson being hit "near the head" with a police baton. Howe took one of a sequence of photographs that show a clearly dazed Mr Tomlinson being helped by a bystander.

A female protester, who does not want to be named but has given her testimony to the IPCC, said she saw a man she later recognised as Tomlinson being pushed aggressively from behind by officers. "I saw a man violently propelled forward, as though he'd been flung by the arm, and fall forward on his head.

"He hit the top front area of his head on the pavement. I noticed his fall particularly because it struck me as a horrifically forceful push by a policeman and an especially hard fall; it made me wince."

Mr Tomlinson, a married man who lived alone in a bail hostel, was not taking part in the protests. Initially, his death was attributed by a police post mortem to natural causes. A City of London police statement said: "[He] suffered a sudden heart attack while on his way home from work."

But this version of events was challenged after witnesses recognised the dead man from photographs that were published on Friday.

An IPCC statement was due to be released the same day and is understood to have portrayed the death as a tragic accident. However, the statement's release was postponed as the complaints body received information that police officers may have been more involved in events than previously thought. An IPCC spokesman said yesterday that in light of new statements it was "assessing" the information it had received before deciding whether to launch a full investigation.

Part of the commission's inquiries will involve the examination of CCTV footage from the area.

Liberal Democrat MP David Howarth said: "Eventually there will have to be a full inquest with a jury. It is a possibility this death was at police hands."

A police source told the Observer that Mr Tomlinson appears to have become caught between police lines and protesters, with officers chasing back demonstrators during skirmishes. He was seen stumbling before he collapsed and died on Cornhill Street, opposite St Michael's Alley, around 7.25pm.

At around 7.10pm, protesters had gathered outside the police cordon to call for those contained inside - some for hours - to be let out. Officers with batons and shields attempted to clear them from the road.

Around 7.20pm, five riot police, and a line of officers with dogs, emerged from Royal Exchange Square, a pedestrian side street. Three images taken around this time show Mr Tomlinson on the pavement, in front of five riot police, and in apparent distress. He had one arm in the air, and appeared to be in discussion with the officers.

Mr Tomlinson then appears to have been lifted to his feet by a bystander. Minutes later he fell to the ground. "We saw this guy staggering around," said Natalie Langford, 21, a student. "He looked disorientated. About five seconds later he fell, and I grabbed my friends to help him."

Police have claimed that when paramedics tried to move Mr Tomlinson away for urgent treatment, bottles were thrown at them by protesters. He was later pronounced dead at hospital.

Branthwaite added: "He [Mr Tomlinson] was not a mouthy kid or causing problems, but the police seemed to have lost control and were trying to push protesters back. The police had started to filter people into a side street off Cornhill. There were a few stragglers who were just walking through between the police and protesters. Mr Tomlinson was one of those."

The police tactics during the G20 protests were condemned in the aftermath of the demonstrations. The clearance of a climate camp along Bishopsgate by riot police with batons and dogs after nightfall on Wednesday came in for particular criticism.

Protesters marched to Bethnal Green police station in east London yesterday to demand a public inquiry into Mr Tomlinson's death.

Dave Coull

Dave Coull

Dave Coull

Holebender

To be fair, the rfb character has frequently posted praising the IRA and its violence, so there have indeed been posts glorifying terrorists and violence. Teacherboy has posted some pretty racist stuff about "Arabs", Jews, etc. so there have been racist posts too. The question is how such posts are handled and, in my book, a robust counter-argument beats censorship any day.

Dave Coull

jamesieboy

So if somebody disagrees with Dave and comes out with statements that he doesn't like then they're 'really stupid' and an 'idiot'.

There's an intolerance that permeates the clique on this site, and others are now coming on and saying this. And I can assure you Dave, I am no idiot though I may admit to being a troll on occasion.

That doesn't make me a bad man.

There's too many pseudo intellectuals that take themselves really seriously and when they come across someone like myself who asks questions that others are afraid to address, and can quote experiences of living in countries that they have little knowledge about, and having an academic background as well as an experience of working in offices and industry then it seems as if some people feel intimidated. That feeling of inferiority is regrettable but I'm here to help all you pseuds.

