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| Mctosh45 |
Letter to the Herald.An informative and informed read.........http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/77892.htmlOne for the unionists to cogitate over  
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| Mctosh45 |
Hope this link works properly, http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/77892.html | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| George |
Yes, I read the letter this morning and immediately wondered how the hell anyone could still insist that staying in the Union benefits Scotland. Letters like this should be copied and posted through ever letterbox in Scotland in the days before the May 3rd election. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Highlander |
Well I live in Scotland and the average male life expectancy in Scotland is certainly above 70. So since I know that number 70 to be false how can I believe any other numbers in this piece. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Mctosh45 |
Because your a unionist of the closed mind variety? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/press/news2005/0204le-press.html It's 74. Which is perfectly acceptable considering the habits of some of our population. It's a bare-faced lie from the writer; that figure can be checked so easily I'm amazed he thought he'd do anything more than undermine himself.
Don't talk nonsense. If some idiot is going to write in the Herald and throw figures around that are little more than complete bullshit then he deserved to be treated with the utmost scepticism. Really, do try to engage your brain before your prejudices kick in. Statements like this: "The economic opportunities, and the best oil-related jobs, were snapped up by London and the south-east, where control of our industry lay, and they didn't notice. " Are entirely without basis. We have plenty of highly paid and skilled jobs in Scotland, it is our native underclass that are the worry and the ones whose extremes are dragging down statistics for us. Equally, the SNP's position is entirely contradictory - first they want to have an oil fund, investing it for future generations. Equally they promise to increase spending in many significant and expensive areas, yet by their own figures the Scottish Executive (at the very best) still only just make the books balance - AND that of course includes the total oil revenues generated within the said figures. They're useless on the economy, just like everything else. |
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| Mctosh45 |
So Aventinian,
You know better than someone who works in the oil industry and has done for over thirty years? |
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| Aventinian |
No, but typically I don't trust bare-faced liars with a political agendum. |
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| IF Convenor |
All the best jobs in the UK oil industry are in London. No question.
Just imagine Norway allowing all the oil companies to set up their headquarters in Stockholm! The oil companies are in London, not because that's where their assets are but because that's where the government is. They need to be close to government so they are in London. BTW, this is my 29th year in the oil industry. |
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| George |
Life expectancy in Scotland has increased from 69.3 years for males and 75.5 years for females born in the period 1981-83 to 74.2 years and 79.2 years respectively for those born in 2003-05, so yes, if he states that life expectancy throughout Scotland is below 70 then he is wrong.
To quote the gentleman: ....of all the countries of Western Europe, only in Scotland is male life expectancy below 70 years... However, I believe that his point may have been that Scotland had the only major region in Western Europe to have a life expectancy below 70....Glasgow. Also, I believe at the last survey 8 out 10 U.K. regions with the lowest life expectancy were in Scotland. I may be wrong of course in interpreting his point, but the 8 out of 10 statistic is still appalling. Of course the infamous (non) Unionist and chum have unsurprisingly used a supposed error, which may be a misinterpretation on their part, in order to label the author a liar and ignore the central theme of the letter. Easier to do that than address the points raised. |
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| Mctosh45 |
Arguing for the status quo is wrong in so many ways.
Forget oil what about our falling and aging population. What about 25,000 young Scots leaving per annum to find work other than low (SLAVE) wage service sector jobs. What about our inability to decide who, where, what, how and why we trade with worldwide. I could go on 
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| mal |
They're useless on the economy, just like everything else.[/quote]
In your opinion 
I look at the SNP as a means to an end,after Independence you vote for whom you think runs the country to your way of thinking,lot different from the way we do things now in a UK context is it?
Interesting dabate in my pub regarding inheritence tax,my Daily Mail reading buddies were arguing about the threshold for this, blaming labour for not increasing the threshold so that people who had worked all their lives should not be penalised,fair doos think i and came out with the suggestion that they should scrap it altogether. This didn`t go down well as that would mean the very rich wouldn`t have to pay anything,when asked what level it should be set at. the response was £100,000 above what they thought their estate was worth ,typical selfish tory twats,it`s ok for somone to pay it,but not them! Most tax liability is now based on property prices having rocketed in the past 10 years,the market has dictated this,now if the labour government are absolute economy wreckers how has this situation came about? The labour party were novices at governing when they were elected,why is the SNP tarred with a "useless" brush when there are no facts to back this up?. Good old smear tactics eh? |
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| Economist |
I'd like to know when the SNP were last in power, so that Aventinian can classify them as being "useless on the economy, like everything else". The problem for the SNP, is they are an unknown quantity. OK they may run Angus and Falkirk Council pretty well, but they don't have any "skeletons" like Labour and the Tories do.
