| Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites. |
| azzuri |
Minister proposes a redesign for the union flag...Minister proposes a redesign for the union flag...
See the full story by Clicking Here . Eh? Are they off their rocker? By trying to 'redesign' Britain and everything associated with it, they only put another nail in the coffin. They'll have some space to add the Welsh bit when they have to take out the Saltire... 
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| SLG |
I think it was a Welsh Labour MP who suggested it. Trying desperately to persuade his constituents that it should mean something to them to be part of Britain, and that it means something to Britain to have Wales as part of it. | ||||||||||||
| doodells |
Im all for a red dragon on top of the butcher's apron. But not sure how much it would benefit Wales as the UK army commence battle in some far away land. | ||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
I don't think anyone's suggesting it's going to make anyone's country not mean anything to them simply because of a very obviously justified failing of their flag. It's rather like pretending that a Muslim couldn't feel attached to Britain because its flag is full of Christian symbolism. Realistically, the only people this annoys are the worst sort of Welsh Nats. You could change the UK flag to the Welsh dragon and they'd still be Nationalists, so what's the point?
Ah, so that answers a question. It takes exactly three hours and thirty-two minutes for a post about the Union Jack on a moderately busy Scottish nationalist forum to produce bigoted bile. |
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| agentmancuso |
It's a completely pathetic idea, even by Labour standards. But then she is the "Minister for Culture" 
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| SLG |
I would actually suggest that yes, I imagine that those of non-Christian heritage probably do find flags based on a Christian symbol difficult to associate themselves with.
I think it will actually annoy some Welsh nats of all levels. That includes the Labour voting Welsh nats who are key swing voters that PC will try to win over. |
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| doodells |
Bigoted bile? Where? Sorry if I offended you but I think in the context of the point I was trying to make, it's a suitable name for the flag. People all over the world refer to the UK's union flag as a butcher's apron and it is not completely unjustified. Could probably refer to any countries flag as a butchers apron depending on their military past. |
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| Aventinian |
Can't say I've ever heard any complaints. Most countries probably have some sort of religious symbolism on their flags at the end of the day. Are you suggesting we should change the Union Jack and the Scottish flag to remove such religious imagery?
I'd hope they'd be a bit more mature.
I can't imagine there could have been any other intention.
No they don't.
Yes, you could insofar as every country has had its fair share of 'butchers' and murderers. However you have actually chosen to do it for one specific flag and in that demonstrated nothing short of bigotry towards the British nation. |
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| doodells |
Firstly a definition of bigotry from dictionary.com: 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. I dont think what I said constitutes bigotry. If you take offence to it, I am sorry for not thinking it possible for someone to be so naive. Whilst I am aware that wikipedia is not an infallible source, it says the following on the butchers apron: "In some countries, including Ireland and Scotland, the Union flag is occasionally referred to as the Butcher's Apron, because of its perceived association with the killing of civilian populations by English, and later British, forces." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag Of course the UK army have done a lot of good, but at the same time they have done a great deal of immoral things over the centuries. Its a pity if you cant realise that. Im also represented by the flag, are you suggesting am being bigoted towards myself? I wonder if thats possible? No seriously, do you think it is? |
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| Aventinian |
It most certainly does. It's nothing short of prejudice. If you were categorising a race of people as 'butchers' then you'd quite rightly be castigated as a racist; a bigot would be the correct equivalent term for applying it instead to a nation of people.
'Occasionally'... 'in Scotland and Ireland'. It is not 'people all over the world' - it's a few mindless bigots in a couple of small spots on the Globe.
What? Just like every army that's ever existed? As you're likely aware, I am very much anti-statism. I fully acknowledge that the state is a horrible entity. It doesn't mean I categorise it by some small action, or indeed transfer the nation to the state, just to suit my prejudices.
No, to the British nation. Which you evidently don't see yourself as part of. |
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| SLG |
You're putting on a bit of a pantomime show here are you not Av? 
I always thought that the Butchers Apron was a reference to the Butcher of Cumberland and it was just a nickname that stuck. As for who it offends (other than perhaps the Duke of Cumberland's descendents), it the flag is of the UK - whether someone feels part of the 'British nation' or not, if they are a UK citizen, then it is the flag that represents them. |
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| doodells |
Just because I am critical of the UK army doesn't make me any less of a citizen than someone who has union jack bedsheets and boxer shorts (or knickers for females just so you can't call me sexist as well )
And again, the reason I said that it could be used to desribe any nations flag was to express exactly that every army that has ever existed has been wrong in some sense depending on which god you support (other than perhaps the Swiss Army who just seem to make knives), anyway I still don't think I can be a bigot for criticising my flag. Maybe if Scotland was independent I could be a bigot for saying it, but even then it would depend a lot on what period I was refering to when the butchering took place, because I am very aware of the fact that Scots have particiapted (disproportionately) in much of the butchering. |
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| SLG |
I've not heard complaints either, but I don't generally have these sorts of conversations with strongly religious non-Christians. I would just assume that it's logical that if you are deeply religious and take your religious symbols seriously, then you wouldn't want to be represented by a symbol you considered to represent a false god.
