Im terrible at this!

ProudToBeAScotsGirl · Im terrible at this!

Hi everyone,

Ok, here's what's going on. I have a chatroom I go to regularly, and there's a nice girl there, but she's a history nut. Nothing wrong with that, but everytime I try to defend Scotland, she pulls out some information that proves me wrong. Im not a debater, I don't know much histroy, but I have the fire to go out of character to defend Scotland. Now, I am not someone to spit out assumptions and lies to win a debate, and ive been researching this site and other wonderful Scots independence websites to back up my debate...a first for me I might add. It started with her saying the Scot's voted no to being seperate from the UK, but I spoke to a nice person on this forum who replied to my nearly in tears PM and explained there has not been a referendum for the Scot's to vote for independence.

Well, just when I was building confidence, suddenly I am saying how unfair the Scot's have been treated after reading how they were actually tricked into joining with England into the United Kingdom. I showed her the article, she said it's untrue, or rather, she doesen't believe it. Then we went on to chat about why Scotland became the UK with England, how it was because they tried to build a colony in Panama or somewhere down there, and because England woulden't trade with them (or the rest of the world she informed me) the colony....or settlers she said....caused Scotland to lose nearly half it's money. So, she said England offered up the money they lost and to allow trade if they would join the union. That still sounds like trickery to me, but she doesen't feel that way.

Then I go on to try to explain how even now Scotland is getting infair treatment, and give a link someone posted about "the big lie" thinking that would be a perfect example among many. Well, she didn't even look, and went on saying how in the UK parlement England has 529 representatives from England, 40 from Wales, 18 from Northern Ireland and 59 from Scotland. Now, im still learning how the government works over there, but that sounds really outragious to me. She says it works in Scotlands favor, but I really don't see how. Even if it's done by % of population, that's just an outragious difference if you ask me. Thankgoodness for the Scot's parelement, though I heard it has limited powers.

Right, ok, don't think im arguing with this poor girl because we are cool at the end and appreciate making each other learn like this. But at the same time, and I haven't told her, I am really upset I can't defend Scotland. Sometimes after talking to her I worry that everything I read about Scotland being treated unfair is maybe a stretch of truth to win favor...but I can't believe that. I don't know what to think, makes me wish a full blown textbook was in front of me that I could show someone and have them read that what I am telling them about Scotland is straight fact. But....even so....I do believe that back in that time period history could have been written differently to benefit England. Maybe I need to just get reading and understand Scotland history better, I don't know.

What should I do??? I want to be able to defend my future home! And for that matter, my boyfriend, who is a born, raised, and ancestoral Scot. Crying or Very sad

I feel when I get into debates I am not just defending Scotland, im defending him, because it's part of who he is. And he's part of who I am, so Scotland is in my heart through him. I must admit, the fire to defend and love Scotland just sort of happened too just getting to know my boyfriend, someone told me it's the "ancestrial blood memories" im feeling. I don't know if im related to any Scots, but it's possible seeing as I have cried worrying about Scotland. What can I do to defend Scotland intelligently? No one wants to hear "it comes from the heart."

True Scotsman

Scotland was forced into a union with England. We were bribed, blackmailed,
threatened, bullied, & forced into a Union with England. As Robert Burns put it "We're bought and sold for English gold".

A Parcel of Rogues in a Nation

http://www.worldburnsclub.com/poe..._parcel_of_rogues_in_a_nation.htm

The Darien Scheme, Thanks to Rinty on finding this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/nations/scotland_darien_01.shtml

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FREEDOM FOR SCOTLAND!!!!!!!!

Highlander

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

Looks like they were tricked to me Highlander....strange you say that when you're on a Scottish Independence website. If the English had not announced that trade wasn't allowed with their neighbor while trying to set up that colony, Scotland would still be independent. But all they cared about was they feared competition, honestly, Spain was already there, and Scotland was poor enough at the time. Did they think more folks would come to try the idea after Scotland or something? You would think they would encourage it, more trade and all that with two sources of goodies coming across, especially if England had helped…from what I read of course. Now, someone DID tell me that England refused trade from several countries, not just Scotland. BUT...even if that is true, why did they see a tiny poor country like Scotland such a threat to include them from trade? I think all Scotland was trying to do was better herself for her peoples quality of life, it's not like they would have a HUGE advantage because other countries had also made camp at Panama like Spain. Another thing that puzzles me is if England wanted to be a union with Scotland so badly for the "benefits" why woulden't they push for union AFTER Scotland managed to get a colony going? Thus having helped instead of refusing help, and benefeted from an extra colony? I supose they could assume Scotland want's nothing to do with England, which is right, so they decided to put them in a situation where they had no choice. Boom!