It is simply pathetic that some people on this site have ridiculed me and my background, despite me quoting individuals and individual organisations and references until I'm blue in the face.

Of course, other people have their own experiences and it is a good thing to speak of them and to relate to them with people on this messageboard.
Why should I be any different?

The issues that I bring up on this site are ones that I often hear being discussed on the street, in the pub, on the train and the bus and in the staffroom. They are issues which concern a large slice of the population. Immigration. Terrorism. The Economy. Corruption. Rising Prices. Football. Scottish culture.

And Dave, you said you were breaking windows about 60 years ago yet deny you are 71. Let's just say you are well past your working lifetime, probably in your early 70's, though it is not that important.

Anyway, I suspect you're a sincere kind of guy and I wish you well and hope that you have recovered from your illness.

And you live 30 miles from the nearest hospital. Obviously not an urbanite. Perthshire, maybe. The Borders?

jamesieboy

Holebander -

I have never made a racist posting on this site. To accuse someone of racism you need hard facts. It is pathetic and a slur to cry wolf (racist).

I have denounced both the Zionists (fascists) and the terrorist low-lifes that run the Arab (Palestinian) entity of Gaza.

I have never called our friends in the jewish community silly names like yids or jewboys. And i have never called our Arab amigos ragheads.

I have quoted human rights organisations when doing that.

Free the repressed peoples of the Arab world from dictator scumbags like Assad in Syria and the ruling royal despots in Saudi Arabia, to mention a few. Free the Palestinians from the clericalists of Hamas and the Israeli militarists.

Be consistent. And show respect.

Dave Coull

linoleum

re. the clique on here. there are some very vague and extremely flimsy arguments being put forward to defend the viewpoint it's not a clique.

it's seems clear if you step out of line and question things you are branded a racist.

'groupthink' is what springs to mind.

also this talk of people being banned but members freely admit that one member glorifying violence and terrorism on here remains a member.

could i be as bold to ask what you have to do to get banned?

i'll not be posting here again if people are comfortable with trash who glorify child murderers posting on their site.

good luck to you all.i mean that.

Dave Coull

magister ludi

@dave coull,

dave, i know it was many posts ago on this thread ( and you seem to have been in and out of hospital meantime...hope you're ok...pleased if you are)

you said:
" During the 64 years since the end of the Second World War, the armed forces of the British state have been involved in violence in some part of the world or other in every one of those 64 years except one."

Pray please tell, which year was that?
I ask because I must have missed it.

Rinty

There is no clique on here, the forum is mainly populated by people who want to discuss politics so there is usually unanimity when a racist troll comes on to the forum.

I suggest the mods issue a yellow card for Jamsie's latest pathetic attempt to indirectly introduce racist terms for jewish people and arabs.

jamesieboy

I am NOT a racist because much of my life I have fought against racism.
I have worked and helped asylum seekers from violent racist and mysogynist regimes like Zimbabwe and Somalia and have helped to raise funds to take them to Scotland games. Sound racist to you?

Ragheads and Yids are common terms used by many people in our society. I don't use these terms myself because some may regard them as offensive but yids are what some people call Tottenham supporters because of their Jewish links. It is an affectionate term for some people the same way as ***** is used in some rap songs by some black singers in the US but would be regarded by most as offensive.

You shouldn't be afraid of using racist terms in the context of a discussion.
Because different races have different names, some offensive, others less so.

Micks come from Ireland. Poms come from England. As do limeys. Scousers come from Liverpool. Brummies from Birmingham. Polaks from Poland. Russkies from Russia. Jocks from Scotland (and I, for one, don't mind being called a Jock), Cockneys from London (sometimes known as spivs), sheep shaggers from Aberdeen, frogs from france, eyeties from Italy, dagoes and spicks from Spain, shirtlifters from Brighton and so on.

Some of these names are offensive, some are not. You just have to be a big boy and live with them and not be afraid of the PC police coming to lift you.

Holebender

Just because a word is in common use in some circles that doesn't mean you have to be a thoughtless boor and continue its usage. The test, for me, is would I feel comfortable using the term in front of a stranger from that group. If the answer is no, I don't use it in any circumstances. It has nothing to do with "Political Correctness" and everything to do with respect for others and for myself.