We could start with a few facts, however. Both the Tories and Labour have been in control of Scotland's economy at various points over the last 20 years. From the evidence both those parties have been, I'd say, "useless" at running Scotland's economy and just about everything else. Economy - stagnant. Population - stagnant etc. The only thing that has grown in Scotland, under them, is the public sector. The figures speak for themselves. I'll be bold and hazard a guess that the majority of the population would agree with this. After all, all parties are guilty of saying one thing and doing another, and I doubt the SNP will break that tradition, as it is the nature of politics. It will be interesting to see their costed "manifesto" (which we don't yet have)
We have many high skilled jobs in Scotland, but we don't have enough. That is a significant part of our problems - even the "useless" Scottish Executive have just about cottoned on to this fact. We could have more - a lot more - partly due to the fact we have one of the best educated populations' in Europe. If we did, then you and I would both notice the difference. |
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| Highlander |
Nope the author of that letter quite clearly states that Scotland's male life expectancy is below 70 when it clearly is not. Their is no misinterpretation on my part. So as I said before, the author has got that number so clearly wrong, what other numbers are wrong in that letter? I also like your misquoting of the letter. Well done;
Missed that all important "STILL" before the "70 years" part, well done. Alter the quote to make it say what you want hey, excellent, I like your style.
Well luckily these companies didn't do what Norway didn't do either, instead the companies set up their headquarters in internationally-recognised-sovereign-state-capital to be close to the government. |
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| George |
There is a possibility of misinterpretation......only a possibility. The author states that only IN Scotland life expectancy is (still) below 70 years, he may have been referring to Glasgow. The letter may have been badly drafted or edited. However even if the author has made a mistake on that point we are still in the bottom two for life expectancy of all the major western countries for both male and female. You ask what other numbers are wrong, well what if the answer to that question is none? Would you then concede that the Union is failing Scotland on a grand scale?
My apologies for the mis-quote, it was unintentional. I don't think that the meaning was altered in any way though......you've gone a bit overboard there.
I'm genuinely confused here, didn't IF Convener make this same point in order to rebutt Aventinians claim that quality jobs hadn't gone South? |
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| IF Convenor |
[quote="Highlander"]
Duh! That's the whole point; if Scotland had had the nous to become independent those company headquarters would have been in Scotland and so would the economic benefits. If Scotland becomes independent those companies will pull out of London (or at least considerably downsize their operations there) and relocate to Scotland. I suppose you prefer all that benefit going to London? |
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| Highlander |
The only possible misinterpretation that can be done is by assuming what Scotland means other than Scotland. You seem to like equating Scotland to Glasgow for this piece to get your point across but yet Scotand is not Glasgow. The point of Glasgow having a lower than regional average is pointless as the author is not talking about Glasgow but Scotland as a whole. There will be a number of areas of Europe where the life expectancy will be lower than the national average.
Of course I do. It is the capital and headquarters are formed in capitals. It isn't a foreign capital (as much as you might argue for change) it is the U.K. capital. |
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| IF Convenor |
If I'm reading the figured in the Government's actuarial data correctly (http://www.gad.gov.uk/Life_Tables/Historical_Interim_life_tables.htm) males born before 1984 in Scotland have a life expectancy of under 70 years. As all today's 70-year-olds were born before 1984 I think you could easily make a case for saying life expectancy for the whole of Scotland today is less than 70 years. It is also true that there are people being born in Scotland today who still have a life expectancy of under 70 years.
Putting that aside, the author of the letter identified himself as a civil engineer, not an actuarian or whatever the profession would be called, so a mistake outside his area of expertise does not mean the data which falls within his expertise should be suspect. |
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| IF Convenor |
So, Highlander, you are happy to see the headquarters of whisky manufacturers in London, paying their taxes in London and having their profits treated as part of London's rather than the Highlands' GDP? You do understand that that is what happens and leads to all sorts of false stories going around that Scotland's subsidised? Much of Scotland's hard work in many industries (including oil and whisky) is falsely reported as being performed in London because that's where the profits are reported.
