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| darkside |
Labour using Orange bigotry against Scotlandhttp://scotlandonsunday.scotsman....der-mobilise-to-defend.5743358.jpTraquair's take: Excellent the ugly faces of British Nationalism rear their ugly heads with the most ardent defenders being the bigoted Orange Order and the BNP. They appear to be so brain dead they don't appear to realize that having them as opposition to Scottish independence only helps Scottish nationalism. In the case of the Orange Order it is of course rather ironic that their Northern Ireland power base is not even British they are just UKish which ends up with the farcical situation of a non-British organization being one of the biggest defenders of this indefensible Union. I wonder where they are going to get the funding for their marches of intimidation now that Glasgow City and the police are refusing to fund their bigoted & farcical stomping around town all in Orange. I can hardly imagine a better dream team for the SNP than the bigoted and sectarian Orangemen with the "disillusioned" and dwindling 'Scottish' Labour membership". If this is the best defenders of the Union independence is going to come even sooner than expected. ---------------------------------- After all, this is the same shower of clowns who threatened armed rebellion a few years ago if Scotland gained its Independence: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20010708/ai_n13960498/ Even though Labour don't think Ulster is British: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/u...-are-not-British-says-Labour.html Not that blatant hypocrisy from the British Unionist Labour Party should surprise any Scot. From Traquair again: "THE Orange Order has vowed to mobilise its 50,000 members in Scotland to oppose the SNP at the next general election and shore up the vote to retain the Union." Why wait until then, I think 'Scottish' Labour and their new Orange friends should arrange a series of marches all over Glasgow North East to promote the 'benefits' of the Union 
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| Alasdair |
Re: Labour using Orange bigotry against Scotland
I hadn't heard this before, and I know it's old, but it's fairly damning of the orange folk. |
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| William_Cleland |
There are so many dubious assertions in the original post that I find myself suffering from target confusion to a certain extent. I'll select two as being most worth pursuing, however. Firstly, have you ever heard of the concept of the "British Isles" (which was a name first used back in classical times by the ancient Greeks and Romans based on the use of the word Priteni for the Picts) and do you not grasp that the name Great Britain implies that there is a second smaller neighbouring British island along the lines of Great Cumbrae and Little Cumbrae in the Firth of Clyde? Secondly, where is the evidence that this is the "best the defenders of the Union" can come up with when cosying up to Labour is probably a ploy on the part of the LOL to try to stop moves by Labour politicians in Glasgow to cut back on the number of Orange walks and there is no indication in the newspaper article that this initiative on the part of the LOL was something that Labour invited them to do? | ||||||||||||||||
| William_Cleland |
Re: Labour using Orange bigotry against Scotland
Maybe you should ponder whether the reason you haven't heard it is because the story was in fact complete bollocks? The LOL still hold peaceful 12th of July celebrations in Rossnowlagh in Donegal every year almost a century after partition and are a legal organization in the RoI. Why would things be different in a Scottish context when there is no history of violence? |
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| Holebender |
First of all, the term Great Britain is used to distinguish the big island from Britain, a much smaller place. The term comes from France, where there is a region called Bretagne (we call it Brittany) with a Celtic population. Across the water from Bretagne there is a big island which had a Celtic population, so it got called Big Britain or Grande Bretagne in the local lingo. The stuff about the Northern Irish not being British comes from the Labour Party. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/u...-are-not-British-says-Labour.html I suggest you take the issue up with them. |
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| William_Cleland |
You do realise that the link posted by darkside is completely out of date don't you?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3154222.stm |
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| Holebender |
It may be out of date but it was the stated position of the Labour Party at the time.
Now, I hope you accept that the term "Great Britain" is used to distinguish it from Brittany, and does not imply that it is the larger of two islands. Ireland is not Little Britain. The British Isles could just as easily be called the Celtic Isles. |
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| William_Cleland |
I suggest you read the story more carefully rather than accepting darkside's spin on things.