From now on I'm just going to refer to you as "Trollboy" because "Teacherboy" gives you too much credit. It's no wonder kids today as so poorly educated.

Rinty

There is no PC police, it's all in your mind.

People like you get everywhere telling us that we are not allowed to talk about race or immigration when, in fact, it is dicussed in every media oputlet constantly. Usually accopmanied by an ifiot who proceeds talking about race and immigration with a statement as to how no-one is allowed to talk about it!

You are trying to influence almost every debate on this site into becoming another outlet for your rants about arabs, gypsys and jews. I am bored with it now and think that the mods should start pulling you up when you use racist terms. You pretend that you are using them in context but are delighted to have a context to use them in.

You are not shocking anyone, this is the grown up world. You are just boring and, of course, an idiot.

jamesieboy

There is nothing more boring than a politically correct pedant like yourself.

As a previous poster pointed out this is groupspeak, when you have all those in the group who adhere to this conformity of not using words which might offend.

You politically correct mob are laughed at and ridiculed by the rest of society for your sheer stupidity and naivety.

I am proud to say i am not politically correct, and many of my friends are not either (most of whom are very well-educated and well-travelled. We're not afraid to use any word, anywhere, anytime, to anyone. As long as we don't insult a person and use sweary words then it is perfectly fine to do that and we will not put up with some woolly headed liberal censoring us.

linoleum

[quote="Holebender"] It has nothing to do with "Political Correctness" and everything to do with respect for others and for myself.

From now on I'm just going to refer to you as "Trollboy" because "Teacherboy" gives you too much credit. It's no wonder kids today as so poorly educated.[/quote]

hahahahahahahahaha, you been on the happy pills?
'respect for others'.
hilarious, absolutely hilarious.
go research 'groupthink'. it really does sum up the clique on here.

Rinty

jamesieboy

Let me ask you a simple question:

who decides what is a racist insult and what is not.

Jock - is that an insulting word?

Mick - is that?

Scouser - is that?

Why is the word p**i an insult yet afghani is not?

Rinty

linoleum

[quote="jamesieboy"]Let me ask you a simple question:

who decides what is a racist insult and what is not.

Jock - is that an insulting word?

Mick - is that?

Scouser - is that?

Why is the word p**i an insult yet afghani is not?[/quote]

now this is interesting, i've often wondered about offensive and being offended. who decides?
gets right interesting with the old firm.
celtic fans are notorious for being offended about anything that gets 'sung' there way and in turn claim rangers/hearts/killie fans are offensive and thus are bigots etc.

heres where it gets intersting, celtic fans claim they are offended so an 'offence' has taken place. but if a killie or jam tartz fan feels offended by something that is 'sung' at them by celtic fans, the celtic fans right it off as 'political' or 'heritage' or 'banter'.

same applies to racism, with the watered down rules on racism being thrown around on here like confetti, the same watered down rules apply to everyone. the simpleminded fools calling jamsieboy a racist are in fact being racist themselves by making deragatory remarks about him, they are intolerant of him and his views.

and as we are being told, silly deragoatory remarks can be regarded as racist, offensive and whatever else. jamiesboy is well within his rights to call you racist or whatever else.

PC people, these are the rules you choose to play by, you have to accpet that they apply to you as well.

is'nt this fun?

Holebender

So Trollboy is a race is he?

You didn't stay away long, did you?

Dave Coull

linoleum

[quote="Dave Coull"][quote="linoleum"]
[/quote]
Hang on a minute, what was that? "Linoleum wrote"? That can't possibly be the same "Linoleum", who, at twenty past nine last night, said

[quote]i'll not be posting here again[/quote]

It must be a different piece of linoleum.