Anyone can say Scotland benefited greatly from the union, but you have to ask yourself, did they really want it? If you're flat broke, you're ultimately forced to do something you don't want to, say for this analogy take money from a dodgy friend. It's worse when the reason you are broke is because your dodgy friend cut off your resources and your plans backfired when you are sure he had worst competition to worry about. So, broke, your friend suddenly offers you up all the money you lost (as your parents will kill you when they find out) under the condition that you become partners. Do you want to be partners with this dodgy friend? No, but you don't have much choice, and I believe Scotland didn't either, despite any benefits.

Also, I read all the articles about how Scotland can stand on her own two feet, which is wonderful! The Union did whatever good it did now, and I am ready to see Scotland become free again! woo hoo!

There's my attempt at defending Scotland! I think I am doing a wee bit better. Im really terrible at this history/politics stuff, but im giving it a go for Scotland!

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

Economist

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/union/intro_union.shtml

Another good link, similar to that from True Scotsman.

It seems to me the Union came about through English greed, as much as a failed Scottish financial venture.

Not England's finest hour, or Scotland's either for that matter.

True Scotsman

Your welcome ProudToBeAScotsGirl about the peom & exactly my point as well about the ''We''.

It was the Union of Crowns that currupt Scotland in the first place &
England did on purpose so they could get a Union with Scotland. Only 15 out 110 Members of the Scottish Parliament (Lords, Judges, etc) that voted for Union actually supported a Union so how did they managed to get the other 95 Members to support the Union. Here a list of some of those members who were bribed.

Duke of Montrose £200
Duke of Athole £1000
Duke of Roxburgh £500
Marquis of Tweeddale £1000
Earl of Marchmont £1104
Earl of Cromarty £300
Earl of Balcarres £500
Earl of Dunmore £200
Earl of Eglinton £200
Earl of Forfar £100
Earl of Glen Cairn £100
Earl of Kintore £200
Earl of Findlater £100
Earl of Seafield £490
Lord Prestonhall £200
Lord Ormiston £200
Lord Anstruther £300
Lord Fraser £100
Lord Polwarth £50
Lord Forbes £50
Lord Elibank £50
Lord Banff £11
Provost of Ayr £100

______________________________________
FREEDOM FOR SCOTLAND!!!!!!!!

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

Lord Banff did it for £11? Shocked

IF Convenor

He was cheap, not smart.

Hazel

<<Then we went on to chat about why Scotland became the UK with England, how it was because they tried to build a colony in Panama or somewhere down there, and because England woulden't trade with them (or the rest of the world she informed me) the colony....or settlers she said....caused Scotland to lose nearly half it's money. So, she said England offered up the money they lost and to allow trade if they would join the union. That still sounds like trickery to me, but she doesen't feel that way. >>

My apologies. I have to copy/paste because, try as I will, I have never mastered the other method where you can quote just part of a previous post.

Now, having said that, the answer to what you can do is read, read, read. For example, the above quote from yours. Trickery it was. You are right. But the person arguing with you is correct in what she is saying. Scotland was almost bankrupt by that colony. (Why can't I say its name right now? It's on the tip of my tongue.) The colony had many problems because they went in there not knowing what a different environment it was. Many died. Their economic plans never got off the ground. They needed support but England (and, unfortunately some in Scotland) refused to send it. If I remember rightly, one ship tried to go but England warned other Caribbean nations not to let them through. In the end certain "England-friendly" Scots with an eye on the British pound led their own country into capitulation.

Another point that will help you know what to expect from the debaters is that there were many Scots who wanted England in. Over the centuries, for one political reason or another, kings and other strong figures in Scotland invited English, Flemish, and others into Scotland with gifts of land in return for their political support.