A Labour Party spokesman said: "This submission was not seen nor endorsed by the Labour leadership before being submitted. This is correspondence between lawyers dwelling on a technical definition as part of a legal submission and was only seen by party officials. "The Labour Party leadership fully recognises the strong sense of Britishness felt by the majority of people in Northern Ireland who are, of course, subjects of the United Kingdom." When people willfully ignore quotes like this they are clearly completely blinded by political sectarianism and incapable of rational discussion. I now regret that my first post was an attempt to engage darkside in debate. That would be a waste of time. |
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| Holebender |
I'm sorry, but lawyers do not act on their own initiative. They follow their clients' brief. If lawyers acting on behalf of the Labour Party filed papers stating the Labour Party's position on a matter, I am finding it very hard to believe those papers weren't shown to their clients beforehand.
Labour denying something after it catches them out seems pretty much par for the course. Labour and deceit seem to go hand in hand. |
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| magister ludi |
Looks like Springburn is deteriorating into a straight fight between the OO and Opus. | ||||||||||||||||
| landg |
hahahahha. now that is good. no winners just half wits. |
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| Stevie |
Imagine the Labour party using Orange bigotry as a means to an end (despite the recent times past)... well of course they will, they've nought left but the Orange AND Green cards to play in Glasgow.
They are seen as pointless, corrupt and incompetent. Anybody got any other adjectifs? |
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| Dave Coull |
Yes, the name "British Isles" does imply there's more than one island involved in the British Isles. No, the name "Great Britain" has nothing to do with Ireland being "Little Britain". William the conqueror conquered England. From then on, for quite a few centuries, the ruling class of England spoke French. When they wanted a name for the whole island (handy when implying some sort of claim of overlordship of Scotland) there it was, Britain, or, in French, Bretagne (pronounced Brittannia, more or less). Unfortunately, this was already the name of a province on the French side of the Channel - Brittany, which is Bretagne in French, exactly the same word as Britain, and pronounced in exactly the same way. So, French speakers needed a way to distinguish the large island called Britain, which includes Scotland as well as England and Wales, from the province called Britain on the French side of the Channel. So they called it Grande Bretagne (and they still do). Later, when the ruling class of England learned how to speak English, they translated Grande Bretagne as Great Britain. But the real "Little Britain" is Brittany, not Ireland. |
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| William_Cleland |
The Brittany explanation is wikipedia level stuff i.e. widely believed in an urban legend sort of way but not necessarily accurate. Two things to ponder are the fact that in English there is actually no need to distinguish between Britain and Brittany and the modern usage of the term Great Britain actually only dates back as far as the reign of James VI & I, who pushed it as a way to unite Scotland and England. Given he was also king of Ireland at that point he is a lot more likely to have been fixated with the notion of incorporating the island of Ireland into his notion of a united "Britain" than on incorporating Brittany. The widespread use of "British Isles" eventually grew out of that notion of the three traditional Kingdoms of the archipelago collectively being British after all which was the original usage back in classical times. | ||||||||||||||||
| William_Cleland |
Where in the article is there any evidence that the Labour party have actually encouraged this? In Glasgow the Labour group on Glasgow's city council are currently actively considering a drastic cut back in the number of Orange walks and ABoD parades:- http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Anger-over-proposal-to-axe.5583474.jp http://www.heraldscotland.com/ora...ver-parades-claims-chief-1.916955 The comparisons between Northern Ireland and Glasgow have been pulled together by the city council to strengthen its case for a wholesale reduction in parades in the city. The authority claimed that, if anything, its figures are conservative. One senior council source said: "We now have a situation where we have more parades in Glasgow than in the two largest cities in Northern Ireland put together. "Given that the history and ideology that underpin this entire tradition are so closely linked to that part of the world that is simply absurd. "This demonstrates exactly why there needs to be a serious reduction in parades - and also why the organisations that march in Glasgow need to show a bit of perspective and be proactive in that process. "When the Apprentice Boys of Derry march five times as often in Glasgow as they do in Derry, there can be absolutely no argument that things are out of hand. "If Londonderry has fewer than 20 parades, why would Glasgow need hundreds?" The most likely explanation is that the LOL are very keen to be seen as a political asset by the Labour party right now to try to forestall this. |
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| Dave Coull |
Consider it purely on logical grounds, William. In English, the word "Britain" is, and was, quite sufficient for describing the large island which includes the mainland of Scotland as well as England and Wales. However, it is a fact that, in French, "Brittany" and "Britain" are exactly the same word, "Bretagne". It is a fact that, hundreds of years ago, important French folk would have been far more used to having dealings with the French province of that name than with the bigger Britain. Oh, they were quite used to having dealings with England - Angleterre. William of Normandy had a claim to the throne of England, after all. But Angleterre was not the same thing as Bretagne. It would only have been when they started to feel the need for a word to describe the whole island which includes Ecosse as well as Angleterre and Pays des Galles that a problem arose. How to distingish the bigger Britain from the province they were more used to, the province which some of them (including the ancestors of the Stuart monarchs of Scotland, and of Britain) came from? The answer was simply to refer to "large" Britain, Grande Bretagne. When this was subsequently translated into English, it was as "great" Britain. It wasn't really a mis-translation, because the meaning of "great" in English has changed over the centuries, originally it just meant "large", like "grande" in French. You yourself, William, mentioned Great Cumbrae and Little Cumbrae in the firth of Clyde, but there are many other such examples, for instance, the villages of Great Coates and Little Coates in Lincolnshire. So originally the "Great" in "Great Britain" wouldn't have implied any claim to "greatness" in an imperialistic sense.