Well, I'm in too minds on the matter. In principle, I'm not particularly happy in being represented by such an overtly religious symbol. But at the end of the day, it's the historical flag of Scotland and I feel that should be respected and as a secular state, the religious significance is diluted to an extent where it is often forgotten. |
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| Aventinian |
Tis the season...
Perhaps there's an element of that, although of course Cumberland would've fought under a quite different Union Jack. It also strikes me as a rather odd thing to associate with the Government side exclusively considering it was a flag of Jacobean construction. Anyway, I don't think it makes much of a difference. It's rather akin to referring to a Bishop's mitre as the Paedophile's Crown or something similar. To associate an entire national flag with one person is nothing short of ludicrous and simply an excuse for bigotry.
I don't believe that at all. It is the flag used by the state, it is the flag that would be hoisted if you won a medal at the Olympics - that doesn't mean you have to accept it as your own or indeed representing you. I recall Peter Dow (ah, the memories) having an enormous rant about a fellow he saw burning a Union Jack on Calton Hill at a Socialist rally. I wonder if that particular Scotsman thought himself 'represented' by the flag...?
I didn't refer to the UK. Of course you are no less a citizen, but you do not have to be part of the British nation to be a British citizen, as this board demonstrates ably.
Do you consider yourself British? Is this 'Butcher's Apron' your flag? Are you a butcher, or associated with people who butcher? |
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| Aventinian |
I would probably take the view that it is, as you go on to mention, a matter of history and tradition. It's rather like the flag of Ireland - an Orange strand to represent Protestants, and a green one to represent Roman Catholics. Within the Irish state itself, that is becoming a ridiculous anachronism - it is a conflict long since disappeared in that country, but I imagine it will remain on the flag for decades to come.
Agreed in part. However the obvious point to raise is that we are not a secular state. We are an unashamedly Protestant Christian state with an established national church, a duty on our monarch to uphold the rights of the relevant churches, a bar on any 'wicked Papist' becoming our head of state and an education system which, save for those who consciously opt out, indoctrinates our children. We are certainly no Saudi Arabia, but we're definitely not secularists. |
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| Holebender |
If I draw a rectangle and draw two straight lines to divide it into quarters is that a religious symbol or a geometric pattern?
They may have originated as religious symbols but they don't have to continue as such. |
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| Aventinian |
It matters not, it is the intent which is significant. If I was to drop two bands of white cloth on an azure background, would I have created a flag?
Things don't simply change their meanings and the connotations attached to them. Particularly when you call them 'St Andrew's Crosses' and wave them on a Saint's feast day. |
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| elidir |
This is indeed an odd subject. To my knowledge there is no serious or organised pressure from within Wales for our flag to be represented on the butcher's apron partly because we have our own perfectly acceptable flag , which predates the apron by some centuries, and because of the assosciation the apron has with colonialism, oppression and empire; english royalty and privalidge, football hooliganism, the NF and the BNP. As well as the apron traditionally suffering from the confusion of that ever present english/british conflation.
I categorically do not want Welsh representation of any kind on the apron (see above) as I expect us to be independant within my lifetime. And this is the real issue: This is an attempt by labour to appeal to a growing Welsh national conciousness amongst its own traditional supporters which it is desperate to pander to without actually giving any real measure of national recognition. And Doodells mate you are quite correct (however dissapointed I am by your wanting Wales to be on the apron); calling it the butchers apron is not racist, bigoted or intolerant and has a long and justified history. Only the worst type of "british" nationalist could dissagree. |
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| Cymro |
It was Ian Lucas the MP for Wrexham that suggested this. He's an idiot and his idea is idiotic.
