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| calum |
More evidence on benefits of Gaelic mediumIt's good to see another report providing evidence of the benefits of Gaelic-medium education. Addtional languages generally are good for children's brains and i'd argue that French or Spanish should be taught in the same way.However, Gaelic is OUR language and is all around us. It's an ideal springboard to learn another universal tongue other than English. Nach math gu bheil i againn a-nis, as deidh bliadhnaichean de mhi-run na h-aghaidh. Suas leis a' Ghàidhlig. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8280614.stm |
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| Stevie |
Speaking as a language teacher, I agree absolutely. | ||||||||
| calum |
Mod starts next week. Snore... However, one year on from Falkirk, is there a Gaelic medium unit in the pipeline there yet? | ||||||||
| Rinty |
It isnt my language nor is it the language of where I live. In fact, there are more people in Cumnock whose grandparents spoke spanish as a first language than gaelic. | ||||||||
| Alasdair |
It's the langauge I was denied in my youth. | ||||||||
| Rinty |
I was denied many languages, the schools I attended offered two or maybe three. but there was no barrier in the way of me learning any laguage that I could, if I wanted to.
I think that should Gaelic should be encouraged where people want it, subsidised, supported and strongly backed in the areas where it is/was the original language. To be honest I used to object to my son having to watch postman pat in gaelic whether he wanted to or not at some times on BBC. |
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| Cymro |
A bit pathetic to object to your son 'having to watch' postman pat in Gaelic isn't it? Same mentality behind the parents who object to childrens' tv presenters with one arm from what I can see - not wanting their children to be introduced to something a bit different. Personally regardless of whether you can directly link it to your area or not introducing it to children can only be a good thing even if it's giving them some awareness that indeed, not everyone in Scotland speaks English as a first language and that not all languages are the same. A lady I work with was telling me her son (who is 2) is now learning basic sign language from some children tv programmes, which sounds brilliant to me.
Back to topic, it's great news that items like this are making it into the press. This argument has been used for a fair while down here in Wales and has been one of the key elements in the expansion of Welsh Medium education across the country. In places like Newport, Monmouth, Cardiff as well as North East Wales where people would have once (and still do to a smaller extent to be fair) used the same argument as Rinty regarding no connections to the Welsh language in that specific areas the demand for Welsh medium education is expanding at a hell of a rate causing massive headaches for the Local Authorities as the current Welsh medium provision isn't enough for the demand while English medium schools are operating where the provision far outweighs the demand. |
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| Alasdair |
I had an English teacher in Secondry whose first language was Gaelic, rather irritatingly she wasn't actually allowed to teach it in the school. |
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| calum |
Cumnock is well known for it's Hispanic topography. Gaelic was NEVER spoken there and any Gaels there today must have been parachuted in from Donegal. End of debate. Oh, it's GOOD to be ignorant. | ||||||||
| Fidget |
I would prefer teaching useful/commercial languages first. Anybody with an interest in dead languages can pick them up in their own time. | ||||||||
| Holebender |
Why did I suddenly feel like I was reading a comment on the Scotsman's website just then? How can a language be dead if there are still native speakers? You seem more interested in hastening Gaelic's demise than in actually learning anything at all. |
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| Fidget |
What use is Gaelic in a world of Spanish, French, Mandarin Chinese (business language of the future apparently)? Some big languages of business there. Gaelic for endearment's sake doesn't figure in my idea of schooling. Want to learn it? Do it in your own time. | ||||||||
| Holebender |
I don't think anyone is suggesting compulsory Gaelic lessons, but what a sad state our children would be in if they only ever learned what some official deemed "useful". I don't believe there is a free society on this planet which denigrates and belittles its own culture in the way that some people would have us do. | ||||||||
| Fidget |
I learnt some Latin at school. Use to me? Zilch. I learnt some French at school too. Use to me? Great in comparison to Latin. I can communicate in French. That's a great thing - to be able to communicate with other people in a thriving language. I think I'd be livid if I was sent to school and taught Gaelic over other languages that I might actually be able to use. Gaelic, I suppose, is fine if your sights aren't any higher than your croft, but in today's age, the best possible start is needed, and teaching dead languages is a handicap!! | ||||||||
| Holebender |
There you go with the dead languages again. I have a Higher in Latin and I've often found it useful, even though I couldn't string a single sentence together any more. Wherever I work in the world and whatever language people speak around me I often find common words with the languages I already know, which helps me grasp what is being said.