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| Dave Coull |
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| Holebender |
The Concise Dictionary of World Place Names, published by Oxford University Press, gives this definition of the origin of the term.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O209-GreatBritain.html |
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| mairead |
Thought this thread was something to do with the Orange Order and labour, not what Britain or the British Isles means. | ||||||||||||||||
| Dave Coull |
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| William_Cleland |
Certain people are unable to come up with any arguments to counter the other points I have made in this thread but rather than using that as a starting point for an intelligent and rational discussion exploring the core subject matter they have instead argued about one minor detail because they probably have an emotional need to engage in some sort of territorial/tribal type of response. Par for the course on messageboards about Scottish politics unfortunately. As for the LOL any time their antics lead to all kinds of mayhem on the internet with various people of all political stripes losing their mental faculties I always find a trip down memory lane with The Portadown News website provides a bit of light relief:- http://www.portadownnews.com/06Jul01.htm |
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| Aventinian |
Re: Labour using Orange bigotry against Scotland
Only if you accept that the most 'ardent' defenders of Scottish nationalism are the SNLA, SnG and the other racists. As for the Orange Order, most of the people who I find calling them bigots with so little thought are bigots themselves.
Don't be so bloody stupid, of course Northern Ireland is British. Are you really that ill-educated? Who the hell is Tranquir anyway?
Who said they'd vote Labour? -----------
No it wasn't. If was almost undoubtedly an oversight which I should imagine only a couple of party officials so much as glanced at. Factually though, they are right - people from Northern Ireland are not British subjects, just as people from Great Britain are not either. They are British citizens. The two terms have different meanings in law.
Indeed, except of course they aren't. |
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| Holebender |
The point about the British Isles was to indicate that they are not a group of Islands called Britain this and Britain that, but a group of islands which were inhabited by Celtic peoples who were loosely termed Britons.
And well done for spotting that they are not actually called the Celtic Isles. Nothing much escapes you, does it? |
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| landg |
Re: Labour using Orange bigotry against Scotland
exactly, but such facts are ignored and swept away into the shortbread tin. |
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| Stevie |
Re: Labour using Orange bigotry against Scotland
What proof have you they are racists? Moreover the caucasians are the same race aren't they, so how can they be racist?
The Orangemen I've met are bigoted indeed. What so little thought am I putting into it. |
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| Corby Boy |
I agree Stevie.
I can't believe posters on this board are potentially denying that Orangemen are bigots. Their whole raison d'etre is wrapped up in bigotry. Many unionists can see that (not just nationalists), even if you guys can't. Their leadership may try and paint an air of respectability to the organisation, but many of their followers and members are bigots pure and simple, and I have met enough of them to understand that is the case. |
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| darkside |
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| Aventinian |
Re: Labour using Orange bigotry against Scotland
That they have made multiple racist statements. Take the SNLA - they seek to reverse English immigration to Scotland, and indeed threatened to poison English water supplies.
In case you haven't noticed, the sort of racial classifications you are still entertaining are scientifically bunk these days. Are you seriously suggesting a white man cannot be racist towards an Indian because they are both considered members of the caucasian group? It is widely accepted what racism means, and it does not simply apply to the arbitrary racial classification you suggest. To take the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination as an example, it states: 'the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.'