And you "of course" prefer that to be the case. It's written for all to see two posts above this one. I suppose in whatever line of work you are in you are happy to have others take the credit for your achievements? |
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| Highlander |
You do undestand what an average is? Yes? And who would have thought that there are people born yesterday, today or tomorrow that will not live to see there 70th birthday. That is an outstanding piece of information. Thank you for telling me people may contract incurable disease and that they may have accidents. I never knew until you said.
An average Scottish person born today will on average see a few years past their 70th birthday. So that claim of today is pointless And also if we used your version of life expectancy I think you will find it hard to find a country in western Europe that would not have a similar life expectancy for the people born before 1984. |
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| George |
For me this the saddest statement I have yet seen on this forum, it genuinely doesn't anger me but I believe it demonstrates a level of brainwashing and acceptance similar to that shown by religious fundamentalists. |
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| IF Convenor |
Very well, Highlander, there are areas of Scotland today where the average male life expectancy at birth today is under 70 years. Satisfied? Happy to live in a country with such a shameful health record?
I notice you did not answer my question about being happy to see others credited with your achievements. Of course, maybe you don't have any achievements of your own to be proud of. |
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| IF Convenor |
I find myself agreeing with you, George. I have rarely seen such an obvious case of self-loathing. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
It's amazing how a statement of fact can be called brainwashing by the narrow-minded.
I wouldn't be surprised to find the same statement could be made about other country on earth. If he really wanted to be this ridiculously sensationalist, the writer could've pointed out that in some places in Scotland the average life expectancy is under 60.
It's not a misinterpretation, it's the obvious literal meaning of his statement. If you decide to interpret 'in Scotland' as that, then I'm sure I can point to very distinct regions of England where the life expectancy is less than 30: admittedly in the middle of a children's hospital! It's either very, very poor research or a lie.
So instead of London, have some of them centralised in Edinburgh? Switching one city for another.
Last time I checked, the population was growing. Anyway, an ageing population is inevitable in a society with good healthcare. We can't increase the population indefinitely.
Yet even being poor in Scotland involves living a life of quite considerable luxury.
What? No one can be forced to enter into any sort of contract by force under the law of Scotland
Really? There was me thinking I was speaking as a representative of the Royal Society of Opinionated People.
The labour party were novices at governing when they were elected,why is the SNP tarred with a "useless" brush when there are no facts to back this up?.[/quote] The Labour Government were hailed in their first term as performing very well in terms of the economy; Gordon Brown probably still is considered one of the best chancellors in history. This was, as you may recall, a result of simply continuing with Tory economic plans. I tar the SNP with the useless brush because they made promises they can't keep. As far as being cheeky on the promises front, the SNP have far surpassed any party I can remember.
As was clear from my post, I based this assertion on their policies - which are quite clear.
Don't you think our education, despite its levels, is fairly inappropriate to what employers require? |
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| Highlander |
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| Mctosh45 |
HIGHLANDER, British to the end............Hopefully your end will not be long in coming and not too painful for you? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
Spare us the tribalist clap-trap. A couple of statements of plain common sense and you're up in arms because it doesn't fit with your political viewpoint. I suppose this is what it means to be a fundamentalist. |
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| macwea |
Oil Company HeadquartersJust to clarify folks, particularly for the information of Highlander and Aventinian, in Norway the major oil companies have their headquarters based in Stavanger, not Oslo!Therefore I would assume that in an independent Scotland the oil companies will be based in Aberdeen, where they obviously already have a presence, not Edinburgh. |
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| Mctosh45 |
Thats right Aventinian you close your eyes to the situation and deny the inevitable
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| George |
It wasn't a statement of fact, he gave a preference for all oil benefit going to London, I said that to me this demonstrated brainwashing and acceptance of a religious fundamentalist nature....you're struggling on this thread aren't you?
Yes, but is it acceptable that we are in the bottom two for both male and female amongst the major West European Countries and 8 of the 10 worst regions of the UK are Scottish?
It's possible, that's all I am saying. If you can show a region of England where the life expectancy is below 70 then you will have proven your point. And no, a hospital doesn't count I'm afraid, it has to be an area for which these figures are officially recorded.
But wait.....that will mean high salaried quality jobs in Scotland with the undoubted knock on effect. Revenues raised will be credited to Scotland......Unionist scaremongering regarding fiscal deficits destroyed!!
What is the long term trend with regard to births and deaths? and over how long do you think that measurements begin to show the real trend?
When you become obnoxious like this I know that it is a sign that you realise that your arguments are weak.
And how do you know what effect the SNP'spolicies will have on the economy of Scotland?