If they really want to put the Red Dragon near the Union Flag then my suggestion was that we place the Red Dragon so that it looks like it's setting fire to the Union Flag with it's fire breath. Lucas has been making comments recently again further devolution, against the Welsh language and against the coalition between Labour a Plaid Cymru. This is merely him trying to grab attention for himself and divert attention back to the 'glories' of the Union. People I've spoken to in his constituency, many of who'm are Labour supporters and Unionists are embarrassed by Lucas' latest idea. I'm sure he's glad for the support of Aventian though! |
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| cornubian |
If the black of the St Davids cross was selected it could be used to represent the Cornish as well. | ||||||||||||
| Holebender |
You can have the space made available when the Saltire is removed. | ||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
Well, since this post was clearly crafted to simply offend, I suppose it demonstrates well exactly the sort of people who would hold such vile opinions and the rather mindless nature of the average racist. Needless to say, trying to cause offence to me over the internet is rather like trying to punch someone in an adjacent room. |
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| elidir |
Furthermore, british nation is an oxymoron as there is no such thing as a british nation. The apron is a "union" of three flags all of which represent different and individual nations. And I repeat all that I wrote in the first posting. I will consider any legitimate response that deals with the issues raised sensibly and disregard all non-relevant posts .
I must remind contributors, however, that this is a public forum and accusations of racism as any (and repeated slander, where applicable) is still subject to the law; if anyone feels strongly enough to make a formal complaint to the administrators of these boards concerning my contribution then I'm sure there will be a robust response. And for those of thin skin who are so self important, solopsistic and who are so paranoid that they beleive people specifically targeted them rather than their ridicilous opinions then they should reconsider being a contributor on a public board where differences of opinion will inevitably occur and where their opinion does not decide content or reasonableness. The apron has been assosciated with possibly more intolerance, racism and bigotry (not to mention death) than any other flag in history with the possible exception of the stars and stripes. If this is news to any reader of this post then I beleive thay should return to school and reread their history books - and properly this time. I further challenge any and all contributors to disabuse me of my assertion as expressed above! One last note: No one should attempt to control a topic on any board by making false accusations of intolerance, bigotry, racism etc. towards anyone as a strategy of censorship. There are rules to public debate and if ones argument is poor then calling other people racist is not a legitimate derfence especially because their counter-arguments are unsustainable. I hope this strategy has been noted by the board administrators; actually you know it is quite unacceptable, and: I DRAW THE MODERATORS ATTENTION TO THIS NASTY STRATEGY I will not contribute to this topic again or at least until the moderators have responded. |
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| Aventinian |
Oh, I'm not going to get into a debate about it. You're quite clearly a racist intent on posting as offensive a tirade as possible, and there's not really much to say to that.
Moreover, your rather daft pseudolegalese which you have spouted elsewhere is certainly not bothering anyone - look up 'slander' in a basic legal textbook, grow up and come back when you're a civilised individual with civilised ideas. |
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| Cymro |
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| Aventinian |
Not in the least, I just find bigots, racists and morons distasteful - and will happily inform them of this fact.
I'm afraid that's absolute, unashamed nonsense. Out of curiosity, what do you actually think a nation is? References - well, a quick Googling here demonstrates 72,000 references for a "British nation" compared to just 9.700 for a Welsh nation. I'm not suggesting any mutual exclusivity here, merely that the obvious stance is far better cited than your rather fanciful conclusions.
've been participating on a Nationalist forum for months now, and as far as I recall I've only called one person a racist. Shockingly, this wasn't because of a Nationalist political stance, but rather because the person concerned obviously is a racist and a bigot. |
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| Cymro |
As far as I'm concerned the UK as a state is made up of 4 Nations or Countries. We're all part of one state. That is my definition and what I follow. For me, my nationalism states I am for an Independent Wales. Not one based on race but one based on the country.
I've read Elidir's comments and can't see racism in it. He doesn't like the Union and it's scornful of the flag. That isn't racism though. Had he claimed he hated the English or hated those who aren't Welsh or claimed all 'nations' of the UK should stick to their own territory and no foereigners or difference races should in those areas then he'd be racist and I'm be amongst the first to criticise him on such a racistattitude. Well done you on googling British Nation and Welsh Nation. Not going to win you any research awards though is it? On a completly basic level the fact that over 60 Million people live in the UK and only 3 million of those live in Wales and even less of those would regard themselves as Welsh Nats doesn't make it that shocking a result really does it? For my the idea of a British Nation is as artificial and bollocks filled as the sense of a White Nation spouted by bigots. Neither of them exist and I for one am glad to see that continue. |
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| William_Cleland |
Wales is actually technically part of England. Wales needs to get a separate legal system before it will be fully on a par with Scotland and Northern Ireland. | ||||||||||||
| doodells |
Cheers. About the dragon, I meant that purely from an artistic perspective, otherwise I don't think it is really necessary for Wales to be included on the flag. It sounds like this will just back-fire like most other pro UK/Britishness gimmicks.