I'm sure you'll miss the irony, but to me at least it's very amusing.
Nope, the name 'Britain' - or at least its early versions - were originally given to the island group by the Greeks.
Since subtlety certainly does seem to escape you, I should point out that my point was that your suggestion was absolute nonsense. What something 'could be' called is irrelevant: indeed, it 'could be' called anything. |
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| William_Cleland |
OK, how about two guys from Belfast (originally) that I know. Both Linfield and Rangers supporters, one is still active in the LOL while the other still goes to see the walk every 12th of July, both are married to Roman Catholics. Bigots? |
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| landg |
Re: Labour using Orange bigotry against Scotland[quote="StevieThe Orangemen I've met are bigoted indeed. What so little thought am I putting into it.[/quote] well, your putting very little thought into into IF you say all orangemen are bigots because everyone you have met is bigotted. the floor is yours. looking forwARD TO YOUR RESPONSE. every organisation and school of thought has it's bigots and racists and ultrahardliners. that inclused scottish nationalist's, the orange order and opus dei. |
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| Corby Boy |
Cmon William, there are always exceptions and I am sure the guys you refer to are decent folk.
But in my experience the Orangemen I have met - Purple Star of Corby flutemen, are total bigots who always trotted out anti-catholic bile. One disowned his own daughter for marrying a catholic Celtic supporter who originated from the same part of Glasgow. Why do they insist marching past Catholic churches and housing estates banging their drums as loud as can be! You'd have to be naiive to say its not bigoted. |
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| William_Cleland |
You can't have it both ways Corby Boy. If you are willing to concede that there are exceptions then I think you should follow that through to its logical conclusion and refrain from dealing with an entire group of people through a crude set of stereotypes which demonises them.
Some SNP supporters are rabidly anti-English and can reasonably be described as bigots but it would be completely unfair to imply that all SNP supporters are like that. Some Orangemen... |
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| Dave Coull |
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| Corby Boy |
You can use the exceptions rule for all organisations. To compare the Orange institutions to the SNP though is a poor comparison.
OO - in itself celebrates Protestant supremacy and hegemony in Ireland over catholics by definition therefore being anti-catholic in doctrine. Bigotry IMO. The last time I looked, the SNP are a secular political party open to ALL. They don't seem to cause an increase in crime and stabbings everytime they gather unlike the Orange marches. |
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| Corby Boy |
I don't deny the OO's right to march and freedom of expression. And it would be nice to believe that on the whole they're a noble organisation.
The perception which is reality, is that it far from the above. It is a cynical move and one which will probably back fire if Labour wish to get in bed with the Orange institutions. |
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| William_Cleland |
Perception and reality don't always neatly coincide. Beyond that there is no indication in the article linked in the original post that Labour invited the LOL to publicly back them.
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman....der-mobilise-to-defend.5743358.jp Both Labour and the Conservatives yesterday insisted they had never discussed election strategy with the order. But Labour in particular is expected to struggle to mobilise its often disillusioned membership, officially just under 20,000, to fight off the SNP challenge next year. One insider said the party, which has a strong base among west coast Catholics, would be reluctant to turn down practical support from "a disciplined and easily mobilised force" like the order, but would be even more reluctant to acknowledge help from such a quarter .... A spokesman for Labour said he was unaware of any Orange Order support for the party, in Glenrothes or since. He said: "We welcome support from people of all faiths who agree with our policies. "Individual MPs and MSPs speak regularly to church and religious organisation on matters of concern to them when lobbied by such organisations. "However, we have had absolutely no discussions whatsoever with the Orange Order, or any other organisation, about our election strategy." |
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| Holebender |
The phrase "weasel words" springs immediately to mind. |
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| Stevie |
Hardly a noble organisation : they would love to hunt every catholic out of the British isles if they could.
It's unpleasant when the Orange order march through a town (with their stupid bowler hats and stupid long gaudy evening dresses) and pretend to themselves that they have created a little 'catholic free zone' for the day. I understand their attitude towards catholicism (actually there is no God but that seems to be irrelevant) but it is what it is. Who would the Orangemen hate more : an aetheist or a catholic. It's pathetic that the Labourites are scraping so low as to inflame such sectarian hatred. |
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| mairead |
I have always believed, and with very good reason, that the Loyal Orange order are very bigotted towards Catholics. I am not RC myself but I despise the bigotry displayed by the Orangemen and women. Even their children spout abuse and hatred on marches. | ||||||||||||||||
| Fidget |
..and probably wear Rangers football tops/strips. | ||||||||||||||||
| Stevie |
Thankyou WC, I just skimmed the article.