[quote="a different piece of linoleum"]the simpleminded fools calling jamsieboy a racist are in fact being racist themselves by making deragatory remarks about him[/quote]No, no, a different piece of linoleum, you've got that all wrong. It's a matter of opinion whether folk are simple minded fools or not. It's also a matter of opinion whether jamesieboy is racist or not. But it's not a matter of opinion whether making derogatory remarks is automatically racist. For example: Â suppose I should form, about somebody who I know to be of a virtually identical national/ethnic/cultural/religious background to myself, the opinion that they are not too bright. Suppose I should say this person is as thick as two short planks. That would be a derogatory remark by me Â - Â but it could NOT be racist, because it would be about a person I knew to be of the same "race" as myself.[/quote]

i lied.
how do you know he's the same race as you?
he could be welsh, english,irish, presbyterian or mormon.
if he is different from you in one of these ways ait can be regarded as racism.
thems the rules according to here.

Holebender

Religions are races too? Who knew?

Do share some more of your wisdom with us, oh great floor covering.

Rinty

"how do you know he's the same race as you?
he could be welsh, english,irish, presbyterian or mormon.
if he is different from you in one of these ways ait can be regarded as racism.
thems the rules according to here."

What rules? How is it racist to call someone an idot when you have no idea what race they are and dont mention his race?

Thats nonsense.

To get back on thread, I hope this video from the Guardian clears up the story about the police trying to save the life of a man and being stopped by protesters. The footage clearly shows the man being pushed to the ground by police.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault

Dave Coull

Rinty

ditto.

jamesieboy IS a racist.

linoleum

[quote="Dave Coull"][quote="linoleum"] I have conclusively proved that it is possible to make a derogatory remark about somebody without being racist. .[/quote]

i'm in complete agreement, thank you. could you please advise some of the idiots on this site that this is so.

Holebender

But, o magnificent floor covering, you cannot apply Dave's logic to conclude that derogatory remarks are not racist, only that they need not be. In other words, advise the idiots yourself, and be sure to tell us how you reach your conclusions. We like a bit of corroboration with our opinions around here.

linoleum

[quote="Holebender"]But, o magnificent floor covering, you cannot apply Dave's logic to conclude that derogatory remarks are not racist, only that they need not be. In other words, advise the idiots yourself, and be sure to tell us how you reach your conclusions. We like a bit of corroboration with our opinions around here.[/quote]

you like a bit of corroboration?
is that a joke?
2 people who live and work both in and near govanhell, tell it like it is and it is derided and the word racism is branded around, you only like corroboration if it suits your view.

as for racism, of course one can be derogaotory with out being racist and of course one can be derogatory and be racist to both individuals and other races.you merely underline my point and you seem to have a grasp of what the word means.some do not and apply it very minor derogatory comments and phrases. liberal agitators like to use the word racism on a whim and it makes a mockery of the true meaning of the word and where true racism occurs.that in itself is shameful.

Alasdair

jamesieboy

Alasdair - you are a sad individual for whom everything must be corroborated by finding sources like 'serious newspapers' and no doubt books by Marx on dialectical materialism.

And look what happened to him and his philosophy. Dustbin of Historymy friend.

Other folk, you'll find, live in the real world and prefer to believe what they see and hear.

Deflect and Deny. I like that, linoleum. You've just about summed up this mob.

BTW, I noticed that you didn't put a comma where it should have been. Or a full stop! That tactic then takes on arms and legs and becomes the topic of conversation itself.

As if anybody cares if you're familiar or not with every aspect of the keyboard. The purpose is to deflect and deny, as you pointed out.

Anybody that knows me, and I can be found in Tennent's Bar, Byres Road on a friday night, know that I most certainly not a racist.

Why would I work with asylum seekers?

My point is, that if you come into this country from somewhere unstable you come in as a guest. Yes, you will be helped, yes you wlll be encouraged but you have responsibilities too.

And guests have to respect not only the hospitality and support that they get here, but the customs of the local people.

And wrecking the community and the environment around them is certainly not one of those customs.

Dave Coull

Alasdair

linoleum

[quote="Alasdair"][quote="jamesieboy"]Alasdair - you are a sad individual for whom everything must be corroborated by finding sources like 'serious newspapers' and no doubt books by Marx on dialectical materialism.[/quote]

No I am the sort of individual who will not take what I am told for granted by vague individuals who spend most of their time in ...