OK, here we are using the word 'butcher' in a metaphorical sense. My grandfather was a butcher in the food industry, however he also served in the armed forces. While serving he may well have butched some people while under orders from a higher ranking officer, I'm not sure. Of course the butcher's apron is my flag, for the time being. I hold a passport for the UK of GB and NI, I am British and Scottish and a citizen of the UK in no particular order, and I guess they would hoist that flag if I won a medal at the Olympics and play God Save the Queen. But I'm free to disagree. I don't think the sun shines from the arse of Great Britain or Scotland (I obviously think Scotland would be better off independent) or any country for that matter, and for those reasons I think it is reasonable (or even healthy criticism) for me to call the Union Jack: The Butcher's Apron. OK, I admit, calling the flag the BA may be seen as a bit silly in this day and age because the phrase was coined many years ago, and for different reasons, however, for me personally, in my own opinion, which everyone is free to challenge (without calling me a bigot for no apparent reason), I don't think there is a better way to describe what has happened for example to the young Iraqi soldiers on the front line at the beginning of the war in Iraq. They hadn't a chance, you know that Ave. Modern day butchering. Maybe we could start a new thread for a name for a modern-day equivalent of 'The Butcher's Apron'? |
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| Cymro |
No it isn't. Come and join us in 2007. It WAS technically a part of England since the acts of Union in 1537 and 1542 but since then it's officially been accepted that the UK compirses 4 Countries - England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The Government of Wales Acts 1999 and 2006 reafirm this. We do need a seperate Legal System but that doesn't change the official status of Wales compared to Scotland, England or Northern Ireland. |
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| RadgeJougal |
Too little too late.
Cymru am byth |
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| William_Cleland |
The Government of Wales Act is part of English Law ergo you are still technically part of England. You may not like that but that is the reality of the situation in legal terms. The UK has three separate state legal jurisdictions not four. Until that changes there is no compelling argument for playing around with the Union Flag as the Union involved is legally based on three components not four. | ||||||||||||
| RadgeJougal |
Aye, and who decides that?
The Welsh have the sovereign right to decide who they are, not the English. No matter what the English say - Wales is not part of their country. England sometimes claims Scotland as part of itself. Until we get full independence, we more or less are. |
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| Cymro |
No, you are still wrong. We have the same legal system but that's you taking one (all be it hugley important) bit and using it to link the whole bit. It was 1967 that the Act incoporating Wales into England was finally repealed. Now we share the same legal system (England and Wales) as opposed to it being English Law of which Wales is a part. It's a legal entity as opposed to a political entity. Wales like England, Scotland and Northern Ireland is recognised as a country (constituent country) that makes up the UK. Wales has stopped being a part of England for even longer than the 1999 Government of Wales Act. Of course we have more to go and I'd love to see a seperate legal entitnty develop. However that does not by any stretch of the imagination make us a part of England, not even officially. You are of course right to give it importance. Dafydd Ellis Thomas, the Presiding Officer for the Assembly argued recently that the fact that North Wales is now regarded as a legal circuit itself (it used to be North Wales and Chester) is one of the most important changes we've seen in Wales in terms of Nation Building. It was also under publicised because of the dominance of the Unionist Parites in Wales. |
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| Holebender |
Tell me, Cymro, is there any such thing as a specifically Welsh law or a specifically English law? I ask because every time some Tory boy starts spouting off about English votes for English laws in Westminster I always wonder what the Welsh have to say about it. | ||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
You're wrong on the Wales being part of England thing, I'm afraid. The legal basis for this situation, formerly, was the Wales and Berwick Act 1746. This still, for the avoidance of doubt, applies to Berwick - as such, there is a legislative presumption that all Acts which extent to England apply to Berwick-upon-Tweed. This was first over-ridden, at least to the extent it applied to Wales, by the Welsh Language Act 1967. This has been affirmed in subsequent Local Government and Interpretation Acts. As such, when anything refers to 'England' it will be legally presumed to apply to England alone, not Wales (but still Berwick!). They do have a shared legal jurisdiction (called "England and Wales", of course) but that doesn't really change the situation.
No.
Apologies for interjecting to a post that was not addressed to me, but I thought I might as well answer it: there are plenty of English laws, being Acts of Parliament that apply exclusively to England. If it applies to both England and Wales, a section will say that "This Act extends to England and Wales only", otherwise it will say "This Act extends to England only." Admittedly, more Acts apply to Englandandwales than England alone. Presumably as the Welsh Assembly gains greater powers, that'll change somewhat. |
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| Aventinian |
That's not a definition, that's applying a definition you clearly have kept within your head. One which I would like to hear, as it seems to illogical and contrary to common sense that it's really worth stating.