No, our economy is poor.........a disproportionate number of people have to leave for a decent career, anyway who is in charge of our education? |
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| IF Convenor |
It's the part where he says "of course" he prefers the benefits to go to London which is the sad self-loathing part, not the obvious statement of fact that the benefits do go to London. As George has already stated, I'd sooner the well paid jobs and careers were located in Scotland, even if they're in Edinburgh, than in another country. Also, Edinburgh and Aberdeen are so close that I imagine a lot of companies will tend to consolidate all their operations in Aberdeen. It's easy to attend a meeting in Edinburgh from Aberdeen, far easier than it is to attend a meeting in London from there. |
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| Economist |
What tax and spend? How does Gordon's handling of the Scottish economy perform? The last "technical recession" in Scotland was in 2002. That's pretty bad in anyone's book. Whose fault was that Gordon's? Or the the fault of the Union?
You can't call them "useless" on the economy, when they haven't demonstrated their handling of it! You can't even call their policies "useless" when we've no evidence of how they'd work out. In short you can't use useless in the context which you seek to do.
Nope. It is very appropriate. A lot of things are very appropriate too (fiscal regime, infrastructure etc). Businesses look at the whole spectrum. Why do so many Scots emigrate - not through choice - but purely to find decent jobs? That is a damning indictment of our country (Scotland, that is) I've a lot of friends with good qualifications, work experience and fantastic skills who cannot find skilled jobs in their field - and end up working somewhere else - jobs that there should be in Scotland.
What +21,000 in 2004 and +16,000 in 2005? That's pathetic! That is not population growth at a level to sustain the population, let alone the economy. Take a look at this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Scotpop1.PNG Scotland's population from 1981. That graph, by any measure is an absolute disaster. It starts at 5,180,000 in 1981, but compare that with 1974 when Scotland's population was over 5,200,000. By rights, even with moderate population growth since then, we could expect to have a population heading towards 5.5m people. Alas, we don't, war zones and eastern European countries are the only places with a population profile like that. We have had about 6 years of population growth in the last quarter century, ergo we haven't had a growing population in Scotland. We don't have enough people. And George is right, deaths are higher than births - the population is not even replacing itself. We don't have enough people in Scotland, that is the problem.
Hugh Henry *leaves country*
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| IF Convenor |
English will still outlive Scots even in year 2050
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=15392007 Makes you proud, doesn't it? |
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| wisnaeme |
Thank you for that posting, "I F Convenor". I would be very interested in a comment of the above from the unionist cabal. Yerself included, "Utility Highlander". |
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| Mctosh45 |
A bloody travesty wrapped up as a union dividend
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| Highlander |
Well it is not their fault that they choose to live healthier lifestyles than the Scots. |
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| Mctosh45 |
So....on every economic indicator, every health indicator and every social indicator the union is failing Scotland.........and yet you still want union......what mentality is this in our midst? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
No, the present-day neo-Socialist politics are failing Scotland - and the SNP has the exact same political position as the Labour Party on virtually everything bar Nationalism and nuclear weapons and power. Equally the Scottish people are failing themselves. It's not the fault of the government or the constitution that certain people are choosing to drink, smoke, eat and stab themselves to death. That's their own f***ing fault and to be frank, I will not be told it's my responsibility in any way, shape or form.
Yes, but for reason of fact. His next sentence is not inconsequential to that statement: "Of course I do. It is the capital and headquarters are formed in capitals. It isn't a foreign capital (as much as you might argue for change) it is the U.K. capital." While I am sure you know Highlander's position on the Union, he does not use it in this argument. In fact, it's one that transcends polarised politics and is more of an economic commentary. As such, it does not represent a Unionist view, he even makes allowances for you and your ilk with the bracketed section. What more do you want? |
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| Aventinian |
I think it's acceptable because it is not my, or the government's, responsibility. If the good people of Glasgow decided to start eating well, exercising more and the like we could have the highest life expectancies in the UK. They choose not to however.
Done: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3172229.stm LOWEST MALE LIFE EXPECTANCY Glasgow - 68.7 Manchester - 69.8 Inverclyde - 70.3
I'm sure if someone is diddling the figures, they'll find ways to diddle them further. However, to be frank, GERS can say what it likes, it doesn't interest me at all. I'm more worried about actual politics - governing our country morally and effectively.