The Labour party are happy to embrace the bigots of the Orange shade of things who I doubt will shake Labour out of its vegetable torpor and clearly in turn they will alienate their traditional catholic support. Actually, it's frankly disgusting from a 'left-wing party' (ha ha ha) to freely rejoice in support from a bigoted bunch like the OO. And if I may add, intellectually I understand the hatred but I don't really get it; in this day and age its pathetic and ridiculous. Oh, they may gain 50,000 OO votes but how many Labour voters (non-catholic) will they lose? Some people who vote Labour do so because of principal... Get into bed with the devil and don't be surprised if he does your ass. The comedy is not ended, it's only just begun. What must our newly joined American cousin Kevin be making of this. Don't worry Kevin, I don't understand this sectarianism either. |
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| Rinty |
I think that this debate suffers from what, to me, is a basic lack of history or understanding of the Labour Party and the OO in Scotland. It is Glasgowcentric (or lanarkcentric) to describe the LP as drawing their support from catholics. Where I live, the key figures in the labour movement have almost all been protestant, many of them also Orangemen, including my local councillor.
I have a very close friend who could be described as a 'leading' orangeman. He was surprised to read about this and says that it wasnt discussed at regional or district level. Orangemen in my area campaign and vote for Labour anyway so it wont make much difference. |
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| Stevie |
I take yur point and would have thought as much anyway but tell that to the catholics at the next election when they hear that the OO is fighting for Labour officially. I don't think they'll like it one little bit.
Labour can drop the pretence and stop using red now. I thought they would move to purple or just plain old GB tie colour blue but what is the colour you get when you mix red with orange? |
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| Stevie |
Today's GB tie (on Sky News) is a deep blue with light blue diagonal Stripes.
A tasteful Tory if ever there was one. |
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| William_Cleland |
For what seems like the umpteenth time there was absolutely no evidence in the article that Labour solicited this support from the LOL and want to be associated with them in any way. Why is it so difficult for people on here to grasp something as blindingly obvious as that? I can tell you that elsewhere on the internet on a board that Orangemen use in significant numbers most people seem to think this unilateral move by the LOL will actually help the SNP and some are even questioning whether the game is finally up where the Union is concerned, for what it's worth. Bear in mind that Jack McConnell was perceived as very much following the agenda of the "Murphia" at Holyrood and Glasgow city council has been talking about a 90% cut in Orange walks and ABOD parades in recent weeks so this is a truly desperate course of action for the LOL. As an organization rooted primarily on the role of the British Monarchy within Anglicanism they have even bigger problems elsewhere, however:- http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/eur...rch/index.html?section=cnn_latest The Vatican said Tuesday it has worked out a way for groups of Anglicans who are dissatisfied with their faith to join the Catholic Church. The Vatican says more Anglicans have expressed an interest in joining the Catholic Church. The process will enable groups of Anglicans to become Catholic and recognize the pope as their leader, yet have parishes that retain Anglican rites, Vatican officials said. The move comes some 450 years after King Henry VIII broke from Rome and created the Church of England, forerunner of the Anglican Communion. http://www.christiantoday.com/art...th.multifaith.coronation/8135.htm Despite calls from Christian leaders that Prince Charles should be a defender of 'the' faith, reports indicate that the heir to the throne has made it clear he wants to be crowned King in a multi-faith coronation service in a dramatic break with tradition. The Prince of Wales is said to have decided that the Christian service in Westminster Abbey must be followed by a separate ceremony involving religious leaders from other faiths. Held in the ancient Westminster Hall inside the Palace of Westminster, the service would attempt to give room to Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh beliefs as well as other Christian denominations. Prince Charles believes reforms to the coronation are vital to reflect the changes in British society that have taken place since the Queen was crowned in 1953, according to a report in this week's Spectator magazine. But the Evangelical Alliance, which represents over one million Evangelical Christians in the UK, is calling for him to swear the traditional coronation oath to be 'Defender of the Faith' - specifically the Anglican Church. Normally I have very little time for Tom Devine as I see him as being closer to being a sectarian propagandist than a serious academic but he's right about the LOL being in terminal decline. The LOL are at least 50 years past their sell by date in ideological terms, in my opinion, given the RC church is very different from what was in place before the Second Vatican Council and carry on in ever dwindling numbers (with the occasional dead cat bounce) through force of habit more than anything else. As for people calling all Orangemen bigots, people on here would do well to remember that secessionist movements like the SNP are viewed as being dangerous extremists by many people as well and that very crude and simplistic stereotypes are often used to describe all forms of nationalism. People on this board may remember my arguments with Agentmancuso about that. Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - Albert Einstein |