[quote="jamesieboy"]... Tennent's Bar, Byres Road ...[/quote]

... like anybody really cares where you spend your friday nights.

As to marx, no I can't say Marx is of any particular interest to me just as evidence or corroboration seems to be of no particular interest to you or the lino man.

You can call me "sad" or whatever you like, to be honest I don't really care I've been called worse by better than you but fortunately my skins thick enough to take it. Rolling Eyes

[/quote]

actually i think you are quite sad. not just what you post here but that dull, patronising, twee, 'father-earth', 'daddy's club' blog i had a look at. i'm sure your not a bad guy and all that but good lord thats dull.

Alasdair

Alasdair

hmm ... is this the 'delay and divert' tactic that was being referred to earlier?

Rinty

The marxist stuff is another clue to the fact that these two are BNP propagandists.

They see everyome to the left of Genghis Khan as a marxist, from the media to New Labour.

linoleum

bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda
bnp propoganda

Holebender

Troll!

jamesieboy

Rinty. Holebender. Alasdair.

Keep denying. Keep deflecting. Keep calling other posters childish
made-up names and keep burying your head in the sand.

Troll. Racist. BNP supporter. It is worse than pathetic.

I have seen it all before but, like many others who ply my trade,
I soldier on in the hope that you will all get good standard grades in
a few years time.

And maybe after that the puerile name-calling which passes for
informed debate will subside.

WE live in hope.

Rinty

pot and kettle eh?

It is you who is in denial and you who reverts to name calling. 'informed debate' suggests involving information. You should try it.

jamesieboy

..and in the world, according to Rinty, things are fairly simple.

Example: if you are opposed to Marxism/Marxist policies/Marxist dialecticalism then you are a BNP supporter.

I don't know what you do for a living Rinty, son, but I hope it's not a Modern Studies teacher

Because I think after about 5 minutes you will see that there are quite a few parties and points-of-view in-between.

jamesieboy

And, yet again, what are you looking for.

I have given Sites for the Sunday Herald on this topic.

I have stated a number of articles in the Evening Times about the possibility of a race war breaking out in Govanhill.

Good God, given the nature of my profession do I need to spell it out for you where I get a lot of my information from.

I'm saying no more about that - it should be bleedin obvious.

In the meantime, I will state that social workers, police, health professionals and teachers have a wee bit more information about what is
(and what's not) going on in Scotland's communities than the rest of you.

And we don't need to read an Oxfam report, interesting though it is, to know that the people most exploiting the most wretched ones in Govanhill are the slavemasters, the pimps, the despicable slum landlords...

And by pure coincidence, most of the names and the reports quoted in the papers suggest that the Roma parents and certain Asian businessmen
(including one, embarrassingly, an SNP councillor are the worst perpretrators.

And Rinty, Govanhill WAS NOT always a deprived area. In the seventies I worked for BT in St Vincent St (address 255) beside some elderly ladies who came from there and it was a thriving area which people had a pride in.

Also, another point. I, and my friends, have been going to Scotland games at Hampden regularly since the Brian Labone(crusher) and Colin Stein incident, we have been drinking in the pubs and still do so (Billy McNeil's - off Victoria Rd)in the 70's and we are in no doubt that the area has gone badly downhill (not Dowanhill1) especially in the last 5 years or so.

Again, for the LAST time, I urge you to talk to folks in these establishments. They will tell you the truth.

Rinty

I speak to more people and know more people in Govanhill than yopu do. You have stated that you used to know people from there who worked with you and that you used to work 'near' there, now you have a connection through drinking in a pub in Vicky Road in the 70's.

The health professionals and people directly involved were part of the oxfam report. It is you who are being blinkered and refusing to take in all of the available evidence.

Very interesting that you describe the landlords as asian.

I see pimps, you see roma, I see slum landlords, you see asians. If you could see past the race issue you might be able to make sense of the experience and information you have instead of wasting it on tin-foil hatted conspiracy theories of our culture being under attack.

jamesieboy

Obviously the Oxfam report is going to be selective.

They, as an international organisation, have a duty to be diplomatic
and not offend any ethnic group. Their agenda will almost certainly be PC.