Try losing some of your arrogance and you might enjoy the rich diversity around you. When a language is lost some of the colour is lost from our world and we are all a little poorer for it. |
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| Fidget |
It is simply my opinion that languages taught in schools ought to be languages that are going to be useful over a broad spectrum. Gaelic isn't one of them, as isn't Latin. | ||||||||
| Holebender |
Well... opinions are like A***holes; everybody has one and they usually stink. | ||||||||
| Cymro |
Latin would almost certainly have been useful to you, it's the basis of many other European languages including French. Learning French would have been easier having grasped some Latin too. It's the same when it comes to Gaelic, for one thing it isn't dead, very much alive, while possibly not well. It's an important element of life in Scotland even if you can't speak it yourself, it's something to be respected and taken care of and allowed to flourish once again. Gaelic hasn't suffered of its own free will but because of massive political and subsequent social pressures which has lead to its perceived inferiority.
Gaelic may not be a global language a la Mandarin, Spanish or English and I don't see anyone argue that Gaelic should replace English. Far from it, it's about bilingualism and multilingualism and the benefits that give communities and individuals. It's all well looking at other languages as what we should aspire towards but that doesn't have to be at the expense of languages like Gaelic, there is a place for both in modern society. Look at other European Countries for example - learning English to a very high standard while also keeping their own indigenous languages and dialects strong and very much alive. Opponents of the Gaelic language will try and set it against global languages in an attempt to show its inferiority but local languages and global languages don't need to be in opposition of eachother, in fact they can easily match up and will do with the right attitude. |
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| Rinty |
You might think it is pathetic but he didnt have an option of english or gaelic at that time of day, so a kids programme, which he found enetertaining was broadcast in a labguage that he didnt understand. While kids a few miles down the road in the area covered by Borders TV could watch it a language they undertood. I cannot see how this is even remotely similar to objecting to disabled presenters.
My son learned sign langauge at an early age, some gaelic words and phrases from a friend at Primary School, French at school and a smattering of other languages due to his own interests. I cannot see how you can take my point about being denied an english version of Padraig Post and make such assumptions.
I am not making an argument for welsh in cardiff though each language and country are different, some countries have more than two langauges. To have gaelic medium education in areas where there are few if any speakers would mean a whole lot of effort diverted from a childs education. I fully support promoting and backing gaelic, I know there are sound arguments for medium education in many areas and in sites in cities as well, I dont object to them where they exist. I just dont see the need to push it on the wrong people or communities though. |
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| Holebender |
I imagine quite a few Gaels object to their kids having to watch Padraig Post (sp?) in English. | ||||||||
| Rinty |
"I imagine quite a few Gaels object to their kids having to watch Padraig Post (sp?) in English."
Precisely why I would have provided a choice, but there will be very few children who could not understand the english version of PP, probably a few of them dont speak english or gaelic. |
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| Stevie |
Kids pick up on info that leaves you and I baffled. | ||||||||
| Cymro |
Indeed I do think it's pathetic and in your case as a person seemingly of open mind and fairness, dissapointing. It's simmilar to objecting to disabled presenters because it's down to ignorance. A child of Postman Pat watching age will be more likely to respond to the sentiments of their parents than sitting there and go "humph, why don't I understand what Pat has just told Jess when my mates living down the road can?" Being made aware that Pat was a clever postman who could speak Gaelic as well as English would have on a basic level been good for your son and any child of that age to learn. On a coldhearted basis, tough that it wasn't in English, we're talking about a few tokenist programmes amongst hours and hours and hours of English language programmes for children.
Which is quite an amazing argument from a person who usually argues for respect and fairness towards other cultures in Scotland and the rest of the UK. What would your response be if I was arguing against the opening of a Mosque in say Cumnock or teaching children about Catholicism and other religions at the local comp as they where forcing or "pushing" things on the wrong communties where Islam or even Catholicism has no roots? A bigot maybe? There is no different between this and your argument, it's seemingly fine to push one of the languages of Scotland to the peripheries in some nimby like argument but it's wrong to do it for others. |
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| Rinty |
I dont think it is down to ignorance. I think it is down to the BBC wanting to be seen to be doing something when in fact they just took an easy option and had the late showing of Pat broadcast in gaelic to all kids in Scotland area rather than in more than one language. My belief is that the BBC could have done more to promote gaelic by comissioning more specific gaelic childrens programming, broadcast to all while offering both versions of Pat, or even spending some time and money in cutting the area of braodcast for the gaelic only broadcast. An urdu and sign version would have been good to. I object to the lack of choice and diversity rather than the opposite, as you are trying to suggest.