Let's put it this way: if I was to refer to some African nation's flag as "the cannibal's napkin" or something similarly vulgar, would I be labelled a racist? Of course, and quite rightly so.
It certainly proves usage. There's not really a lot more to say. I suppose we could consult a dictionary: "noun a large body of people [tick] united by common descent [as close as anywhere else, so tick], culture [tick], or language [tick], inhabiting a particular state [tick] or territory." (the OED) Does that help?
So are you basically saying that the label of nationhood depends solely on political persuasion?
A white cultural nation probably can be said to exist. However I don't know anyone describing themselves as having a 'white identity', yet the vast majority of British people have a British identity. The problem with the idea of a 'white nation' is that it is exclusive to skin colour, and as such is a categorisation of ethnicity rather than nationhood. All nations are artificial, incidentally. Personally, I think the label of 'nation' is entirely useless and nothing short of cultural snobbery. |
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| agentmancuso |
I can't see much racism either. Dribbling yes, racism no.
All nations are artificial. |
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| William_Cleland |
I actually think Wales should have its own legal system determined primarily in Cardiff rather than London but we can't simply overlook the fact that it doesn't because it is very important where the WLQ is concerned. By opting not to have Welsh and Scottish self-government on a level footing, Labour were trying to use the widely perceived equal national status of Wales to obscure the fact that a truly momentous change had occurred within the governance of the UK in a Scottish context (i.e. a very wide range of primary legislative powers coming under the control of a Scottish parliament in Edinburgh for the first time in almost 300 years) by extending the Welsh style of devolution (minus the Welsh Language aspects) to the regions of England so Scotland could still be treated as if it still had its accustomed status within Labour's British centralist ideology of being on a par with the English regions. This strategy initially worked with London but came to a grinding halt when they tried it in the Northeast of England:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_referendum,_1998 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nort...nd_devolution_referendums%2C_2004 Beyond that Labour's ploy was only viable as long as the Scottish electorate played along by always voting for a Labour/Lib Dem coalition and make no mistake that was the calculation made at the time. The strategy is now in tatters, however, now that the SNP have actually won an election in a Holyrood context. Hence the near panic from Brown and Blair in the aftermath and the initial delusional attempts to act as if nothing had actually happened by trying to just ignore Alex Salmond. |
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| Cymro |
Not going to cut and paste all your points. Regarding my definition of nation and nationalism, to be honest having read your posts on here I wouldn't be suprised if you accepted my definition. At the end of the day for certain people it helps them if they can associate nationalism and nation with racism. I can only say it as I see it. I don't think nation or nationalism has to have racist attitudes though obviously it can lead to it. I stand for Welsh Independence as far as I'm concerened that makes me a Nat. End of. Call it snobbery if you like but I know I don't define myself as better than other nations. So not snobbery. Easy to throw words at something Avetinan, harder to justify it. |
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| RadgeJougal |
Of course there are. If only for the Welsh language, and the Church. The Church in Wales is disestablished, whereas the Church of England's very much established. |
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| RadgeJougal |
Actually yes. Tell me what it says outside the British Embassy in Beijing, Riyadh, Tokyo etc. Or rather, translate the bit which isn't in English. It says English embassy in Chinese, Arabic, Japanese, not British, because these languages have no such word. |
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| Aventinian |
Will we ever know? Will you ever tell us all what it is?
Well, I'm glad you got that off your chest, but I don't really see what it has to do with anything...
True, you just deny the ones that you dislike exist! |
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| Aventinian |
So... then it is their word for British, if indeed it is used for Britain. The fact that it is the same word as they use for English is neither here nor there. As I understand it, the Irish Gaelic word for Wales is effective their translation of Britannia Minor. Are Scotland, England and Northern Ireland part of Wales? Moreover, I really don't think anything, including my nationality, or the status of my country, hinges on what foreigners decide to call us... |
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| agentmancuso |
You'll forgive me pointing out the bleeding obvious, but from the fact that there is no word for 'British' in Chinese one cannot deduce that 'England' claims anything. One can only deduce that, er, some languages have no word for British. Which, as you knew that already, can't be much of a reward for your hard work figuring it all out... Arriving at conclusions which restate your original premise is worthy of primary school children. Now, away and tidy your room. |
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| Aventinian |
I'm fairly convinced that if a word is used by the population and the state in such countries' native tongues for Britain, then they obviously do have a word for Britain.