It was not a clear case of England invading and forcing Scotland to sign on. There was a lot of Scots against Scots looking to England for support in their own goals. Do you happen to know, for example, how John Balliol became king of Scotland?

When you are well versed in what really happened, you will be able to hold your own against those who see it another way. You want unbiased history and I am sure there are good historians on this board who can recommend several. I got started with Magnus Magnusson's "Scotland" but I've found others as good for the documentation they provide.

Advice? I am always full of it and have not the foggiest what I am saying most of the time. But, I'd say listen to those arguments, take notes, write down your questions and then come over here and ask the Scots historians. They will give you the facts so that you can then go back and say it straight.

Does that help? Last advice? Don't let them get you down. Everybody has an agenda to sell. You are listenting to agendas. Hazel

True Scotsman

The money that England offered Scotland for the Darien Scheme was another bribe so that they could get Scotland into a Union. There was also an Alien's Act which put pressure on Scotland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Act

________________________________
FREEDOM FOR SCOTLAND!!!!!!!!

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

Oh Hazel, thank you SO much! And to everyone else! I am very new at this, and didn't really plan to become a supporter of Scottish Independence as I am now. I always imagined being the regular ol' citizen who would vote yes should the time come, but through recent events ive found myself reading up Scottish history to become aware so I can defend Scotland, and myself really! I firmly believe in coming up with real, histroy/fact arguments to support myself, which has encouraged me to study Scottish histroy in detail...something I normaly would be afraid to do!

I am experiencing the downside of it now though, even here on this amazing forum, I get hurt when I hear people say bad things about Scotland, or speak against the idea of a free Scotland. But I am also learning how to deal with them, and to take it with stride instead of getting angry or sad.

For some time now ive had this beautiful idea of how to do my wee part to support Scotland and it's independence, and in a non-violent, non-argumentive way...with a witty tongue when called for! But more of an artistic expression in a peaceful manor, if that makes sense. What's great is all my studying on Scottish history will really benefit my idea greatly, as well as having this wonderful forum as a resource (with permission of course!). I could rant on about it, but I think it's better I let my mind ponder it a bit longer and when I actually have the website built and have something working i'll be sure to post it here so everyone can check it out and give me their input and suggestions!

What I can say is if Scottish histroy is not taught in schools in Scotland (I don't know for sure yet) I will definetly make sure my future children know their history. Of course, i'll make sure it's fun and interesting, more like story telling, then shoving it into their brains. Obviously if I did that they would see it as a negative thing and lose interest REAL fast. More like, they ask "why?" and i'll explain that time in history, and im sure the cureosity and interest will be enough. ^_^

Highlander

Highlander

Maol.Chaluim

A unionist with a poor grasp of Scottish history, there's a surprise...

Try sticking "Alien Act" in Google.

wisnaeme

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

Highlander

Highlander

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

Um....seriously Highlander, why are you here? Isn't there a Unionist forum somewhere? Or are you just trying to keep us on our toes? Your arguments are all the same because they translate to me "we are independent because we are in the United Kingdom" which makes no sense really. Independence means making your own decisions doesn’t matter if you are a country or a teenager. Personally, I am ready to end the "joint bank account" known as the Union and get Scotland in control of her future! Just me though!

Highlander

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

I am sorry but that really makes no sense at all. I did read how Scotland became part of the Union, I know the story, and it's pretty obvious Scotland didn't want it, especially with the bribe evidence. You are trying to say Scotland is Independent because the United Kingdom is independent. That's the same argument as "we are independent because we are the United Kingdom" !!! Really, all you have done here is ruffle everyone’s feathers. Like I said, it's respectable to have solid arguments and debates on the independence issue. But you haven't had any solid arguments, supporting evidence, or anything needed to make what you say worth reading. I don't know about you, but I am here to learn to speak for Scotland with honesty, respect, and knowledge of the issue.

Highlander

BonnieBlueFlag

Holding on to the Union is like holding on to the titanic. We were part of the greatest empire in history, but ITS OVER! Get over it. Look at the future, look at Europe! Small countries can make it and thrive, geo-politics and economics are changing, we arent living in 1707 anymore and we arent going to war with England every 5mins now. Why hold on to the past?