I agree, he would only learn that Pat is a clever, bi-lingual postman by having both versions, he didnt get the english version. I agree it was tokenist, so dont see how objecting to it can be seen as being against promotion of gaelic.
Again this is a gross misrepresentaion of my position. I would be against making the teaching of only one religion the only option for all children, especially if it was protrayed as the 'national' religion. As I said, I dont want gaelic pushed to the peripheries, I believe that stronger investment where it is strongest rather than misdirection of funds and expertise would be the best way to promote the language. Instead we wrongly try to shoehorn gaelic where it isnt necessary and pa ourselves in the back that we have gaelic medium education in ayrshire for the first time histpry, that might tick a box but probably wouldnt do the job. As I feel this is getting slightly personal I would like to give you some examples of what I do do in Cumnock to combat your suggestions of what I might do. I organise the annual James Keir Hardie Memorial Lecture which, although I am an atheist, always has an element of religion too, as it reflects JKH's evangelist beliefs. I am on a committe trying to organise an annual event for the local Spanish immigrant community, in Cumnock for over a hundred years, and added to at several points over the years. Despite being an atheist and formerly raised as a catholic, I take part in activties to help preserve and restore covenanting memorials. I also helped found a community committee for asian shopkeepers to get together with community groups and the police to discuss local issues of crime. I have helped and will continue to help promote events for scots language poets and writers and I helped found two local annual events that separate local writers, John Lapraik and George Douglas Brown. Promoting my local cultures, old and new, is sort of my hobby 
I thought that pushing the gaelic PP (with no english subtitles) on an area where very very few children would have known what was being said, was a waste of time and I objected to my son being seen as 'gaelic' because he lives in Scotland. From that you created a monster. I hope the above will help to show that I arrive at my objection to Pat from a very different path than you suggest. |
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| Cymro |
I'm sure the BBC could indeed have done much more, including commissioning more original Gaelic programmes, I have posted a comment saying exactly that on another thread here fairly recently. S4C in Wales has made a fortune in selling the rights to cartoons which where originally made in Welsh, the economic benefits for this as well as the obvious linguistic ones are not easily over exaggerated. However, with regards to choice and diversity, the BBC until very recently didn't have a seperate Gaelic channel so tokenist programmes where forced fit within the 2 main BBC Channels, there is no BBC 3 or 4 Scotland. Children's programmes as a whole tend to be on before school, lunchtime and after school so the time slots available are naturally limited. What do you mean by cutting the area of broadcast? In the geographic sense? If so, how is that offering choice and diversity exactly?
But Gaelic IS one of the national languages of Scotland, it may not be spoken by all people in Scotland, it may or may not even be able to be directly linked in history to all areas, but that doesn't alter what it is. There is no assumption about what your child is, I can see programmes with Sign Languages, I don't think that the BBC therefore think I'm deaf though. On the issue of religion - not one area in Scotland can claim to have Islamic roots, and I'm sure people use that excuse to oppose the construction of a Mosque / Islamic Cultural Centre. Neither is there an assumption just because one is built or services are offered which respect other religious beliefs that everyone is off that faith. Same goes for the Gaelic language. It's about showing Scotland to be exactly what it is - a Multilingual Country, and long may it continue. Complaining that Postman Pat was in Gaelic and not in English isn't doing that.
While it is ofcourse important to strengthen the place of the Gaelic language in its stronger areas, it is equally important to strengthen it in areas where it is and has traditionally been weaker. If a Gaelic Medium Unit has opened in Ayrshire there is clearly a demand for it. What is wrong with satisfying a demand?