They will certainly not include any material which criticises the Roma/Slovak gypsies for the dirty conditions which they are creating and the criminal activities many of their number are engaged in because their agenda is, before they even arrive, 'the Roma are a discriminated minority who are persecuted all over Europe' without asking why????

Most of the slum landlords probably are Asian. The same as most of the neds in the west of Scotland are indigenous Scots or second generation Irish. As are most of the gangsters like the Lyons and McGovern clans.

Obviously you don't read the Evening times. Remember Councillor Kalshnikov a few months ago? He was the main perpretrators of the awful housing conditions in the area ..and profiting from it.

Or is your reading selective and only suits your narrow political agenda.

I much prefer to listen to what local people say on the ground. And what they are saying certainly doues not fit in with this denial nonsense you are peddling.

As I have tried to point out to you before my info comes from the horse's
mouth. You know my profession, you know who I talk to and sometimes we discuss what is going on in the local area. It doesn't take a genius, and you are certainly not that, to figure it out.

And BTW, my knowledge of Glasgow and the surrounding area is very good, based on the info in the last paragraph.

Also, I suggest you by the Digger - a local newspaper which exposes what is going on that reaches the parts other papers fear to reach.

Rinty

I know the digger well mate, I know Glasgow well, I know Govanhil well.

You push selective evidence that suits your racist agenda.

jamesieboy

You have no evidence that i am a racist. This name-calling is 'pathetic'. You are obviously of an adolescent mentality. and that is very typical of, in the absence of being able to indulge in informed debate, someone who constantly repeats the stock answer because they don't have the information/knowledge/education to formulate a cohesive answer.

It is, as a previous poster mentioned, infantile name calling where, if anybody criticises certain traits of an ethnic/cultural group they are instantly condemned as racist. This is shoddy and amateurish analysis and shames and embarrasses the individual who makes the remarks.

Again, go up the closes in Westmoreland Street where the roma/slovak live and see for yourself. And take a sick bag when you come across the mess, it is not pretty.

We are all supposed to be so right-on and believe the myth that all peoples are the same. They obviously are not.

Multiculturalism makes a lot of assumptions, some of which are glaringly wrong. History is full of massacres and abuses by one ethnic group over the other, unfortunately. It is based on wishes, rather than facts. Did I mention the Hutus and Tutsis,anybody?

I'm sure the Armenians thought they could fit in to the Ottoman Empire until they were massacred in their millions in the early 20th century..

I have a lot more experience in living in, and observing the traits and habits of people who inhabit places where I've taught English. Some I like,
the Swedes organisation and technical ingenuity. But there is also a coldness among many of the people, a reserved nature which, coming from the west of Scotland takes a bit of getting used to.

Of course, the phrase 'to see ourselves as others see us' also applies.
Rabbie Burns glorified the partaking in the consumption of John Barleycorn.

The glorifying of drink and drunkenness may be viewed negatively by someone from a more pious culture. A devout muslim/hindu/sikh/jew no doubt looks at the young people out of their minds at weekends in this culture and be repulsed. But, then again, they may have their own issues.

I mentioned before on this site the peculiar habit of some cultures of making a noise frequently. The Spanish do this often, sounding their 'timbre' (horn) at any annoyance they might come across when driving in the middle of a city. Madrid is a good example. The din from car horns is , at times, insufferable. Drivers there often sound the horn if they are blocked in, no doubt in the hope that somebody, somewhere will arrive and alleviate the situation. It never occurs to them that someone else, namely the thousands of householders and pedestrians may be annoyed.

This never, ever happens in Stockholm, where silence prevails.

So Rinty, get out more. See the world. Take in the annoying and appealing traits of different cultures. See life as it really is, not through the textbook.

linoleum

[quote="Rinty"]I know the digger well mate, I know Glasgow well, I know Govanhil well.

You push selective evidence that suits your racist agenda.[/quote]

this may sound crazy but
i know the digger well mate, i know glasgow well, i know groundzero well. YOU push selective evidence that suits your PC, liberal,handwringing and self-loathing agenda.