A rose by any other name, eh? |
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| Holebender |
To state the bleeding obvious, where do you think the Chinese, Arabs, etc. got the notion that the word for "Britain" is synonymous with the word for "England"? Do you suppose they decided that for themselves when they first encountered the concept of "Britain" and decided to make up a word for it, or do you, perhaps, think it may have something to do with the way the concept was presented to them?
Even languages which have different words for "England" and "Britain" seem to employ the "England" word when the "Britain" word would be more appropriate. Why do you suppose they do that? |
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| Aventinian |
I imagine it's because England is the largest party. I've also noticed certain countries use words similar to English or British to mean white or European when of course the term has no racial connotations at all. |
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| Holebender |
Which countries would those be? Do you have any references? | ||||||||||||
| Cymro |
I've already tiold you my definition of Nationalism Avetinan. It's also the definition I believe Plaid Cymru follow. Hence why I am a Plaid member. Nationalism isn't one definition and the same goes for Nation. Differences are clear to see. Look at the US for example. A state it clearly is, but the term 'nation' tends to be used when talking about the Native American tribes that live in what we now call the US and Canada. To me Wales is a nation, and hopefully will become a state. That though isn't the same as me saying it should only incluce people of a certain nationality or race. I don't deny that "Cultural Snobbery" exists, but it doesn't exist in me. Essentially Cultural Snobbery and Racism are verging on the same things - seeing your own culture, race or nation and being superior to another. This is something I am proud not to be. |
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| RadgeJougal |
"England" is used to refer to "Britain" in American English, frequently. However, the difference between American English, French and German on the one hand, and Arabic, Japanese, Chinese, Hindi etc on the other is that American English actually has a word for Britain. The other lot doesn't, and the British state's translators don't object. Even the Dutch make an effort to say "The Netherlands" instead of "Holland" in every language.
See above. The British State doesn't make pretend abroad. Glad to know you like living in "Ying-Kwok/Inggris" etc
And as a European, you won't mind me referring to you as German (EU) or Russian (Europe) then, I take it.
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| agentmancuso |
Do you think that the arrival of Colonel Blimp carrying an English Embassy door-plate was the first the Chinese ever heard of these islands?
Because they can't tell the difference between 'England' and 'Britain' any more than you can tell the difference between the many -and vastly more materially significant - subdivisions of 'Chinese'? |
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| Aventinian |
Well, that's just wrong. Presumably as referring to a Scottish person as a Scot when they may be no such thing is wrong...
I'm sorry, but does it say "English Embassy" outside our little pile in Washington DC now?
Not really...
I really don't care what other people label my country, its far-lost etymology is a matter of passive interest for linguists, not for me. Just as I imagine most Gaels don't care that their word for Scotland - Alba - descended from the word for Britain which referred to the white cliffs of Dover.
Like I say, I wouldn't give a damn what attributes a foreigner chose to see in me. If it was being like the Russians or the Germans, then fair enough. |
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| Aventinian |
Have you? Care to refresh my memory by linking me to the relevant post? I'm afraid a cursory look of my own has yielded no results.
Perhaps not, many things have multiple meanings.
Indeed, they are cultural communities; so are America and Canada for that matter. Just like Britain...
If you're claiming to have a definition, then it shouldn't be a subjective matter as to what 'to you' is a nation, but rather what fits the definition. I have not argued that Wales is a nation. I am arguing that there is no way you can say Wales is and Britain isn't without adopting a deliberately exclusionary definition of 'nation'. |
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| Aventinian |
A quick Googling reveals Wikipedia to support me (not that it has a great deal of value) with the following: "Angrez is of Arabic or Persian origin and is also sometimes used to refer to British people. It derives from the French Anglais. Among South Asians, Angrez often has the more general meaning of "white foreigner" |
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| RadgeJougal |
"Because they can't tell the difference between 'England' and 'Britain' any more than you can tell the difference between the many -and vastly more materially significant - subdivisions of 'Chinese'?"