Sorry, my intention wasn't to make it personal. Interesting to hear what you get up to but can't see how that sits comfortably with not wanting Gaelic 'pushed' on children in your area. Surely educating children to see that people speak different languages, that people aren't all the same is better than making an enemy of it? It's not about removing Scots or English it's merely about aknowledging the fact that Gaelic is one of the languages of Scotland. |
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| chicmac |
Gaelic was spoken in Ayrshire and Galloway from the 5th century with many attestations to that fact including Dunbar, Buchanan and even English chroniclers confirming it was the common tongue there well into the late middle ages. There are accounts of it still being spoken there in the 18th century e.g. Highland Jacobites on their way south allegedly had littl;e difficulty conversing with the natives of Galloway. 'Cumnock' itself must surely be of gaelic derivation although a couple of possible interpretations come to mind. SW Scotland was almost certainly the last area of the Lowlands to lose Gaelic as a main language. |
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| Rinty |
the 5th century is hardly the best census to derive information for a modern broadcast policy that provides for its public
I wont answer cymru anymore, I fell his personal attack is not just clutching at straws and that development of languages is niot helped by attacking evryone who doesnt agree with you in such a ferocious way. I will continue to support the development of gaelic across scotland and a better prioritising of funding rather than tokenist gaelic versions of english programmes. |
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| Cymro |
Rinty, what personal attacks? I've already made it clear that I have no intention of making it a personal attack against you. It seems that you are the one clutching at straws here not me. I do think you are ingorant of the issues, not untypical of many Old Labourites down here in Wales who also made excuses to stall the development of Welsh medium education. So far despite your best attempts I haven't seen any proof that this isn't the case with you.
I don't need to clutch at straws on this issue to be frank with you about in Rinty. I've got many years of experience both employed and just living in Wales of seeing these exact same excuses why Welsh education/services shouldn't have money spent on in this place and the next, it's a topic I feel strongly enough about to study. If you choose to agree with me, feel free, no skin off my nose but don't hide behind any "clutching at straws" or "oh but I do support Gaelic....." excuse because the second part to that sentence is clearly "....but just not here". As I said, ignorance. If you want to suggest that highlighting your ignorance and in mentioning Cumnock after you refered to your home area is personal then the same accusations could have been made of you on many many topics in the past on this and other messageboards. Though when it's on topics like racism you may choose to call it "knowing what I'm talking about". |
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| calum |
Eh??? Do you have a better one? Typical response from the kind of guy who says 'Gaelic was never spoken here'. Aye, well where's your evidence? |
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| Dave Coull |
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news...le-to-speak-welsh-86908-21762970/
Scots couple battered by thugs for not being able to speak Welsh Oct 21 2009 By Mark McGivern RACIST hoodies were yesterday jailed for attacking a Scots couple - because they couldn't speak Welsh. They demanded the couple - originally from Dunbar, East Lothian, but now living near Pontypridd -talk to them in Welsh. And when they said they couldn't speak the language, the yobs set about them. They punched Jim, 54, then kicked him up to 12 times in the stomach as he lay on the ground - and pushed over Julie, 60, breaking her arm. |
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| Cymro |
Very relevant Dave!  Those stories are usually bollocks though I'm sure people who want to undermine the language will try to use it. Those who know Wales will know that if people went round the Pontypridd area fighting with people who didn't speak Welsh they'd be bloody busy as Welsh speakers are a minority there.
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| Rinty |
calum and cymru, you have the wrong person, I dont know who you are thinking of but your replies dont seem to be aimed at my beliefs or my comments here.
I didnt claim that gaelic was never spoken here. I mentioned that it wasnt my language and that I "used to" object (20 years ago) when the BBC showed a kids programme in gaelic only. I support the report that this thread is about and its cionclusions support the promotion of gaelic language and culture. However, if within that, there is no room for debate, lest I become a heretic then I will leave the debate to others. I am not a bigot. |
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| Cymro |
There is always room for debate Rinty, however spitting your dummy out when people dare disagree with you doesn't usually make for a successful one.