Alasdair

since when have "liberal" and "PC" been insults, for my money they equate to open-mindness and politeness?

Just curious, I'm sure the "liberal" one is an american import while the "PC" one is only thrown about by bigots and racists ... maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not sure why I bother tbh ... I don't really care Rolling Eyes

linoleum

[quote="Alasdair"]since when have "liberal" and "PC" been insults, for my money they equate to open-mindness and politeness?

Just curious, I'm sure the "liberal" one is an american import while the "PC" one is only thrown about by bigots and racists ... maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not sure why I bother tbh ... I don't really care Rolling Eyes

[/quote]

not so much liberal, perhaps liberal agitators is a better turn of phrase. as for PC being an insult, if you are unaware that being labeled PC is an insult then i suggest you get out more and stop reading whatever you have been reading or stop listening to whoever has filled your head with codswallop like that.

it is not, never has been and never will be 'cool' to be PC.

being PC is just wanky. i find that being decent, respectful,kind and an all round good egg is much more positive.

i don't go around being anti-semetic, racist, sexist or ageist to be PC. it comes naturally, am a decent human bean.

you have issues if you have to be PC to know how to behave and what to say and when and where.BIG issues.

Alasdair

Being PC is not about being cool, nor is it about turning a blind eye to the nastier elements in the world. What it is about is understanding that not every slovak/albanian/londoner/whatever is the same as the next one because one or a group happen to behave in a particularly despicable manner.

More, than that in some ways. It's also about being polite and accepting that certain turns of phrase are not acceptable.

Dave Coull

Shagpile

jamesieboy

You just loathe your country. What's your alternative to what we've got?
Which country should we aspire to?

De Menezes being accidentally murdered was a massive tragedy and injustice. No-one could deny that.

Liberal economics means Reagan/Thatcherite policy. It means laissez faire which basically says, leave well alone.

In other words let the markets decide.

We are now seeing the results of that policy in the financial chaos that is enveloping the country.

On and by the way, Gordon Brown loved liberal economics. He couldn't get enough of it when he was chancellor.

linoleum

[quote="Alasdair"]Being PC is not about being cool, nor is it about turning a blind eye to the nastier elements in the world. Â What it is about is understanding that not every slovak/albanian/londoner/whatever is the same as the next one because one or a group happen to behave in a particularly despicable manner.

More, than that in some ways. Â It's also about being polite and accepting that certain turns of phrase are not acceptable.[/quote]

hello,HELLO!!!! why are you just repeating what i said. normal, decent, polite,kind, respectful and thoughtful people do all of the above all the time. it's not new, it's being a decent person. as i said before if you have to abide by PC rules to do the above, there something wrong with you and something lacking in your moral fibre if abiding by the PC guidlines stops you being offensive.

if you need a rule book to tell you how to be a nice person thats your problem but don't try and force your false value system onto others who's value system is fine. and drop the patronising tone while your at it although i think that comes free with the PC rule book.

linoleum

[quote="Shagpile"][quote="jamesieboy"]In the meantime, I will state that social workers, police, health professionals and teachers have a wee bit more information about what is
(and what's not) going on in Scotland's communities than the rest of you.[/quote]

Which is why of course cases like "Baby P", occur all too often. Crimes go unsolved. Pensioners and the mentally ill are abused. And our dole ques are bursting with uneducated graduates.

I know enough about "what's going on" to realise that this sort of caveat is espoused, by those who don't; or don't wish to know, what's going on.

A bit harsh on the above proffetionals?.... Absolutely! Have I just disparaged; what I'm sure is the majority, involved in these professions?.... Again, absolutely!

I am aware of that...... I don't believe you can say the same.

The death penalty in this country has been abolished, and rightly so. Never (likely) to return.

You give me the impression from your remaks that the police were absolutely right to shoot the De Menzies boy. And it was absolutely correct that the only post mortem carried out, was the one on that poor lads body.

So, we don't have capital punnishment per se. Instead we have summery executions, by what is no more than a government death squad!