Erm, yes I am aware of these. A few weeks ago, I was listening to a Uighur woman on what the Chinese are doing to her people. Unfortunately, the British Government is aware of the "difference between 'England' and 'Britain'". It's the British government's employees, that translate the signs into the local language, and it's the British government's diplomats that go round telling folk that Scotland is English/part of England. I remember a highly trumpeted piece of marketing directed at east Asian investors, by the British Government or one of their Quangos, which did exactly this. Of course, not in English, the Scots might actually object to that... "Well, that's just wrong." That's what you think. So why is it right in another language, and by the British State? "I'm sorry, but does it say "English Embassy" outside our little pile in Washington DC now? " No it doesn't. But it does outside the little piles in Tokyo, Beijing etc "its far-lost etymology is a matter of passive interest for linguists" Ying-Kwok isn't a matter of "passive interest". "Kwok" means "country", and "Ying" means English. "Like I say, I wouldn't give a damn what attributes a foreigner chose to see in me. " Even when your taxes pay for British diplomats to describe you as English? |
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| agentmancuso |
I didn't ask if you were aware of them, I asked if you could tell the difference between them. The sign on the Chinese Embassy in London no doubt says 'Chinese' on it, despite the fact that there are numerous linguistic, ethnic and cultural groups that make up our over-simplistic - but perfectly workable- idea of 'Chinese'. Could you tell these apart in any meaningful way? I doubt it. Likewise, the average 'Chinese' person would have enormous difference telling 'British' apart from 'English', largely because the differences between 'British' and 'English' are, when looking from a global perspective, utterly minute and of no practical significance.
It is not the job of the diplomatic service to pander to the obsessions of the identity-challenged. It would seem sensible to put a sign on the door that people could understand with the least trouble. So what if the sign does say 'English Embassy'? As long as the folk inside do their job, then who cares?
Doesn't it make sense to produce marketing which will attract people, rather than lecture them in the minutiae of nationalist obsessiveness? If 'the Scots' object to that, then 'the Scots' are pathetic. |
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| Aventinian |
Quite the opposite in fact. A great number of British Embassy websites go out of their way to explain the difference between the UK/Great Britain/England etc. They cannot, however, invent words in the local languages of the country they are in.
Aye, 'cause there's never been a Scotsman that can speak Chinese...
Because that is the word in the other language for Britain. In that context, it clearly means Britain.
They don't describe me as anything, they translate what I am as best they can. |
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| RadgeJougal |
Okay answer me these questions three...
1) Do you consider yourself Scottish, and to be based in Scotland? 2) Do you consider yourself British, and to be based in Britain? 3) Do you consider British to mean English and Britain to mean England? "they translate what I am as best they can." But it isn't actually a translation... "Quite the opposite in fact. A great number of British Embassy websites go out of their way to explain the difference between the UK/Great Britain/England etc." Only in the English language sections, most of the time... "'cause there's never been a Scotsman that can speak Chinese... " I've known many that did, but there are far fewer to complain. "It is not the job of the diplomatic service to pander to the obsessions of the identity-challenged. " I'm not identity challenged. I'm Scottish, not English, nor Welsh nor Nigerian... |
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| Aventinian |
Yes to the first two, no to the third: however I believe in the case of the third, it is a fairly good approximation from a Chinese perspective. But I think you're missing the point. These countries DO have a word for Britain, it just happens to be based on the word 'English' - so what? Most languages have odd ways of categorising other countries. English speakers say Welsh, which of course derives from the old English for foreigner. So what?
Yes it is.
Most of their pages seem to be directly translated.
May I suggest that's because they've got a bit of common sense? |
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| agentmancuso |
Yes, yes, and sometimes.
If you weren't identity-challenged you wouldn't feel the need to repeatedly stress how sure you were about your identity, or how much it matters, or how wicked the Chinese must be to confuse you with an Englishman. And they do, you know. To most Chinese you couldn't be any more English if you wore a bowler hat and a Union Jack waistcoat, and spent your day playing croquet and drinking tea on the lawn. Which is rather amusing. |
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| RadgeJougal |
Actually Mancuso, it's not me that has the identity problem, it's the British state. The point about the Welsh is a case in point. I know what I am, but I resent being misrepresented. My identity isn't in question to me personally.
But we're not talking about the Chinese, only the British state which promotes that view in China with my bloody money! I don't think even you consider England and Britain to be one and the same, but that's what many of our embassies, trade missions etc are saying. "May I suggest that's because they've got a bit of common sense?" No you "mayn't", because it's not common sense. Even the brutal Soviet Union - in official documents at least - had the decency to put up the equivalent of "USSR" outside its embassy in every local language, not "Russia". "however I believe in the case of the third, it is a fairly good approximation from a Chinese perspective. " Especially when our taxes pay for it. "Yes it is. " "Frau"/"Femme"/"Boireannach" (Woman) are not translations of "human", even though most humans are female. Likewise, "England" in any other language is "England", not "Britain". |
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| agentmancuso |
The need to persistently assert your identity is a problem in itself.
No, I don't consider them the same. But the difference is minimal froma global perspective. I guess the Chinese just don't care to be honest. And why should they?
That's the weirdest 'likewise' I ever did see. |
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| Aventinian |
They they're not. Not any more than the army are saying a watchtower is built out of watches... Same word, so what?