A fair point, I suppose. But, as I said, you can only consider a growing population as positive for so long. This is a vastly over-populated planet, after all
I don't see how that is obnoxious. Even the poorest in Scottish society, so long as they're not drug addicts, immigrants in political limbo or the sort that really shouldn't be caring for themselves (my rants on mental health care provision are for another day) still can afford a considerably grand life. They have all (indeed, too much) the food they could desire, they have expensive luxuries like refrigerators, televisions and so forth considered practically as essentials, and a huge uptake in other luxury services like sky or cable television, computer games, cigarettes, alcohol. Really, it'd put a Roman emperor to shame.
I am making an educated guess. Do we have to get into a debate on Consequentialism?
The government, and I think they've made a right arse-up of it myself. Good polytechnics have been turned into piss-poor universities in the name of some sort of social advancement (by the Tories no less; a poor move) and selective education has been done away with. If I was running a business at the moment, I'd be very annoyed with the standard of education in Britain today. Having to waste my time trying to find out if applicants to a degree-level job have basic literacy and numeracy is not my idea of fun. |
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| Aventinian |
That smiling thing button seems to be your only response these days.
That's because, generally speaking, the English are not living on a diet of deep-fried Mars bars, 'chibbings' and 40 cigarettes a day. |
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| IF Convenor |
Have you ever been to North America, Aventinian? Ever seen American Aboriginals (First Nation, American Indians, Natives, take your pick) drunk and out of work on the streets? Ever seen similar chronic problems with Australian Aborigines, Maoris, etc.? Do you think they are all feckless, to blame for their appalling health and employment records, or do you think there is some underlying cause?
Most people acknowledge that these sorts of social problems are a result of hopelessness and despair brought on by powerlessness. Being overwhelmed in their own land, seeing no hope, losing their traditions and cultures. Now, take a look at Scotland and tell me you don't see any parallels. |
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| Mctosh45 |
Aventinian wrote.......No, the present-day neo-Socialist politics are failing Scotland - and the SNP has the exact same political position as the Labour Party on virtually everything bar Nationalism and nuclear weapons and power.
Utter claptrap what about the S.N.P. POLICIES OF REDUCING CORPORATE TAXES, REPLACING COUNCIL TAX WITH A LOCAL FAIRER INCOME TAX, CARBON CAPTURE AND PROMOTING TIDAL GENERATION TO NAME BUT FOUR? Sorry for shouting but you are very selective in your assertions
You are in denial and are part of the problem not the solution, your antediluvian thinking is way past it's sell by date. |
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| Aventinian |
Reducing taxes in ways they cannot afford while promising everyone money is not policy in my mind, it's fantasy. The local income tax, while a step in the right direction, is completely missing the opportunity to make something of our local government and its taxation regime and its capping is a symbol of the SNP's control-freakery. To be fair, all of these are complete nothings. They represent nothing different, the exact same ideology and agreement on the vast majority of issues. |
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| George |
Yes, you have been, your stats are at least 3 years old. I quote this paragraph from the latest report on life expectancy in the U.K., published on 21 November 2006:
The report can be downloaded by clicking this link: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk=8841 and selecting "Life expectancy at birth Press Release November 2006 (Pdf)" Damning reading........and no, deep fried mars bars and chibbing are not the underlying reasons for this sorry state of affairs. The Herald letter that began this thread should be emailed to every Scottish MP and MSP!! |
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| Aventinian |
I'm sure the dear old Glaswegians feel so oppressed getting forty days shy of what those damned English have!
Really? They seem very significant reasons to me. The NHS if anything is better up here than in England, the difference is down to personal choice. If people choose to be greedy alcoholic smokers then they choose an increased likelihood of an early grave. My mother didn't make me eat my greens when I was young for nothing, you know. |
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| scotnat |
In the absence of fact, attack the writer. I see what you're doing. As the writer made one mistake (in relation to average age) you think ou can call him a liar. Well, have a look over your previous writings. You are a liar (see what I did there?) |
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| Aventinian |
Yes, attack the writer when he's proven to be a dodgy source. Equally I don't trust things the Flat Earth Society say, or those religious nuts you find in America. If someone opens his writings with a demonstration of complete ignorance, then I think it's the natural and logical response to tell him where to go. He made one mistake. In his first paragraph (which was all I could really be bothered checking), which was glaring. He either didn't research his article at all, or else he lied. In either case, he has made himself a reputation as a peddler of falsehoods, and I don't have the time or inclination to read his writings when I cannot trust that the content has some basis in fact.
No I am not. As far as my assertions go, I base very little on evidence and figures and where I do I clearly make some attempt to make sure my figures are correct. |
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