But that's ok.. "I will state that social workers, [b]police,[/b] health professionals and teachers [b]have a wee bit more information about what is
(and what's not) going on[/b]". Â Â Aye right![/quote]

tbh i don't think you have any idea as to whats going on. whilst debating one subject and you start rambling on about something unrelated (the brazilian illegal immigrant who ran away from armed police after being told to stop, several times, onto a train,the day after attempted homicide bombings on trains.duh, how daft was he????. and then his 1 post mortem) whilst trashing not 1 but 4 groups of public servants. you should be writing for the daily sport.

Dave Coull

I have already pointed out how "linoleum" persistently follows the agenda of the far right in the USA:

Holebender

I said I wouldn't feed the troll, but I really have to comment on his latest post; Jean Charles deMenezes was not running from police and he was not challenged to stop. That was confirmed by every non-police eye witness at the enquiry into his illegal killing. I also doubt if he was an illegal immigrant, but I can't be bothered checking.

If all you are going to do is comment on another post, why try (and fail) to quote the entire post when only a sentence or paragraph would do? And why don't you learn to use the quote facility (you've been told) before continuing? Here's a suggestion; if the quote doesn't work, edit your post and remove the quoted text. It's just an annoyance as it is, which I am quite prepared to believe suits you fine.

Back on ignore.

Dave Coull

Rinty

"I have a lot more experience in living in, and observing the traits and habits of people who inhabit places where I've taught English."

No, you come where and tell people that you do. And, so far, what you have told us of your extensive experience doesnt amount to much.

"So Rinty, get out more. See the world. Take in the annoying and appealing traits of different cultures. See life as it really is, not through the textbook."

Thanks for your advice mate. Do you really think that you are qualified to judge whether I need to do this?

What parts of culture, lifestyle or the world do you reckon I am short in experience in?

This debate has now focussed an a divide between the majority who have an open mind on Govanhill. They acknowledge the problems, from dirty closes, to prostitution, have a 'bigger picture view' of how these problems emerge and how they affect communitites. And on the other side are two people whose views of Govanhill are that all of the problems are down to asian landlords and slovak immigrants.

The evidence presented so far amounts to one report from the work of the professionals involved and one report in the Herald from a resident and a report in the Sunday Herald about a police operation. All of that evidence lends support to the open-minded side of the debate.

It seems jamsie and Lino are reduced to trying to smear the individuals with allegations that they live sheltered lives. Dont you realise when you are fighting a losing battle? cant you recognise when a debate is lost?

It's now a matter of whether you two bring new eveidence to the table to ressurect your failed argument, or just give up

Rinty

Mods: Can we merge the two anti-roma threads into one as they have become the same debate more or less.

As it has degraded into the two racists calling people PC and Liberal and making the usual baseless claims that everyone else has never been out of a textbook or a leafy suburb then it would be better if there was only one of those annoying threads.

Dave Coull

jamesieboy

Political correctness is the enemy of all free thinkers.

The PC world involves denial and then deflection.

It involves censorship.

It censors not only free thinking but humour. Think of all the humorists, satirists and comedians who have been condemned by pc people because they have taken offence to something that they have said.

Bernard Manning anyone? The more they condemned him the more popular he was with the people.

Free speech will never die. And a free press will never die, no matter how much you try to oppress us.

And, above all, political correctness patronises black, asian and chinese people. It assumes that they are offended by certain words, actions and phases. In many cases, it assumes wrong.

On many occasions individuals from the ethnic minorities have mentioned to me that they don't find anything offensive about the some of the stuff the PC brigade go on about.

But it keeps people in jobs. It gives jobs for the boys. Anti-racism officer on Somewhereshire Council???? I ask you.

Rinty

There is no PC brigade, its a contsruct of a right-wing media and an overreaction to people being a bit embarrassed at not knowing how to address people.

All 'PC' is is the changing of our cultural terms of reference due to despite from society not to offend, a sort of institutionalised politeness, albeit sometimes in clumsy form.

Those that make a big deal about it are usually those who object to being social pariahs for using offensive terms. They get an embarassed silences in public when using words like 'p**i and then, instead of the mature response to change your habits, go into a rant about 'freedom of speech'.

There has been no examples of the "PC Brigade" in these threads, apart from in your tin-foil caped head.