You didn't make it clear that you "used to" - I notice you have edited that part of the post since Friday, so maybe you really accept that you didn't make that clear? You may now claim that you don't think that way, but all I could take from your posts so far was that while you claimed to be supportive your actions spoke a louder different story to your words. If I was coming out with simmilar ill-thought opinions about race would you be sympathetic? |
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| Fidget |
I'm in Wales quite a lot to see friends who live in the Gwynedd area - clynog-y-fwar (excuse spelling). It's a small village and often folk will speak welsh first, then english. There's never been any problem though. Once people realise I don't speak welsh, which is instantaneous really, they just speak to me in english. I've never felt any animosity from anybody over not being able to reply in welsh to them. |
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| Rinty |
"I notice you have edited that part of the post since Friday, so maybe you really accept that you didn't make that clear? "
I read back over the whole thread to see where this warped representation of my position was coming from, I noticed some spelling mistakes and corrected them, I didnt edit the post or the words 'used to'. The reason this is a 'used to' position is that my son is in his 20's and doesnt watch postman pat AND, IMHO, the gaelic only braodcasting of some programmmes is no better catered for. "There is always room for debate Rinty, however spitting your dummy out when people dare disagree with you doesn't usually make for a successful one." I didnt spit the dummy out, I just dont see the point of taking part in a debate where the target is views expressed elsewhere by someone else and me used as the stand-in for the Welsh labour Party or whoevers view was being expressed. "You may now claim that you don't think that way, but all I could take from your posts so far was that while you claimed to be supportive your actions spoke a louder different story to your words. If I was coming out with simmilar ill-thought opinions about race would you be sympathetic? " This is where I am confused Cymru, I dont think you have made it clear what it is you refer to when you say 'think that way' and I cannot see where I made 'ill-thought out' remarks where a race based opinion could be used as an analogy. I just dont get your point. I support the rpiginal reprot and bvelive that gaelic medium education is a good thing where it is practical. I made a point when the priginal poster ssaid that it is 'our' language bt stating that it isnt 'my' langauge. Re broadcasting, I thought it a tokenistic gesture to show PP in gaelic only for lowalnd kids and suggested better ways of supporting the language. As far as it is relevant to this thread then my view is that extending galiec-medium education should be done with care, if we are talking about shoehorning people into it with little or no background in it. By saying this I have been accused of saying that no-one ever spoke gaelic in Ayrshire and attacked for having views 'like' other people whose views are then attacked as mine. I still dont see where the criticism of my position comes from. |
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| calum |
Fair enough Rinty, maybe i and others misunderstood your earlier post. I wouldn't want it forced on you, or anyone.
However, Gaelic Medium and other services including TV should be available to 'Lowlanders' as Gaelic is spoken/used here and IS part of our history too and not just in the distant past - i know of the existence of native Gaelic speakers in Stirlingshire and Lomondside (in Luss in the 1950s according to a bodach i know) within living memory. As to kids and other languages - children will soak up languages before puberty. The more they get the better - the cognitive benefits are huge. |
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| Rinty |
But gaelic medium means making that the first and main language of the school, and all subjects are taught in gaelic. I dont think there would be a lot of benefit in doing this in most of the lowlands, especially just beacuse there were a few native speakers a few decades ago.
I support gaelic medium education where it is appropriate. There might be a case for a primary school perhaps a secondary in Glasgow and possibly elesewhere. But teaching kids in Ayrhisre in a language they are unfamiliar with would be pointless, in my opinion. Better to concentrate the funding where it will work and, instead, teach gaelic in primary schools as a subject not the medium. As for TV I believe BBC Alaba should be made available throughout Scotland on Freeview and the BBC should provide Galeic versions of shows in the areas where it is apporpriate, and through the Online service or red button to the rest of the country. BBC Alba should be funded to make new programmes in gaelic from drama to news and there should be a real affort made to extend the programme of teleG. My opposition to my son not having Postman Pat in English was the described as being the same as a racist, islamophobic or the same as those who discriminate against the disabled (the fact that my son is disabled means I see irony in this thread as well as frustration). So I am wary of discussing this as I dont believe that it is possible to debate the subject in a mature manner on this site. I either agree with those promoting the language completely or I am some sort of nazi-heretic. I hate those kind of conversations. |
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| landg |
postman pat and speaking gaelic. it's really not that important is it? | ||||||||
| Alasdair |
That postman pat might be broadcast in gaelic is of little import, the wider debate however should not be so readily dismissed. | ||||||||
| calum |
Rinty, i'd say kids anywhere in Scotland having Gaelic is worthwhile, with the exception of the Northern Isles where there is/was little or no influence. I know of Gaelic kids in Stirling, Edinburgh, Condorrat and Glasgow who can all understand Gaelic in local placenames and even in local culture to some extent - Beltane for example is a Gaelic word and an auld Gaelic celebration still carried out on Calton (Calltainn - hazel tree) Hill.
Certainly, the cities of Glasgow, Edinburgh and to some extent Stirling have modern Gaelic cultures too with Gaels from the islands and learners. One example is the forthcoming Roc na Gaidhlig in Edinburgh with 4 Gaelic speaking rock/indie/punk bands - 2 from Edinburgh who write and play contemporary new music in Gaelic. On top of all this are the cognitive benefits of another language so different from English. So, lets have more Gaelic punk, Padraig Post, football and shinty on BBC Alba, local Mods, feisean, Gaelic schools etc... |
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| calum |
Some evidence of a lively Gaelic culture in Edinburgh:
http://www.theforest.org.uk/event/roc-na-gaidhlig-2009 |
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