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

Highlander

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

Highlander

I know what it is but I don't believe you do. The people of Scotland are not a race. They may be culturally defined but we certainly are not a race and I don't like how you imply that we are.

Highlander

ProudToBeAScotsGirl

SLG

I wouldn't call the Scots a race, but then I don't really believe in race as a concept full stop. I would define the Scots as a nation and nationality with various distinct characteristics mainly cultural. As a whole population there will probably be some genetic features that distinguish Scots from other populations but I wouldn't go so far as to say that constitutes being a race. PTBASG, there's really no point arguing with Highlander as he chooses not to read your definition of race on cultural, geographical and historical grounds. Unless you are arguing based on the same definition then there is no point.

IF Convenor

I'd like to just say a few words about Darien (the Central American colony under discussion).

Darien was a brilliant idea. It is, after all, very similar to the Panama Canal, except the Darien idea was to transport the cargos overland and load them onto different ships at either end of the isthmus.

My main point about Darien is that it was a private enterprise and, while it certainly bankrupted many of its investors, it did not bankrupt Scotland itself. At the time of Union in 1707 Scotland had very low taxes and no significant national debt. England, on the other hand, was constantly fighting foreign wars and consequently had a massive national debt and high taxes. This is why the Act of Union deals almost exclusively with economic matters and is mainly concerned with compensating Scotland for the higher levels of debt and taxation it was to be subjected to after Union.

Remember, history is written by the victors so you need to investigate a bit for yourself rather than just accept what is written in popular history books.

Highlander

IF Convenor

At Darien???

wisnaeme

the bard of keppoch

if convenor,i did'nt know you were a lover of colonialism.

IF Convenor

I am not. What have I said to give such an impression?

Perhaps it was my statement that Darien was a brilliant idea? Let me clarify that; the idea of taking over somebody else's land and subjugating the population is not brilliant. Quite the opposite, in fact. What was brilliant was the idea behind the colony, the reason that particular place was chosen for a colony. The idea was to provide a shortcut between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans by transporting freight overland across the Isthmus of Panama. The idea would have worked and made everyone involved a great deal of money if it hadn't been sabotaged by foreign powers for their own ends. The proof that the idea would have been a great success is the existence and commercial success of the Panama Canal, which does the exact same job as the Darien Scheme intended, except entire ships are transported across the isthmus rather than just their cargo.

You have to look at history within the ethos of the time, and at the time of Darien it was acceptable to just grab land overseas and hold it by force of arms. I don't love or even support colonialism, I just accept it as part of our history which cannot be changed.

To repeat myself, I do not support colonialism and I do not like the idea of Scotland having had colonies, but the purpose of the Darien colony was a stroke of genius.

the bard of keppoch

convenor i just tippled what u meant by being a brilliant idea,the concept of transportation across land ? saving weeks of sailing round the horn. ive smoked to much skunk before reading this post

wisnaeme

SF102

From what i can see . . .we paid just over 7 grand for a bunch of rocks and some heather . . . .we was robbed

<~~~trots off into hiding

SLG

Give you your money back if you want?

Babygael

KMA SF

Wolf of Badenoch

IF Convenor

The balance of the Equivalent is still outstanding, so if anyone was doing the robbing, it wasn't the Scots.

SF102

IF, I'll have a word in tony's shell like when i see him next w/e an tell him whatya said Very Happy

i'm sure he'll koff up the readies . . . . Turkish Lira ok?

Pragmatic Pict

Don't Worry mate she has been brainwashed by the state like most people and its amazing the people who know the truth are clinging to the fringes on this island.

She is technically right but she thinks the Scottish public eagerly joined make her explain the Highland Resistance and its not jus the Jacobite cause but the right to lead your own life in your own glen. But no the fascist Pigs have to depopulate the highlands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'Se Alba tir mo ghraidh.

Some highlander you are btw. Is it a tory highlander by any chance. Laughing

Certain people tend to forget that we(Scotland) are a country. Independence will be when we are not being controlled by a goverment in a different country and if the the uk is 1 big happy country as u seem to think, why are we having this debate. Because the union is of no signiffigance any more, we dont need it. Lets all just go on our own paths.