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| mairead |
If labour get into bed with the Orange Order then I hope every Catholic in the country will not vote for them and hopefully give the SNP their vote instead. | ||||||||||||||||
| Stevie |
In essence my intellect agrees with Einstein, yet my desire for an independent Scotland overrides intellect and manifests itself politically in a desire for my homeland to become a nation again. The economic arguments are important yet I don't wish Scotland to be independent just so I can earn a buck or two. Again, Einstein is right but we're not talking that kind of nationalism. We're talking here about the reestablishment of a previously existing nation state. We're also not talking about enlarging our frontiers because we think we're better than anyone else. I don't believe Einstein would have viewed us too unkindly... |
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| Dave Coull |
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| Alasdair |
Perhaps, but I think it would be stretching things a bit if we were to imply the support of a long dead foreign science bloke 
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| Dave Coull |
I totally agree! But all I was actually doing was countering an apparent attempt to imply the support of the aforementioned long dead foreign science bloke for Unionism, which I considered to be stretching things a bit......
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| Stevie |
It's hard to say because a lot of catholics support Labour and the Labour vote is possibly going to be apathetic and the Labour voters might just stay at home. In any case that can't be bad. |
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| landg |
one is as likely as the other. |
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| William_Cleland |
People appear to be blinded by Nationalist vs Unionist tribalism on here at times. Did you really not read this phrase in my post? ....and that very crude and simplistic stereotypes are often used to describe all forms of nationalism. I was using Einstein's quote as an example of a very crude and simplistic stereotype and was therefore disagreeing with him in much the same manner that I used to disagree with Agentmancuso on this board where the nature of nationalism is concerned back in his Lib Dem days. The implication was that people who are regularly on the receiving end of that kind of treatment probably shouldn't be so quick to behave like that towards another group of people. As for Einstein and his quote, as a German from a Jewish background who fled the Nazis I think it's understandable that he didn't take a nuanced approach to the question of nationalism. He was too close to the subject in emotional terms to be able to view it with the rational intellectual detachment that he had during his physics research. |
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| magister ludi |
Nicely put. History shows quite conclusively that nationalism has its dark side. More than that, within europe (in the geographical sense) I can think of no nationalist movements (of any significance) where that wasn't true. Of course outside europe, this generalisation about nationalism need not apply. Take India for example; for all the difficulties and imperfections in the process of achieving independence ( I'm thinking here of the quite inhumane effects of partition in the north) it has not turned out as a fascist dictatorship. And there are plenty of other examples; what they all seem to me to have in common is that they were not located within the geographical region of europe. Now I don't believe that geographical position on the face of the planet or whatever was responsible for "european" nationalists becoming fascists or nationalism taking on regressive and oppressive sinister hues, no, in my view there were other influencing factors. firstly there is earlier feudal nature of europe and secondly the fact that the independence/nationalist movements in parts of the world that were outside europe developed in colonies/protectorates and the like ie subject nations. These influences pulled in opposite directions. In post feudal europe nationalism was powerfully pulled towards the regressive; in post colonial nations nationalism was equally powerfully pulled towards the progressive. The distinction between regressive and progressive nationalism is crucial I believe. ( here I accept of course that I may be accused of being guilty of creating a post hoc rationalisation to alleviate cognitive dissonance.....but then I'd tell you that's psycho-babble!) |
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| calum |
Brittany in Gaelic is similarly 'A' Bhreatainn Bheag'. Though i was aware that the Bretons there came from Wales first, sometime after the first wave of Celts from Iberia.
Nevertheless, the OO and Opus Dei are scum. |
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