Which is what the UK are doing. Using the local word for the UK. "however I believe in the case of the third, it is a fairly good approximation from a Chinese perspective. "
Yes, and Britain in any language is still Britain, even if it's the same word or based on the word for English. |
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| Dave Coull |
(Pity they cut out the bit in my letter about "a so-called 'Angus Flag'
which was in reality drawn on the back of a fag-packet the day before yesterday".) Evening Telegraph, Tuesday, 4th December 2007. Angus flag : people should be consulted In response to pressure from Welsh Labour MPs for the Welsh dragon to be included in the Union Flag, Margaret Hodge the Minister of Culture told the Commons, “I can assure all MPs that the issue of the design of the flag will be considered.” She went on, “Thinking of a new design that would meet everyone’s aspiration would be a great challenge.” If the Government can admit, 200 years after the last re-design of the Union Flag, that the present flag is not ideal, then surely Angus Councillors ought to be prepared to listen to complaints from the folk of Angus. They ought to be prepared to issue an open invitation to design a new Angus flag and be prepared to consult the people about which of the proposed designs they like. One thing is certain — no new design could possible be as unacceptable as this one which includes the coat-of-arms of Gilbert De Umfreville, Baron of Prudhoe, who was given the conquered territory of Angus by King Edward the First, “Hammer Of the Scots”. Dave Coull |
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| Blackleaf |
The Welsh dragon IS on the Union Flag. But because it's right in the centre you can't see it as it's red. | ||||||||||||
| RadgeJougal |
Alright, I'll take your word for it.
"That's the weirdest 'likewise' I ever did see." Likewise, I take it you can't chase the dragon on the union jack either. "But the difference is minimal froma global perspective." We all know why that is, but you wouldn't like to admit it to yourself. "I guess the Chinese just don't care to be honest. And why should they?" They don't have to, but people, buildings, signs etc paid for by Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish taxes who deliberately mislead Chinese people should be a concern to Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish. "Yes, and Britain in any language is still Britain, even if it's the same word or based on the word for English." And 2 + 2 = 5 I'm not the one who has to do mental gymnastics to rationalise this anomaly. It doesn't fit. The word for "black" is not "white". "Using the local word for the UK." There isn't a local word for the UK. Remember? |
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| agentmancuso |
My guess would be that it's because the differences are tiny. So tiny that people will go to extraordinary lengths to make new ones up, like pretending to speak a different language. Do you have a better option?
Ah yes, diplomats out to cunningly deceive the Chinese en masse. The poor ignorant Oriental fools have never even heard of Oor Wullie.
Isn't it the same as the word for 'England'? |
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| RadgeJougal |
"Isn't it the same as the word for 'England'?"
The word for England is the word for England. Just like the word "England" is the word for England in English. "So tiny that people will go to extraordinary lengths to make new ones up, like pretending to speak a different language. " Oh, you're still on about the length of a piece of string... "Ah yes, diplomats out to cunningly deceive the Chinese en masse. The poor ignorant Oriental fools have never even heard of Oor Wullie." No, they're not deceiving them, they're telling them something close to the truth. If only they had the guts to admit it here. |
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| agentmancuso |
It's obvious from that utterly stupid statement that you are completely monolingual.
That the differences between Scotland and England are minute to the point of invisibility when viewed from a global perspective? Agreed. |
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| RadgeJougal |
"It's obvious from that utterly stupid statement that you are completely monolingual."
I speak five languages to a decent level. Speak for yourself. Your comments about Scottish Gaelic on the other thread exposed your ignorance of that subject. "That the differences between Scotland and England are minute to the point of invisibility when viewed from a global perspective? Agreed." Scotland is anglicised and is being intentionally anglicised. |
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| agentmancuso |
In which it must at some point have crossed your mind that a single word in one language does not necessarily correspond with a single word in another language: hence there is no linguistic reason whatsoever why the same Chinese word cannot be used to mean 'UK' and 'England'
Really? Who by? |
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| Dave Coull |
Radge Jougal wrote "I speak five languages to a decent level"
Judging by your posts on Our Scotland, in any language, you have quite a struggle trying to string a few coherent words together without using the language of the gutter. I suspect you are including some so-called "languages" which really are dialects in your total of five. If we look at your pseudo-name, "jougal" isn't a Scots word, it is definitely from some obscure dialect. And anyway, there is no proof at all of your claim that you speak five languages fluently, even if we did accept the inclusion of the dialect you use in your pseudo-name. Why should anybody accept the word of some pseud using a pseudo-name? |
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